Cutting Techniques Post Bulk
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NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »Following as well. I'm looking to finish my bulk around March, and plan (tentatively) to start Jim Stoppani's 6 Week Shred program, as it seems to have a nice balance of strength/hypertrophy, and should help lose fat while still maintaining/growing muscle.
Sorry, but lose fat while growing muscle doesn't happen too efficiently. It's one or the other. Aside from newb gains, you won't experience much growth. You may seem bigger due to loss of body fat and more muscle being exposed, but muscle growth is hard in a caloric deficit. The program and a slight deficit will help you maintain though2 -
Just started cutting phase lost 3lbs1
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pinggolfer96 wrote: »NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »Following as well. I'm looking to finish my bulk around March, and plan (tentatively) to start Jim Stoppani's 6 Week Shred program, as it seems to have a nice balance of strength/hypertrophy, and should help lose fat while still maintaining/growing muscle.
Sorry, but lose fat while growing muscle doesn't happen too efficiently. It's one or the other. Aside from newb gains, you won't experience much growth. You may seem bigger due to loss of body fat and more muscle being exposed, but muscle growth is hard in a caloric deficit. The program and a slight deficit will help you maintain though
Yeah, I guess I misspoke. I think the theory is that by continuing weight training and not focusing entirely on cardio, you don't run such a high risk of losing (as much) muscle mass. I don't expect to continue to grow so much as just hoping not to lose all my hard work while cutting the fat off.1 -
My approach is normally to take it slow-and-steady:
Knock 200 cals off of maintenance and buckle in for the long haul. The advantage of this approach is you don't need to diminish the vol and can keep pushing on. Reefed once a month to start with, tapering it to fortnightly, then weekly slipping into spending 3-4 days a week at maintenance and 3-4 days at a 200 cal deficit as you get leaner and leaner.
You can get pretty lean this way without having your training suffering or walking around like a bear with a sore head and making everyone else miserable.
Brad loomis (3DMJ coach) did a great series on YouTube about staying at mostly-maintenance and only cutting for 2 days a week. He used it over the long haul and constantly put up his total while getting pretty lean. I encourage people to check it out.3 -
My approach is normally to take it slow-and-steady:
Knock 200 cals off of maintenance and buckle in for the long haul. The advantage of this approach is you don't need to diminish the vol and can keep pushing on. Reefed once a month to start with, tapering it to fortnightly, then weekly slipping into spending 3-4 days a week at maintenance and 3-4 days at a 200 cal deficit as you get leaner and leaner.
You can get pretty lean this way without having your training suffering or walking around like a bear with a sore head and making everyone else miserable.
Brad loomis (3DMJ coach) did a great series on YouTube about staying at mostly-maintenance and only cutting for 2 days a week. He used it over the long haul and constantly put up his total while getting pretty lean. I encourage people to check it out.
I love this approach. It works so well for me. There are days and weeks when the scale doesn't move but I have experience and faith now that the numbers are right and I just need patience. It's so challenging not getting immediate gratification but it's great at the end when the results come in.
Plus it's easy to transition into maintenance without a massive water gain.1 -
Optimal refeed day frequency will vary from person to person and depends on several factors.
The leaner you are and the longer you’ve been in a calorie deficit, the more frequently you’ll likely want to refeed since the effects of the diet will be more severe on your body. On the other hand, beginners with higher body fat percentages who have not been dieting for very long will not need to refeed as often (if it all) in the beginning stages.
As a general rule, employing a refeed day once every 1-2 weeks will work well for most people, and going with the higher or lower end of the range depending on your level of leanness, how long you’ve been on your diet, as well as how the diet is affecting you individually.
Refeeds are not necessarily for everyone though, and if you’re consistently losing fat each week, you feel fine both physically and mentally, and you have no real desire to eat more food, then you can certainly skip over refeed days until you feel you need them later on.
My recommendation here is to keep things simple and to not unnecessarily over-complicate the process. The basic idea behind a proper refeed day is to simply employ a moderate increase in total calories, with the majority of that increase coming in the form of carbohydrates.
Remember, the idea here is to increase leptin levels, and carbohydrate consumption is the most effective way of accomplishing this since fat and protein have a minimal impact on leptin secretion.
Here are the basic refeed day calories and macros that I follow:
– I increase my total calorie intake back to my current estimated calorie maintenance level, which is the number of calories I require to maintain my body weight.
– I translate that increase in calories to a gram amount of carbohydrates by simply dividing it by 4, since carbs contain 4 calories per gram. So, if I increased my calorie intake by 500 for my refeed day, I'd consume an additional 125 grams of carbs.
– I keep my protein and fat intake at the same level I normally consume. (about 1g of protein per pound of body weight daily and 25% of total calories from fat).
Incorporating refeed days into a fat loss plan is an effective way of alleviating the typical physical/mental energy drain that comes with dieting, along with improving long term dietary adherence and potentially producing a direct increase in metabolic rate over the long term.
Even if the temporary increase in Ieptin does not significantly improve fat loss itself, the physical and psychological benefits of refeed days still make them a worthwhile technique to use for most people2 -
Just want to point out that i love threads like this.3
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Hmmm...I'm interested in these refeed days. I didn't do this when I was trying to lose weight the first time, but I may like to after this official bulk is done.1
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Optimal refeed day frequency will vary from person to person and depends on several factors.
The leaner you are and the longer you’ve been in a calorie deficit, the more frequently you’ll likely want to refeed since the effects of the diet will be more severe on your body. On the other hand, beginners with higher body fat percentages who have not been dieting for very long will not need to refeed as often (if it all) in the beginning stages.
As a general rule, employing a refeed day once every 1-2 weeks will work well for most people, and going with the higher or lower end of the range depending on your level of leanness, how long you’ve been on your diet, as well as how the diet is affecting you individually.
Refeeds are not necessarily for everyone though, and if you’re consistently losing fat each week, you feel fine both physically and mentally, and you have no real desire to eat more food, then you can certainly skip over refeed days until you feel you need them later on.
My recommendation here is to keep things simple and to not unnecessarily over-complicate the process. The basic idea behind a proper refeed day is to simply employ a moderate increase in total calories, with the majority of that increase coming in the form of carbohydrates.
Remember, the idea here is to increase leptin levels, and carbohydrate consumption is the most effective way of accomplishing this since fat and protein have a minimal impact on leptin secretion.
Here are the basic refeed day calories and macros that I follow:
– I increase my total calorie intake back to my current estimated calorie maintenance level, which is the number of calories I require to maintain my body weight.
– I translate that increase in calories to a gram amount of carbohydrates by simply dividing it by 4, since carbs contain 4 calories per gram. So, if I increased my calorie intake by 500 for my refeed day, I'd consume an additional 125 grams of carbs.
– I keep my protein and fat intake at the same level I normally consume. (about 1g of protein per pound of body weight daily and 25% of total calories from fat).
Incorporating refeed days into a fat loss plan is an effective way of alleviating the typical physical/mental energy drain that comes with dieting, along with improving long term dietary adherence and potentially producing a direct increase in metabolic rate over the long term.
Even if the temporary increase in Ieptin does not significantly improve fat loss itself, the physical and psychological benefits of refeed days still make them a worthwhile technique to use for most people
Solid gold.
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A few things to note, and this will be sort of random replies to bits and pieces in this thread.
First, I'd direct most of what I'm saying to people who have experience dieting and not to first timers since there are some behavioral and adherence aspects that are massively important that would come into play.
As far as deficit size, coming out of a bulk I don't think it's unreasonable to start out with a slightly aggressive deficit. You're theoretically fatter (because you just finished bulking), you're not going to be food focused (because you just finished bulking) and you're basically primed for fat loss. Because you are fatter, you are less likely to lose lean mass so you can afford to be more aggressive simply because more body fat is available to make up the energy gap).
So it may make sense to use a slightly aggressive deficit in the first 2 weeks or so of the diet provided that you know what you're doing and can execute this without adherence difficulties. I wouldn't take this approach with most people who are not already doing bulk and cut cycles, and well adjusted to dieting however.
Additionally, the flipside of dieting slowly is that you're dieting for a longer duration. For some people the slow approach is excellent and in fact with most general population clients I tend to favor this approach, and we do our best to make it as tolerable and "low stress" as possible so it doesn't feel like a challenging thing. That's the goal, anyway.
But there are definitely people (especially those will high levels of adherence, who for whatever reason have an innate ability to just suck it up) that will be better off going a bit faster, getting out of the deficit faster so that they can turn around and go back into a small surplus sooner. So you're spending more time in positive energy balance.
Regarding leptin upregulation, Lyle (someone who arguably popularized the idea of refeeds for upregulating leptin) recently mentioned that refeeding for a single day doesn't likely do anything appreciable for leptin because it just immediately plummets post refeed.
However, refeeds can still be plenty important for glycogen repletion and even more important for the psychological aspects of just having a higher intake of food.
I'd prioritize positioning the refeed where it best fits the lifestyle needs of the client and I'd put performance as a secondary criteria. So for example if leg day is Tuesday but chicken wings and beer day with the guys is Saturday, I'd put the refeed on Saturday for adherence purposes. I'm not sure if Eric Helms has changed his stance on this but I asked him this question about 6-8 months ago during a Skype session and he was also in this camp.
So whether the refeed has an appreciable effect on Leptin or not, it's still probably a very good idea. I currently have MOST people refeeding on a once per week basis but not everyone.
Regarding training volume, I don't tend to adjust training based on state of energy balance unless it's becoming apparent that the need is there to do so. I'd base that on recovery and how to handle that is going to depend on the client and his or her goals but generally I'd start by puling away total volume by removing sets but keeping weight on the bar and keeping rep ranges generally the same.
I think you could make a valid argument that you need to recover from the volume you are doing, but that if we take this too far and say "just do 1 set 1 time per week" at some point that becomes inferior in terms of overall results in strength/muscle mass.
great advice..
I am going slow this time, because last time I cut I feel like I stayed on the 1 pound per week loss train too long and it cut into my gains. So this time I am shooting for about 200 calories below maintenance, and going to go nice and slow. I am not too paranoid about fat these days, and once I get down to 185, I may just do a recomp for a year…
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New low weigh in of 174. Slow progressions to 165 for the next couple months, then maintain through summer. Or I'll mini cut til 168 and then bulk again. Refeeding off of feels and energy levels, but every 1-2 weeks back to bulking calories for one day (3600-4000) keeping fat low, protein moderate, and carbs high.1
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A few things to note, and this will be sort of random replies to bits and pieces in this thread.
First, I'd direct most of what I'm saying to people who have experience dieting and not to first timers since there are some behavioral and adherence aspects that are massively important that would come into play.
As far as deficit size, coming out of a bulk I don't think it's unreasonable to start out with a slightly aggressive deficit. You're theoretically fatter (because you just finished bulking), you're not going to be food focused (because you just finished bulking) and you're basically primed for fat loss. Because you are fatter, you are less likely to lose lean mass so you can afford to be more aggressive simply because more body fat is available to make up the energy gap).
So it may make sense to use a slightly aggressive deficit in the first 2 weeks or so of the diet provided that you know what you're doing and can execute this without adherence difficulties. I wouldn't take this approach with most people who are not already doing bulk and cut cycles, and well adjusted to dieting however.
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Aggressive being...1 pound per week? I'd be interested in taking two weeks fast and then slowing it down. But my maintenance is only 1800. Would you suggest that for someone like me?1 -
Following...1
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Also following1
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arditarose wrote: »A few things to note, and this will be sort of random replies to bits and pieces in this thread.
First, I'd direct most of what I'm saying to people who have experience dieting and not to first timers since there are some behavioral and adherence aspects that are massively important that would come into play.
As far as deficit size, coming out of a bulk I don't think it's unreasonable to start out with a slightly aggressive deficit. You're theoretically fatter (because you just finished bulking), you're not going to be food focused (because you just finished bulking) and you're basically primed for fat loss. Because you are fatter, you are less likely to lose lean mass so you can afford to be more aggressive simply because more body fat is available to make up the energy gap).
So it may make sense to use a slightly aggressive deficit in the first 2 weeks or so of the diet provided that you know what you're doing and can execute this without adherence difficulties. I wouldn't take this approach with most people who are not already doing bulk and cut cycles, and well adjusted to dieting however.
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Aggressive being...1 pound per week? I'd be interested in taking two weeks fast and then slowing it down. But my maintenance is only 1800. Would you suggest that for someone like me?
i would suggest that you slow cut, because you don't like eating a small amount of calories…
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arditarose wrote: »A few things to note, and this will be sort of random replies to bits and pieces in this thread.
First, I'd direct most of what I'm saying to people who have experience dieting and not to first timers since there are some behavioral and adherence aspects that are massively important that would come into play.
As far as deficit size, coming out of a bulk I don't think it's unreasonable to start out with a slightly aggressive deficit. You're theoretically fatter (because you just finished bulking), you're not going to be food focused (because you just finished bulking) and you're basically primed for fat loss. Because you are fatter, you are less likely to lose lean mass so you can afford to be more aggressive simply because more body fat is available to make up the energy gap).
So it may make sense to use a slightly aggressive deficit in the first 2 weeks or so of the diet provided that you know what you're doing and can execute this without adherence difficulties. I wouldn't take this approach with most people who are not already doing bulk and cut cycles, and well adjusted to dieting however.
.
Aggressive being...1 pound per week? I'd be interested in taking two weeks fast and then slowing it down. But my maintenance is only 1800. Would you suggest that for someone like me?
i would suggest that you slow cut, because you don't like eating a small amount of calories…
You know me. I might never cut.1 -
I'm hoping that my maintenance will be high enough that I can justify a higher deficit. I started a bit late to do a slow bulk this spring. Will have to see if I can handle the "quicker cut". I'll have to start my big winter bulk earlier this year (like not freaking December) so I have more time for both aspects...
And I'm with Steph on the bulk forever train... xD1 -
arditarose wrote: »A few things to note, and this will be sort of random replies to bits and pieces in this thread.
First, I'd direct most of what I'm saying to people who have experience dieting and not to first timers since there are some behavioral and adherence aspects that are massively important that would come into play.
As far as deficit size, coming out of a bulk I don't think it's unreasonable to start out with a slightly aggressive deficit. You're theoretically fatter (because you just finished bulking), you're not going to be food focused (because you just finished bulking) and you're basically primed for fat loss. Because you are fatter, you are less likely to lose lean mass so you can afford to be more aggressive simply because more body fat is available to make up the energy gap).
So it may make sense to use a slightly aggressive deficit in the first 2 weeks or so of the diet provided that you know what you're doing and can execute this without adherence difficulties. I wouldn't take this approach with most people who are not already doing bulk and cut cycles, and well adjusted to dieting however.
.
Aggressive being...1 pound per week? I'd be interested in taking two weeks fast and then slowing it down. But my maintenance is only 1800. Would you suggest that for someone like me?
You can still apply the same method but instead of thinking of it in terms of weight loss I'd think of it in terms of % TDEE perhaps.
So for example we might call a "reasonable cut" to be somewhere around 15-20% reduction in TDEE. Aggressive might be 30-35% or so.
This also assumes that you're in a position where it's appropriate for you to start a cut, you've got good adherence, etc, etc, crap I said earlier, lol.
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arditarose wrote: »A few things to note, and this will be sort of random replies to bits and pieces in this thread.
First, I'd direct most of what I'm saying to people who have experience dieting and not to first timers since there are some behavioral and adherence aspects that are massively important that would come into play.
As far as deficit size, coming out of a bulk I don't think it's unreasonable to start out with a slightly aggressive deficit. You're theoretically fatter (because you just finished bulking), you're not going to be food focused (because you just finished bulking) and you're basically primed for fat loss. Because you are fatter, you are less likely to lose lean mass so you can afford to be more aggressive simply because more body fat is available to make up the energy gap).
So it may make sense to use a slightly aggressive deficit in the first 2 weeks or so of the diet provided that you know what you're doing and can execute this without adherence difficulties. I wouldn't take this approach with most people who are not already doing bulk and cut cycles, and well adjusted to dieting however.
.
Aggressive being...1 pound per week? I'd be interested in taking two weeks fast and then slowing it down. But my maintenance is only 1800. Would you suggest that for someone like me?
You can still apply the same method but instead of thinking of it in terms of weight loss I'd think of it in terms of % TDEE perhaps.
So for example we might call a "reasonable cut" to be somewhere around 15-20% reduction in TDEE. Aggressive might be 30-35% or so.
This also assumes that you're in a position where it's appropriate for you to start a cut, you've got good adherence, etc, etc, crap I said earlier, lol.
lol Okay. I consider 20% aggressive for me ha. Now I get you though.1 -
arditarose wrote: »arditarose wrote: »A few things to note, and this will be sort of random replies to bits and pieces in this thread.
First, I'd direct most of what I'm saying to people who have experience dieting and not to first timers since there are some behavioral and adherence aspects that are massively important that would come into play.
As far as deficit size, coming out of a bulk I don't think it's unreasonable to start out with a slightly aggressive deficit. You're theoretically fatter (because you just finished bulking), you're not going to be food focused (because you just finished bulking) and you're basically primed for fat loss. Because you are fatter, you are less likely to lose lean mass so you can afford to be more aggressive simply because more body fat is available to make up the energy gap).
So it may make sense to use a slightly aggressive deficit in the first 2 weeks or so of the diet provided that you know what you're doing and can execute this without adherence difficulties. I wouldn't take this approach with most people who are not already doing bulk and cut cycles, and well adjusted to dieting however.
.
Aggressive being...1 pound per week? I'd be interested in taking two weeks fast and then slowing it down. But my maintenance is only 1800. Would you suggest that for someone like me?
You can still apply the same method but instead of thinking of it in terms of weight loss I'd think of it in terms of % TDEE perhaps.
So for example we might call a "reasonable cut" to be somewhere around 15-20% reduction in TDEE. Aggressive might be 30-35% or so.
This also assumes that you're in a position where it's appropriate for you to start a cut, you've got good adherence, etc, etc, crap I said earlier, lol.
lol Okay. I consider 20% aggressive for me ha. Now I get you though.
I think for someone who has a low TDEE, a 20% cut can be very aggressive, but with someone like me who has TDEE of 3000 calories, a 20% cut isn't bad.1
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