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Bodybuilding?

dorienhammdorienhamm Posts: 17Member Member Posts: 17Member Member
I've been doing the PHUL workout consistently for 6 months or so now but I was wondering if it's better if I go back to Splits? I ask because usually when I'm doing upper body, arms are the last part of the workout and for whatever reason I'm fatigued once I get to that part of my workout so I feel like I'm not really at my fullest potential or making gains. So should I just go back to doing splits instead? I'm also taking creatine, idk if that's necessary for the topic at hand but just putting that in here.

Replies

  • TresaAsweganTresaAswegan Posts: 890Member, Premium Member Posts: 890Member, Premium Member
    Part of the reason your arms may feel fatigued by the time you're getting to them is because you're using them in some way on all upper body movements. Any pressing is going to recruit the triceps, rowing movements will use the biceps. I wouldn't worry about it too much, just use an appropriate weight.

    I've personally come to love upper/lower splits, I can hit all muscle groups more frequently than I could with a body part split and be in the gym less days per week. (I'm not a fan of going to the gym just for "arm day", especially as a beginner. Just not necessary.) I also don't feel that hammering one muscle group each workout is the best way to train for someone early in their lifting career. I've done this, and I feel like I make more progress and feel/recover better when I do less volume per day and hit each muscle a few times a week.

    Have you taken progress photos or measurements to see how you've been progressing on this program?
  • JoRockaJoRocka Posts: 16,764Member Member Posts: 16,764Member Member
    I dislike body part splits- I much prefer push/pull- or upper lower- or just flat whole body compound lifts and a few accessories. Being said- I don't want to be a body builder- and I don't have 6 days a week to dedicate to that kind of training- so I don't- I don't like it because it doesn't work for me.

    But- being said- body builders use splits for a reason. They help target weak areas that need more time.

    Being said- I don't understand the notion that "you feel fatigued so you feel like you aren't reaching your fullest potential"

    you don't get gains out of your best lift once or twice.
    You get gains out of being tired. You get gains when you're are at the end and keep training. That's where it happens.

    You don't have to feel awesome to get something good out of a lifting session- that notion is a flat lie.

    How long have you been on the program you are on?
  • psuLemonpsuLemon Posts: 27,819Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator Posts: 27,819Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator
    Personally, unless you have been training for a significant amount of years and have reach your potential in all of you main lifts, then it's unlikely you really need a split. Also, your primary goal should be on the main lifts. They recruit more muscle fibers than other lifts, which is why programs have you do them first, followed by accessory lifts.
    JoRocka wrote: »
    I dislike body part splits- I much prefer push/pull- or upper lower- or just flat whole body compound lifts and a few accessories. Being said- I don't want to be a body builder- and I don't have 6 days a week to dedicate to that kind of training- so I don't- I don't like it because it doesn't work for me.

    But- being said- body builders use splits for a reason. They help target weak areas that need more time.

    Being said- I don't understand the notion that "you feel fatigued so you feel like you aren't reaching your fullest potential"

    you don't get gains out of your best lift once or twice.
    You get gains out of being tired. You get gains when you're are at the end and keep training. That's where it happens.

    You don't have to feel awesome to get something good out of a lifting session- that notion is a flat lie.

    How long have you been on the program you are on?

    Exactly. You get gains with progressively overloading your body. You don't need to get pump, feel maxed out or anything. You just need to force yourself to get stronger each week. And that means increase in total volume.


    Having said all that, if PHUL isn't addressing your needs, it may be worth switching to a new program of your lifting. But make sure it aligns to your current lifting level.
    edited February 14
  • trigden1991trigden1991 Posts: 4,166Member Member Posts: 4,166Member Member
    JoRocka wrote: »
    But- being said- body builders use splits for a reason. They help target weak areas that need more time.

    I thought the same until I became a bit more enlightened as to what other "things" bodybuilders use/do. I have come round to the thinking that frequency is more important than volume or intensity when it comes to your training split.
  • JoRockaJoRocka Posts: 16,764Member Member Posts: 16,764Member Member
    JoRocka wrote: »
    But- being said- body builders use splits for a reason. They help target weak areas that need more time.

    I thought the same until I became a bit more enlightened as to what other "things" bodybuilders use/do. I have come round to the thinking that frequency is more important than volume or intensity when it comes to your training split.

    There are many ways to get to the answer. There is a reason I squat 3 times a week. #teamfrequency
    One of the reasons Arnold was so successful was he trained power first-then transitioned into bodybuilding.

    LOL- I definitely don't presume to be an expert on BBing- it's not my bag- I'm only moderately educated on the subject. But I think my opinion that splits still are widely used for a reason stands- doesn't mean there aren't things that don't over lap- I think it's far from a black and white column A and column B situation.
  • psuLemonpsuLemon Posts: 27,819Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator Posts: 27,819Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator
    JoRocka wrote: »
    JoRocka wrote: »
    But- being said- body builders use splits for a reason. They help target weak areas that need more time.

    I thought the same until I became a bit more enlightened as to what other "things" bodybuilders use/do. I have come round to the thinking that frequency is more important than volume or intensity when it comes to your training split.

    There are many ways to get to the answer. There is a reason I squat 3 times a week. #teamfrequency
    One of the reasons Arnold was so successful was he trained power first-then transitioned into bodybuilding.

    LOL- I definitely don't presume to be an expert on BBing- it's not my bag- I'm only moderately educated on the subject. But I think my opinion that splits still are widely used for a reason stands- doesn't mean there aren't things that don't over lap- I think it's far from a black and white column A and column B situation.

    It should also be noted that many bodybuilders aren't exactly natty. So bro-splits can be effective since they can extend the window of MPS.


    But yea, I am also on the side of frequency.
  • SonrhizaSonrhiza Posts: 8Member Member Posts: 8Member Member
    great information....
    edited February 14
  • JoRockaJoRocka Posts: 16,764Member Member Posts: 16,764Member Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    JoRocka wrote: »
    JoRocka wrote: »
    But- being said- body builders use splits for a reason. They help target weak areas that need more time.

    I thought the same until I became a bit more enlightened as to what other "things" bodybuilders use/do. I have come round to the thinking that frequency is more important than volume or intensity when it comes to your training split.

    There are many ways to get to the answer. There is a reason I squat 3 times a week. #teamfrequency
    One of the reasons Arnold was so successful was he trained power first-then transitioned into bodybuilding.

    LOL- I definitely don't presume to be an expert on BBing- it's not my bag- I'm only moderately educated on the subject. But I think my opinion that splits still are widely used for a reason stands- doesn't mean there aren't things that don't over lap- I think it's far from a black and white column A and column B situation.

    It should also be noted that many bodybuilders aren't exactly natty. So bro-splits can be effective since they can extend the window of MPS.


    But yea, I am also on the side of frequency.

    It's one of the reasons I get crazy when people ask about doing splits- and if it's a good split for them or not.
    I'm like- you're not a bodybuilder- you won't want to look like a body builder- why are you trying to follow a body builder style plan?

    Logic people.
    Logic.
  • psuLemonpsuLemon Posts: 27,819Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator Posts: 27,819Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator
    JoRocka wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    JoRocka wrote: »
    JoRocka wrote: »
    But- being said- body builders use splits for a reason. They help target weak areas that need more time.

    I thought the same until I became a bit more enlightened as to what other "things" bodybuilders use/do. I have come round to the thinking that frequency is more important than volume or intensity when it comes to your training split.

    There are many ways to get to the answer. There is a reason I squat 3 times a week. #teamfrequency
    One of the reasons Arnold was so successful was he trained power first-then transitioned into bodybuilding.

    LOL- I definitely don't presume to be an expert on BBing- it's not my bag- I'm only moderately educated on the subject. But I think my opinion that splits still are widely used for a reason stands- doesn't mean there aren't things that don't over lap- I think it's far from a black and white column A and column B situation.

    It should also be noted that many bodybuilders aren't exactly natty. So bro-splits can be effective since they can extend the window of MPS.


    But yea, I am also on the side of frequency.

    It's one of the reasons I get crazy when people ask about doing splits- and if it's a good split for them or not.
    I'm like- you're not a bodybuilder- you won't want to look like a body builder- why are you trying to follow a body builder style plan?

    Logic people.
    Logic.

    It's like you know what goes through my head every time I am in the gym. There is one guy, I call the wanderer, who just walks around the whole time, picking up random weights and doing moves. Not once does he go near a barbell or do any compound lift.

    Oh, and the kids...... oh my god the kids....
    edited February 14
  • ThrForkOfJustice2016ThrForkOfJustice2016 Posts: 4Member Member Posts: 4Member Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    Personally, unless you have been training for a significant amount of years and have reach your potential in all of you main lifts, then it's unlikely you really need a split. Also, your primary goal should be on the main lifts. They recruit more muscle fibers than other lifts, which is why programs have you do them first, followed by accessory lifts.
    JoRocka wrote: »
    I dislike body part splits- I much prefer push/pull- or upper lower- or just flat whole body compound lifts and a few accessories. Being said- I don't want to be a body builder- and I don't have 6 days a week to dedicate to that kind of training- so I don't- I don't like it because it doesn't work for me.

    But- being said- body builders use splits for a reason. They help target weak areas that need more time.

    Being said- I don't understand the notion that "you feel fatigued so you feel like you aren't reaching your fullest potential"

    you don't get gains out of your best lift once or twice.
    You get gains out of being tired. You get gains when you're are at the end and keep training. That's where it happens.

    You don't have to feel awesome to get something good out of a lifting session- that notion is a flat lie.

    How long have you been on the program you are on?

    Exactly. You get gains with progressively overloading your body. You don't need to get pump, feel maxed out or anything. You just need to force yourself to get stronger each week. And that means increase in total volume.


    Having said all that, if PHUL isn't addressing your needs, it may be worth switching to a new program of your lifting. But make sure it aligns to your current lifting level.

    You get best gains when you get a burnimg feeling (myofibril hypertrophy). To minimize soreness stretch thoroughly before working out and do mobility stretches included.

    Progressive overload is best for strength training as you push your limits every time. Practise makes perfect so the more you lift the more your body gets used to lifting that weight therefore you are then stronger, and can overload gain.
  • ThrForkOfJustice2016ThrForkOfJustice2016 Posts: 4Member Member Posts: 4Member Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    JoRocka wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    JoRocka wrote: »
    JoRocka wrote: »
    But- being said- body builders use splits for a reason. They help target weak areas that need more time.

    I thought the same until I became a bit more enlightened as to what other "things" bodybuilders use/do. I have come round to the thinking that frequency is more important than volume or intensity when it comes to your training split.

    There are many ways to get to the answer. There is a reason I squat 3 times a week. #teamfrequency
    One of the reasons Arnold was so successful was he trained power first-then transitioned into bodybuilding.

    LOL- I definitely don't presume to be an expert on BBing- it's not my bag- I'm only moderately educated on the subject. But I think my opinion that splits still are widely used for a reason stands- doesn't mean there aren't things that don't over lap- I think it's far from a black and white column A and column B situation.

    It should also be noted that many bodybuilders aren't exactly natty. So bro-splits can be effective since they can extend the window of MPS.


    But yea, I am also on the side of frequency.

    It's one of the reasons I get crazy when people ask about doing splits- and if it's a good split for them or not.
    I'm like- you're not a bodybuilder- you won't want to look like a body builder- why are you trying to follow a body builder style plan?

    Logic people.
    Logic.

    It's like you know what goes through my head every time I am in the gym. There is one guy, I call the wanderer, who just walks around the whole time, picking up random weights and doing moves. Not once does he go near a barbell or do any compound lift.

    Oh, and the kids...... oh my god the kids....

    Yeah but picking up random weights and doing random exercises is a full body workout haha!!!

    Compound lifts are good in some ways, for overall strength and athleticism.

    Isolation lifts are better for aesthetics and building a particular muscle more.
  • LolBroScienceLolBroScience Posts: 4,555Member Member Posts: 4,555Member Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    Personally, unless you have been training for a significant amount of years and have reach your potential in all of you main lifts, then it's unlikely you really need a split. Also, your primary goal should be on the main lifts. They recruit more muscle fibers than other lifts, which is why programs have you do them first, followed by accessory lifts.
    JoRocka wrote: »
    I dislike body part splits- I much prefer push/pull- or upper lower- or just flat whole body compound lifts and a few accessories. Being said- I don't want to be a body builder- and I don't have 6 days a week to dedicate to that kind of training- so I don't- I don't like it because it doesn't work for me.

    But- being said- body builders use splits for a reason. They help target weak areas that need more time.

    Being said- I don't understand the notion that "you feel fatigued so you feel like you aren't reaching your fullest potential"

    you don't get gains out of your best lift once or twice.
    You get gains out of being tired. You get gains when you're are at the end and keep training. That's where it happens.

    You don't have to feel awesome to get something good out of a lifting session- that notion is a flat lie.

    How long have you been on the program you are on?

    Exactly. You get gains with progressively overloading your body. You don't need to get pump, feel maxed out or anything. You just need to force yourself to get stronger each week. And that means increase in total volume.


    Having said all that, if PHUL isn't addressing your needs, it may be worth switching to a new program of your lifting. But make sure it aligns to your current lifting level.

    You get best gains when you get a burnimg feeling (myofibril hypertrophy). To minimize soreness stretch thoroughly before working out and do mobility stretches included.

    Progressive overload is best for strength training as you push your limits every time. Practise makes perfect so the more you lift the more your body gets used to lifting that weight therefore you are then stronger, and can overload gain.

    It's needed for strength training, but also hypertropy.

    I'm not sure you fully understand what progressive overload means... it doesn't necessarily need to come in the form of increasing weight of max effort RPE.

    You can submaximaly achieve progressive overload through increased sets, reps etc at a lower % of 1rm and still achieve progressive overload over time without "pushing your limits".
    edited February 14
  • LolBroScienceLolBroScience Posts: 4,555Member Member Posts: 4,555Member Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    JoRocka wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    JoRocka wrote: »
    JoRocka wrote: »
    But- being said- body builders use splits for a reason. They help target weak areas that need more time.

    I thought the same until I became a bit more enlightened as to what other "things" bodybuilders use/do. I have come round to the thinking that frequency is more important than volume or intensity when it comes to your training split.

    There are many ways to get to the answer. There is a reason I squat 3 times a week. #teamfrequency
    One of the reasons Arnold was so successful was he trained power first-then transitioned into bodybuilding.

    LOL- I definitely don't presume to be an expert on BBing- it's not my bag- I'm only moderately educated on the subject. But I think my opinion that splits still are widely used for a reason stands- doesn't mean there aren't things that don't over lap- I think it's far from a black and white column A and column B situation.

    It should also be noted that many bodybuilders aren't exactly natty. So bro-splits can be effective since they can extend the window of MPS.


    But yea, I am also on the side of frequency.

    It's one of the reasons I get crazy when people ask about doing splits- and if it's a good split for them or not.
    I'm like- you're not a bodybuilder- you won't want to look like a body builder- why are you trying to follow a body builder style plan?

    Logic people.
    Logic.

    It's like you know what goes through my head every time I am in the gym. There is one guy, I call the wanderer, who just walks around the whole time, picking up random weights and doing moves. Not once does he go near a barbell or do any compound lift.

    Oh, and the kids...... oh my god the kids....

    Yeah but picking up random weights and doing random exercises is a full body workout haha!!!

    Compound lifts are good in some ways, for overall strength and athleticism.

    Isolation lifts are better for aesthetics and building a particular muscle more.

    You can easily argue that compound movements provide a better bang for your buck.... easier to accumulate volume with compound movements generally speaking.
  • Gallowmere1984Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,155Member Member Posts: 6,155Member Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    JoRocka wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    JoRocka wrote: »
    JoRocka wrote: »
    But- being said- body builders use splits for a reason. They help target weak areas that need more time.

    I thought the same until I became a bit more enlightened as to what other "things" bodybuilders use/do. I have come round to the thinking that frequency is more important than volume or intensity when it comes to your training split.

    There are many ways to get to the answer. There is a reason I squat 3 times a week. #teamfrequency
    One of the reasons Arnold was so successful was he trained power first-then transitioned into bodybuilding.

    LOL- I definitely don't presume to be an expert on BBing- it's not my bag- I'm only moderately educated on the subject. But I think my opinion that splits still are widely used for a reason stands- doesn't mean there aren't things that don't over lap- I think it's far from a black and white column A and column B situation.

    It should also be noted that many bodybuilders aren't exactly natty. So bro-splits can be effective since they can extend the window of MPS.


    But yea, I am also on the side of frequency.

    It's one of the reasons I get crazy when people ask about doing splits- and if it's a good split for them or not.
    I'm like- you're not a bodybuilder- you won't want to look like a body builder- why are you trying to follow a body builder style plan?

    Logic people.
    Logic.

    It's like you know what goes through my head every time I am in the gym. There is one guy, I call the wanderer, who just walks around the whole time, picking up random weights and doing moves. Not once does he go near a barbell or do any compound lift.

    Oh, and the kids...... oh my god the kids....

    Yeah but picking up random weights and doing random exercises is a full body workout haha!!!

    Compound lifts are good in some ways, for overall strength and athleticism.

    Isolation lifts are better for aesthetics and building a particular muscle more.

    You can easily argue that compound movements provide a better bang for your buck.... easier to accumulate volume with compound movements generally speaking.

    This. I'm seeing ridiculous size gains utilizing low-weight higher rep compounds (10x5x60-65%) as accessories; namely deads, squats, bench, ohp. Not to mention, doing lower body like that is exhausting as hell. My very last deadlift this morning took everything I had to lock out. I have GOT to quit smoking.
  • blackcomaroblackcomaro Posts: 525Member Member Posts: 525Member Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    JoRocka wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    JoRocka wrote: »
    JoRocka wrote: »
    But- being said- body builders use splits for a reason. They help target weak areas that need more time.

    I thought the same until I became a bit more enlightened as to what other "things" bodybuilders use/do. I have come round to the thinking that frequency is more important than volume or intensity when it comes to your training split.

    There are many ways to get to the answer. There is a reason I squat 3 times a week. #teamfrequency
    One of the reasons Arnold was so successful was he trained power first-then transitioned into bodybuilding.

    LOL- I definitely don't presume to be an expert on BBing- it's not my bag- I'm only moderately educated on the subject. But I think my opinion that splits still are widely used for a reason stands- doesn't mean there aren't things that don't over lap- I think it's far from a black and white column A and column B situation.

    It should also be noted that many bodybuilders aren't exactly natty. So bro-splits can be effective since they can extend the window of MPS.


    But yea, I am also on the side of frequency.

    It's one of the reasons I get crazy when people ask about doing splits- and if it's a good split for them or not.
    I'm like- you're not a bodybuilder- you won't want to look like a body builder- why are you trying to follow a body builder style plan?

    Logic people.
    Logic.

    It's like you know what goes through my head every time I am in the gym. There is one guy, I call the wanderer, who just walks around the whole time, picking up random weights and doing moves. Not once does he go near a barbell or do any compound lift.

    Oh, and the kids...... oh my god the kids....

    Yeah but picking up random weights and doing random exercises is a full body workout haha!!!

    Compound lifts are good in some ways, for overall strength and athleticism.

    Isolation lifts are better for aesthetics and building a particular muscle more.

    You can easily argue that compound movements provide a better bang for your buck.... easier to accumulate volume with compound movements generally speaking.

    This. I'm seeing ridiculous size gains utilizing low-weight higher rep compounds (10x5x60-65%) as accessories; namely deads, squats, bench, ohp. Not to mention, doing lower body like that is exhausting as hell. My very last deadlift this morning took everything I had to lock out. I have GOT to quit smoking.

    This get the blood in the muscles and feel the burn. Watch them blow up!
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