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Ketogenic overfeeding n=1 experiment by Wittrock
Replies
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wackyfunster wrote: »I would be interested in this as well since I'm trying to gain weight on a low carb diet. It's hard!
Very hard to gain muscle. If you are having trouble hitting your calorie targets you can always add oil/peanut butter/butter (not a big fan of this, but probably necessary if you want to bulk on a ketogenic diet). One cup of olive oil has 2000 calories FWIW. Personally, I don't know of anyone who has gotten good results from a low-carb bulk, but would love to see evidence that it can work.
That's a bit of a myth too. It is harder to gain muscle than if you have elevated insulin, but elevated leucine from a ketogenic diet appears to pick up much of the slack. It may not be quite as good, but its pretty close.1 -
I was able too gain weight eating LCHF but it was much harder than HCLF.5
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wackyfunster wrote: »I would be interested in this as well since I'm trying to gain weight on a low carb diet. It's hard!
Very hard to gain muscle. If you are having trouble hitting your calorie targets you can always add oil/peanut butter/butter (not a big fan of this, but probably necessary if you want to bulk on a ketogenic diet). One cup of olive oil has 2000 calories FWIW. Personally, I don't know of anyone who has gotten good results from a low-carb bulk, but would love to see evidence that it can work.
That's a bit of a myth too. It is harder to gain muscle than if you have elevated insulin, but elevated leucine from a ketogenic diet appears to pick up much of the slack. It may not be quite as good, but its pretty close.
Both leucine and training drive muscle protein synthesis and activate mTOR. The key is protein synthesis to be great than protein degradation (something insulin supports since it's anticatabolic). That would occur at a much higher rate with a higher carb diet; it's why carbs are king of bulk. This is why you have TKD/CKD diets (which aren't always super effective).
While these are interesting, I am not sure how much insight it will provide. The guy is pretty lean which gives him an advantage already, and it's not controlled. But I will watch it when I get home.4 -
wackyfunster wrote: »I would be interested in this as well since I'm trying to gain weight on a low carb diet. It's hard!
Very hard to gain muscle. If you are having trouble hitting your calorie targets you can always add oil/peanut butter/butter (not a big fan of this, but probably necessary if you want to bulk on a ketogenic diet). One cup of olive oil has 2000 calories FWIW. Personally, I don't know of anyone who has gotten good results from a low-carb bulk, but would love to see evidence that it can work.
That's a bit of a myth too. It is harder to gain muscle than if you have elevated insulin, but elevated leucine from a ketogenic diet appears to pick up much of the slack. It may not be quite as good, but its pretty close.
Both leucine and training drive muscle protein synthesis and activate mTOR. The key is protein synthesis to be great than protein degradation (something insulin supports since it's anticatabolic). That would occur at a much higher rate with a higher carb diet; it's why carbs are king of bulk. This is why you have TKD/CKD diets (which aren't always super effective).
I swear, just for *kitten* and giggles I'm going to run my next bulk on a traditional Highlander diet. Funny thing is, it sounds a whole lot like modern lifter food. Milks, cheeses, barley, oats, red meat, fish, kale, and onions and turnips occasionally. Clearly my ancestors were onto something. No wonder they were reported to be far larger than the English and Indians. xD1 -
That's interesting. He's afraid he won't be able to eat that much on a keto diet. I would lend him my fatty food appetite if I could.
What I'm interested to see is if his performance/energy improves with a higher calorie allowance, plus cholesterol.3 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »wackyfunster wrote: »I would be interested in this as well since I'm trying to gain weight on a low carb diet. It's hard!
Very hard to gain muscle. If you are having trouble hitting your calorie targets you can always add oil/peanut butter/butter (not a big fan of this, but probably necessary if you want to bulk on a ketogenic diet). One cup of olive oil has 2000 calories FWIW. Personally, I don't know of anyone who has gotten good results from a low-carb bulk, but would love to see evidence that it can work.
That's a bit of a myth too. It is harder to gain muscle than if you have elevated insulin, but elevated leucine from a ketogenic diet appears to pick up much of the slack. It may not be quite as good, but its pretty close.
Both leucine and training drive muscle protein synthesis and activate mTOR. The key is protein synthesis to be great than protein degradation (something insulin supports since it's anticatabolic). That would occur at a much higher rate with a higher carb diet; it's why carbs are king of bulk. This is why you have TKD/CKD diets (which aren't always super effective).
I swear, just for *kitten* and giggles I'm going to run my next bulk on a traditional Highlander diet. Funny thing is, it sounds a whole lot like modern lifter food. Milks, cheeses, barley, oats, red meat, fish, kale, and onions and turnips occasionally. Clearly my ancestors were onto something. No wonder they were reported to be far larger than the English and Indians. xD
I am just worried on my bulk, that I won't be able to eat more carbs. I already struggle with 320g on my cut... I think i might just say screw it and eat blocks of cheese with a side of ice cream.5 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »wackyfunster wrote: »I would be interested in this as well since I'm trying to gain weight on a low carb diet. It's hard!
Very hard to gain muscle. If you are having trouble hitting your calorie targets you can always add oil/peanut butter/butter (not a big fan of this, but probably necessary if you want to bulk on a ketogenic diet). One cup of olive oil has 2000 calories FWIW. Personally, I don't know of anyone who has gotten good results from a low-carb bulk, but would love to see evidence that it can work.
That's a bit of a myth too. It is harder to gain muscle than if you have elevated insulin, but elevated leucine from a ketogenic diet appears to pick up much of the slack. It may not be quite as good, but its pretty close.
Both leucine and training drive muscle protein synthesis and activate mTOR. The key is protein synthesis to be great than protein degradation (something insulin supports since it's anticatabolic). That would occur at a much higher rate with a higher carb diet; it's why carbs are king of bulk. This is why you have TKD/CKD diets (which aren't always super effective).
I swear, just for *kitten* and giggles I'm going to run my next bulk on a traditional Highlander diet. Funny thing is, it sounds a whole lot like modern lifter food. Milks, cheeses, barley, oats, red meat, fish, kale, and onions and turnips occasionally. Clearly my ancestors were onto something. No wonder they were reported to be far larger than the English and Indians. xD
I am just worried on my bulk, that I won't be able to eat more carbs. I already struggle with 320g on my cut... I think i might just say screw it and eat blocks of cheese with a side of ice cream.
Yet another reason that I love my northern Euro lineage more every day. I am able to process lactose just as well as any other sugar.1 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »That's interesting. He's afraid he won't be able to eat that much on a keto diet. I would lend him my fatty food appetite if I could.
What I'm interested to see is if his performance/energy improves with a higher calorie allowance, plus cholesterol.
Looks like he's making the difference with avocado oil, macadamia nuts, double obese keto coffee, and shakes stuffed with oils, heavy cream and peanut butter. But still...I imagine he's going to get real tired of that stuff really fast. He went on and on about how he killed it in the gym on Day 6 (probably from the cals).
Also, he lost one of the lb. gained in his day 6 video though. Interesting, but I wouldn't make much of it. He probably just reigned a bit on the porcelain throne.
From all that fat. Dayyyum. (This is coming from a person who lost all their weight on keto, and is still low-carb.) I just remember what happened when I had CO in the coffee too many days in a row. 
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baconslave wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »That's interesting. He's afraid he won't be able to eat that much on a keto diet. I would lend him my fatty food appetite if I could.
What I'm interested to see is if his performance/energy improves with a higher calorie allowance, plus cholesterol.
Looks like he's making the difference with avocado oil, macadamia nuts, double obese keto coffee, and shakes stuffed with oils, heavy cream and peanut butter. But still...I imagine he's going to get real tired of that stuff really fast. He went on and on about how he killed it in the gym on Day 6 (probably from the cals).
Also, he lost one of the lb. gained in his day 6 video though. Interesting, but I wouldn't make much of it. He probably just reigned a bit on the porcelain throne. From all that fat. Dayyyum. (This is coming from a person who lost all their weight on keto, and is still low-carb.) I just remember what happened when I had CO in the coffee too many days in a row.
Interestingly enough, weight loss does occur while on a surplus... it's no different than those who gain during weight loss. There are several people who have seen large losses (like 3 or 4 lbs) after a weekend of eating all the foodz and drinking.1 -
baconslave wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »That's interesting. He's afraid he won't be able to eat that much on a keto diet. I would lend him my fatty food appetite if I could.
What I'm interested to see is if his performance/energy improves with a higher calorie allowance, plus cholesterol.
Looks like he's making the difference with avocado oil, macadamia nuts, double obese keto coffee, and shakes stuffed with oils, heavy cream and peanut butter. But still...I imagine he's going to get real tired of that stuff really fast. He went on and on about how he killed it in the gym on Day 6 (probably from the cals).
Also, he lost one of the lb. gained in his day 6 video though. Interesting, but I wouldn't make much of it. He probably just reigned a bit on the porcelain throne. From all that fat. Dayyyum. (This is coming from a person who lost all their weight on keto, and is still low-carb.) I just remember what happened when I had CO in the coffee too many days in a row.
Interestingly enough, weight loss does occur while on a surplus... it's no different than those who gain during weight loss. There are several people who have seen large losses (like 3 or 4 lbs) after a weekend of eating all the foodz and drinking.
Yeah. I have heard so much about that from many, many people, but have never once experienced that myself. Though I get it's a thing.1 -
baconslave wrote: »baconslave wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »That's interesting. He's afraid he won't be able to eat that much on a keto diet. I would lend him my fatty food appetite if I could.
What I'm interested to see is if his performance/energy improves with a higher calorie allowance, plus cholesterol.
Looks like he's making the difference with avocado oil, macadamia nuts, double obese keto coffee, and shakes stuffed with oils, heavy cream and peanut butter. But still...I imagine he's going to get real tired of that stuff really fast. He went on and on about how he killed it in the gym on Day 6 (probably from the cals).
Also, he lost one of the lb. gained in his day 6 video though. Interesting, but I wouldn't make much of it. He probably just reigned a bit on the porcelain throne. From all that fat. Dayyyum. (This is coming from a person who lost all their weight on keto, and is still low-carb.) I just remember what happened when I had CO in the coffee too many days in a row.
Interestingly enough, weight loss does occur while on a surplus... it's no different than those who gain during weight loss. There are several people who have seen large losses (like 3 or 4 lbs) after a weekend of eating all the foodz and drinking.
Yeah. I have heard so much about that from many, many people, but have never once experienced that myself. Though I get it's a thing.
Out of curiosity, have you ever bulked?0 -
Interestingly enough, weight loss does occur while on a surplus... it's no different than those who gain during weight loss. There are several people who have seen large losses (like 3 or 4 lbs) after a weekend of eating all the foodz and drinking.
This happens to me (weight loss after eating a lot of food). But 100% of the time it's when I ate so much that it made me crap a lot hahaha (i.e. basically ate myself sick).2 -
So just quickly going through some of the data, I am not a huge fan of not controlling protein. He is eating almost 2x in protein from LCHF compared to HCLF. Also, it' bothers me (this is more pedantic) when people try to equate LBM as muscle (found in the below). But those are very initial observations and I still have to watch the videos
http://live.smashthefat.com/the-21-day-5000-calorie-carb-challenge/1 -
baconslave wrote: »baconslave wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »That's interesting. He's afraid he won't be able to eat that much on a keto diet. I would lend him my fatty food appetite if I could.
What I'm interested to see is if his performance/energy improves with a higher calorie allowance, plus cholesterol.
Looks like he's making the difference with avocado oil, macadamia nuts, double obese keto coffee, and shakes stuffed with oils, heavy cream and peanut butter. But still...I imagine he's going to get real tired of that stuff really fast. He went on and on about how he killed it in the gym on Day 6 (probably from the cals).
Also, he lost one of the lb. gained in his day 6 video though. Interesting, but I wouldn't make much of it. He probably just reigned a bit on the porcelain throne. From all that fat. Dayyyum. (This is coming from a person who lost all their weight on keto, and is still low-carb.) I just remember what happened when I had CO in the coffee too many days in a row.
Interestingly enough, weight loss does occur while on a surplus... it's no different than those who gain during weight loss. There are several people who have seen large losses (like 3 or 4 lbs) after a weekend of eating all the foodz and drinking.
Yeah. I have heard so much about that from many, many people, but have never once experienced that myself. Though I get it's a thing.
Out of curiosity, have you ever bulked?
No. I decided to just recomp. I thought about it, but I didn't think I could handle the psychology of the raise in the scale. I'm not ready to quit clutching the reigns that tightly yet.
I have had weekends where I've eaten all the things. I just gain temporarily or stay the same depending on what I've eaten/drunk and the magnitude of the injustice I've perpetrated on my body.0 -
So just quickly going through some of the data, I am not a huge fan of not controlling protein. He is eating almost 2x in protein from LCHF compared to HCLF. Also, it' bothers me (this is more pedantic) when people try to equate LBM as muscle (found in the below). But those are very initial observations and I still have to watch the videos
http://live.smashthefat.com/the-21-day-5000-calorie-carb-challenge/
I know... It's a shame not everything was kept exactly even. These n=1 raise interesting questions, and they make me think, but they don't answer anything definitively. Nutrition science is a hard one to pin anything down even when you have a large test pool and great resources. People all vary so much...0 -
baconslave wrote: »baconslave wrote: »baconslave wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »That's interesting. He's afraid he won't be able to eat that much on a keto diet. I would lend him my fatty food appetite if I could.
What I'm interested to see is if his performance/energy improves with a higher calorie allowance, plus cholesterol.
Looks like he's making the difference with avocado oil, macadamia nuts, double obese keto coffee, and shakes stuffed with oils, heavy cream and peanut butter. But still...I imagine he's going to get real tired of that stuff really fast. He went on and on about how he killed it in the gym on Day 6 (probably from the cals).
Also, he lost one of the lb. gained in his day 6 video though. Interesting, but I wouldn't make much of it. He probably just reigned a bit on the porcelain throne. From all that fat. Dayyyum. (This is coming from a person who lost all their weight on keto, and is still low-carb.) I just remember what happened when I had CO in the coffee too many days in a row.
Interestingly enough, weight loss does occur while on a surplus... it's no different than those who gain during weight loss. There are several people who have seen large losses (like 3 or 4 lbs) after a weekend of eating all the foodz and drinking.
Yeah. I have heard so much about that from many, many people, but have never once experienced that myself. Though I get it's a thing.
Out of curiosity, have you ever bulked?
No. I decided to just recomp. I thought about it, but I didn't think I could handle the psychology of the raise in the scale. I'm not ready to quit clutching the reigns that tightly yet.
I have had weekends where I've eaten all the things. I just gain temporarily or stay the same depending on what I've eaten/drunk and the magnitude of the injustice I've perpetrated on my body.
I can't blame you. Intentionally gaining fat is a very difficult battle for some and requires significant trust in the process. It also requires to have a very solid training program and nutrition to optimize your goals.1 -
Day 7 and he's back to where he started: 148.2 lbs.4
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Day 7 and he's back to where he started: 148.2 lbs.
That's interesting. Could it be that some people just don't digest fat as well, or maybe even compensate with increased NEAT? (watch the overfeeding documentary Why are Thin People not Fat). That's why weight gain was not one of the things I was interested to see. I know it happens. I inadvertently gained weight on keto because I had trouble keeping the calories down and my energy up enough to have a comparable NEAT. My main interest is, would more calories on keto provide more energy and performance? Seeing as fat is a slow source of energy I mean.1 -
I just started watching his channel, last week. It's been interesting.1
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amusedmonkey wrote: »Day 7 and he's back to where he started: 148.2 lbs.
That's interesting. Could it be that some people just don't digest fat as well, or maybe even compensate with increased NEAT? (watch the overfeeding documentary Why are Thin People not Fat). That's why weight gain was not one of the things I was interested to see. I know it happens. I inadvertently gained weight on keto because I had trouble keeping the calories down and my energy up enough to have a comparable NEAT. My main interest is, would more calories on keto provide more energy and performance? Seeing as fat is a slow source of energy I mean.
He was also commenting that he was thirsty and drinking a lot. Dehydration? I wouldn't be surprised if he is back up a pound for day 8.
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