Is There a Metabolic Advantage to a Ketogenic Diet?

LucasWilland

Bottom line: all the metabolic ward studies have consistently shown the same thing: there is no advantage for fat loss on a Ketogenic diet compared to one that is higher in carbohydrates.

Takeaway points: If you are on a ketogenic diet and truly enjoy it and it is working great for you, then by all means continue to do it, but don't think that you can scarf down as many grass- fed steaks as you want without there being consequences, in spite of low insulin or not.

Takeaway point number two: If the next time you are at an Italian restaurant and your best friend says that you can't have pasta because it will make you fat, proceed to:
a. slap the person silly
b. Show them this article and kindly explain to them what insulin actually does.

Since you are a good person, I predict that you will take the second option, but if your friend still doesn't listen, proceed to shrug and say, "oh, well, more yummy stuff for me."

http://shreddedbyscience.com/ketogenic-diets-actually-work-study-review/

wackyfunster

There's a simple reason these studies are often contradictory or inconclusive. There is a single nucleotide pair (rs1801282) that determines whether you more efficiently lose weight on a low carb or low fat diet. If you have the low-carb variant, keto will work better for you, and if not then a low-fat diet will work better.

Personally, I have the low-fat variant, so have had only bad experiences with keto/CKD, but on 40g fat/day I can get linear weight loss with ease.

LisaEatSleepRun

8 months in ketosis, 28 kg (61 pounds) down, regained insulin resistance, excellent cholesterol levels, feeling better than ever before. It works for me, however, I count calories, log accurately and run 6 days a week. Do what works for you in the long-term and forget the comparisons!

Azdak

Man, talk about showing up wearing the same dress:

http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10534745/low-vs-high-carbs-the-kevin-hall-study#latest

Azdak

Google "Kevin hall keto diet study" and you'll get some fun results.

"In defense of the insulin model of obesity"

"Carbz is stil evl"

"Kevin Hall is a big poopyhead"

Or my favorite: "You can have mah gainz when you pry them out of my cold, sticky, buttered fingers"

It's as much a religious argument as a scientific one.

ndj1979

so basically in people with no medical condition low carb/keto = moderate protein/moderate carb/moderate fat...

Tacklewasher

ndj1979 wrote: »

so basically in people with no medical condition low carb/keto = moderate protein/moderate carb/moderate fat...

Short answer? Eat less than you burn.

BrendaMHirst

What I love about keto and I think this is why people lose weight so much on it is because you don't get sugar spikes, therefore you eat what you can eat and feel full, if you overeat of course you're going to not drop the weight. I have a cheat day once a week and get back onto it the next day only because I weight train and I don't want my base calories to drop below 1400 when shredding. On keto I struggle to hit this 1400 and can easily go on 1000 calories and thats where the weightloss comes in and nd reason why I track my calories to ensure I'm eating enough to energise my body. But high carb diets work to so long as you don't mix fat and carbs together you are okay

BrendaMHirst

Only reason carbs are so popular now is due to the fact the population is so big we would not be able to feed everyone if it was not for carbohydrates. back many years ago we naturally ate in a ketogenic way due to grains being scarce but now we eat for pleasure not nutrition and thats why we tend to over eat.

lemurcat12

BrendaMHirst wrote: »

What I love about keto and I think this is why people lose weight so much on it is because you don't get sugar spikes, therefore you eat what you can eat and feel full, if you overeat of course you're going to not drop the weight.

This implies that sugar spikes are an issue for everyone who eats carbs (or carbs beyond keto level) and in particular that people eating more than keto levels of carbs don't feel full. Neither is my experience. The ONLY time that "sugar spikes" have been a problem for me is when I was not paying attention to calories and consistently undersleeping (I still struggle with the latter). My body would want to wake up and crave quick energy, so I'd crave stuff like plain bagels or whatever was around and eat it and wake up but then crash. I think why I'd quickly end up wanting to eat more sooner was more the issue with lack of sleep than carbs, although I know it's more of an issue for someone with IR if they eat an unbalanced diet.

However, eating a balanced diet and carbs with fiber tend to prevent sugar spikes anyway, even for those for whom it's an issue--this means protein and fat with carbs (as well as carbs with fiber).

Struggling with hunger has never really been an issue of mine, and having played around with a variety of ways of eating (under 100 g carbs to higher carb when trying WFPB for a bit), I haven't found that hunger varies much. What affects my hunger and tends to make me overeat is if I don't pay attention, eat mindlessly, and graze instead of eating regular meals. When I do this I tend to want food throughout the day (not really hunger, but still) and easily overeat. When I have a sensible schedule of regular meals I only think about food at meal time.

My impression is that some people do find that eating more carbs makes them more likely to be hungry, but it's certainly not everyone. Also, for a lot of people the difference between pre and after low carb is that they cut out a lot of foods that they considered hyperpalatable and hard to control consumption of (and which are often not that filling), but which are also as much fat as carbs. Or they cut out lots of things that were just sugar. Or they increased protein and (ironically) vegetables. A lot of times the people reporting this big difference hadn't been eating what would normally be considered a balanced healthful and satiating diet when eating more carbs, even though it's recommended to do so, of course.

On keto I struggle to hit this 1400 and can easily go on 1000 calories and thats where the weightloss comes in and nd reason why I track my calories to ensure I'm eating enough to energise my body.

Why on earth would this be good? (I also don't think struggling to hit 1400 is sustainable over time.)

But high carb diets work to so long as you don't mix fat and carbs together you are okay

Why can't you mix fat and carbs? If concerned about "sugar spikes" adding some fat (and protein too) to that bagel (like maybe some cream cheese and lox) would be preferable. IMO, a balanced meal is usually carbs, fat, and protein, like whole grain pasta with lean meat and lots of vegetables cooked with some olive oil, and maybe with some olives and pine nuts or added to the sauce and/or a sprinkle of cheese (feta and goat cheese are good, but lots of options). I love to start the morning with an omelet with lots of vegetables and a little feta plus some low fat cottage cheese (or maybe even some, gasp!, fruit) on the side. That also has fat and carbs.

BrendaMHirst wrote: »

Only reason carbs are so popular now is due to the fact the population is so big we would not be able to feed everyone if it was not for carbohydrates. back many years ago we naturally ate in a ketogenic way due to grains being scarce but now we eat for pleasure not nutrition and thats why we tend to over eat.

This is not true. No traditional diets seems to be ketogenic. A very few (like the Inuit) would be for you and me, but the people who ate it were not in ketosis -- their bodies seemed to have adapted to the low level of carbs. The blue zone diets are moderate to high carb.

All this aside, of course I think keto can be a good choice if you eat better on it and are happy on it, and make an effort to eat a healthful diet, but it's not the natural diet for humans (whatever that would mean) or superior to a diet with more carbs.

zyxst

BrendaMHirst wrote: »

What I love about keto and I think this is why people lose weight so much on it is because you don't get sugar spikes, therefore you eat what you can eat and feel full, if you overeat of course you're going to not drop the weight. I have a cheat day once a week and get back onto it the next day only because I weight train and I don't want my base calories to drop below 1400 when shredding. On keto I struggle to hit this 1400 and can easily go on 1000 calories and thats where the weightloss comes in and nd reason why I track my calories to ensure I'm eating enough to energise my body. But high carb diets work to so long as you don't mix fat and carbs together you are okay

Curious - if you love keto so much, why do you need a cheat meal? If it's such a good diet/way of eating, why take one meal to stop eating like that?

ndj1979

BrendaMHirst wrote: »

Only reason carbs are so popular now is due to the fact the population is so big we would not be able to feed everyone if it was not for carbohydrates. back many years ago we naturally ate in a ketogenic way due to grains being scarce but now we eat for pleasure not nutrition and thats why we tend to over eat.

nope, grains have been around for thousands of years, and population has not had any influence on grain/carb production ...

you can eat ketogenic and gain weight...it still comes down to calories in vs calories out

ndj1979

BrendaMHirst wrote: »

What I love about keto and I think this is why people lose weight so much on it is because you don't get sugar spikes, therefore you eat what you can eat and feel full, if you overeat of course you're going to not drop the weight. I have a cheat day once a week and get back onto it the next day only because I weight train and I don't want my base calories to drop below 1400 when shredding. On keto I struggle to hit this 1400 and can easily go on 1000 calories and thats where the weightloss comes in and nd reason why I track my calories to ensure I'm eating enough to energise my body. But high carb diets work to so long as you don't mix fat and carbs together you are okay

wrong, protein causes insulin to spike almost as much as carbs do. So if you are Keto, which is by nature high protein, you are getting a similar insulin spike.

Gallowmere1984

ndj1979 wrote: »

BrendaMHirst wrote: »

What I love about keto and I think this is why people lose weight so much on it is because you don't get sugar spikes, therefore you eat what you can eat and feel full, if you overeat of course you're going to not drop the weight. I have a cheat day once a week and get back onto it the next day only because I weight train and I don't want my base calories to drop below 1400 when shredding. On keto I struggle to hit this 1400 and can easily go on 1000 calories and thats where the weightloss comes in and nd reason why I track my calories to ensure I'm eating enough to energise my body. But high carb diets work to so long as you don't mix fat and carbs together you are okay

wrong, protein causes insulin to spike almost as much as carbs do. So if you are Keto, which is by nature high protein, you are getting a similar insulin spike.

You've clearly not paid attention to all of the people swearing by a 5/20/75 macro split. Ugh...just, how is that even possible without literally eating butter wrapped in cheese?

psuLemon

Azdak wrote: »

Man, talk about showing up wearing the same dress:

http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10534745/low-vs-high-carbs-the-kevin-hall-study#latest

Good think you guys didn't look: http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10436946/are-all-calories-equal-part-2-kevins-halls-new-study#latest

AnvilHead

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/ketogenic-low-carbohydrate-diets-have-no-metabolic-advantage-over-nonketogenic-low-carbohydrate-diets-research-review.html

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26278052

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16685046/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/27385608/

bpotts44

BrendaMHirst wrote: »

What I love about keto and I think this is why people lose weight so much on it is because you don't get sugar spikes, therefore you eat what you can eat and feel full, if you overeat of course you're going to not drop the weight. I have a cheat day once a week and get back onto it the next day only because I weight train and I don't want my base calories to drop below 1400 when shredding. On keto I struggle to hit this 1400 and can easily go on 1000 calories and thats where the weightloss comes in and nd reason why I track my calories to ensure I'm eating enough to energise my body. But high carb diets work to so long as you don't mix fat and carbs together you are okay

It is best to mix your carbs with a fat. If you are not overeating carbs and eat them with a fat (think potato with a pat of butter) there will be no significant blood sugar spike because the fat slows the digestion of the carbs. If keto works for you so be it, but I have tried keto and never felt full, ever. It doesn't work for everybody. Insulin helps you feel full it is a side effect, so if you introduce insulin with protein and carbs but eat them with a fat you will feel full.

ndj1979

AnvilHead wrote: »

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/ketogenic-low-carbohydrate-diets-have-no-metabolic-advantage-over-nonketogenic-low-carbohydrate-diets-research-review.html

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26278052

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16685046/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/27385608/

so you have no proof?

SideSteel

Great to see a Shredded by Science link in here

inertiastrength

LittleL78 wrote: »

8 months in ketosis, 28 kg (61 pounds) down, regained insulin resistance, excellent cholesterol levels, feeling better than ever before. It works for me, however, I count calories, log accurately and run 6 days a week. Do what works for you in the long-term and forget the comparisons!

Same for me (80lbs) and I ate carbs. It was glorious. Funny how being OVERWEIGHT can cause all of the above, and then LOSING it can correct it.

Nony_Mouse

BrendaMHirst wrote: »

Only reason carbs are so popular now is due to the fact the population is so big we would not be able to feed everyone if it was not for carbohydrates. back many years ago we naturally ate in a ketogenic way due to grains being scarce but now we eat for pleasure not nutrition and thats why we tend to over eat.

When exactly was this supposedly happening? Y'see, I'm an archaeologist, and have a fairly good grasp of human evolution and evolution of the human diet. I'm at a loss to identify a time period where the human diet would have been consistently low carb enough to qualify as ketogenic, particularly the super high fat/super low carb version we usually see advocated here.