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Do you think obese/overweight people should pay more for health insurance?
Replies
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BigDougie1211 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Yes, it's shocking, that the people who would suffer under your plan to tax us to supplement your care object.
But somehow you imply it means the overweight people would be supplementing *my* care?
You tried to turn the whole thing around. That isn't how a civilized debate or discussion works.
The whole point of Universal health care is that everyone supplements everyone's care. You look out for your neighbour and your neighbour looks out for you.
How can that be a bad thing?
How would you feel if every time I crashed my car YOUR car insurance went up?
Your car insurance costs continue to go up even though I have repeatedly been told I need to take a driving course - but I don't.
But again, I am advocating the Japanese system where they pay a additional tax for being too fat so I do not pay for those poor choices.
$147 billion worth of poor diet choices.
But I'm talking about Universal Healthcare as a whole topic here - not just the obesity question.
So what about the guy down the street who does look after himself, but for one reason or another can't afford health insurance?
Doesn't he deserve a hand? It's a hand we might all need ourselves one day.
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stanmann571 wrote: »CDC and NHS disagree with you. I'll go with them.
https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/adult/defining.html
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Obesity/Pages/Introduction.aspx
No they don't.
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Obesity/Pages/Introduction.aspx
"BMI isn't used to definitively diagnose obesity, because people who are very muscular sometimes have a high BMI without excess fat. But for most people, BMI is a useful indication of whether they're a healthy weight, overweight or obese."
https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/adult/defining.html
"Note: At an individual level, BMI can be used as a screening tool but is not diagnostic of the body fatness or the health of an individual. A trained healthcare provider should perform appropriate health assessments in order to evaluate an individual's health status and risks."
"BMI does not measure body fat directly, but research has shown that BMI is moderately correlated with more direct measures of body fat obtained from skinfold thickness measurements, bioelectrical impedance, underwater weighing, dual energy x-ray absorptiometry (DXA) and other methods"
You are either being deliberately obtuse or argumentative.
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stanmann571 wrote: »CDC and NHS disagree with you. I'll go with them.
https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/adult/defining.html
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Obesity/Pages/Introduction.aspx
No they don't.
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Obesity/Pages/Introduction.aspx
"BMI isn't used to definitively diagnose obesity, because people who are very muscular sometimes have a high BMI without excess fat. But for most people, BMI is a useful indication of whether they're a healthy weight, overweight or obese."
There are many ways in which a person's health in relation to their weight can be classified, but the most widely used method is body mass index (BMI).
BMI is a measure of whether you're a healthy weight for your height. You can use the BMI healthy weight calculator to work out your score.
For most adults, a BMI of:
•18.5 to 24.9 means you're a healthy weight
•25 to 29.9 means you're overweight
•30 to 39.9 means you're obese
•40 or above means you're severely obesehttps://www.cdc.gov/obesity/adult/defining.html
"Note: At an individual level, BMI can be used as a screening tool but is not diagnostic of the body fatness or the health of an individual. A trained healthcare provider should perform appropriate health assessments in order to evaluate an individual's health status and risks."
"BMI does not measure body fat directly, but research has shown that BMI is moderately correlated with more direct measures of body fat obtained from skinfold thickness measurements, bioelectrical impedance, underwater weighing, dual energy x-ray absorptiometry (DXA) and other methods"
You are either being deliberately obtuse or argumentative.
Weight that is higher than what is considered as a healthy weight for a given height is described as overweight or obese. Body Mass Index, or BMI, is used as a screening tool for overweight or obesity.
Adult Body Mass Index (BMI)
Body Mass Index (BMI) is a person's weight in kilograms divided by the square of height in meters. A high BMI can be an indicator of high body fatness.
To calculate BMI, see the Adult BMI Calculator or determine BMI by finding your height and weight in this BMI Index Chart.
•If your BMI is less than 18.5, it falls within the underweight range.
•If your BMI is 18.5 to <25, it falls within the normal.
•If your BMI is 25.0 to <30, it falls within the overweight range.
•If your BMI is 30.0 or higher, it falls within the obese range.
Obesity is frequently subdivided into categories:
•Class 1: BMI of 30 to < 35
•Class 2: BMI of 35 to < 40
•Class 3: BMI of 40 or higher. Class 3 obesity is sometimes categorized as “extreme” or “severe” obesity.
I'm becoming aggravated because you are being deliberately obtuse and argumentative and incorrectly using terms.0 -
BigDougie1211 wrote: »BigDougie1211 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Yes, it's shocking, that the people who would suffer under your plan to tax us to supplement your care object.
But somehow you imply it means the overweight people would be supplementing *my* care?
You tried to turn the whole thing around. That isn't how a civilized debate or discussion works.
The whole point of Universal health care is that everyone supplements everyone's care. You look out for your neighbour and your neighbour looks out for you.
How can that be a bad thing?
How would you feel if every time I crashed my car YOUR car insurance went up?
Your car insurance costs continue to go up even though I have repeatedly been told I need to take a driving course - but I don't.
But again, I am advocating the Japanese system where they pay a additional tax for being too fat so I do not pay for those poor choices.
$147 billion worth of poor diet choices.
But I'm talking about Universal Healthcare as a whole topic here - not just the obesity question.
So what about the guy down the street who does look after himself, but for one reason or another can't afford health insurance?
Doesn't he deserve a hand? It's a hand we might all need ourselves one day.
This is the realm of charitable institutions, not government. Implementing a system of governance around handouts will only end in failure. I hear Venezuela is nice this time of year...probably not now so much.
I deserve a hand - pay for my insurance.3 -
heiliskrimsli wrote: »do drug addicts, or alcoholics pay more? It's the same thing. Not all obese people are unhealthy and not all thin people are healthy...
With the power the insurance companies have, it could end up like car insurance, use it once and the price goes up...penalties for breaking a leg, or cutting your arm.
There is a precedent for smokers to be charged more.
The point of obesity's effect on health care is that it dramatically raises the risks of various diseases even if you don't have them yet.
Furthermore the negative effects may not be obvious at first.
You are going to have your work cut out for you if you think to convince me that "Not all obese people are unhealthy".
Diet, blood pressure, cholesterol, shortness of breath walking a flight of stairs, the toll on the joints.
I had none of these issues (but for toll on the joints, I am sure) when obese (I ate way more vegetables and probably less added sugar than the national average, also). However, I 100% agree that it was a health risk and I would have been okay with paying more, personally (although it probably would have caused me to be more observant and care more about other "risks" that people did not have to pay more for, which is what I think people are talking about. Insurance companies would like to charge more for people being obese for that factor. However, insurance companies would also like to charge more for the symptoms/bad tests, independent of obesity (i.e., for preexisting conditions). If you enter into new contracts each year, insurance companies would probably prefer to be able to charge more for things like high cholesterol, high blood pressure, blood sugar issues (none of which I had when obese, and which lots of non obese people have) than merely obesity.
All this aside, one thing I've found interesting about this discussion is that people seem bothered by charging more for obesity/overweight, but are NOT bothered by giving people discounts for being a healthy weight or making improvements on their weight, cholesterol, blood sugar, etc. There is actually not any difference between these two things. In the chance that the pluses for being fit approach encourages people to make improvements, I'd be in favor of it.4 -
stanmann571 wrote: »Isn't it interesting that most of the relatively fit people replying think paying more is a good idea while many of the responses from people who may be carrying more weight than necessary seem to disagree?
Yes, it's shocking, that the people who would suffer under your plan to tax us to supplement your care object.
Shocking indeed.
More services are great as long as someone else is paying for them.1 -
stanmann571 wrote: »I'm becoming aggravated because you are being deliberately obtuse and argumentative and incorrectly using terms.
You are working backwards from what you want the word to mean and then trying to cherry-pick stuff that seems to agree with you. I went to the links you provided and pointed out the parts that you seem to have missed.
I also pointed out how the word is at least 2000 years old and the etymology.
Just because BMI puts the word on a table does not mean it is somehow based on that.
There are probably a dozen words on the BMI table. Age, height, weight, male, female... are those "BMI terms" also?
You don't get much more clear than "BMI isn't used to definitively diagnose obesity", from your link.
I will concede that the way "BMI" has co-opted the word "Obese" has given nuance to the meaning and added to confusion.
However "obese" in the strict use of the word is a reference to too much body fat and that is still in formal use today.
"BMI" is a lazy way to estimate body fat and therefore put someone in a category quickly.
From the Harvard School of Public Health (related to School of Medicine), which is pretty darn authoritative:
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/obesity-prevention-source/obesity-definition/
"Obesity definition
What Does It Actually Mean to Be Overweight or Obese?
At their most basic, the words “overweight” and “obesity” are ways to describe having too much body fat.
The most commonly used measure of weight status today is the body mass index, or BMI."
From the Medscape peer review panel:
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/123702-overview
"Signs and symptoms
Although several classifications and definitions for degrees of obesity are accepted, the most widely accepted classifications are those from the World Health Organization (WHO), based on body mass index (BMI). The WHO designations are as follows:
Grade 1 overweight (commonly and simply called overweight) - BMI of 25-29.9 kg/m 2
Grade 2 overweight (commonly called obesity) - BMI of 30-39.9 kg/m 2
Grade 3 overweight (commonly called severe or morbid obesity) - BMI ≥40 kg/m 2
Some authorities advocate a definition of obesity based on percentage of body fat, as follows:
Men: Percentage of body fat greater than 25%, with 21-25% being borderline
Women: Percentage of body fat great than 33%, with 31-33% being borderline"
...
Evaluation of degree of body fat
BMI calculation, waist circumference, and waist/hip ratio are the common measures of the degree of body fat used in routine clinical practice. Other procedures that are used in few clinical centers include the following:
Caliper-derived measurements of skin-fold thickness
Dual-energy radiographic absorptiometry (DEXA)
Bioelectrical impedance analysis
Ultrasonography to determine fat thickness
Underwater weighing"
BMI arguably has a place when used compare large populations but the ease and speed of it led to widespread adoption and using it in place of more traditional and accurate measurements on individuals.4 -
Many work places in my area have entirely switched to high deductible health plans and with that the employer deposits money into their employee's HSA accounts. Now the trend I'm seeing is that this benefit is being denied if you are obese - but then the employer offers regular health screening and access to weight management resources. So I think this is a fair way to handle it. Everyone's insurance coverage and premiums are the same, but some employees receive an extra incentive for being healthy.0
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BusyBeeMeli wrote: »Many work places in my area have entirely switched to high deductible health plans and with that the employer deposits money into their employee's HSA accounts. Now the trend I'm seeing is that this benefit is being denied if you are obese - but then the employer offers regular health screening and access to weight management resources. So I think this is a fair way to handle it. Everyone's insurance coverage and premiums are the same, but some employees receive an extra incentive for being healthy.
Interesting. For those that aren't familiar an employer is not required to help fund someone's HSA. Just an optional benefit the employer can provide.1 -
This just in: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/fit-but-fat-may-be-a-myth-study-says/
Preliminary findings, but:
"They still have a higher risk of heart disease than normal-weight people, a new British study finds."
...
"At the population level, so-called metabolically healthy obesity is not a harmless condition and perhaps it is better not to use this term to describe an obese person, regardless of how many metabolic complications they have," Caleyachetty said in a meeting news release."0 -
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NorthCascades wrote: »
Oh, I didn't notice. Thanks for the heads-up.1 -
The other thread is delving into what is meant by health and fitness, and your comments and insight would be appreciated.0
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NorthCascades wrote: »The other thread is delving into what is meant by health and fitness, and your comments and insight would be appreciated.
I don't know if many of my responses are appreciated but I will give the thread a look.3 -
Sorry to interrupt, and no offense to anyone, but this definition just made me LOL.From French obésité, which is from Latin obesitas, which means "fatness," and from obesus, which means "something that's eaten itself fat."2
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Sorry to interrupt, and no offense to anyone, but this definition just made me LOL.From French obésité, which is from Latin obesitas, which means "fatness," and from obesus, which means "something that's eaten itself fat."
Although stated completely undiplomatically, it's not factually wrong as it can apply to any organism.3 -
heiliskrimsli wrote: »Although stated completely undiplomatically, it's not factually wrong as it can apply to any organism.
Nah, never mind. I'm thinking of someone else.
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Chef_Barbell wrote: »No. Sounds like a slippery slope and where does it stop?
I agree0 -
Chef_Barbell wrote: »No. Sounds like a slippery slope and where does it stop?
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Also, what about all the patient's that are on government assistance that don't pay for healthcare? I work in the medical field and there are many people that get state funded Medicaid that are obese and smoke. Many of them don't work, so they don't pay taxes to fund their healthcare. So on top of my own healthcare premiums, I am also paying for them.4
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