Cardio training while trying to gain muscle

mrsagraham

I know the whole perception that one can't possibly gain muscle while doing a lot of cardio, but I wondered if anyone whole trains seriously for distance running/biking has experience busting this myth. I injured myself around Christmas so I couldn't run much (did at marathon in Oct 16 and generally do a few half-marathons per year), and I took the opportunity to start lifting heavier and trying to put on muscle. While I have made some solid progress, I am now able to run more. I also enjoy biking quite a bit in the summer. I live in Vermont--it's always cold here so I have to take the 2-month summer window to get in a lot of outdoor activity

Basically, I am not able to really put on any weight (and therefore likely not much muscle). Does the community think this is solely a function of being unable to maintain a surplus of calories? Or is there REALLY something to the cardio= little muscle gain myth? I am trying hard to eat enough, but honestly have trouble doing so without just stuffing my face in a bag of chips. I generally don't feel well stuffing myself with junk food, plus I am also gluten-free and somewhat lactose-intolerant so I've lost some of my best sources of extra (still healthy) calories (i.e. Greek yogurt, cottage cheese, etc)/

My routine right now looks like this:

Monday: walk my dog ~45 min, 45-60 min lifting
Tuesday: 40-60 min run, ~45 min lifting
Wednesday: ride my bike to work (32 mi, 2 hrs)
Thursday: 40-60 min run, ~45 min lifting
Friday: walk my dog ~45 min, 45-60 min lifting
Saturday: 40-60 min run, ~45 min lifting
Sunday: varies. Might be active rest (~60 push-mowing, walking dog) or might be a dog walking/lifting day, a shorter bike ride, or a hike

I do a lifting split that amounts to 2 days back/bi, 2 days chest, 2 days legs with at least 48 hrs between each (i.e. legs Tuesday and Friday). I take a real rest day when I feel like it, but I really enjoy being active in some form or fashion.

I'm 5'5, 121 pounds, probably ~16-18% BF (I have a BF scale that says 15.8%, but I know those are inaccurate. I can see my ab muscles pretty well and my upper body is very lean, so this is a best-guess). I try for at least 2300 calories a day, more like 2600 on a heavy cardio day. I shoot for a split of about 50 C/25 P/ 25F.

If you've made it to the end of this post, you're a trooper! I appreciate any input on how/whether I can expect to make progress lifting while doing the outdoor activities I love!

Chieflrg

I never heard of that perception.

Of course you can, but most people find consuming enough calories to do so serious work in itself. Rest is also important to have sucess. I ran anywhere from 5-18 miles a day every day with cycling 20-100 miles per week on top all while strength training and playing catcher for baseball in my 40's and had notable sucess.

So if you burn 1500 calories you must eat 1500 calories more than if you didn't cardio.

I had to eat alot of ice cream, huge cheeseburgers, pizza to get enough calories and my training program had to be tailored for all my activity.

se015

Chieflrg wrote: »

I never heard of that perception.

Of course you can, but most people find consuming enough calories to do so serious work in itself. Rest is also important to have sucess. I ran anywhere from 5-18 miles a day every day with cycling 20-100 miles per week on top all while strength training and playing catcher for baseball in my 40's and had notable sucess.

So if you burn 1500 calories you must eat 1500 calories more than if you didn't cardio.

I had to eat alot of ice cream, huge cheeseburgers, pizza to get enough calories and my training program had to be tailored for all my activity.

Good point, however you said you were in your 40's, it's a lot easier to gain weight and a lot harder to lose weight when you're past 30, right? I agree with you it is possible, but I feel like age matters due to the metabolism?

Chieflrg

I have no prob losing weight. All that is required is adhering to a deficit and patience.

trigden1991

Your calorie balance will control your weight, you just need to account for your activity.

TavistockToad

If you're eating enough you should be able to gain. I would imagine you would just need to prioritise the lifting if gaining weight was your goal.

cs2thecox

If you're struggling to put on ANY weight, then yes you're probably in a calorie deficit.

There are lots of calorie-dense foods that aren't gluten or dairy though.
Avocado, hummus, nuts, seeds etc. 1 heaped teaspoon of nut butter can be over 100 calories!
There's also nothing wrong with a decent glug of oil when you're cooking, but do use a decent one to get the right omegas rather than bad fats.

You also may be lifting too often. I've seen the best gains by lifting only 3 times a week.
Your muscles only recover and GROW when you're resting, so if you're constantly hammering them by working out, then your body never gets a change. It's the same reason why sleep is hugely important.

I'm also a tad over 5'5" and recently measured at 15.8% body fat on 7-site skin fold calipers, but I weigh 60kg.
I'm on about 2,000 calories a day, 135g of protein, 200g carbs, rest in fat but carbs/fat are tradeable.
I lift 3 times a week, and don't do any dedicated cardio at all, just about 12,000 steps a day of general activity.
(This is all set by my trainer, and has been working fantastically well over the last year.)

richardgavel

You really should be asking why the cardio hinders muscle building and there are 2 aspects of the top of my head. One is calories, I'm a triathlete and I find it tough to maintain the surplus necessary for muscle building when I do significant cardio work. Maybe as important is reduced recovery time, since it's the time off when your body actually builds the muscle. But if you fill that time with cardio, when does your body get to recover?

robertw486

I would think the above from @richardgavel would be front and center, along with choosing priorities of muscle vs cardio through the season. With a strong cardio base, it's hard for people to risk losing that base, but might be needed to gain some muscle along the way.

If there is no desire to compromise on the running even short term, lifting before running might take better advantage of glycogen stores and result in stronger lifts, with the long term cardio base hopefully keeping any running losses to minimal. But it still takes the calorie surplus and rest time, and that seems short at the moment.

richardgavel

Id agree on prioritization with robertw486 above. In season, my lifting focus is just on maintaining my existing lean body massage and maybe an increase in the raw lifting numbers, since I'm usually at a deficit in season. Off season, my cardio length and intensity goes down, I'm in a small surplus, and my priority shifts to muscle building.

mrsagraham

Thank you all for your responses! I am coming to terms with the fact that unless I want to really start stuffing my face all the time, I may not be able to eat enough to gain during the summer when I'm enjoying all my outdoor cardio. I may try to adjust my focus for the summer, maintain what I've got, and then refocus on muscle-gain during the winter when I run for shorter lengths outside and don't really bike. It's a good point too that I should probably schedule more frequent rest days...I've never been great at that.

@cs2thecox -- do you do a whole-body lifting program on each of the three days your work out, or do you have a split routine? I can't really ever picture a time when I work out only 3x a week (I obviously have too much time on my hands...), because exercise is one of my biggest stress-reducing activities! However, I keep toying with the idea of lifting 3 days a week and doing cardio on the other days, so at least I'm not doing both on the same day.

cs2thecox

@mrsagraham At the moment it looks like this...

Day 1
Leg press
Incline bench press with dumbells
Lower ab lifts
Lat pull downs

Day 2
Barbell glute raises
Crunches
Bench press
Standing single arm rows with dumbells

Day 3
Cage lifts (like deadlifts but with one of those square bars you stand inside)
Cable rotation thingies
Seated row
Tricep pull downs

dalerst

Rest days have been one of my biggest downs! I've been doing 6 days a week for the last 6 months and not giving any rest to the muscles, now I've lost muscle mass and to much weight I'm now focusing on a 5x5 programme 3 days a week and will hopefully gain some mass back and build muscle at the dame time.

rybo

Here's my suggestions
1. Eat more (yes, I know that's obvious)
2. Switch your lifting to 3x full body, or upper/lower/upper/lower if u really like 4 days
3. Do the minimum required dose for each thing you are trying to accomplish. More isn't always better.
4. Try to maximize rest as much as possible

Rusty740

Having a calorie surplus is the main driver. The next driver is rest (for each different activity type strength vs cardio). Essentially the hormones created in your body by strength training (and the surplus) are telling it to build muscle. The cardio is using energy and the hormones are telling your body, get really lean and efficient. The two don't mix at the same time. I don't recall where I'd seen the study, but it was for people who do strength and cardio on the same day vs on different days and those who did it on different days came out ahead in terms of gaining muscle.

sijomial

I've only heard of that perception on bodybuilding sites - most people in "the real world" are aware of big, strong muscular people who are also very cardio fit and do a lot of cardio. Rugby players for example.
(They also eat a lot!!)

Your belief in healthy / unhealthy calories isn't helpful to you if you want to gain weight.
Say you have a day where you meet or exceed all your nutritional requirements but are still short of calories - what detriment will extra less nutrient dense foods do to you?

As a long distance cyclist exercise recovery and time to train are my big problems. So in summer I'm really a cyclist who lifts and in winter I'm a lifter who cycles. Priorities set my agenda.
During summer time I do virtually no lower body weights at all, my legs are fully occupied by cycling.

PS - I'm not a fan of your lifting split. Also not a fan of cardio and lifting on the same day, too much compromise on what you do second, especially with you only hitting your muscles twice a week.

stanmann571

I'm not going to pile on to your lifting split, it's been beat to death, although it's not the worst split in the world.

That being said.. I will pile on to the calories... Eat more.

And no, the small amount of cardio you're doing isn't holding you back.

mrsagraham

Hello all,

Thanks for the feedback. I'm seeing a lot of "I don't like your lifting splits", but I don't suggestions for better ideas? I've been doing this for a long while, so would be happy to switch it up but don't have any great ideas for a better way.

Eating more is something I'm working on, I am annoyingly one of those women who really f-ed up my relationship with food when I was younger so I struggle to just pound a ton of it (still). Bleh. Also, I do love me some chips and stuff, so don't take my reluctance to eat a lot of pizza, etc as just a preoccupation with "healthy" food--it's really just that I literally feel sick when I eat a lot of that kind of thing. It seems silly to eat to gain when the food I have to eat to do it makes me feel like crap.

I find the comment about my "small amount of cardio" interesting, since most people around me seem to think that 5-7 hrs of it a week is a fair amount for someone who's not an avid marathoner or Ironman or something. Glad to hear that other people don't see this as a barrier to muscle gain, though!

cwolfman13

mrsagraham wrote: »

I know the whole perception that one can't possibly gain muscle while doing a lot of cardio, but I wondered if anyone whole trains seriously for distance running/biking has experience busting this myth. I injured myself around Christmas so I couldn't run much (did at marathon in Oct 16 and generally do a few half-marathons per year), and I took the opportunity to start lifting heavier and trying to put on muscle. While I have made some solid progress, I am now able to run more. I also enjoy biking quite a bit in the summer. I live in Vermont--it's always cold here so I have to take the 2-month summer window to get in a lot of outdoor activity

Basically, I am not able to really put on any weight (and therefore likely not much muscle). Does the community think this is solely a function of being unable to maintain a surplus of calories? Or is there REALLY something to the cardio= little muscle gain myth? I am trying hard to eat enough, but honestly have trouble doing so without just stuffing my face in a bag of chips. I generally don't feel well stuffing myself with junk food, plus I am also gluten-free and somewhat lactose-intolerant so I've lost some of my best sources of extra (still healthy) calories (i.e. Greek yogurt, cottage cheese, etc)/

My routine right now looks like this:

Monday: walk my dog ~45 min, 45-60 min lifting
Tuesday: 40-60 min run, ~45 min lifting
Wednesday: ride my bike to work (32 mi, 2 hrs)
Thursday: 40-60 min run, ~45 min lifting
Friday: walk my dog ~45 min, 45-60 min lifting
Saturday: 40-60 min run, ~45 min lifting
Sunday: varies. Might be active rest (~60 push-mowing, walking dog) or might be a dog walking/lifting day, a shorter bike ride, or a hike

I do a lifting split that amounts to 2 days back/bi, 2 days chest, 2 days legs with at least 48 hrs between each (i.e. legs Tuesday and Friday). I take a real rest day when I feel like it, but I really enjoy being active in some form or fashion.

I'm 5'5, 121 pounds, probably ~16-18% BF (I have a BF scale that says 15.8%, but I know those are inaccurate. I can see my ab muscles pretty well and my upper body is very lean, so this is a best-guess). I try for at least 2300 calories a day, more like 2600 on a heavy cardio day. I shoot for a split of about 50 C/25 P/ 25F.

If you've made it to the end of this post, you're a trooper! I appreciate any input on how/whether I can expect to make progress lifting while doing the outdoor activities I love!

The issue with a lot of cardio when you're trying to put on muscle mass is that you have to eat a LOT of food...with your activity, I'd think your maintenance would be pretty high...well above 2300 calories. My wife is 5'2" and runs 4x per week and her maintenance is around 2300. You're going to have to either learn to eat more to get into a surplus or reduce your activity.

Most of my body building friends don't do much cardio when they're bulking...maybe a jog here and there and some walking...they're already having to stuff their faces, so more cardio just makes things harder.

stanmann571

mrsagraham wrote: »

Hello all,

Thanks for the feedback. I'm seeing a lot of "I don't like your lifting splits", but I don't suggestions for better ideas? I've been doing this for a long while, so would be happy to switch it up but don't have any great ideas for a better way.

Eating more is something I'm working on, I am annoyingly one of those women who really f-ed up my relationship with food when I was younger so I struggle to just pound a ton of it (still). Bleh. Also, I do love me some chips and stuff, so don't take my reluctance to eat a lot of pizza, etc as just a preoccupation with "healthy" food--it's really just that I literally feel sick when I eat a lot of that kind of thing. It seems silly to eat to gain when the food I have to eat to do it makes me feel like crap.

I find the comment about my "small amount of cardio" interesting, since most people around me seem to think that 5-7 hrs of it a week is a fair amount for someone who's not an avid marathoner or Ironman or something. Glad to hear that other people don't see this as a barrier to muscle gain, though!

Honestly, you're only doing about 3 hours a week of "cardio" The rest is just lifestyle activity...

To be fair, you've got 4+ hours a week of lifestyle activity... but that's life...

richardgavel

stanmann571 wrote: »

mrsagraham wrote: »

Hello all,

Thanks for the feedback. I'm seeing a lot of "I don't like your lifting splits", but I don't suggestions for better ideas? I've been doing this for a long while, so would be happy to switch it up but don't have any great ideas for a better way.

Eating more is something I'm working on, I am annoyingly one of those women who really f-ed up my relationship with food when I was younger so I struggle to just pound a ton of it (still). Bleh. Also, I do love me some chips and stuff, so don't take my reluctance to eat a lot of pizza, etc as just a preoccupation with "healthy" food--it's really just that I literally feel sick when I eat a lot of that kind of thing. It seems silly to eat to gain when the food I have to eat to do it makes me feel like crap.

I find the comment about my "small amount of cardio" interesting, since most people around me seem to think that 5-7 hrs of it a week is a fair amount for someone who's not an avid marathoner or Ironman or something. Glad to hear that other people don't see this as a barrier to muscle gain, though!

mrsagraham wrote: »

Hello all,

Thanks for the feedback. I'm seeing a lot of "I don't like your lifting splits", but I don't suggestions for better ideas? I've been doing this for a long while, so would be happy to switch it up but don't have any great ideas for a better way.

Eating more is something I'm working on, I am annoyingly one of those women who really f-ed up my relationship with food when I was younger so I struggle to just pound a ton of it (still). Bleh. Also, I do love me some chips and stuff, so don't take my reluctance to eat a lot of pizza, etc as just a preoccupation with "healthy" food--it's really just that I literally feel sick when I eat a lot of that kind of thing. It seems silly to eat to gain when the food I have to eat to do it makes me feel like crap.

I find the comment about my "small amount of cardio" interesting, since most people around me seem to think that 5-7 hrs of it a week is a fair amount for someone who's not an avid marathoner or Ironman or something. Glad to hear that other people don't see this as a barrier to muscle gain, though!

Honestly, you're only doing about 3 hours a week of "cardio" The rest is just lifestyle activity...

To be fair, you've got 4+ hours a week of lifestyle activity... but that's life...

She's doing 40 to 60 mins of running each time. That could be anywhere from 4 miles to 8 miles and can support a wide range of intensity levels. She said she's done half and full marathons.