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You dont need to calorie count

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  • Need2Exerc1se
    Need2Exerc1se Posts: 13,576 Member
    "Eating less" doesn't work for me in more than one way.

    I simply have no concept of "less" for some reason. My hunger signals are unreliable, so maybe that plays a role. I have days where I feel like I have barely eaten that clock over 2000 calories, and days that feel like I have eaten a lot that are barely 1200 calories, independent of food choices. I'm supposed to eat less that what, exactly? How do I quantify my "less" without calorie counting when I can't trust my perception? I put roughly the same amount of sandwich spread on my sandwich, at least in my mind. In reality, "the same amount" ends up nearly twice the usual when I'm hungry because my brain makes it look tiny. I can not log, but I cannot not count. I always have a rough tally of calories in my head even if I'm not logging and continue to weigh food.

    Another reason I don't have a real concept of less is the way I tend to eat. My eating is kind of "modular". There are a few things that I eat in consistent portions, so I supposed I can eat less of these if I weigh them, but more often than not my portion size depends on what other things I'm having that day and how much a certain thing feels "worth the calories" that day and how many calories I'm willing to spend on it, so many of my foods don't snap together uniformly every day in the same amounts and the same rotation foods. It's more like a Tetris game. Quantifying "less" without a clear numerical indicator is an exercise in futility with my preferred approach.

    Having been super morbidly obese and climbing and obese since childhood I think I'm just broken. You don't get to that weight naturally unless something is messed up. People who haven't had to lose much may find it hard to understand. "Eat less" sounds simple to them, almost intuitive, but people need to work with what they have to achieve a weight management experience that is reasonably pleasant. You can't work with what you don't have or adopt an approach that isn't pleasant.

    This makes a whole lot of sense.
  • rileysowner
    rileysowner Posts: 8,050 Member
    "Eating less" doesn't work for me in more than one way.

    I simply have no concept of "less" for some reason. My hunger signals are unreliable, so maybe that plays a role. I have days where I feel like I have barely eaten that clock over 2000 calories, and days that feel like I have eaten a lot that are barely 1200 calories, independent of food choices. I'm supposed to eat less that what, exactly? How do I quantify my "less" without calorie counting when I can't trust my perception? I put roughly the same amount of sandwich spread on my sandwich, at least in my mind. In reality, "the same amount" ends up nearly twice the usual when I'm hungry because my brain makes it look tiny. I can not log, but I cannot not count. I always have a rough tally of calories in my head even if I'm not logging and continue to weigh food.

    Another reason I don't have a real concept of less is the way I tend to eat. My eating is kind of "modular". There are a few things that I eat in consistent portions, so I supposed I can eat less of these if I weigh them, but more often than not my portion size depends on what other things I'm having that day and how much a certain thing feels "worth the calories" that day and how many calories I'm willing to spend on it, so many of my foods don't snap together uniformly every day in the same amounts and the same rotation foods. It's more like a Tetris game. Quantifying "less" without a clear numerical indicator is an exercise in futility with my preferred approach.

    Having been super morbidly obese and climbing and obese since childhood I think I'm just broken. You don't get to that weight naturally unless something is messed up. People who haven't had to lose much may find it hard to understand. "Eat less" sounds simple to them, almost intuitive, but people need to work with what they have to achieve a weight management experience that is reasonably pleasant. You can't work with what you don't have or adopt an approach that isn't pleasant.

    This.

  • cwolfman13
    cwolfman13 Posts: 41,879 Member
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    Jruzer wrote: »
    rybo wrote: »
    I'm one who feels people should strive to eat without counting. In some situations and as a learning tool, counting can be invaluable, but I don't understand the accepted reliance on daily calorie counting for life.
    If after a period of time counting, surely you understand how much food you need and are ingesting without measuring every gram? If you have a trend up, eat less. If you are trending down, eat more. I know that relying on hunger cues can be dangerous, sometimes you follow your hunger & eat, sometimes you have to know when to ignore it. I also think that individuals should find foods that they enjoy that are difficult to overindulge on.

    OK, I'm going to expose why Mrs Jruzer sometimes calls me "Sheldon."

    How do you know if you're eating less, or more? How much less? How much more? If you're not measuring, how do you know?

    I'm all for developing healthy habits, and I'm much better and thoughtful about what I eat than I used to be. But the whole "less/more" thing is confusing to me.

    The scale tells you...

    I typically put on about 8-10 Lbs over the winter due in large part to an overall decrease in activity...both NEAT and EAT. I take it off in Spring when I get back on the bike and I give it another nudge with doing things like not having grains or starches with my dinner most nights (not every night)...scaling back a snack...reducing the size of my breakfast, etc.

    I don't count calories, as it was pretty bad mentally for me...I still weigh and measure certain things though, particularly if they're calorie dense and particularly if I'm trying to lose weight...maintenance is far less of an issue and I don't have to think about it too much except in winter when my activity dips.

    Most of my diet is also whole foods based which is more of a health thing and keeping my blood work in line...but it also helps me not overeat or at least not overeat often enough to change anything...

    That works for you. When I do that, it doesn't work for me. For me it is count calories so I can enjoy life. For others calorie counting doesn't put them in a good place, and if they have success intuitively eating, good for them.

    Yeah, whatever works...I'm just hard pressed to believe the vast majority will actually, realistically count calories into perpetuity. I'm hoping to be around for another 40 - 50 years...the thought of counting every calorie for the next 50 years doesn't seem particularly realistic to me.

    I'd wager the number of people who count calories for life are very few...
  • Need2Exerc1se
    Need2Exerc1se Posts: 13,576 Member
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    Jruzer wrote: »
    rybo wrote: »
    I'm one who feels people should strive to eat without counting. In some situations and as a learning tool, counting can be invaluable, but I don't understand the accepted reliance on daily calorie counting for life.
    If after a period of time counting, surely you understand how much food you need and are ingesting without measuring every gram? If you have a trend up, eat less. If you are trending down, eat more. I know that relying on hunger cues can be dangerous, sometimes you follow your hunger & eat, sometimes you have to know when to ignore it. I also think that individuals should find foods that they enjoy that are difficult to overindulge on.

    OK, I'm going to expose why Mrs Jruzer sometimes calls me "Sheldon."

    How do you know if you're eating less, or more? How much less? How much more? If you're not measuring, how do you know?

    I'm all for developing healthy habits, and I'm much better and thoughtful about what I eat than I used to be. But the whole "less/more" thing is confusing to me.

    The scale tells you...

    I typically put on about 8-10 Lbs over the winter due in large part to an overall decrease in activity...both NEAT and EAT. I take it off in Spring when I get back on the bike and I give it another nudge with doing things like not having grains or starches with my dinner most nights (not every night)...scaling back a snack...reducing the size of my breakfast, etc.

    I don't count calories, as it was pretty bad mentally for me...I still weigh and measure certain things though, particularly if they're calorie dense and particularly if I'm trying to lose weight...maintenance is far less of an issue and I don't have to think about it too much except in winter when my activity dips.

    Most of my diet is also whole foods based which is more of a health thing and keeping my blood work in line...but it also helps me not overeat or at least not overeat often enough to change anything...

    That works for you. When I do that, it doesn't work for me. For me it is count calories so I can enjoy life. For others calorie counting doesn't put them in a good place, and if they have success intuitively eating, good for them.

    Yeah, whatever works...I'm just hard pressed to believe the vast majority will actually, realistically count calories into perpetuity. I'm hoping to be around for another 40 - 50 years...the thought of counting every calorie for the next 50 years doesn't seem particularly realistic to me.

    I'd wager the number of people who count calories for life are very few...

    I tend to agree with this. Especially counting every single calorie / bite. And really, at some point would you not learn what 80 g of rice or a large egg vs. a medium egg looks like? When paying that much attention I just don't get how it wouldn't become obvious after a while.

    But a lot o things people do seem crazy to me, so IDK why this should be different. I probably seem crazy to others.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    kimny72 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    Jruzer wrote: »
    rybo wrote: »
    I'm one who feels people should strive to eat without counting. In some situations and as a learning tool, counting can be invaluable, but I don't understand the accepted reliance on daily calorie counting for life.
    If after a period of time counting, surely you understand how much food you need and are ingesting without measuring every gram? If you have a trend up, eat less. If you are trending down, eat more. I know that relying on hunger cues can be dangerous, sometimes you follow your hunger & eat, sometimes you have to know when to ignore it. I also think that individuals should find foods that they enjoy that are difficult to overindulge on.

    OK, I'm going to expose why Mrs Jruzer sometimes calls me "Sheldon."

    How do you know if you're eating less, or more? How much less? How much more? If you're not measuring, how do you know?

    I'm all for developing healthy habits, and I'm much better and thoughtful about what I eat than I used to be. But the whole "less/more" thing is confusing to me.

    The scale tells you...

    I typically put on about 8-10 Lbs over the winter due in large part to an overall decrease in activity...both NEAT and EAT. I take it off in Spring when I get back on the bike and I give it another nudge with doing things like not having grains or starches with my dinner most nights (not every night)...scaling back a snack...reducing the size of my breakfast, etc.

    I don't count calories, as it was pretty bad mentally for me...I still weigh and measure certain things though, particularly if they're calorie dense and particularly if I'm trying to lose weight...maintenance is far less of an issue and I don't have to think about it too much except in winter when my activity dips.

    Most of my diet is also whole foods based which is more of a health thing and keeping my blood work in line...but it also helps me not overeat or at least not overeat often enough to change anything...

    That works for you. When I do that, it doesn't work for me. For me it is count calories so I can enjoy life. For others calorie counting doesn't put them in a good place, and if they have success intuitively eating, good for them.

    Yeah, whatever works...I'm just hard pressed to believe the vast majority will actually, realistically count calories into perpetuity. I'm hoping to be around for another 40 - 50 years...the thought of counting every calorie for the next 50 years doesn't seem particularly realistic to me.

    I'd wager the number of people who count calories for life are very few...

    I tend to agree with this. Especially counting every single calorie / bite. And really, at some point would you not learn what 80 g of rice or a large egg vs. a medium egg looks like? When paying that much attention I just don't get how it wouldn't become obvious after a while.

    But a lot o things people do seem crazy to me, so IDK why this should be different. I probably seem crazy to others.

    Whenever I stop paying attention for more than a week or so, my eyeballed portions start to get bigger and bigger. My brain telling me that I've done well today and totally have room for a handful of chocolate covered peanuts becomes harder to argue with. My between meals snacking in general becomes more prominent. Maybe that just means I'm weak or easily deluded by the voices in my head :lol: but it is what it is.

    If you asked me right now to pour a serving of cereal into a bowl, I could probably eyeball to within a couple of grams. If you asked me to do the same thing after a month of not logging, it would be substantially more and I would honestly not realize it. I wouldn't be a glutton or anything, but I would eventually end up back at 15 lbs heavier, swearing I hadn't changed a thing. :confused:

    This is the same for me too, but I also find logging gets burdensome after a while unless I can come up with a new motivation (trying out new macros, testing out a training plan), so what I tend to do is still weigh out a lot of stuff (oats, potatoes, pasta, ice cream, meat, nuts) even if I am not logging. I know what I generally like to eat of those things, so I weigh but don't log. (I don't find weighing burdensome at all and often do it as a game when cooking to see if I can guess, even if not logging. I do find logging less fun and recipe creation on MFP I hate.)

    I think it's cool that there are so many different ways people do this, and if I use my food scale for life, I don't mind. It's already a much more useful cooking tool for me than cups, which I never use. (I eyeball a lot too, but being able to make sure two ingredients are about equal in a recipe more easily if that's my desire can be useful.)
  • Christine_72
    Christine_72 Posts: 16,049 Member
    kimny72 wrote: »
    As a "smaller" person (I'm 5'4" currently 130 lbs) 5-10 extra lbs really weighs me down. And it took me a whole year to lose 15 lbs because I'm only lightly active. Waiting until the scale tells me that extra 10 lbs isn't water weight and is staying and then trying to lose it is like the worst version of Groundhog Day ever. I have to stay on top of it before I see the scale drift upward. I hope to some day be able to use more of a "on and off" plan - count accurately for a couple of weeks, then go a month not worrying about it, then count for a couple of weeks, etc. And as I said, if I can increase my TDEE a bit that will be easier. But for some of us, logging IS the easier, less stress method.




    At least that's the plan once I get to goal. I'm still futzing with vanity weight. When I'm not saying... nah, just recomp and eat at maintenance... I keep going back and forth.

    I'm giving myself whiplash doing the exact same thing!

  • GottaBurnEmAll
    GottaBurnEmAll Posts: 7,722 Member
    kimny72 wrote: »
    As a "smaller" person (I'm 5'4" currently 130 lbs) 5-10 extra lbs really weighs me down. And it took me a whole year to lose 15 lbs because I'm only lightly active. Waiting until the scale tells me that extra 10 lbs isn't water weight and is staying and then trying to lose it is like the worst version of Groundhog Day ever. I have to stay on top of it before I see the scale drift upward. I hope to some day be able to use more of a "on and off" plan - count accurately for a couple of weeks, then go a month not worrying about it, then count for a couple of weeks, etc. And as I said, if I can increase my TDEE a bit that will be easier. But for some of us, logging IS the easier, less stress method.




    At least that's the plan once I get to goal. I'm still futzing with vanity weight. When I'm not saying... nah, just recomp and eat at maintenance... I keep going back and forth.

    I'm giving myself whiplash doing the exact same thing!

    It's hard when you look good enough but you know you could look better but dieting is a chore and yada yada. I keep plugging at it.
  • mph323
    mph323 Posts: 3,565 Member
    kimny72 wrote: »
    As a "smaller" person (I'm 5'4" currently 130 lbs) 5-10 extra lbs really weighs me down. And it took me a whole year to lose 15 lbs because I'm only lightly active. Waiting until the scale tells me that extra 10 lbs isn't water weight and is staying and then trying to lose it is like the worst version of Groundhog Day ever. I have to stay on top of it before I see the scale drift upward. I hope to some day be able to use more of a "on and off" plan - count accurately for a couple of weeks, then go a month not worrying about it, then count for a couple of weeks, etc. And as I said, if I can increase my TDEE a bit that will be easier. But for some of us, logging IS the easier, less stress method.

    This is the crux of the issue for me too. Being short, small, and older, there's just not a lot of wiggle room. And weight loss is slow and not fun.

    My logging is loose, and I leave exercise calories on the table to account for this. That's my method of having a sustainable logging habit balanced with a need to stay on top of what would likely be inevitable weight creep.

    At least that's the plan once I get to goal. I'm still futzing with vanity weight. When I'm not saying... nah, just recomp and eat at maintenance... I keep going back and forth.

    This is where I'm at too. I plan to continue logging, but I've found a balance where I'm more likely to log 1 apple or 1/2 c veg, along with whatever the barcode on packaged food tells me (no I'm not weighing out that slice of cheese to see how many grams over or under it is :) ), and I just pour half and half into my morning coffee without measuring. I save the exact grams for larger portions of more calorie-dense stuff. I'm just as loose with my exercise, I don't log weight training and basically log everything else in fitbit steps, then eat back some but not all calories. I'm happy with the results and don't see why I couldn't continue this way indefinitely.
  • cwolfman13
    cwolfman13 Posts: 41,879 Member
    edited September 2017
    kimny72 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    Jruzer wrote: »
    rybo wrote: »
    I'm one who feels people should strive to eat without counting. In some situations and as a learning tool, counting can be invaluable, but I don't understand the accepted reliance on daily calorie counting for life.
    If after a period of time counting, surely you understand how much food you need and are ingesting without measuring every gram? If you have a trend up, eat less. If you are trending down, eat more. I know that relying on hunger cues can be dangerous, sometimes you follow your hunger & eat, sometimes you have to know when to ignore it. I also think that individuals should find foods that they enjoy that are difficult to overindulge on.

    OK, I'm going to expose why Mrs Jruzer sometimes calls me "Sheldon."

    How do you know if you're eating less, or more? How much less? How much more? If you're not measuring, how do you know?

    I'm all for developing healthy habits, and I'm much better and thoughtful about what I eat than I used to be. But the whole "less/more" thing is confusing to me.

    The scale tells you...

    I typically put on about 8-10 Lbs over the winter due in large part to an overall decrease in activity...both NEAT and EAT. I take it off in Spring when I get back on the bike and I give it another nudge with doing things like not having grains or starches with my dinner most nights (not every night)...scaling back a snack...reducing the size of my breakfast, etc.

    I don't count calories, as it was pretty bad mentally for me...I still weigh and measure certain things though, particularly if they're calorie dense and particularly if I'm trying to lose weight...maintenance is far less of an issue and I don't have to think about it too much except in winter when my activity dips.

    Most of my diet is also whole foods based which is more of a health thing and keeping my blood work in line...but it also helps me not overeat or at least not overeat often enough to change anything...

    That works for you. When I do that, it doesn't work for me. For me it is count calories so I can enjoy life. For others calorie counting doesn't put them in a good place, and if they have success intuitively eating, good for them.

    Yeah, whatever works...I'm just hard pressed to believe the vast majority will actually, realistically count calories into perpetuity. I'm hoping to be around for another 40 - 50 years...the thought of counting every calorie for the next 50 years doesn't seem particularly realistic to me.

    I'd wager the number of people who count calories for life are very few...

    I tend to agree with this. Especially counting every single calorie / bite. And really, at some point would you not learn what 80 g of rice or a large egg vs. a medium egg looks like? When paying that much attention I just don't get how it wouldn't become obvious after a while.

    But a lot o things people do seem crazy to me, so IDK why this should be different. I probably seem crazy to others.

    Whenever I stop paying attention for more than a week or so, my eyeballed portions start to get bigger and bigger. My brain telling me that I've done well today and totally have room for a handful of chocolate covered peanuts becomes harder to argue with. My between meals snacking in general becomes more prominent. Maybe that just means I'm weak or easily deluded by the voices in my head :lol: but it is what it is.

    If you asked me right now to pour a serving of cereal into a bowl, I could probably eyeball to within a couple of grams. If you asked me to do the same thing after a month of not logging, it would be substantially more and I would honestly not realize it. I wouldn't be a glutton or anything, but I would eventually end up back at 15 lbs heavier, swearing I hadn't changed a thing. :confused:

    I'm only really looking at your first sentence here... but not logging does not equal not paying attention...i very much pay attention to my diet and fitness, I just don't need it to be on paper to do so.

    It's like at work... my boss or his boss says how much is that going to cost and so we have the budget? I don't exactly have time to break out spread sheets in detail... any answer needs to be now... so I shake it around in my head and come up with something reasonable and put it on paper later as a projection and later reality or not...but I have to have a general idea to begin with which comes namely from experience doing what I do....

    then there are other expenses which are no brainer that we can absorb... which is the vast majority of them. Some people think they're biggies, but they're really just ordinary stuff...

    I treat all this the same way...
  • amusedmonkey
    amusedmonkey Posts: 10,330 Member
    Jruzer wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    Jruzer wrote: »
    rybo wrote: »
    I'm one who feels people should strive to eat without counting. In some situations and as a learning tool, counting can be invaluable, but I don't understand the accepted reliance on daily calorie counting for life.
    If after a period of time counting, surely you understand how much food you need and are ingesting without measuring every gram? If you have a trend up, eat less. If you are trending down, eat more. I know that relying on hunger cues can be dangerous, sometimes you follow your hunger & eat, sometimes you have to know when to ignore it. I also think that individuals should find foods that they enjoy that are difficult to overindulge on.

    OK, I'm going to expose why Mrs Jruzer sometimes calls me "Sheldon."

    How do you know if you're eating less, or more? How much less? How much more? If you're not measuring, how do you know?

    I'm all for developing healthy habits, and I'm much better and thoughtful about what I eat than I used to be. But the whole "less/more" thing is confusing to me.

    The scale tells you...

    I typically put on about 8-10 Lbs over the winter due in large part to an overall decrease in activity...both NEAT and EAT. I take it off in Spring when I get back on the bike and I give it another nudge with doing things like not having grains or starches with my dinner most nights (not every night)...scaling back a snack...reducing the size of my breakfast, etc.

    I don't count calories, as it was pretty bad mentally for me...I still weigh and measure certain things though, particularly if they're calorie dense and particularly if I'm trying to lose weight...maintenance is far less of an issue and I don't have to think about it too much except in winter when my activity dips.

    Most of my diet is also whole foods based which is more of a health thing and keeping my blood work in line...but it also helps me not overeat or at least not overeat often enough to change anything...

    That works for you. When I do that, it doesn't work for me. For me it is count calories so I can enjoy life. For others calorie counting doesn't put them in a good place, and if they have success intuitively eating, good for them.

    Yeah, whatever works...I'm just hard pressed to believe the vast majority will actually, realistically count calories into perpetuity. I'm hoping to be around for another 40 - 50 years...the thought of counting every calorie for the next 50 years doesn't seem particularly realistic to me.

    I'd wager the number of people who count calories for life are very few...

    I tend to agree with this. Especially counting every single calorie / bite. And really, at some point would you not learn what 80 g of rice or a large egg vs. a medium egg looks like? When paying that much attention I just don't get how it wouldn't become obvious after a while.

    But a lot o things people do seem crazy to me, so IDK why this should be different. I probably seem crazy to others.

    I think you make a fair point here. There are fine distinctions that we're skipping over. There are shades and degrees of compliance with logging.

    I'm a fairly loose logger, to be honest. My concern isn't a large egg vs a medium egg. I tend to log all eggs as the same. I don't weigh bananas or slices of bread, and I do eyeball many things. I guesstimate portion sizes at dinner. This all works for me, so for the most part logging isn't that much of a chore.

    So, my concern isn't 10 g of eggs. It's grosser quantities: how many eggs can I have? Can I have 2 or 3 eggs? How much cheese? How much ice cream can I have? If I have a 12 oz bottle of an 8% scotch ale, can I still have that cookie? What if I have the 4% abv Berliner Weisse instead? I went on a 10-mile bike ride - how much more can I / should I eat?

    My exercise and diet are pretty lumpy. If I don't track at all, how do I know how much to eat? If today's dinner was 300 kcal, and tomorrow's dinner is 800 kcal, how do I adjust if I'm not, at least in some way, paying attention?

    This is exactly what I meant when I said my eating is "modular". I don't eat the same things in the same quantities every day and my activity is not the same every day, so I don't exactly know when I can or cannot have something/have more of something unless I keep a tally. It doesn't have to be logged accurate to the gram, like I said I'm capable of roughly keeping a tally in my head and not logging, but completely disregarding calories and depending on intuitively knowing what's what or just "paying attention to food" does not work for me.

    The only other way I found to "eat less" is to have a fast day whenever I find my weight creeping up while maintaining. I do well with fasting, but I love food, so I would rather have fewer fast days by keeping track of calories.