Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Why are most mfp users against holistic nutrition?
Options
Replies
-
MikePfirrman wrote: »Stick with what you're doing. There are tons of studies out to confirm leaky gut, inflammation caused by wheat, that Round-Up was originally patented as an Antibiotic and ruins your microbiome, etc, etc, etc. You cannot convince people that don't believe in Holistic methods that it works. You can't. They point to sites that are supported or funded by Big Ag or Big Pharma like "Sciencebasedmedicine" or "GMOliteracyproject". Or worse, they point to information written by the EPA (Monsanto) or the FDA (pick whoever you want that's paid someone off).
My wife told me 3 years ago to let her die. She had Fibromyalgia so bad that she could not get out of bed. We kept going to Western docs. No F'ing clue what to do. She kept getting worse and worse. We've never been prescription people. Out of desperation, we went to a Holistic doc. With avoiding gluten/dairy and as much Round-Up as possible (and switching to a WFPB diet), my wife is back to herself. She works out five times a week and holds a job again (she's working today). She's nearly 56 in this picture with me. It's been like reverse aging for her. People can't believe she has teenage grandkids.
There billions of dollars at stake. There is an information war going on right now on the internet. Holistic docs don't have the money to influence people the way that big pharma does. That's why you can't go 10 minutes watching TV without a drug commercial. Statins do more harm than good (there's science of that), no stints don't do much. I can tell you all Fibro Rx's are garbage (except LDN) and cause way more harm than good, Glenn Frye (ex Eagle) died from the side effects of Arthritis drugs. You know what cures arthritis (scientifically proven) -- being Vegan. Yes, Holistic medicine is an inexact science. So is traditional medicine!
I'm also a consultant/recruiter. I own a small recruiting business. One of my specialties is R&D/Science based start-ups. One of the hottest areas right now in immunotherapy is changing the microbiome and identifying new species (mostly aquatic based because we all came from water) of bacteria that drastically change the microbiome and make you better. If anyone on here says this is "wooey", they don't know squat. I see scientific studies on this daily by the PhD's that I'm connected with on Linkedin.
You do you and don't worry about the sheep that believe what Big Pharma wants them to believe. Big Pharma identifies diseases as "marketing opportunities" on their research white papers. That should say enough.
Because groups like EWG are totally unbiased non-profits totally not supported by the Organic industry, right?12 -
suzannesimmons3 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »I would love to see this alleged evidence that veganism cures arthritis.
The usual response to this is you can't because "big pharma" silenced the report....
pfft! Just google it! (j/k)2 -
I don't have the time to educate most of you and won't waste my breath. GMOseralini.org is a good, basic start. Also, look up some of the information being put out by Anthony Samsel from MIT. Like I said, I work with VC companies (that stands for Venture Capital) that are investing heavily in this "tinfoil hat" stuff.
I know, Google Seralini and you won't find positive stuff. Linkedin is full of writers that Monsanto pays as hired guns and fills the first few pages of Google with discrediting information against anyone who questions Round-Ups safety.
http://www.arthritis.org/living-with-arthritis/arthritis-diet/anti-inflammatory/vegan-and-vegetarian-diets.php
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4359818/
How are Opioids doing in the US? The US takes 75% of all the Opioids in the world. Why is that? Did anyone see the 60 Minutes report on that? If Big Pharma doesn't control things in the US, why was that allowed?
Here's the link to the VA study by our own government that determined they cause more harm than good.
https://www.research.va.gov/currents/spring2015/spring2015-19.cfm
Here's one of the many studies linking wheat to gut inflammation.
https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2016-10/sh-nsl101016.php
https://www.genengnews.com/gen-news-highlights/western-diet-linked-to-microbiome-changes-and-chronic-liver-inflammation/81254641
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QqR68BY6F4
Anthony Samsel (no matter what Monsanto's disinformation division says about him, yes one of their Sr VPs admitted in a public meeting they have an entire division to discredit scientists) is a former farmer and MIT scientist.
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/11/3/16599072/stent-chest-pain-treatment-angina-not-effective
Here's on Stents (what I said above about Stents). Why do we spend Billions on Stents and Statins when they don't do a darn thing??
I'm not trying to argue, just telling the OP there is merit to Holistic treatments.
http://www.global-engage.com/life-science/list-of-microbiome-companies-and-investors/
https://www.wsj.com/articles/microbiome-companies-attract-big-investments-1474250460
I know, the WSJ (Wall Street Journal) is such a hack, tin foil wearing publication...
http://www.americanpharmaceuticalreview.com/Featured-Articles/335781-New-Ventures-In-The-Microbiome/
There is a revolution going on in immunotherapy currently. It's going to change everything from treatment of cancers to neurological diseases to Autoimmune disease. The common theme they are finding is it all starts with dysbiosis (if you want, "leaky" or impaired gut and digestion issues).
Make fun all you want. It simply shows your ignorance.
24 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »Stick with what you're doing. There are tons of studies out to confirm leaky gut, inflammation caused by wheat, that Round-Up was originally patented as an Antibiotic and ruins your microbiome, etc, etc, etc. You cannot convince people that don't believe in Holistic methods that it works. You can't. They point to sites that are supported or funded by Big Ag or Big Pharma like "Sciencebasedmedicine" or "GMOliteracyproject". Or worse, they point to information written by the EPA (Monsanto) or the FDA (pick whoever you want that's paid someone off).
My wife told me 3 years ago to let her die. She had Fibromyalgia so bad that she could not get out of bed. We kept going to Western docs. No F'ing clue what to do. She kept getting worse and worse. We've never been prescription people. Out of desperation, we went to a Holistic doc. With avoiding gluten/dairy and as much Round-Up as possible (and switching to a WFPB diet), my wife is back to herself. She works out five times a week and holds a job again (she's working today). She's nearly 56 in this picture with me. It's been like reverse aging for her. People can't believe she has teenage grandkids.
There billions of dollars at stake. There is an information war going on right now on the internet. Holistic docs don't have the money to influence people the way that big pharma does. That's why you can't go 10 minutes watching TV without a drug commercial. Statins do more harm than good (there's science of that), no stints don't do much. I can tell you all Fibro Rx's are garbage (except LDN) and cause way more harm than good, Glenn Frye (ex Eagle) died from the side effects of Arthritis drugs. You know what cures arthritis (scientifically proven) -- being Vegan. Yes, Holistic medicine is an inexact science. So is traditional medicine!
I'm also a consultant/recruiter. I own a small recruiting business. One of my specialties is R&D/Science based start-ups. One of the hottest areas right now in immunotherapy is changing the microbiome and identifying new species (mostly aquatic based because we all came from water) of bacteria that drastically change the microbiome and make you better. If anyone on here says this is "wooey", they don't know squat. I see scientific studies on this daily by the PhD's that I'm connected with on Linkedin.
You do you and don't worry about the sheep that believe what Big Pharma wants them to believe. Big Pharma identifies diseases as "marketing opportunities" on their research white papers. That should say enough.
Three years ago I was severely depressed and often bedridden. I have fibromyalgia, celiac disease, chronic migraine, and psoriatic arthritis.
I was often bedridden, chronically fatigued, and walked with a cane.
You know what got me better?
Losing weight, proper medical care including biologic drugs and prescription NSAIDS for my arthritis and botox for my migraines along well as SNRI's and anti-epileptics as part of that protocol, and starting a regular exercise program that I began with simply walking very slowly one day with a cane, down to my corner and back to my house.
I have the same recovery story as your wife, and traditional medicine played a huge part in it. So tell me again how "Big Pharma" steered me wrong?
Editing to add because I must: the parallels in my story and your wifes? A determination that what we were applying to get us on the road to recovery and applying it was going to get us there. We were the ones who still had to do the work. You wife didn't go from bedridden to working out 5 days a week. At some point, she had to decide to start eating better and that she wanted to get some activity in her life. Her efforts to make positive changes in her life and her determination that her efforts were going to make a difference? Those were what mattered. Not avoiding gluten and dairy and roundup.14 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »I don't have the time to educate most of you and won't waste my breath. GMOseralini.com is a good, basic start. Also, look up some of the information being put out by Anthony Samsel from MIT. Like I said, I work with VC companies (that stands for Venture Capital) that are investing heavily in this "tinfoil hat" stuff.
http://www.arthritis.org/living-with-arthritis/arthritis-diet/anti-inflammatory/vegan-and-vegetarian-diets.php
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4359818/
Your first link: "There are various studies of the impact of these diets on inflammation. They are mostly small and the results are mixed."
Absolutely nothing like " You know what cures arthritis (scientifically proven) -- being Vegan."
You're just like every other person who makes wild claims regarding alternative medicine. Big claim, no proof, misrepresenting studies and telling people to do their own research rather than backing your claims.18 -
suzannesimmons3 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »I don't have the time to educate most of you and won't waste my breath. GMOseralini.com is a good, basic start. Also, look up some of the information being put out by Anthony Samsel from MIT. Like I said, I work with VC companies (that stands for Venture Capital) that are investing heavily in this "tinfoil hat" stuff.
http://www.arthritis.org/living-with-arthritis/arthritis-diet/anti-inflammatory/vegan-and-vegetarian-diets.php
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4359818/
Your first link: "There are various studies of the impact of these diets on inflammation. They are mostly small and the results are mixed."
Absolutely nothing like " You know what cures arthritis (scientifically proven) -- being Vegan."
You're just like every other person who makes wild claims regarding alternative medicine. Big claim, no proof, misrepresenting studies and telling people to do their own research rather than backing your claims.
Don't forget rude....because you know we have to be stoopid
I find it ironic when someone calls me a sheep, but expects their wild claims to be accepted with absolutely nothing to back them up.10 -
@TenderBlender667 I would love to hear your thoughts on your thread
4 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »Stick with what you're doing.
You don't even know what she's doing. Maybe she's in a holistic program that thinks carbs are the problem, for example.
Also, evidence for leaky gut?Round-Up was originally patented as an Antibiotic and ruins your microbiome, etc, etc, etc.
Setting aside the merits (or lack thereof) of this claim, care to flesh out how you think it affects things (or relates to what OP is being taught). Here's a piece showing some of the ridiculousness of some Round-Up based claims: https://www.snopes.com/food/tainted/roundupwheat.aspYou cannot convince people that don't believe in Holistic methods that it works. You can't.
Depends on what you mean by "holistic methods" and "it working." If you mean that things like yoga and massage can be helpful, that lifestyle matters, that exercise and eating well help with health, of course it matters. After all, in a way losing weight is a holistic approach.
If you mean that cancer should be treated with diet and shots of ACV and not actual medicine, no. If you mean children should not be immunized, no. So on.They point to sites that are supported or funded by Big Ag or Big Pharma like "Sciencebasedmedicine" or "GMOliteracyproject". Or worse, they point to information written by the EPA (Monsanto) or the FDA (pick whoever you want that's paid someone off).
LOL -- so the EPA is another name for Monsanto?One of the hottest areas right now in immunotherapy is changing the microbiome and identifying new species (mostly aquatic based because we all came from water) of bacteria that drastically change the microbiome and make you better. If anyone on here says this is "wooey", they don't know squat. I see scientific studies on this daily by the PhD's that I'm connected with on Linkedin.
Yes, the effect of the microbiome is a popular (hot) topic right now, and how hot it is rather belies your claim that Big Pharma is putting the kibosh on discussions of it (Big Pharma is set to profit by it, I'm sure).
We don't know enough about the microbiome to exactly know what is desirable, except, sure, careful with overuse of antibiotics and probably eating foods with a good amount of fiber is a good idea.
I see 0 evidence to suggest that some holistic doctor can fix everything by fixing my microbiome (if I had some health problem, that is) or that a holistic doc would be a better option for this than a real doctor.7 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »MichelleLaree13 wrote: »Holistic medicine is fascinating and can be an extremely beneficial adjunct to Western medicine. My problem with holistic medicine is it is often administered recklessly. When administered properly, I think holistic medicine is great. What we take in greatly effects how our body functions. Personally, I take D mannose, cranberries and apple cider vinegar for UTI treatment/prevention. This treatment has to do with preventing bacterial growth through an alkaline environment and flushing the bacteria out. I know to look out for flank pain, fever and such which could be signs of of dangerous complications. On the other hand, I have seen naturalpaths prescribe cranberries without asking about other symptoms beyond a basic UTI....
Actually both Holistic and Western medicine can be done in a way that is awesome or equally awful. Western medicine just is a much younger discipline. Some health care providers seem to be blending the two with some success.
I wasn’t trying to knock the wonderful advancements of Western medicine. In all disciplines, there are providers with verying degrees of knowledge. There are numerous examples of life saving treatment that Western medicine provides. A couple of the many examples are antibiotics and vaccination.
1 -
Alatariel75 wrote: »suzannesimmons3 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »I don't have the time to educate most of you and won't waste my breath. GMOseralini.com is a good, basic start. Also, look up some of the information being put out by Anthony Samsel from MIT. Like I said, I work with VC companies (that stands for Venture Capital) that are investing heavily in this "tinfoil hat" stuff.
http://www.arthritis.org/living-with-arthritis/arthritis-diet/anti-inflammatory/vegan-and-vegetarian-diets.php
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4359818/
Your first link: "There are various studies of the impact of these diets on inflammation. They are mostly small and the results are mixed."
Absolutely nothing like " You know what cures arthritis (scientifically proven) -- being Vegan."
You're just like every other person who makes wild claims regarding alternative medicine. Big claim, no proof, misrepresenting studies and telling people to do their own research rather than backing your claims.
Don't forget rude....because you know we have to be stoopid
I find it ironic when someone calls me a sheep, but expects their wild claims to be accepted with absolutely nothing to back them up.
Wake up, sheeple! He has Mercola, what do you mean? ;-)
(Sorry, could not resist. You know I'm kidding.)8 -
MichelleLaree13 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »MichelleLaree13 wrote: »Holistic medicine is fascinating and can be an extremely beneficial adjunct to Western medicine. My problem with holistic medicine is it is often administered recklessly. When administered properly, I think holistic medicine is great. What we take in greatly effects how our body functions. Personally, I take D mannose, cranberries and apple cider vinegar for UTI treatment/prevention. This treatment has to do with preventing bacterial growth through an alkaline environment and flushing the bacteria out. I know to look out for flank pain, fever and such which could be signs of of dangerous complications. On the other hand, I have seen naturalpaths prescribe cranberries without asking about other symptoms beyond a basic UTI....
Actually both Holistic and Western medicine can be done in a way that is awesome or equally awful. Western medicine just is a much younger discipline. Some health care providers seem to be blending the two with some success.
I wasn’t trying to knock the wonderful advancements of Western medicine. In all disciplines, there are providers with verying degrees of knowledge. There are numerous examples of life saving treatment that Western medicine provides. A couple of the many examples are antibiotics and vaccination.
I still think Aaron's post upthread about the problems with the term "western medicine" was right on.5 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »suzannesimmons3 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »I don't have the time to educate most of you and won't waste my breath. GMOseralini.com is a good, basic start. Also, look up some of the information being put out by Anthony Samsel from MIT. Like I said, I work with VC companies (that stands for Venture Capital) that are investing heavily in this "tinfoil hat" stuff.
http://www.arthritis.org/living-with-arthritis/arthritis-diet/anti-inflammatory/vegan-and-vegetarian-diets.php
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4359818/
Your first link: "There are various studies of the impact of these diets on inflammation. They are mostly small and the results are mixed."
Absolutely nothing like " You know what cures arthritis (scientifically proven) -- being Vegan."
You're just like every other person who makes wild claims regarding alternative medicine. Big claim, no proof, misrepresenting studies and telling people to do their own research rather than backing your claims.
Don't forget rude....because you know we have to be stoopid
I find it ironic when someone calls me a sheep, but expects their wild claims to be accepted with absolutely nothing to back them up.
Wake up, sheeple! He has Mercola, what do you mean? ;-)
(Sorry, could not resist. You know I'm kidding.)
I'm not a Mercola fan either but it was the most easy video to understand. I felt that might be important to keep it simple.
Too bad you're not open minded enough to watch it. You posted your response within 2 minutes. The video is 45 minutes. The 10 most pertinent minutes start roughly at the 20 minute mark.
17 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »MichelleLaree13 wrote: »Holistic medicine is fascinating and can be an extremely beneficial adjunct to Western medicine. My problem with holistic medicine is it is often administered recklessly. When administered properly, I think holistic medicine is great. What we take in greatly effects how our body functions. Personally, I take D mannose, cranberries and apple cider vinegar for UTI treatment/prevention. This treatment has to do with preventing bacterial growth through an alkaline environment and flushing the bacteria out. I know to look out for flank pain, fever and such which could be signs of of dangerous complications. On the other hand, I have seen naturalpaths prescribe cranberries without asking about other symptoms beyond a basic UTI....
Actually both Holistic and Western medicine can be done in a way that is awesome or equally awful. Western medicine just is a much younger discipline. Some health care providers seem to be blending the two with some success.
Exactly, it's called Integrative Medicine. My wife went to a practice with 3 MDs and one ND (Naturopathic Doctor). I don't buy all of what they told her to do either. The first Holistic doc we went to only did shots in her (Fibromyalgia) tenderpoints. Yes, it helped her immediate pain tremendously, but I felt he was doing nothing to cure her.
There was a Forbes article in 2011 talking about how Integrative had no place in medical schools. There was one just this year about how nearly all medical schools have adopted Integrative care in one form or another.
Acupuncture has been around 3000 years. It has only been scientifically proven to have merit in the last ten.
Realize ALL the money for studies is being done by pharmaceutical companies, because they have the cash. Dr Mark Hyman begs for money to study Holistic interests at the Cleveland Clinic. He can't get a dime. Why? There's no profit in curing people.
21 -
Modern medicine seems to do more damage than healing. Truth is that people are prideful they would rather listen to the government and doctors instead of listening to holistic health professionals. I had a friend I tried to help by giving her some natural remedies she disregarded EVERYTHING I said that's when I realized that pride does come before a fall.29
-
MikePfirrman wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »suzannesimmons3 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »I don't have the time to educate most of you and won't waste my breath. GMOseralini.com is a good, basic start. Also, look up some of the information being put out by Anthony Samsel from MIT. Like I said, I work with VC companies (that stands for Venture Capital) that are investing heavily in this "tinfoil hat" stuff.
http://www.arthritis.org/living-with-arthritis/arthritis-diet/anti-inflammatory/vegan-and-vegetarian-diets.php
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4359818/
Your first link: "There are various studies of the impact of these diets on inflammation. They are mostly small and the results are mixed."
Absolutely nothing like " You know what cures arthritis (scientifically proven) -- being Vegan."
You're just like every other person who makes wild claims regarding alternative medicine. Big claim, no proof, misrepresenting studies and telling people to do their own research rather than backing your claims.
Don't forget rude....because you know we have to be stoopid
I find it ironic when someone calls me a sheep, but expects their wild claims to be accepted with absolutely nothing to back them up.
Wake up, sheeple! He has Mercola, what do you mean? ;-)
(Sorry, could not resist. You know I'm kidding.)
I'm not a Mercola fan either but it was the most easy video to understand. I felt that might be important to keep it simple.
Too bad you're not open minded enough to watch it. You posted your response within 2 minutes. The video is 45 minutes. The 10 most pertinent minutes start roughly at the 20 minute mark.
I love how you think that no one had ever heard in Mercola until you posted that video.
And it's charming how you keep insulting people's intelligence. Really engaging.16 -
@ Lemur - it was found that Monsanto was ghost writing in leaked emails most of what the EPA put out on Round-Up because they don't have a budget.
I never said Holistic docs can fix everything but his has merit (and in many cases more) than traditional practice, which is broken and revolves around pain management and 15 minute appointments to determine what pill to prescribe. We don't have the time or resources to make people eat better and take care of themselves. Our first Holistic appointments were well over 2 hours.
As for the microbiome, we now know a lot more than what you're saying. They have even identified certain bacteria lacking in chronic illness.22 -
GlorianasTears wrote: »Modern medicine seems to do more damage than healing. Truth is that people are prideful they would rather listen to the government and doctors instead of listening to holistic health professionals. I had a friend I tried to help by giving her some natural remedies she disregarded EVERYTHING I said that's when I realized that pride does come before a fall.
And yet people are living longer, and people who do things like opt for "natural" alternatives to cancer are dying at higher rates because they put off real treatment to the point that said treatment no longer works. Natural doesn't equal safe or effective. Natural is also not regulated meaning they don't have to actually prove it works. And I'd rather get medical advice from a real doctor who did real time in real education than someone who thinks unproven natural remedies are superior to medical science while often not knowing how the human body even works.9 -
GlorianasTears wrote: »Modern medicine seems to do more damage than healing. Truth is that people are prideful they would rather listen to the government and doctors instead of listening to holistic health professionals. I had a friend I tried to help by giving her some natural remedies she disregarded EVERYTHING I said that's when I realized that pride does come before a fall.
My grandfather lived another 40 years rather than dying from heart failure due to having open heart surgery - modern medicine.
My brother had a hernia that caused him constant pain until he had surgery that went smoothly and left him pain free - modern medicine.
My coworker is 10 years cancer free after chemo - modern medicine.
I don't know anyone who has had polio - modern medicine.
Yeah modern medicine is really screwing *kitten* up.
I happen to think holistic/alternative treatments can be quite useful in tandem with "modern" medicine and with full disclosure between all practicioners. But the need by many alternative believers to devalue and dismiss the accomplishments and benefits of modern medicine is one of several things that takes the legs out from under whatever legit arguments they might have.12
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 391.3K Introduce Yourself
- 43.4K Getting Started
- 259.6K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.6K Food and Nutrition
- 47.3K Recipes
- 232.3K Fitness and Exercise
- 387 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.7K Motivation and Support
- 7.8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.2K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.2K MyFitnessPal Information
- 22 News and Announcements
- 911 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.3K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions