Anyone read the latest research on Keto by Alan Aragon?
Replies
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stevencloser wrote: »"I never said keto was the smart way" says the person who's called KarblessKreature who spends the rest of his post praising how awesome keto is and that carbs are like drugs.
Also reread my post.
And a n=1 would refer to one person which is me.
And if I must I’ll go and look up the studies about carb/sugar withdrawal and it’s resemblance to a drug withdrawal. Sure it will not be hard to find sir. And also have a great day12 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »You completely misunderstood me.
1. I don't really eat much in the way of anything processed. Most of my carbs are from vegetables, legumes, tubers and whole grains. Oh and dairy. I'm a vegetarian. I eat a lot of cottage cheese and Greek yogurt.
2. I was trying to bring the post back to topic and see if you had a training goal influencing your decision to try CKD.
As for he CKD, I enjoy n=1 experiment trying to maximize my health and longevity. So I’m constantly running one on myself with regards to something. For myself I seem to have a high carb tolerance. But that’s for another thread. Basically see what happens6 -
KarblessKreature wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »"I never said keto was the smart way" says the person who's called KarblessKreature who spends the rest of his post praising how awesome keto is and that carbs are like drugs.
Also reread my post.
And a n=1 would refer to one person which is me.
And if I must I’ll go and look up the studies about carb/sugar withdrawal and it’s resemblance to a drug withdrawal. Sure it will not be hard to find sir. And also have a great day
Great, please post it I'd love to read it.2 -
Basically called the mesolimbic pathway. Search mesolimbic pathway and sugar and you’ll get many many many studies on it. Pick which ever you want. Basically stimulates how far your willing to go to get something. And sugar stimulates it just like a drug. Happy reading.15
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KarblessKreature wrote: »Never said keto was the smart way. Thats how you, who probably doesn’t like keto, reacted to what I wrote. Reread it. And for low carb vs keto it’s a whole different ball game my friend. Like I did said you didn’t even give keto a proper try. Most processed carbs cause some type of inflammation in the body. Can’t fight the science. And like I said I will try anything that will better my long term health and do a proper n=1 on it. I was fine even flourishing on a carb based diet. Keto was an attempt to help my sciatica issue (from too much sports, injury in my 20’s and genetics it seems) wanting to lean out a bit and gain lean mass(~1# a month). Didn’t like going thru a bulking cycle and having to cut after ward. So a super slow bulk for me from now on. Worked wonders on those accounts and seem to be chugging along just fine. Like I said you dismissed keto cause your mentally hook on carbs, body treats them like a drug. You never even really tried keto and look down upon it. I’ll be switching to a CKD at around year mark after staring keto to see how that works for me. And I’m sure I’ll which ever works best I’ll stick with. But like I said do you. Later and pass the butter.
You should probably actually look at the science. No human model supports that carbs are addictive or that we are hooked on them. If you actually had human model data, I would love to see it.
And process "carbs" tend to be very high in fats. Isolating the carbs from those foods is a bit short sighted. If you really want to look at real carbs, maybe look at how the blue zones are the healthiest and longest living cultures. Maybe look at the plethora of studies that support the benefits of fruits, veggies, and whole grains. Interestingly enough, chronic inflammation is largely driven by obesity. Weight loss alone decreases inflammation.
And I am pro-all diets to include keto. I don't and won't do keto because I can't get enough volume through it, but I worked with plenty of people who have used it. In fact, I set up some TKD/CKD diets for some of my keto clients because of the studies like the OP is about. The fact is, when it comes to muscle building and recovery, protein + carbs is much better than protein + fats. Fats definitely have their place, especially UFA.7 -
KarblessKreature wrote: »Basically called the mesolimbic pathway. Search mesolimbic pathway and sugar and you’ll get many many many studies on it. Pick which ever you want. Basically stimulates how far your willing to go to get something. And sugar stimulates it just like a drug. Happy reading.
Like: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2714381/
Activated by both sugar and fat. Although, these are based on animal models.5 -
Next time when you at the grocery store take a look at most of the boxes low fat high carb my friend.
And the majority or studies, probably 99% use animal models. So why in this instance is it not a real study and the data not applicable? That makes no sense just, cause you say so? Also I believe the blue zone diets would be considered medium carb diets, and low carb especially compared to the ASD. So there’re consumption of processed carbs is minimal at best so the blue zone diet is a split between the 3 macros so it’s not high carb. They also have a higher fiber content so they’re net carbs are lower. Like I do in keto use net carbs and make sure to get my fiber in. Also I never said that keto was the best at maximizing muscle gains. I said that one can lean bulk on keto that’s all. I’m so glad everyone comes out to say I’m not against keto in their post which comes across as against keto lol.11 -
orangejulius wrote: »
Calories in < calories out will result in weight loss no matter what you put in your body but putting the right things in your body matter it's the difference of building your house with straw or bricks.
Sure, all compared diets may work essentially the same when perfectly followed (cal in<cal out), but where Keto has the edge (for me and many others) is the diet is highly satiating. After initial adjustment you simply aren't as hungry, what you eat is very satisfying, and (if you aren't a fake baker or using a ton of artificial sweetners in everything) you lose your cravings for sweets. So while it may not "work better", it is easier to stick to for a lot of people.
Also, many people feel better when they eat ketogenically. My arthritis is much improved when I am not eating grains and sugars. I also sleep better and have less brain fog. YMMV
Yeah i totally agree. I'm going to give keto another go. I felt foggy about t days then I binged carbs. I truly think keto is for me...just have to try harder3 -
KarblessKreature wrote: »Basically called the mesolimbic pathway. Search mesolimbic pathway and sugar and you’ll get many many many studies on it. Pick which ever you want. Basically stimulates how far your willing to go to get something. And sugar stimulates it just like a drug. Happy reading.
You said you'd post the study. I've never found one that says it is like a drug withdrawl.
I've never seen people steal or *kitten* to fund their sugar addiction4 -
KarblessKreature wrote: »Next time when you at the grocery store take a look at most of the boxes low fat high carb my friend.
And the majority or studies, probably 99% use animal models. So why in this instance is it not a real study and the data not applicable? That makes no sense just, cause you say so? Also I believe the blue zone diets would be considered medium carb diets, and low carb especially compared to the ASD. So there’re consumption of processed carbs is minimal at best so the blue zone diet is a split between the 3 macros so it’s not high carb. They also have a higher fiber content so they’re net carbs are lower. Like I do in keto use net carbs and make sure to get my fiber in. Also I never said that keto was the best at maximizing muscle gains. I said that one can lean bulk on keto that’s all. I’m so glad everyone comes out to say I’m not against keto in their post which comes across as against keto lol.
Blue zones are 70% carb. So no, they aren't moderate carb. And I am very familiar with low fat foods because I cut fats because their inability to satiate me. But I don't look at low fat junk food, I consume things like fat free greek yogurt, plenty of lean cuts of meats, seafood (ahi tuna/shrimp), oats, fruits, veggies, legumes, etc... Essentially, I concentrate on whole foods but make room for some treats. When I consume fats, it generally comes from avocado's and oily fish. And please feel free to look at my diary if you want to check. My bloodwork demonstrates impeccable health and no inflammation.
So I wouldn't assume that those who are lower fat, eat nothing but junk food. Just like those of who shouldn't assume that those that are following ketogenic are eating nothing by processed meats, pork rinds and other fried junk foods. Both diets and anywhere in between can be done in a healthy and unhealthy way.
eta: I think it's funny that any discussion of actual research data that doesn't support keto is considered anti-keto instead of pro-science. This has been a debate for awhile that keto is suboptimal for muscle building and lifting. This supports those discussion.
Also, animal models are good for supporting preliminary research and to prove that additional human research should occur. Often it does not transpose to humans (i.e., sugar addiction).8 -
Why do so many people who enjoy keto get all tied up in knots when people say it simply isn't for everyone and it is not superior to any other way of eating. If fat is satiating to you, brilliant. If it helps health conditions you have (still waiting to hear how it helps sciatica, a nerve compression problem) then also brilliant. Unsubstantiated claims about how much better it is than evil carbs, you are going to get pushback.
I am not against keto. I am against any dietary evangelists. I feel the same way about people who are vegan because they think it a superior way of eating, not because of ethics. I feel the same way about vegans who aren't eating enough protein because "we don't need so much protein".
I am for everyone finding a way of eating that meets nutritional, psychological and sustainability needs. Short story, full stop.12 -
KarblessKreature wrote: »Next time when you at the grocery store take a look at most of the boxes low fat high carb my friend.
And the majority or studies, probably 99% use animal models. So why in this instance is it not a real study and the data not applicable? That makes no sense just, cause you say so? Also I believe the blue zone diets would be considered medium carb diets, and low carb especially compared to the ASD. So there’re consumption of processed carbs is minimal at best so the blue zone diet is a split between the 3 macros so it’s not high carb. They also have a higher fiber content so they’re net carbs are lower. Like I do in keto use net carbs and make sure to get my fiber in. Also I never said that keto was the best at maximizing muscle gains. I said that one can lean bulk on keto that’s all. I’m so glad everyone comes out to say I’m not against keto in their post which comes across as against keto lol.
I live in Italy--one of the "blue zones". The carb consumption here is definately not medium carb--it's high carb. We eat pasta, pizza or rice everyday, combined with breads, grains, vegetables and fruits. Proteins are not the main plate for the majority. So--where are you getting your information?11 -
VintageFeline wrote: »Why do so many people who enjoy keto get all tied up in knots when people say it simply isn't for everyone and it is not superior to any other way of eating. If fat is satiating to you, brilliant. If it helps health conditions you have (still waiting to hear how it helps sciatica, a nerve compression problem) then also brilliant. Unsubstantiated claims about how much better it is than evil carbs, you are going to get pushback.
I am not against keto. I am against any dietary evangelists. I feel the same way about people who are vegan because they think it a superior way of eating, not because of ethics. I feel the same way about vegans who aren't eating enough protein because "we don't need so much protein".
I am for everyone finding a way of eating that meets nutritional, psychological and sustainability needs. Short story, full stop.
I need to pinch that sentence.2 -
So I wouldn't assume that those who are lower fat, eat nothing but junk food. Just like those of who shouldn't assume that those that are following ketogenic are eating nothing by processed meats, pork rinds and other fried junk foods. Both diets and anywhere in between can be done in a healthy and unhealthy way.
eta: I think it's funny that any discussion of actual research data that doesn't support keto is considered anti-keto instead of pro-science. This has been a debate for awhile that keto is suboptimal for muscle building and lifting. This supports those discussion.I am not against keto. I am against any dietary evangelists.
I am for everyone finding a way of eating that meets nutritional, psychological and sustainability needs. Short story, full stop.
Both of these sentiments express my thoughts on the topic better than I could. Especially the bolded. Thanks1 -
Once again reread my post. Never said keto was the best diet to build muscle the fastest. Just that one could slow bulk. And once again all these post are indeed directly against keto. And also sugar addiction is real and withdrawals symptoms are also. You can’t refute the science of the mesolimbic pathway. Yes they just ruin their health cause no one will call buying a candy bar a waste of $ or a drug lol. Band processed sugars and see what happens. Yes robbing pillaging murdering would ensue.
And blue zone diets 70% carbs I think not. And from what I remember quite a few of those places consume high amounts of fish/eggs/dairy(goat). And majority of their carbs are unprocessed and are from high fiber veggies/nuts/seeds. They also consume way less calories then here, so gram for gram are lower in carbs So compared to the AMD this would be considered low carb. All of these things would give them a relatively equal distribution of macros leaning toward a slightly higher carb intake maybe a 40/30/30. For arguments sake I’ll give you 60/20/20 but 100g carbs is low carb here in America my friend.
As for Italy being in the blue zone it isn’t only Sardinia is. I’m also quite family with Italian food culture and your wrong, they don’t eat tons of processed carbs. Btw these are the 5 places that are Blue Zone
Okinawa (Japan); Sardinia (Italy); Nicoya (Costa Rica); Icaria (Greece) and among the Seventh-day Adventists in Loma Linda, California
As for the sciatica issue, processed carbs cause inflammation in the body even if you don’t really notice it with any outward symptoms. When I cut them out my back especially and other joints felt considerably better(probably could of gotten the same by cutting the processed carb out my old diet). The last aleve I had was about a week into keto, since then none.
Also never said that the studies data wasn’t relative, quite the opposite in fact. Believe I said I would use anything that I deemed better for my overall health. So also like I said after a full year of being fat-adapted I’ll switch to a CKD for a year and see how that goes. I’m always n=1. Cant wait for the OP’s study to finish knowledge is king.
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KarblessKreature wrote: »Once again reread my post. Never said keto was the best diet to build muscle the fastest. Just that one could slow bulk. And once again all these post are indeed directly against keto. And also sugar addiction is real and withdrawals symptoms are also. You can’t refute the science of the mesolimbic pathway. Yes they just ruin their health cause no one will call buying a candy bar a waste of $ or a drug lol. Band processed sugars and see what happens. Yes robbing pillaging murdering would ensue.
And blue zone diets 70% carbs I think not. And from what I remember quite a few of those places consume high amounts of fish/eggs/dairy(goat). And majority of their carbs are unprocessed and are from high fiber veggies/nuts/seeds. They also consume way less calories then here, so gram for gram are lower in carbs So compared to the AMD this would be considered low carb. All of these things would give them a relatively equal distribution of macros leaning toward a slightly higher carb intake maybe a 40/30/30. For arguments sake I’ll give you 60/20/20 but 100g carbs is low carb here in America my friend.
As for Italy being in the blue zone it isn’t only Sardinia is. I’m also quite family with Italian food culture and your wrong, they don’t eat tons of processed carbs. Btw these are the 5 places that are Blue Zone
Okinawa (Japan); Sardinia (Italy); Nicoya (Costa Rica); Icaria (Greece) and among the Seventh-day Adventists in Loma Linda, California
As for the sciatica issue, processed carbs cause inflammation in the body even if you don’t really notice it with any outward symptoms. When I cut them out my back especially and other joints felt considerably better(probably could of gotten the same by cutting the processed carb out my old diet). The last aleve I had was about a week into keto, since then none.
Also never said that the studies data wasn’t relative, quite the opposite in fact. Believe I said I would use anything that I deemed better for my overall health. So also like I said after a full year of being fat-adapted I’ll switch to a CKD for a year and see how that goes. I’m always n=1. Cant wait for the OP’s study to finish knowledge is king.
I LIVE here. YOU think wrong. Carbs are king in Italy. Come on over and I'll show you.9 -
I LIVE here. YOU think wrong. Carbs are king in Italy. Come on over and I'll show you.
Guess my mom whom didn’t leave Italy till she was 22 and her family who had a farm and vineyard weren’t Italians. Most meals I ate consisted of fresh veggies, fresh seafoods/meats, fresh dairy and a smaller amount of breads and pasta when there. Breakfast was small and had no processed carbs sometimes bread. Large lunch of veggies meats cheese with a serving of pasta/bread. Then a smaller supper usually without pasta but maybe bread. So carbs arent king there my friend. This is why most Italians aren’t overweight or fighting metabolic syndromes. The ones who are just overeat. That why you hear of the heathy Mediterranean diet. Have a nice day8 -
KarblessKreature wrote: »Once again reread my post. Never said keto was the best diet to build muscle the fastest. Just that one could slow bulk. And once again all these post are indeed directly against keto. And also sugar addiction is real and withdrawals symptoms are also. You can’t refute the science of the mesolimbic pathway. Yes they just ruin their health cause no one will call buying a candy bar a waste of $ or a drug lol. Band processed sugars and see what happens. Yes robbing pillaging murdering would ensue.
And blue zone diets 70% carbs I think not. And from what I remember quite a few of those places consume high amounts of fish/eggs/dairy(goat). And majority of their carbs are unprocessed and are from high fiber veggies/nuts/seeds. They also consume way less calories then here, so gram for gram are lower in carbs So compared to the AMD this would be considered low carb. All of these things would give them a relatively equal distribution of macros leaning toward a slightly higher carb intake maybe a 40/30/30. For arguments sake I’ll give you 60/20/20 but 100g carbs is low carb here in America my friend.
As for Italy being in the blue zone it isn’t only Sardinia is. I’m also quite family with Italian food culture and your wrong, they don’t eat tons of processed carbs. Btw these are the 5 places that are Blue Zone
Okinawa (Japan); Sardinia (Italy); Nicoya (Costa Rica); Icaria (Greece) and among the Seventh-day Adventists in Loma Linda, California
As for the sciatica issue, processed carbs cause inflammation in the body even if you don’t really notice it with any outward symptoms. When I cut them out my back especially and other joints felt considerably better(probably could of gotten the same by cutting the processed carb out my old diet). The last aleve I had was about a week into keto, since then none.
Also never said that the studies data wasn’t relative, quite the opposite in fact. Believe I said I would use anything that I deemed better for my overall health. So also like I said after a full year of being fat-adapted I’ll switch to a CKD for a year and see how that goes. I’m always n=1. Cant wait for the OP’s study to finish knowledge is king.
Read and weep. Also, Tukisenta & Ewe tribes eating huge amounts of carbs(+90% carbs), or the Kitavans (69% carb diet), or the Hadza (lots of honey, fruit, animal products) or the Kung San (moderate carbs with lots of nuts), or the Ewe Tribe (who eat a diet of basically NOTHING BUT insulin-spiking carbs ... literaly 98% of the diet). Here is a Kitavan(those carbs are really fattening huh)
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KarblessKreature wrote: »Once again reread my post. Never said keto was the best diet to build muscle the fastest. Just that one could slow bulk. And once again all these post are indeed directly against keto. And also sugar addiction is real and withdrawals symptoms are also. You can’t refute the science of the mesolimbic pathway. Yes they just ruin their health cause no one will call buying a candy bar a waste of $ or a drug lol. Band processed sugars and see what happens. Yes robbing pillaging murdering would ensue.
And blue zone diets 70% carbs I think not. And from what I remember quite a few of those places consume high amounts of fish/eggs/dairy(goat). And majority of their carbs are unprocessed and are from high fiber veggies/nuts/seeds. They also consume way less calories then here, so gram for gram are lower in carbs So compared to the AMD this would be considered low carb. All of these things would give them a relatively equal distribution of macros leaning toward a slightly higher carb intake maybe a 40/30/30. For arguments sake I’ll give you 60/20/20 but 100g carbs is low carb here in America my friend.
As for Italy being in the blue zone it isn’t only Sardinia is. I’m also quite family with Italian food culture and your wrong, they don’t eat tons of processed carbs. Btw these are the 5 places that are Blue Zone
Okinawa (Japan); Sardinia (Italy); Nicoya (Costa Rica); Icaria (Greece) and among the Seventh-day Adventists in Loma Linda, California
As for the sciatica issue, processed carbs cause inflammation in the body even if you don’t really notice it with any outward symptoms. When I cut them out my back especially and other joints felt considerably better(probably could of gotten the same by cutting the processed carb out my old diet). The last aleve I had was about a week into keto, since then none.
Also never said that the studies data wasn’t relative, quite the opposite in fact. Believe I said I would use anything that I deemed better for my overall health. So also like I said after a full year of being fat-adapted I’ll switch to a CKD for a year and see how that goes. I’m always n=1. Cant wait for the OP’s study to finish knowledge is king.
This isn't the place to debate addiction, but you don't understand the difference in the full process of addiction and how the hijacking of the mesolimbic pathway works with true addiction vs. the simple dopamine response triggered by sugar.8 -
Read and weep. Also, Tukisenta & Ewe tribes eating huge amounts of carbs(+90% carbs), or the Kitavans (69% carb diet), or the Hadza (lots of honey, fruit, animal products) or the Kung San (moderate carbs with lots of nuts), or the Ewe Tribe (who eat a diet of basically NOTHING BUT insulin-spiking carbs ... literaly 98% of the diet). Here is a Kitavan(those carbs are really fattening huh)
Read and weep sure sir. All of those populations eat hardly no processed carbs. And eat what we consider a low calorie diet. They can’t eat whenever whatever they want sir. They do with what’s available to them l. So a good amount of daily fasting occurs which spare muscle mass and lengthens life then add in genetics and there you go sir.9
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