Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.

meal timing debate

124

Replies

  • mph323
    mph323 Posts: 3,565 Member
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    mph323 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    One thing I've always wondered is who are these people who can have their last meal at 6 or whatever...and what do they do? I don't remember the last time I was home from work anytime before 6...sometimes I'm just leaving the office.

    Yeah, I had a 4 hour daily commute for more than 14 years and rarely ate dinner before 7:00 and was in bed by 8:00 - 8:30. The last year I was working I lost almost 40 lbs. without changing anything except the number of calories I was eating.

    Yikes...4 hours would suck. Mine is typically 2 hours...sometimes 2.5 hours round trip if traffic is extra bad...but yeah, 6 PM is generally the earliest I get home. If I go to lift after work I'm not usually home until 7:30 or later.

    Haha, I went through a fortune in audio books! It was a choice I made - I worked in Silicon Valley and we got priced out of our rental. We were able to afford a home 63 miles away (we pay less for mortgage now than we were paying for rent when we left), and I liked my job enough not to want to change.
  • deannalfisher
    deannalfisher Posts: 5,600 Member
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    mph323 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    One thing I've always wondered is who are these people who can have their last meal at 6 or whatever...and what do they do? I don't remember the last time I was home from work anytime before 6...sometimes I'm just leaving the office.

    Yeah, I had a 4 hour daily commute for more than 14 years and rarely ate dinner before 7:00 and was in bed by 8:00 - 8:30. The last year I was working I lost almost 40 lbs. without changing anything except the number of calories I was eating.

    Yikes...4 hours would suck. Mine is typically 2 hours...sometimes 2.5 hours round trip if traffic is extra bad...but yeah, 6 PM is generally the earliest I get home. If I go to lift after work I'm not usually home until 7:30 or later.

    this - I leave for work between 5:30 and 6am, 1hr-ish commute in and then depending on the day - I may not leave until 5/6pm (6:18 at the latest because that is the last time the bus runs out to the parking lots depending on where I parked)
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    ryenday wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    ryenday wrote: »
    fuzzylop72 wrote: »
    ryenday wrote: »
    A question- I see a lot of posts on MFP which state meal timing makes no difference to weight loss. Does anyone have the cites for the peer reviewed research to back this up?

    I’m particularly interested in reading anything where they control tested meal timing in relation to bed time, not time of day.

    https://examine.com/nutrition/does-eating-at-night-make-it-more-likely-to-gain-weight/ -- sources linked at the end

    The studies that show differences are often due to the participants consuming less, not due to any physiological disadvantage of nighttime eating.

    As I read that the article’s conclusion was based upon the peer reviewed studies that exist “It is pretty hard to reach any conclusions” and none of the cited studies addressed time of eating/bedtime - all cited were about the time of eating/clock time.

    I’ll do some more research, but thus far I’ve not come across one study that specifically looks at whether sleep affects caloric intake - thus I don’t know that there is any peer reviewed scientific basis for a statement that it matters/doesn’t matter.

    Whether sleep affects caloric intake is a different question than from whether meal timing does.

    I think lack of sleep or messed up circadian rhythms certainly tends to result in higher cal intake and perhaps more problems for weight loss than that accounts for, but that doesn't seem to have anything to do with meal timing, since everyone has said it doesn't matter UNLESS it affects sleep. Maybe you meant to say something else, but it seems you might be talking about something different?

    Yeah, my limited understanding is that different chemical processes occur in the body during sleep. Therefore I question whether a meal consumed right before sleep might result in a difference to the caloric uptake. I Question this, I am not saying it is true/false or even quantitatively relevant. I would just like to know if anyone has seen any reputable research addressing it.

    Oh, I see. I thought you were asking about whether getting enough sleep made a difference.

    I don't see how eating before bed COULD matter to how many calories you got from the food (that would require more efficient digestion, not less, and the process would continue after you woke up if necessary, anyway, to the extent sleep interfered with it).

    I do know that there are some studies that suggest that interference with circadian rhythms can be a problem and getting most food (i.e., not eating right before, but getting the majority of calories in the evening) before bed can be problematic, although I am inclined to think that has to do with activity level ending up less or eating more to compensate.
  • Tacklewasher
    Tacklewasher Posts: 7,122 Member
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    One thing I've always wondered is who are these people who can have their last meal at 6 or whatever...and what do they do? I don't remember the last time I was home from work anytime before 6...sometimes I'm just leaving the office.

    I'm similar. I get up at 5, out the door to the gym at 5:20 (opens at 5:30). Back home by 6:25 and shower at home. Leave the house at 6:50 and am sitting with my coffee at my desk at 7:00.

    Leave work ~4:15 and may not get home until 4:25 (depending on traffic). So fitting in my after work nap and still finishing dinner by 6 would be tough some days.

    :devil:
  • Need2Exerc1se
    Need2Exerc1se Posts: 13,576 Member
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    mph323 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    One thing I've always wondered is who are these people who can have their last meal at 6 or whatever...and what do they do? I don't remember the last time I was home from work anytime before 6...sometimes I'm just leaving the office.

    Yeah, I had a 4 hour daily commute for more than 14 years and rarely ate dinner before 7:00 and was in bed by 8:00 - 8:30. The last year I was working I lost almost 40 lbs. without changing anything except the number of calories I was eating.

    Yikes...4 hours would suck. Mine is typically 2 hours...sometimes 2.5 hours round trip if traffic is extra bad...but yeah, 6 PM is generally the earliest I get home. If I go to lift after work I'm not usually home until 7:30 or later.

    this - I leave for work between 5:30 and 6am, 1hr-ish commute in and then depending on the day - I may not leave until 5/6pm (6:18 at the latest because that is the last time the bus runs out to the parking lots depending on where I parked)

    My days are similar when I go into the office, but now I work from home most days so I could eat dinner at 6 p.m. if I wanted. At least in the winter months I could. In summer my real work begins when my paycheck earning job is over because that's when I do yard and garden work until dark. Then I get to eat.
  • VioletRojo
    VioletRojo Posts: 596 Member
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    One thing I've always wondered is who are these people who can have their last meal at 6 or whatever...and what do they do? I don't remember the last time I was home from work anytime before 6...sometimes I'm just leaving the office.

    I'm in the office by 7am so that I can leave at 3:30. I'm home by 4, exercising (lifting in my home gym or running outside) by 4:30, and dinner is on table no later than 6:45, usually 6:15 or 6:30. Then I have the evening to do whatever. It was an excellent schedule when my kids were young, now it's just what we've gotten used to.
  • Christine_72
    Christine_72 Posts: 16,049 Member
    edited January 2018
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    One thing I've always wondered is who are these people who can have their last meal at 6 or whatever...and what do they do? I don't remember the last time I was home from work anytime before 6...sometimes I'm just leaving the office.

    I've never had an office job, my hours were usually 7am-3:30pm. My husband is in construction, similar hours. I usually have dinner between 5-6pm.

    ETA: I live in a small city, it would take 90 minutes in peak hour traffic to get from one end to the other, so spending hours commuting has never been an issue here. I know not every one has this luxury, but i wouldnt take a job that was more than 30 minutes drive away, any more than that would drive me nutso!!
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    ryenday wrote: »
    CSARdiver wrote: »
    ryenday wrote: »
    CSARdiver wrote: »
    ryenday wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    ryenday wrote: »
    fuzzylop72 wrote: »
    ryenday wrote: »
    A question- I see a lot of posts on MFP which state meal timing makes no difference to weight loss. Does anyone have the cites for the peer reviewed research to back this up?

    I’m particularly interested in reading anything where they control tested meal timing in relation to bed time, not time of day.

    https://examine.com/nutrition/does-eating-at-night-make-it-more-likely-to-gain-weight/ -- sources linked at the end

    The studies that show differences are often due to the participants consuming less, not due to any physiological disadvantage of nighttime eating.

    As I read that the article’s conclusion was based upon the peer reviewed studies that exist “It is pretty hard to reach any conclusions” and none of the cited studies addressed time of eating/bedtime - all cited were about the time of eating/clock time.

    I’ll do some more research, but thus far I’ve not come across one study that specifically looks at whether sleep affects caloric intake - thus I don’t know that there is any peer reviewed scientific basis for a statement that it matters/doesn’t matter.

    Whether sleep affects caloric intake is a different question than from whether meal timing does.

    I think lack of sleep or messed up circadian rhythms certainly tends to result in higher cal intake and perhaps more problems for weight loss than that accounts for, but that doesn't seem to have anything to do with meal timing, since everyone has said it doesn't matter UNLESS it affects sleep. Maybe you meant to say something else, but it seems you might be talking about something different?

    Yeah, my limited understanding is that different chemical processes occur in the body during sleep. Therefore I question whether a meal consumed right before sleep might result in a difference to the caloric uptake. I Question this, I am not saying it is true/false or even quantitatively relevant. I would just like to know if anyone has seen any reputable research addressing it.

    I want you to think about this logically and critically.

    Does it makes sense on a molecular level that a biological system would modify metabolic pathways?

    Metabolic pathways are set and only react to stimulus - this being the presence of molecules (food). The miracle of life does not begin or end by sleeping/waking. Imagine the outcome if this had an impact? How would this impact people on differing sleep cycles - off shift workers & long shift workers. How would this impact people in a coma?

    There are specific chemical processes that occur during sleep cycles, but these have almost no impact on metabolism. Now there is an impact when individuals are sleep deprived, but this is a matter of dramatic hormonal imbalance resulting *in increased water weight.

    *edited

    Interesting but digestion is affected by sleep and body position (horizontal) isn’t it? Insulin is released shortly before one wakes up in the morning if one adheres to a regular schedule, isn’t that true? I believe cortisol also has a daily/nightly routine release. And Melatonin too, yes?

    I might have those things wrong- but If those are true, then Yes, it does logically make sense (to me) that metabolic systems might also be also affected.

    I don’t know, and that is why I wondered if there was any reputable research on the subject that I have been unable to find that someone else might know about.

    No. How do coma patients stay alive? How do bed ridden patients stay alive? How do astronauts stay alive? Your orientation to gravity is irrelevant.

    Insulin is not on a strict time-released schedule and reactionary to stimulus, not sleep. The impact of cortisol on metabolism is <1%. Same with melatonin.

    I'm sure you can find peer reviewed articles that cherry pick data, but focus on the degree of influence. Statistically speaking there is none.

    Wow. How do coma patients stay alive? What in heavens name does that have to do with my question? A legitimate question: does anyone have any scientific basis for the claim that eating close to bed time make no difference st all to metabolism or caloric uptake. And, one’s personal account (“it doesn’t for me, personally in my experience so it is obviously the truth for all”) doesn’t cut it.

    I see loads of “show me the research” requests on MFP when people make “factual” statements about Keto or IF etc. just asking for the same because I actually wonder if there might be an effect.

    If there is no particular reason to think there is an effect, I think the logical burden would be on the person claiming there should be an effect or, at the least, a proposed mechanism for why there would be beyond the fact that lots of dieting advice used to claim so.

    But here is something, although unfortunately it deals with evening calories, not how long before dinner. Similar concept seems to apply, though: https://examine.com/nutrition/does-eating-at-night-make-it-more-likely-to-gain-weight/

    * a study[1] on 12 obese women in a metabolic ward found that late-night eating did not affect weight loss. The women went through three 18-day periods in which a similar range of calories (~900-1,000) were consumed: During the first period, the calories were distributed across 5 meals; during the second period, calories were only consumed from 9 to 11 a.m.; and during the third period, calories were only consumed from 6 to 8 p.m. Changes in weight, body fat, and fat-free mass did not significantly differ across the three periods. This study provides some preliminary evidence: In a highly-controlled setting where all the meals are prepared for you, the times at which you eat aren’t that important for body weight.

    * A 2012 study provided a much different angle, in both study design and results. It was a 6-month trial on 78 obese police officers, and actually ended up linking night-time eating with enhanced weight loss. Officers who were assigned to eat most of their daily carbs at dinner (dinner-carb eaters) lost more weight, inches off their waist, and body fat than officers who ate most of their carbs before dinner (day-carb eaters). Moreover, these dinner-carb eaters showed better improvements in insulin sensitivity, blood lipids, and inflammation. However, dinner-carb eaters did start out with a higher average BMI, weight, and body fat percentage than day-carb eaters, which could partly explain the greater improvements observed in this group. [Note: for what it's worth, this is what I did when losing for the most part -- ate late and ate most of my carbs at dinner, and as I said I lost more than MFP predicted, although I doubt it was due to timing, and my timing was due to preference. But this is not about eating super late vs. not so late, but breakfast vs. dinner.]

    * The findings of the prior two studies somewhat conflict with those of two recent trials, both published in 2013, which suggested that eating earlier in the day may distinctly benefit weight loss. The first involved 74 overweight and obese women with metabolic syndrome. They were randomized into one of two weight-loss groups: the breakfast group and the dinner group, that both ate an identical amount of calories (1,400 kcal) for 12 weeks and differed mainly by the time at which most calories for the day were consumed (either at breakfast or at dinner). The breakfast group lost more weight and inches off their waist, and experienced a significantly greater decrease in fasting glucose, insulin, and HOMA-IR than the dinner group (although fasting glucose, insulin, and ghrelin were reduced in both groups). Furthermore, mean triglyceride levels decreased by 33.6% in the breakfast group, while they increased by 14.6% in the dinner group. [Note: I think this may have something to do with circadian rhythms, it's about calorie split, NOT dinner at 6 pm vs. 9 pm, and I think different things sometimes are relevant for those with metabolic syndrome. Nevertheless, this is the study I was referring to in my prior posts above.]

    * The second trial[4] was a 2-week crossover in healthy young adults of normal body weight. This study found that completely restricting food intake between 7 p.m. and 6 a.m. led to a moderate decrease (-239 kcal/day) in total daily caloric consumption, a reduction that could lead to considerable weight loss if sustained long-term. [Note: this is likely about calorie restriction, not meal timing -- having fasting periods often leads to less overall eating.]

    * A final study yielded some rather inconclusive results about the superiority of early-day vs. night-time eating, but still suggested that both styles were effective for losing weight. This 105-day, crossover trial involved 10 overweight and obese adult women in a metabolic ward. The authors found that during the first crossover phase (first 6 weeks), participants who ate most of their daily food at night (p.m. eaters) lost more fat and less lean mass than those who ate most of their food in the morning (a.m. eaters). However, during the second cross-over phase (when participants switched groups), a.m. eaters lost more fat than p.m. eaters. This could be partly explained by the higher body fat percentage at the start of the study among participants who lost the most fat (those who were first in the p.m. group and then switched to the a.m. group), which usually makes fat loss easier.

    Unfortunately, though, none of these are really on topic. I don't think there's any serious belief that something like eating at 6 pm rather than 9 pm will affect weight loss if calories are equal, but if you know differently I'd be interested.
    You say the impact of cortisol on metabolism is less than 1 percent. Same for melatonin- I’d love cites for those statements so I can learn.

    Whatever the affect of those on metabolism, why would this make eating later a problem? Are you positing that doing so would change the amount of melatonin or cortisol?
    I don’t see any reputable studies saying laying down vs standing when we digest makes no difference.

    It seems like it makes a difference for some people in that eating too close to bed for some causes problems with digestion (reflux or what not).

    But you seem to think that it means that there is a problem that would result in more calories being obtained from the food? How would this work? I just don't understand what your concern is here.

    If you WANT to eat before 6 pm, that's cool. If you don't want to but want to do it because you read that that's how you lose fat and you think it might make a difference, that's cool too, I suppose (although if you would prefer to eat at another time I'd probably experiment -- but you are IFing anyway, right?). All I object to is people being told it's something important for them to worry about, as there's no evidence it is and at most it's likely majoring in the minors and a huge number of people would have a hard time eating at, say, 6, as most people I know work that late (or later), and have commutes and some like to work out in the evenings, so on.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    I will add re the assertion that timing matters, the only evidence that it does seems to lean toward the idea that if you eat a significant amount of your calories at one time it's better to do so in the morning (I don't think that evidence is all that strong, but there's a little). Yet the more popular versions of IF and OMAD seem to tend to put calories toward the evening (dinner only, or something like a 2 to 8 pm eating window). Clearly there are all kinds of patterns, but these strike me as the most common, and people seem to do quite well with these (if they like them). This seems to me pretty decent indication that is really doesn't matter for fat loss in any significant way (certainly not to outweigh things like what works for your lifestyle and preferences).

    If I were concerned it could make a difference, and knowing that people seem to differ on these kinds of things, I'd at least do an n=1 experiment rather than assuming I should live by some rule that one should never eat past 6 pm (or whatever arbitrary time is popular these days). Or I'd do what I did and eat when it made sense to me and see if there were any problems.
  • Christine_72
    Christine_72 Posts: 16,049 Member
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    One thing I've always wondered is who are these people who can have their last meal at 6 or whatever...and what do they do? I don't remember the last time I was home from work anytime before 6...sometimes I'm just leaving the office.

    I've never had an office job, my hours were usually 7am-3:30pm. My husband is in construction, similar hours. I usually have dinner between 5-6pm.

    ETA: I live in a small city, it would take 90 minutes in peak hour traffic to get from one end to the other, so spending hours commuting has never been an issue here. I know not every one has this luxury, but i wouldnt take a job that was more than 30 minutes drive away, any more than that would drive me nutso!!

    I also wanted to add that the sooner the kitchen is closed, the better. I want to relax in the evenings, not still stuff arsing about in the kitchen at 8-9pm.
  • Christine_72
    Christine_72 Posts: 16,049 Member
    @ryenday I understand what you're asking. I've been hanging around on this thread hoping someone would have an answer for you. But honestly, i dont think there is one..
  • dinadyna21
    dinadyna21 Posts: 403 Member
    edited January 2018
    @ryenday I understand what you're asking. I've been hanging around on this thread hoping someone would have an answer for you. But honestly, i dont think there is one..

    It would take definitive research to find out and I honestly don't know of any studies that have done this, maybe someone else can offer them. All I can offer is my personal experience, if my body is affected by my eating and sleeping schedule it's not showing in my weight loss. I've lost predictable given the calories I'm consuming and my activity with no issues.
    Edit: On a related note what's with all the woo? Most of what others have said here is pretty logical.
  • kimny72
    kimny72 Posts: 16,023 Member
    ryenday wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    ryenday wrote: »
    CSARdiver wrote: »
    ryenday wrote: »
    CSARdiver wrote: »
    ryenday wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    ryenday wrote: »
    fuzzylop72 wrote: »
    ryenday wrote: »
    A question- I see a lot of posts on MFP which state meal timing makes no difference to weight loss. Does anyone have the cites for the peer reviewed research to back this up?

    I’m particularly interested in reading anything where they control tested meal timing in relation to bed time, not time of day.

    https://examine.com/nutrition/does-eating-at-night-make-it-more-likely-to-gain-weight/ -- sources linked at the end

    The studies that show differences are often due to the participants consuming less, not due to any physiological disadvantage of nighttime eating.

    As I read that the article’s conclusion was based upon the peer reviewed studies that exist “It is pretty hard to reach any conclusions” and none of the cited studies addressed time of eating/bedtime - all cited were about the time of eating/clock time.

    I’ll do some more research, but thus far I’ve not come across one study that specifically looks at whether sleep affects caloric intake - thus I don’t know that there is any peer reviewed scientific basis for a statement that it matters/doesn’t matter.

    Whether sleep affects caloric intake is a different question than from whether meal timing does.

    I think lack of sleep or messed up circadian rhythms certainly tends to result in higher cal intake and perhaps more problems for weight loss than that accounts for, but that doesn't seem to have anything to do with meal timing, since everyone has said it doesn't matter UNLESS it affects sleep. Maybe you meant to say something else, but it seems you might be talking about something different?

    Yeah, my limited understanding is that different chemical processes occur in the body during sleep. Therefore I question whether a meal consumed right before sleep might result in a difference to the caloric uptake. I Question this, I am not saying it is true/false or even quantitatively relevant. I would just like to know if anyone has seen any reputable research addressing it.

    I want you to think about this logically and critically.

    Does it makes sense on a molecular level that a biological system would modify metabolic pathways?

    Metabolic pathways are set and only react to stimulus - this being the presence of molecules (food). The miracle of life does not begin or end by sleeping/waking. Imagine the outcome if this had an impact? How would this impact people on differing sleep cycles - off shift workers & long shift workers. How would this impact people in a coma?

    There are specific chemical processes that occur during sleep cycles, but these have almost no impact on metabolism. Now there is an impact when individuals are sleep deprived, but this is a matter of dramatic hormonal imbalance resulting *in increased water weight.

    *edited

    Interesting but digestion is affected by sleep and body position (horizontal) isn’t it? Insulin is released shortly before one wakes up in the morning if one adheres to a regular schedule, isn’t that true? I believe cortisol also has a daily/nightly routine release. And Melatonin too, yes?

    I might have those things wrong- but If those are true, then Yes, it does logically make sense (to me) that metabolic systems might also be also affected.

    I don’t know, and that is why I wondered if there was any reputable research on the subject that I have been unable to find that someone else might know about.

    No. How do coma patients stay alive? How do bed ridden patients stay alive? How do astronauts stay alive? Your orientation to gravity is irrelevant.

    Insulin is not on a strict time-released schedule and reactionary to stimulus, not sleep. The impact of cortisol on metabolism is <1%. Same with melatonin.

    I'm sure you can find peer reviewed articles that cherry pick data, but focus on the degree of influence. Statistically speaking there is none.

    Wow. How do coma patients stay alive? What in heavens name does that have to do with my question? A legitimate question: does anyone have any scientific basis for the claim that eating close to bed time make no difference st all to metabolism or caloric uptake. And, one’s personal account (“it doesn’t for me, personally in my experience so it is obviously the truth for all”) doesn’t cut it.

    I see loads of “show me the research” requests on MFP when people make “factual” statements about Keto or IF etc. just asking for the same because I actually wonder if there might be an effect.

    If there is no particular reason to think there is an effect, I think the logical burden would be on the person claiming there should be an effect or, at the least, a proposed mechanism for why there would be beyond the fact that lots of dieting advice used to claim so.

    But here is something, although unfortunately it deals with evening calories, not how long before dinner. Similar concept seems to apply, though: https://examine.com/nutrition/does-eating-at-night-make-it-more-likely-to-gain-weight/

    * a study[1] on 12 obese women in a metabolic ward found that late-night eating did not affect weight loss. The women went through three 18-day periods in which a similar range of calories (~900-1,000) were consumed: During the first period, the calories were distributed across 5 meals; during the second period, calories were only consumed from 9 to 11 a.m.; and during the third period, calories were only consumed from 6 to 8 p.m. Changes in weight, body fat, and fat-free mass did not significantly differ across the three periods. This study provides some preliminary evidence: In a highly-controlled setting where all the meals are prepared for you, the times at which you eat aren’t that important for body weight.

    * A 2012 study provided a much different angle, in both study design and results. It was a 6-month trial on 78 obese police officers, and actually ended up linking night-time eating with enhanced weight loss. Officers who were assigned to eat most of their daily carbs at dinner (dinner-carb eaters) lost more weight, inches off their waist, and body fat than officers who ate most of their carbs before dinner (day-carb eaters). Moreover, these dinner-carb eaters showed better improvements in insulin sensitivity, blood lipids, and inflammation. However, dinner-carb eaters did start out with a higher average BMI, weight, and body fat percentage than day-carb eaters, which could partly explain the greater improvements observed in this group. [Note: for what it's worth, this is what I did when losing for the most part -- ate late and ate most of my carbs at dinner, and as I said I lost more than MFP predicted, although I doubt it was due to timing, and my timing was due to preference. But this is not about eating super late vs. not so late, but breakfast vs. dinner.]

    * The findings of the prior two studies somewhat conflict with those of two recent trials, both published in 2013, which suggested that eating earlier in the day may distinctly benefit weight loss. The first involved 74 overweight and obese women with metabolic syndrome. They were randomized into one of two weight-loss groups: the breakfast group and the dinner group, that both ate an identical amount of calories (1,400 kcal) for 12 weeks and differed mainly by the time at which most calories for the day were consumed (either at breakfast or at dinner). The breakfast group lost more weight and inches off their waist, and experienced a significantly greater decrease in fasting glucose, insulin, and HOMA-IR than the dinner group (although fasting glucose, insulin, and ghrelin were reduced in both groups). Furthermore, mean triglyceride levels decreased by 33.6% in the breakfast group, while they increased by 14.6% in the dinner group. [Note: I think this may have something to do with circadian rhythms, it's about calorie split, NOT dinner at 6 pm vs. 9 pm, and I think different things sometimes are relevant for those with metabolic syndrome. Nevertheless, this is the study I was referring to in my prior posts above.]

    * The second trial[4] was a 2-week crossover in healthy young adults of normal body weight. This study found that completely restricting food intake between 7 p.m. and 6 a.m. led to a moderate decrease (-239 kcal/day) in total daily caloric consumption, a reduction that could lead to considerable weight loss if sustained long-term. [Note: this is likely about calorie restriction, not meal timing -- having fasting periods often leads to less overall eating.]

    * A final study yielded some rather inconclusive results about the superiority of early-day vs. night-time eating, but still suggested that both styles were effective for losing weight. This 105-day, crossover trial involved 10 overweight and obese adult women in a metabolic ward. The authors found that during the first crossover phase (first 6 weeks), participants who ate most of their daily food at night (p.m. eaters) lost more fat and less lean mass than those who ate most of their food in the morning (a.m. eaters). However, during the second cross-over phase (when participants switched groups), a.m. eaters lost more fat than p.m. eaters. This could be partly explained by the higher body fat percentage at the start of the study among participants who lost the most fat (those who were first in the p.m. group and then switched to the a.m. group), which usually makes fat loss easier.

    Unfortunately, though, none of these are really on topic. I don't think there's any serious belief that something like eating at 6 pm rather than 9 pm will affect weight loss if calories are equal, but if you know differently I'd be interested.
    You say the impact of cortisol on metabolism is less than 1 percent. Same for melatonin- I’d love cites for those statements so I can learn.

    Whatever the affect of those on metabolism, why would this make eating later a problem? Are you positing that doing so would change the amount of melatonin or cortisol?
    I don’t see any reputable studies saying laying down vs standing when we digest makes no difference.

    It seems like it makes a difference for some people in that eating too close to bed for some causes problems with digestion (reflux or what not).

    But you seem to think that it means that there is a problem that would result in more calories being obtained from the food? How would this work? I just don't understand what your concern is here.

    If you WANT to eat before 6 pm, that's cool. If you don't want to but want to do it because you read that that's how you lose fat and you think it might make a difference, that's cool too, I suppose (although if you would prefer to eat at another time I'd probably experiment -- but you are IFing anyway, right?). All I object to is people being told it's something important for them to worry about, as there's no evidence it is and at most it's likely majoring in the minors and a huge number of people would have a hard time eating at, say, 6, as most people I know work that late (or later), and have commutes and some like to work out in the evenings, so on.

    Well obviously I’m being intentionally misunderstood or am unable to communicate. My point was a question not about time but about how close to sleeping eating occurred. My point about digestion, melatonin, cortisol etc was merely that since they are affected by circadian rhythm and sleep wake cycles, then I don’t think it far fetched to wonder if there is a similar metabolic effect when the body is sleeping and if there would be any difference in digesting and metabolizing during sleep. I think it is a reasonable question and I think I have made it clear what I’m interested in.

    The replies such as well why people don’t die from comas and yours questioning how melatonin and cortisol figure into my question make me feel I’m just being intentionally misunderstood and mocked.

    Fine. I withdraw. Not worth restating myself just to watch my question reframed into a straw man argument that is outrageous and frankly stupid sounding. You all enjoy yourselves now.

    I'm not sure if you read my reply or not, but I understand your question. And the general idea I've taken from the replies is that based on what we know about how digestion and energy conversion works in the body, there is no logical reason to think that eating right before sleep would affect fat storage/weight gain. So it would be up to someone to do a study showing that it did have some effect, and it seems like no one has. Any articles I could find only say there is no proof that eating late affects weight. Until someone proves it does, the negative is accepted as true. As someone not formally educated in science, my assumption is usually that if there are no studies about something, it's because no professionals in the field think there is any chance the idea has merit. I honestly didn't read anything here as mocking, but I'm sorry you didn't get the answers you were looking for.
  • Momepro
    Momepro Posts: 1,509 Member
    edited January 2018
    Coming from my husband, and we haven't looked up any studies on it, but one area where the later night eating *might * have a poorer affect on weight loss is if you are prone to excessive gas or intestinal upset. I haven't seen any real mention of this in this discussion, although it's possible I just missed it. In those cases eating late could cause you to feel worse, leading to poorer sleep. And my understanding is that current studies are showing that not getting enough sleep is a factor in gaining or not being able to lose as easily. So in that way, time of last meal and type of food eaten late could have an impact on weight loss.
    As I said, I haven't researched it myself and this is mainly casual observation from my husband and I talking about this thread.
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,454 Member
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    One thing I've always wondered is who are these people who can have their last meal at 6 or whatever...and what do they do? I don't remember the last time I was home from work anytime before 6...sometimes I'm just leaving the office.
    They gotta be farmers.

    Lol, hell I'm mid training clients between 4-7pm. To eat dinner at 6pm, I HAVE to be not working.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    img
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    ryenday wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    ryenday wrote: »
    CSARdiver wrote: »
    ryenday wrote: »
    CSARdiver wrote: »
    ryenday wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    ryenday wrote: »
    fuzzylop72 wrote: »
    ryenday wrote: »
    A question- I see a lot of posts on MFP which state meal timing makes no difference to weight loss. Does anyone have the cites for the peer reviewed research to back this up?

    I’m particularly interested in reading anything where they control tested meal timing in relation to bed time, not time of day.

    https://examine.com/nutrition/does-eating-at-night-make-it-more-likely-to-gain-weight/ -- sources linked at the end

    The studies that show differences are often due to the participants consuming less, not due to any physiological disadvantage of nighttime eating.

    As I read that the article’s conclusion was based upon the peer reviewed studies that exist “It is pretty hard to reach any conclusions” and none of the cited studies addressed time of eating/bedtime - all cited were about the time of eating/clock time.

    I’ll do some more research, but thus far I’ve not come across one study that specifically looks at whether sleep affects caloric intake - thus I don’t know that there is any peer reviewed scientific basis for a statement that it matters/doesn’t matter.

    Whether sleep affects caloric intake is a different question than from whether meal timing does.

    I think lack of sleep or messed up circadian rhythms certainly tends to result in higher cal intake and perhaps more problems for weight loss than that accounts for, but that doesn't seem to have anything to do with meal timing, since everyone has said it doesn't matter UNLESS it affects sleep. Maybe you meant to say something else, but it seems you might be talking about something different?

    Yeah, my limited understanding is that different chemical processes occur in the body during sleep. Therefore I question whether a meal consumed right before sleep might result in a difference to the caloric uptake. I Question this, I am not saying it is true/false or even quantitatively relevant. I would just like to know if anyone has seen any reputable research addressing it.

    I want you to think about this logically and critically.

    Does it makes sense on a molecular level that a biological system would modify metabolic pathways?

    Metabolic pathways are set and only react to stimulus - this being the presence of molecules (food). The miracle of life does not begin or end by sleeping/waking. Imagine the outcome if this had an impact? How would this impact people on differing sleep cycles - off shift workers & long shift workers. How would this impact people in a coma?

    There are specific chemical processes that occur during sleep cycles, but these have almost no impact on metabolism. Now there is an impact when individuals are sleep deprived, but this is a matter of dramatic hormonal imbalance resulting *in increased water weight.

    *edited

    Interesting but digestion is affected by sleep and body position (horizontal) isn’t it? Insulin is released shortly before one wakes up in the morning if one adheres to a regular schedule, isn’t that true? I believe cortisol also has a daily/nightly routine release. And Melatonin too, yes?

    I might have those things wrong- but If those are true, then Yes, it does logically make sense (to me) that metabolic systems might also be also affected.

    I don’t know, and that is why I wondered if there was any reputable research on the subject that I have been unable to find that someone else might know about.

    No. How do coma patients stay alive? How do bed ridden patients stay alive? How do astronauts stay alive? Your orientation to gravity is irrelevant.

    Insulin is not on a strict time-released schedule and reactionary to stimulus, not sleep. The impact of cortisol on metabolism is <1%. Same with melatonin.

    I'm sure you can find peer reviewed articles that cherry pick data, but focus on the degree of influence. Statistically speaking there is none.

    Wow. How do coma patients stay alive? What in heavens name does that have to do with my question? A legitimate question: does anyone have any scientific basis for the claim that eating close to bed time make no difference st all to metabolism or caloric uptake. And, one’s personal account (“it doesn’t for me, personally in my experience so it is obviously the truth for all”) doesn’t cut it.

    I see loads of “show me the research” requests on MFP when people make “factual” statements about Keto or IF etc. just asking for the same because I actually wonder if there might be an effect.

    If there is no particular reason to think there is an effect, I think the logical burden would be on the person claiming there should be an effect or, at the least, a proposed mechanism for why there would be beyond the fact that lots of dieting advice used to claim so.

    But here is something, although unfortunately it deals with evening calories, not how long before dinner. Similar concept seems to apply, though: https://examine.com/nutrition/does-eating-at-night-make-it-more-likely-to-gain-weight/

    * a study[1] on 12 obese women in a metabolic ward found that late-night eating did not affect weight loss. The women went through three 18-day periods in which a similar range of calories (~900-1,000) were consumed: During the first period, the calories were distributed across 5 meals; during the second period, calories were only consumed from 9 to 11 a.m.; and during the third period, calories were only consumed from 6 to 8 p.m. Changes in weight, body fat, and fat-free mass did not significantly differ across the three periods. This study provides some preliminary evidence: In a highly-controlled setting where all the meals are prepared for you, the times at which you eat aren’t that important for body weight.

    * A 2012 study provided a much different angle, in both study design and results. It was a 6-month trial on 78 obese police officers, and actually ended up linking night-time eating with enhanced weight loss. Officers who were assigned to eat most of their daily carbs at dinner (dinner-carb eaters) lost more weight, inches off their waist, and body fat than officers who ate most of their carbs before dinner (day-carb eaters). Moreover, these dinner-carb eaters showed better improvements in insulin sensitivity, blood lipids, and inflammation. However, dinner-carb eaters did start out with a higher average BMI, weight, and body fat percentage than day-carb eaters, which could partly explain the greater improvements observed in this group. [Note: for what it's worth, this is what I did when losing for the most part -- ate late and ate most of my carbs at dinner, and as I said I lost more than MFP predicted, although I doubt it was due to timing, and my timing was due to preference. But this is not about eating super late vs. not so late, but breakfast vs. dinner.]

    * The findings of the prior two studies somewhat conflict with those of two recent trials, both published in 2013, which suggested that eating earlier in the day may distinctly benefit weight loss. The first involved 74 overweight and obese women with metabolic syndrome. They were randomized into one of two weight-loss groups: the breakfast group and the dinner group, that both ate an identical amount of calories (1,400 kcal) for 12 weeks and differed mainly by the time at which most calories for the day were consumed (either at breakfast or at dinner). The breakfast group lost more weight and inches off their waist, and experienced a significantly greater decrease in fasting glucose, insulin, and HOMA-IR than the dinner group (although fasting glucose, insulin, and ghrelin were reduced in both groups). Furthermore, mean triglyceride levels decreased by 33.6% in the breakfast group, while they increased by 14.6% in the dinner group. [Note: I think this may have something to do with circadian rhythms, it's about calorie split, NOT dinner at 6 pm vs. 9 pm, and I think different things sometimes are relevant for those with metabolic syndrome. Nevertheless, this is the study I was referring to in my prior posts above.]

    * The second trial[4] was a 2-week crossover in healthy young adults of normal body weight. This study found that completely restricting food intake between 7 p.m. and 6 a.m. led to a moderate decrease (-239 kcal/day) in total daily caloric consumption, a reduction that could lead to considerable weight loss if sustained long-term. [Note: this is likely about calorie restriction, not meal timing -- having fasting periods often leads to less overall eating.]

    * A final study yielded some rather inconclusive results about the superiority of early-day vs. night-time eating, but still suggested that both styles were effective for losing weight. This 105-day, crossover trial involved 10 overweight and obese adult women in a metabolic ward. The authors found that during the first crossover phase (first 6 weeks), participants who ate most of their daily food at night (p.m. eaters) lost more fat and less lean mass than those who ate most of their food in the morning (a.m. eaters). However, during the second cross-over phase (when participants switched groups), a.m. eaters lost more fat than p.m. eaters. This could be partly explained by the higher body fat percentage at the start of the study among participants who lost the most fat (those who were first in the p.m. group and then switched to the a.m. group), which usually makes fat loss easier.

    Unfortunately, though, none of these are really on topic. I don't think there's any serious belief that something like eating at 6 pm rather than 9 pm will affect weight loss if calories are equal, but if you know differently I'd be interested.
    You say the impact of cortisol on metabolism is less than 1 percent. Same for melatonin- I’d love cites for those statements so I can learn.

    Whatever the affect of those on metabolism, why would this make eating later a problem? Are you positing that doing so would change the amount of melatonin or cortisol?
    I don’t see any reputable studies saying laying down vs standing when we digest makes no difference.

    It seems like it makes a difference for some people in that eating too close to bed for some causes problems with digestion (reflux or what not).

    But you seem to think that it means that there is a problem that would result in more calories being obtained from the food? How would this work? I just don't understand what your concern is here.

    If you WANT to eat before 6 pm, that's cool. If you don't want to but want to do it because you read that that's how you lose fat and you think it might make a difference, that's cool too, I suppose (although if you would prefer to eat at another time I'd probably experiment -- but you are IFing anyway, right?). All I object to is people being told it's something important for them to worry about, as there's no evidence it is and at most it's likely majoring in the minors and a huge number of people would have a hard time eating at, say, 6, as most people I know work that late (or later), and have commutes and some like to work out in the evenings, so on.

    Well obviously I’m being intentionally misunderstood or am unable to communicate. My point was a question not about time but about how close to sleeping eating occurred.

    Yes, I told you all I had was not exactly on point. I'm not aware of research into the close to sleeping question, but I am also not aware of anything to suggest that it COULD affect weight loss.
    My point about digestion, melatonin, cortisol etc was merely that since they are affected by circadian rhythm and sleep wake cycles, then I don’t think it far fetched to wonder if there is a similar metabolic effect when the body is sleeping and if there would be any difference in digesting and metabolizing during sleep.

    I think eating close to sleep can be a problem for some people for digestion, as I explained already.

    But my question why how would this affect weight loss? Assume that you don't digest as swiftly during sleep. So what? You'd not gain fat as a result. You'd still take in the same amount of calories in 24 hours, and how fast you digest doesn't affect fat loss.
    The replies such as well why people don’t die from comas and yours questioning how melatonin and cortisol figure into my question make me feel I’m just being intentionally misunderstood and mocked.

    I'm not mocking you, I am genuinely asking how you think that eating close to sleep would affect cortisol and melatonin in a way that causes the metabolism to slow down over the course of the whole day or otherwise affect fat loss.

    Someone else posted information about how eating carbs before bed can, for some, lead to better sleep and recovery (which, yes, is a different issues).
    Not worth restating myself just to watch my question reframed into a straw man argument that is outrageous and frankly stupid sounding.

    I did not do this. Indeed, I said the issue I had information on (morning vs. evening eating) was different, and in fact I don't see how that's a stupid sounding strawman, as it may have some (IMO minor) effect. I think the idea that eating before bed (if it doesn't affect sleep) is actually much less likely to affect anything, but I am trying to understand what you think the mechanism would be.

    I think some people assume that not having fast immediate digestion (which I don't think is a concern really, but let's say it is) means that the food immediately becomes fat (and the next morning is irrelevant), but if you think about it that makes no sense. I'm not assuming that's what you are saying, but you aren't apparently willing to explain what you see as the concern.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    One thing I've always wondered is who are these people who can have their last meal at 6 or whatever...and what do they do? I don't remember the last time I was home from work anytime before 6...sometimes I'm just leaving the office.

    I've never had an office job, my hours were usually 7am-3:30pm. My husband is in construction, similar hours. I usually have dinner between 5-6pm.

    ETA: I live in a small city, it would take 90 minutes in peak hour traffic to get from one end to the other, so spending hours commuting has never been an issue here. I know not every one has this luxury, but i wouldnt take a job that was more than 30 minutes drive away, any more than that would drive me nutso!!

    I also wanted to add that the sooner the kitchen is closed, the better. I want to relax in the evenings, not still stuff arsing about in the kitchen at 8-9pm.

    I get home, I cook, it's just usually 8 or after when I get home.

    I don't find it bothersome and don't think about the kitchen being open or closed; I make dinner, and then I don't eat anything after dinner (unless I have a dessert immediately after, kind of as an extension of dinner). Having to worry about eating at an insanely early (to me) time like 6, when I am ordinarily at work, would drive me crazy. That's why it's good that in reality we can all choose eating times by what works for us.