Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Why are some WOE more acceptable than others?
Replies
-
youngmomtaz wrote: ».
When I eat Keto my energy is better, my A1C is normal and not prediabetic range, my digestion is improved, my migraines reduce to almost zero. And all of this without weight loss.
That's an absolutely brilliant result for you. Congrats. :flowerforyou:
I feel though that the pushback is for different reasons, this probably isn't exhaustive and it's just my feelings:- Some fanatical keto proponents have an insufferable air of superiority.
- Wild and unfounded claims about keto. Either from hopelessly stupid sources or seriously blinkered "research" - looking for affirmation rather than looking for information while rejecting anything that counters their set in concrete view.
- The inference that everyone who enjoys and thrives on carbs (that's quite a few billion around the world!) is a hopelessly addicted, junk food eating chubster on the verge of "the dreaded diabetus".
- Newbies who haven't got a clue what keto is who are just following the latest fashion. "I've decided to do keto - what is it?". Erm - isn't that just a little bit silly to decide before investigating?
Is it a valid choice? Yes of course it is and agree there are many tracks to success. It's wonderful when you find the one that works for you.
Is it the best choice for some? Yes of course it is - and best of luck to those people.
Does it have major downsides? Yes it does - as do other diets.
As regards forum hostility you may notice the same hostility against intermittent fasting, crossfit, cardio (!), aggressive veganism, evangelical religion, Paleo, MLM schemes.....
Winston Churchill - "Fanatic: One Who Can’t Change His Mind and Won’t Change the Subject"27 -
youngmomtaz wrote: »Mods: please remove this if it is against guidelines.
I am just wondering why there is so much pushback against low carb high fat or Keto WOE but never against others like vegetarian or vegan? A vegan can ask a dietary question and have it answered directly with no off topic replys. A poster asking for advice or info about their current Keto protocol is immediately told that “they do not need to eat low carb to lose weight” while the asked question is often ignored.
I tend to not post in vegan/vegetarian threads because I don’t know enough about proper nutrition on these diets. But, using an example, I assume if I went into a thread where someone claimed to be low energy while eating vegan and I told them to eat some steak and eggs for better absorption of B vitamins, I would be lamb basted.
When I eat Keto my energy is better, my A1C is normal and not prediabetic range, my digestion is improved, my migraines reduce to almost zero. And all of this without weight loss. People typically will not stay on a “diet” that has them feeling poorly. So why are there such strong feelings about lchf? I have a hard time believing it is just about the weight loss claims because I see/hear of may people who think low fat or dropping meat will promote automatic weight loss as well. Why not encourage people to try and see how they feel best?
Bit of a ramble there, I am just honestly curious.
*pops popcorn for everyone though I hope it’s not needed.
The only push back I see on low carb or Keto (and I see it on vegan as well BTW) are for 2 reasons:- The person is struggling to eat that way and is upset about it.
- Someone is touting magical benefits of said diet and asserting it is the best way of eating for everyone.
And I think push back in both those instances is called for and fair. There is no one best WOE for everyone and there is no reason to struggle to eat one particular way unless you have medical reasons to do so.12 -
The problem here isn't with low carb or keto, it's with people who become evangelists for their beliefs in One True Way to lose weight. A lot of responses are from people attempting to disabuse True Believers from their promoting their lifestyle as the One True Way, or believers in a One True Way attacking believers in Another True Way as heretics.
Some One True Way claims are silly, most won't make a difference one way or the other, and some are just plain dangerous. Are keto diets dangerous? The evidence seems to be mixed:
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/keto-diet-is-gaining-popularity-but-is-it-safe-121914#5
There's no diet magic, there's no One True Way for losing weight, there's no silver bullet to slay the monster of obesity. But there are plenty of people around who would claim magic exists, and/or they know the One True Way/have the magic bullet that will solve all your problems.
Further: you're not going to do keto for the rest of your life. You're dividing your life into a portion labeled I'm On My Keto Diet and I'm Eating Normally. If you lose your weight and going back to I'm Eating Normally means going back to the bad habits and eating styles that got you into trouble in the first place, guess what's going to happen?
Here in the USA, people have been looking for magic bullets since I was in high school in the early 60s. Yet Americans are getting fatter and fatter and fatter - and most of those who lose their weight gain it right back again. It should be obvious magic bullets - keto or any of the other ones - do not work in the long run. In truth, if you don't find a way to eat differently for the I'm Eating Normally portion of your life, you're going to be a yoyo dieter and that may be harder on your body than if you just stayed fat.
And that's why people around here get *kittened* off at all the woo that floods the forums.
16 -
Further: you're not going to do keto for the rest of your life. You're dividing your life into a portion labeled I'm On My Keto Diet and I'm Eating Normally. If you lose your weight and going back to I'm Eating Normally means going back to the bad habits and eating styles that got you into trouble in the first place, guess what's going to happen?
Is this generally true? I get the feeling most keto practitioners do intend on eating that way permanently, although I'll admit my knowledge of keto is pretty limited.
2 -
jseams1234 wrote: »OP... start a thread about going vegan because you watched "What the Health" and then compare it to your typical Keto discussion.
Ever been in a thread when someone says they are going Gluten Free to lose weight? Watch all the folks with Celiac and legit Gluten Allergy/Sensitivity go to town... and rightfully so....14 -
Thanks for all the thoughts everyone! The ethical standpoint of vegetarian/veganism is actually, embarrassingly, completely honestly, something I had forgotten. Of the IRL people I know who eat in those styles only one does so because she can’t stand the texture of meat. Not a love for the animal but just a dislike of meat. The rest do it for “health”.
I still don’t think that having a moral standpoint on it should make it “more ok” and less questioned than Keto eating. Not saying either should be questioned. It just feels like there is a mad rush to be the first person the tell them that they don’t have to eat that way instead of actually helping them.2 -
fuzzylop72 wrote: »Further: you're not going to do keto for the rest of your life. You're dividing your life into a portion labeled I'm On My Keto Diet and I'm Eating Normally. If you lose your weight and going back to I'm Eating Normally means going back to the bad habits and eating styles that got you into trouble in the first place, guess what's going to happen?
Is this generally true? I get the feeling most keto practitioners do intend on eating that way permanently, although I'll admit my knowledge of keto is pretty limited.
In my experience it's a mixed bag. I've seen some people who absolutely intend on eating that way forever, but I've also seen plenty of posters say they are doing keto until they hit goal weight, then will slowly add carbs back in.2 -
LiveLoveFitFab wrote: »BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE WHO ARE VEGETARIAN OR VEGAN AREN'T DOING IT TO LOSE WEIGHT!
Seriously. We do it because we love animals, or it's our religion, or it's our beliefs, or we don't like the taste of meat and so on... Anyone who becomes a vegetarian for weight loss doesn't last, or they stop losing weight when they realize how many chips, cookies and candies are meatless.
And yes, if you posted to a vegetarian that they should eat some steak because they are sluggish, you deserve to be lambasted. That would be like me telling you that if you were too lazy to go to the grocery store that your dog or cat was viable meat for you to eat. I love cows and dogs equally when it comes to food, so yes, I'd be plenty offended. For someone who eats that way for religious reasons, your advice would be blasphemous.
Also, vegetarians take a lot of crap for how they eat. They don't need any more crap.
If your diet works for you, wonderful. Keep eating like that. Be healthy and happy.
Keto is basically the hippest newest thing for people. You'll find lots of information on it and lots of friends. And in a year or so, the next newest thing will hit the forums and the weight loss community and then you can try that too if you like. In the 90's they did it in Atkins, now there is keto, something else will come along. Either way, vegetarianism doesn't fall into this category. People have been refusing meat for centuries, not years. It's not going away.
I was not saying that is how I react to other people’s food choices. It was a hypothetical.1 -
No, it's just a mad rush to be the person to convince themyoungmomtaz wrote: »Thanks for all the thoughts everyone! The ethical standpoint of vegetarian/veganism is actually, embarrassingly, completely honestly, something I had forgotten. Of the IRL people I know who eat in those styles only one does so because she can’t stand the texture of meat. Not a love for the animal but just a dislike of meat. The rest do it for “health”.
I still don’t think that having a moral standpoint on it should make it “more ok” and less questioned than Keto eating. Not saying either should be questioned. It just feels like there is a mad rush to be the first person the tell them that they don’t have to eat that way instead of actually helping them.
Do you really think NOT telling them that they don't have to if they don't want to, is helping?3 -
youngmomtaz wrote: »Thanks for all the thoughts everyone! The ethical standpoint of vegetarian/veganism is actually, embarrassingly, completely honestly, something I had forgotten. Of the IRL people I know who eat in those styles only one does so because she can’t stand the texture of meat. Not a love for the animal but just a dislike of meat. The rest do it for “health”.
I still don’t think that having a moral standpoint on it should make it “more ok” and less questioned than Keto eating. Not saying either should be questioned. It just feels like there is a mad rush to be the first person the tell them that they don’t have to eat that way instead of actually helping them.
But what if telling them they don't have to eat that way IS helping them?
There are so many people out there right now who have read all the headlines and decided carbs are universally bad and cause you to gain weight. They look on Youtube and start watching videos of people who tell them all they have to do is eat keto and the weight will fall off, they will feel amazing, and they'll develop ESP. So they honestly believe they have to drop carbs super low, or they are doomed to stay fat. We see so many people who feel like failures because they can't hack eating the one right way. And I have seen enough people here who learned they didn't have to eat one right way, and it freed them from all the guilt and failure and BS and they lost their weight.
Someone who has successfully eaten keto for years can feel free to jump in and give that person tips on how to do keto better. I will continue to jump in and tell them they don't have to eat that way if it doesn't work for them. Just like I'll say to anyone else who is miserable eating the way they think they have to, whatever way that is.13 -
kommodevaran wrote: »
No, it's just a mad rush to be the person to convince themyoungmomtaz wrote: »Thanks for all the thoughts everyone! The ethical standpoint of vegetarian/veganism is actually, embarrassingly, completely honestly, something I had forgotten. Of the IRL people I know who eat in those styles only one does so because she can’t stand the texture of meat. Not a love for the animal but just a dislike of meat. The rest do it for “health”.
I still don’t think that having a moral standpoint on it should make it “more ok” and less questioned than Keto eating. Not saying either should be questioned. It just feels like there is a mad rush to be the first person the tell them that they don’t have to eat that way instead of actually helping them.
Do you really think NOT telling them that they don't have to if they don't want to, is helping?
I do actually. Once they have made a decision, why make them question it every step of the way? That just screws with people’s self worth. Maybe I just assume a basic level of research, comprehension, common sense. Etc. On what they are choosing. Naive on my part I guess. In real life I don’t flat out tell grown adults they are wrong if their choices don’t affect me. Unless they want my opinion. Asking for an opinion about the Keto diet vs asking how to set their macros for the Keto diet warrant completely different answers.18 -
Oh, and the "mad rush" is just a bunch of people all posting at the same time. I often see a post with no replies, start typing mine, and by the time I hit "Post" I'm like the tenth post already saying the same thing. Damn you crappy typing skillz!!!12
-
youngmomtaz wrote: »I still don’t think that having a moral standpoint on it should make it “more ok” and less questioned than Keto eating. Not saying either should be questioned. It just feels like there is a mad rush to be the first person the tell them that they don’t have to eat that way instead of actually helping them.
It doesn't make it less questioned, but some responses are just a little silly (like the one given in the OP). In certain contexts, there will be a lot of pushback on posts involving veganism.
- any claims that can't be substantiated via peer-reviewed science will get some pushback
- becoming vegan due to netflix documentaries gets pushback
- certain forms of veganism get, at very least, mild pushback (eg: raw vegans get some since it can be healthy, but you have to take great care with some things, especially when it comes to protein levels and meeting lysine requirements, 80-10-10 gets pushback due to too low levels of dietary fat and protein, etc).
From a pure dietary standpoint, veganism gets challenged in the same sorts of ways that keto does. It's a little different, though, because veganism doesn't carry with it some sort of implied macro preference. It's somewhat associated with higher than average carb levels, but you can be a lower carb vegan if you want, too.3 -
Choosing should be made freely and on an informed basis, and those decisions are great for people's self worth. Struggling every step of the way messes with people's self worth.youngmomtaz wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »
No, it's just a mad rush to be the person to convince themyoungmomtaz wrote: »Thanks for all the thoughts everyone! The ethical standpoint of vegetarian/veganism is actually, embarrassingly, completely honestly, something I had forgotten. Of the IRL people I know who eat in those styles only one does so because she can’t stand the texture of meat. Not a love for the animal but just a dislike of meat. The rest do it for “health”.
I still don’t think that having a moral standpoint on it should make it “more ok” and less questioned than Keto eating. Not saying either should be questioned. It just feels like there is a mad rush to be the first person the tell them that they don’t have to eat that way instead of actually helping them.
Do you really think NOT telling them that they don't have to if they don't want to, is helping?
I do actually. Once they have made a decision, why make them question it every step of the way? That just screws with people’s self worth. Maybe I just assume a basic level of research, comprehension, common sense. Etc. On what they are choosing. Naive on my part I guess. In real life I don’t flat out tell grown adults they are wrong if their choices don’t affect me. Unless they want my opinion. Asking for an opinion about the Keto diet vs asking how to set their macros for the Keto diet warrant completely different answers.11 -
Oh, and the "mad rush" is just a bunch of people all posting at the same time. I often see a post with no replies, start typing mine, and by the time I hit "Post" I'm like the tenth post already saying the same thing. Damn you crappy typing skillz!!!
Yup.youngmomtaz wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »
No, it's just a mad rush to be the person to convince themyoungmomtaz wrote: »Thanks for all the thoughts everyone! The ethical standpoint of vegetarian/veganism is actually, embarrassingly, completely honestly, something I had forgotten. Of the IRL people I know who eat in those styles only one does so because she can’t stand the texture of meat. Not a love for the animal but just a dislike of meat. The rest do it for “health”.
I still don’t think that having a moral standpoint on it should make it “more ok” and less questioned than Keto eating. Not saying either should be questioned. It just feels like there is a mad rush to be the first person the tell them that they don’t have to eat that way instead of actually helping them.
Do you really think NOT telling them that they don't have to if they don't want to, is helping?
I do actually. Once they have made a decision, why make them question it every step of the way? That just screws with people’s self worth. Maybe I just assume a basic level of research, comprehension, common sense. Etc. On what they are choosing. Naive on my part I guess. In real life I don’t flat out tell grown adults they are wrong if their choices don’t affect me. Unless they want my opinion. Asking for an opinion about the Keto diet vs asking how to set their macros for the Keto diet warrant completely different answers.
I don't perceive the following exchange as making the person question it, I see it as giving them facts:
OP: "I really love carbs, but I know I should eat low carb to lose weight. My friend lots tons of weight doing low carb, and I keep reading how it's better than cutting calories. However, I am struggling as I keep going over and feel low energy and don't seem to be losing since the first 3 days, when I lost 5 lb, what can I do?"
Responder: "Well, you actually don't have to eat low carb to lose, weight loss is about the calorie deficit. Some find it easier to keep a deficit with low carb, but many do not, or find it much harder even. If you enjoy carbs, maybe try the MFP default and counting calories and if you are hungry you may want to find changing things up, like lowering carbs or playing with meal times or increasing fiber or protein or vegetables."
I really don't see how anyone could find that bothersome unless they think that acknowledging that not everyone needs to do low carb = bad.
It's fair, I think, to understand that certain types of eating are being promoted very heavily in corners of the world off MFP. Many of us (not me, specifically) run into people spouting the need to do keto or various keto myths (like that calories don't matter, that you have to do keto to burn fat) on places like FB, so think it's worth acknowledging it.
I am someone who sometimes says those things, but I am not anti keto at all, and think low carb can be an easier way to keep a calorie deficit for many (especially if low carb is defined to include 150 g and under or anything under 40% or some such). I also think if people are interested in trying something, they should -- I've tried lots of things. But I think they should do it based on correct information, so if they claim that keto is necessary or the only way to burn fat or makes calories irrelevant or, say, that carbs are unhealthy, then I will correct that.
I'll also happily give examples of how I constructed my diet when doing LCHF too, and often do, and I will link to the low carb forum. I sometimes think people read in negativity where none is intended at all, and that's too bad. Seeing someone saying "keto is not necessary for weight loss" as anti keto is wrong.11 -
fuzzylop72 wrote: »youngmomtaz wrote: »I still don’t think that having a moral standpoint on it should make it “more ok” and less questioned than Keto eating. Not saying either should be questioned. It just feels like there is a mad rush to be the first person the tell them that they don’t have to eat that way instead of actually helping them.
It doesn't make it less questioned, but some responses are just a little silly (like the one given in the OP). In certain contexts, there will be a lot of pushback on posts involving veganism.
- any claims that can't be substantiated via peer-reviewed science will get some pushback
- becoming vegan due to netflix documentaries gets pushback
- certain forms of veganism get, at very least, mild pushback (eg: raw vegans get some since it can be healthy, but you have to take great care with some things, especially when it comes to protein levels and meeting lysine requirements, 80-10-10 gets pushback due to too low levels of dietary fat and protein, etc).
From a pure dietary standpoint, veganism gets challenged in the same sorts of ways that keto does. It's a little different, though, because veganism doesn't carry with it some sort of implied macro preference. It's somewhat associated with higher than average carb levels, but you can be a lower carb vegan if you want, too.
Raw veganism gets questioned a LOT more than keto, IMO (and. also IMO, rightly so), and so do low protein forms of veganism.3 -
fuzzylop72 wrote: »Is this generally true? I get the feeling most keto practitioners do intend on eating that way permanently, although I'll admit my knowledge of keto is pretty limited.
And most "diets" fail in maintenance because the lifestyle limitations aren't sustainable for the long haul. They may well intend to eat that way permanently - good luck to them with that.
All the people flooding the gyms this month intend to keep exercising forever, and almost all of them will be gone by end of next month.5 -
I do Keto, I have been blasted even posting that it works great for me and why I like it. There are a lot of people on MF who follow many different plans for different reason. My thought...If you personally don't follow it-don't contribute to the thread. Your not the type of person being pooled for an opinion (most of the time).
And all the responses about people struggling- remember, people struggle with CICO too. Cravings are not unique to one sort of diet plan. I don't do that to those of you who are gym queens and kings nor those of you doing CICO or Vegan or anything else. When someone asks for support on that problem, stick to what you do and know and not jump in on what other people live every day.20 -
Because alot of people are opinionated busybodies who equate knowing quite a bit about ine subject to knowing everything about any connected subject.And they generally assumeif you are not doing it thier way you are "wrong".
Personally if the person is not spreading harmful information, then there's no reason to jump on them , but I guess correcting others vets a bit addictive, lol.13 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Raw veganism gets questioned a LOT more than keto, IMO (and. also IMO, rightly so), and so do low protein forms of veganism.
You can certainly be healthy on a raw vegan diet, but there are certain issues you have to contend with and many aren't doing things like sprouting pulses. Low protein veganism, on the other hand, I don't think you can make any sort of evidence based case for (by low, I mean sub-20% of calories from protein).1
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 391.3K Introduce Yourself
- 43.4K Getting Started
- 259.7K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.6K Food and Nutrition
- 47.3K Recipes
- 232.3K Fitness and Exercise
- 387 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.7K Motivation and Support
- 7.8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.4K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.2K MyFitnessPal Information
- 22 News and Announcements
- 901 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.2K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions