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Why are some WOE more acceptable than others?
Replies
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stevencloser wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I invite others to read the thread and tell me what I am missing.
Why? You interpreted it differently. Isn't that enough said?
A forum thread really isn't a piece of abstract art that can be interpreted differently and everyone is right because there's no right or wrong interpretations. You could just ask Kommodevaran what she meant and that's reality.
Forum posts can't be interpreted differently?4 -
I could interpret your post as insulting, but that would be factually incorrect.12
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stevencloser wrote: »KWinoGelato wrote: »fuzzylop72 wrote: »Is this generally true? I get the feeling most keto practitioners do intend on eating that way permanently, although I'll admit my knowledge of keto is pretty limited.
And most "diets" fail in maintenance because the lifestyle limitations aren't sustainable for the long haul. They may well intend to eat that way permanently - good luck to them with that.
All the people flooding the gyms this month intend to keep exercising forever, and almost all of them will be gone by end of next month.
But isn’t sustainablility an individual thing, not one size fits all?
I’ll get the woo storm for this but daily calorie restriction to a CICO determined level was not sustainable for me. It meant less than 1500 calories a day as maintenance and constant hangry. So I explored some WOE’s to see what might make a sustainable lifetime eating plan for me that would not have me gain weight but also would not turn me into Ms. Hangry.
I found a WOE that works for me. I don’t evangelize it, nor do I expect it would work for the next person. I do think it is worth trying. And it isn’t Keto, I like my potatoes too much
but I sure think those looking for their individual sustainable path should try Keto if it sounds like a match for them. And I hope experienced Keto-ers see their threads with questions and help.
Because I do not think that a drive by reply along the lines of “you don’t need to do ‘x’ to lose weight” helps anyone. Or is supportive. Or even is common courtesy. IM(worthless)O it is mocking, ridiculing, shaming etc type of response.
YMMV.
Are you saying that the way you've chosen to eat enables you to eat more than the 1500 calories you've determined as your maintenance level, and still lose weight?
I now eat approx 1800 most days maintenance. But I do two 500 days to make up the caloric difference. Not denying cico. Just saying eating a DAILY calorie allotment determined by CICO without something more (WOE) was a quick road to not sustainable for me personally. Less than 1500 calories everyday makes for an awful Ms. Hangry for me.
Obviously what I find sustainable may not be for the next person and vise versa.
Less than 1500 makes you awefully hangry... so you go WAY below 1500 for two days?
Yes. Hangry 2 days (that I get to schedule and plan) and not Hangry 5 days works better for me than hangry 7 days a week.
But that is just what is sustainable for ME, I’m not evangelizing it.
My point is when it comes to what is sustainable: YMMV.
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stevencloser wrote: »I could interpret your post as insulting, but that would be factually incorrect.
So? Obviously if there are two interpretations one will be incorrect, that doesn't mean there weren't two.4 -
stevencloser wrote: »KWinoGelato wrote: »fuzzylop72 wrote: »Is this generally true? I get the feeling most keto practitioners do intend on eating that way permanently, although I'll admit my knowledge of keto is pretty limited.
And most "diets" fail in maintenance because the lifestyle limitations aren't sustainable for the long haul. They may well intend to eat that way permanently - good luck to them with that.
All the people flooding the gyms this month intend to keep exercising forever, and almost all of them will be gone by end of next month.
But isn’t sustainablility an individual thing, not one size fits all?
I’ll get the woo storm for this but daily calorie restriction to a CICO determined level was not sustainable for me. It meant less than 1500 calories a day as maintenance and constant hangry. So I explored some WOE’s to see what might make a sustainable lifetime eating plan for me that would not have me gain weight but also would not turn me into Ms. Hangry.
I found a WOE that works for me. I don’t evangelize it, nor do I expect it would work for the next person. I do think it is worth trying. And it isn’t Keto, I like my potatoes too much but I sure think those looking for their individual sustainable path should try Keto if it sounds like a match for them. And I hope experienced Keto-ers see their threads with questions and help.
Because I do not think that a drive by reply along the lines of “you don’t need to do ‘x’ to lose weight” helps anyone. Or is supportive. Or even is common courtesy. IM(worthless)O it is mocking, ridiculing, shaming etc type of response.
YMMV.
Are you saying that the way you've chosen to eat enables you to eat more than the 1500 calories you've determined as your maintenance level, and still lose weight?
I now eat approx 1800 most days maintenance. But I do two 500 days to make up the caloric difference. Not denying cico. Just saying eating a DAILY calorie allotment determined by CICO without something more (WOE) was a quick road to not sustainable for me personally. Less than 1500 calories everyday makes for an awful Ms. Hangry for me.
Obviously what I find sustainable may not be for the next person and vise versa.
Less than 1500 makes you awefully hangry... so you go WAY below 1500 for two days?
Yes. Hangry 2 days (that I get to schedule and plan) and not Hangry 5 days works better for me than hangry 7 days a week.
But that is just what is sustainable for ME, I’m not evangelizing it.
My point is when it comes to what is sustainable: YMMV.
I totally get this approach. I do similar in that I eat low calories on workdays and considerably more (sometimes more than twice as much) on the weekends. Having the weekends to look forward to helps me not be hangry during the week.2 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »KWinoGelato wrote: »fuzzylop72 wrote: »Is this generally true? I get the feeling most keto practitioners do intend on eating that way permanently, although I'll admit my knowledge of keto is pretty limited.
And most "diets" fail in maintenance because the lifestyle limitations aren't sustainable for the long haul. They may well intend to eat that way permanently - good luck to them with that.
All the people flooding the gyms this month intend to keep exercising forever, and almost all of them will be gone by end of next month.
But isn’t sustainablility an individual thing, not one size fits all?
I’ll get the woo storm for this but daily calorie restriction to a CICO determined level was not sustainable for me. It meant less than 1500 calories a day as maintenance and constant hangry. So I explored some WOE’s to see what might make a sustainable lifetime eating plan for me that would not have me gain weight but also would not turn me into Ms. Hangry.
I found a WOE that works for me. I don’t evangelize it, nor do I expect it would work for the next person. I do think it is worth trying. And it isn’t Keto, I like my potatoes too much but I sure think those looking for their individual sustainable path should try Keto if it sounds like a match for them. And I hope experienced Keto-ers see their threads with questions and help.
Because I do not think that a drive by reply along the lines of “you don’t need to do ‘x’ to lose weight” helps anyone. Or is supportive. Or even is common courtesy. IM(worthless)O it is mocking, ridiculing, shaming etc type of response.
YMMV.
Are you saying that the way you've chosen to eat enables you to eat more than the 1500 calories you've determined as your maintenance level, and still lose weight?
I now eat approx 1800 most days maintenance. But I do two 500 days to make up the caloric difference. Not denying cico. Just saying eating a DAILY calorie allotment determined by CICO without something more (WOE) was a quick road to not sustainable for me personally. Less than 1500 calories everyday makes for an awful Ms. Hangry for me.
Obviously what I find sustainable may not be for the next person and vise versa.
Less than 1500 makes you awefully hangry... so you go WAY below 1500 for two days?
Yes. Hangry 2 days (that I get to schedule and plan) and not Hangry 5 days works better for me than hangry 7 days a week.
But that is just what is sustainable for ME, I’m not evangelizing it.
My point is when it comes to what is sustainable: YMMV.
I totally get this approach. I do similar in that I eat low calories on workdays and considerably more (sometimes more than twice as much) on the weekends. Having the weekends to look forward to helps me not be hangry during the week.
Yes, so much! I wasn’t going to bother with getting into the fine points on this thread but because I know I get to eat like a normal human being on those other days I don’t feel as bad on the 500 days as I do if I have an everyday unending slog of feeling underfed and hungry.
I’d say I’m hungry in the two 500 calorie days but I’ve mostly gotten rid of the angry part.
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I've tried for quite awhile now to find a single case of LONG TERM* success with Keto for a major weight loss of 100+ lbs. (Not necessarily eating the Keto diet that long, but maintaining the cycling of the diet OR maintaining the diet daily that long—just so long as the weight loss was maintained through Keto, not weight loss surgery or illness).
"Long term" meaning 3-5 yrs or more. Haven't found one. (I have found numerous of those stories with CICO and other less drastic measures). NOT talking about someone who has fallen off the wagon, regained and relost weight over and over again either. Steady loss, long-term maintenance using only Keto as the WOE—does this happen?
I did find a Keto blogger that had lost a major amount but then her blog went dead a few yrs ago and I did some searching on social media and found she had regained her weight. Most of the success stories I find online are for the FIRST effort only, and then the bloggers or YouTubers don't follow-up with updates later.
If anyone has that level of Keto success or knows of it, please let me know.
*People think that Keto is new. It's not. It has been a diet floating around there for decades. My former mother-in-law did Keto when she joined Physician's weight loss decades ago. That's when I first heard of "ketosis" and using it for weight loss. She had to sign a waiver agreeing that she would NOT exercise at all and that they would be held blameless if she dropped dead of the heart damage the diet would likely do. I read the contract and was appalled! I was really fascinated when the Keto diet resurfaced as Keto, knowing what I did about the dangers of ketosis. She got to her normal weight, stayed there about 10 minutes, and then regained it all plus more. She cycled like that three times before giving up on weight loss completely. I'm fascinated to see why this has come back with such force. Is ANYONE finding long-term success with major amounts of weight? Or is it just the marketing and people's excitement to get it FAST at any cost to their health?8 -
@Quieau I have been keto (mostly) for going on 3 years. I have had about a 10 lb fluctuation after losing my weight (not 100+ lbs) but it continues to work best for me. Most low carbers do not frequent the main forums because there is still some kickback about the diet. There are many who have lost 50-100+ lbs in the low carb and keto forums. We tend to stick to places where we can have discussions on the diet, or find solutions to problems, without dealing with people suggesting we quit when asking for help.
I tend to only go in MFP threads that I know something about - a topic that I have researched and succeeded at. Usually that just means LCHF or keto, gluten-free/celiac or hypothyroidism or autoimmune issues, or cholesterol topics, so my response is based on what I see in these threads.
After being around the forums for a few years, I think the keto acceptance is getting a bit better. Its popularity has really taken off in the last couple of years so people are more educated about it and there are fewer incorrect posts about how it will starve the brain, raise cholesterol, it causes heart attacks, fat causes fat, it causes constipation, it causes weakness, exercise performance will suffer, it is bad for the kidneys/liver/stomach/intestines/brain, is unsustainable, it is bad for the environment, and how it causes cancer and that much fat is bad for diabetes. Fewer but many still have misconceptions about the diet that low carbers will usually quickly correct. I think referring people to MFP groups that focus on that woe is often a good way to go about it because most people do not have the information to correct these incorrect facts.
I do get irritated by posts of "why would you eat that way if you are worried about xyz? Just eat in moderation / a balanced diet instead." That's just a response for the sake of responding and hasn't helped anyone. Sometimes it comes with some snark that excited newbies are surprised at. I just block people now, and I can't even remember the last time I bothered looking at my woo's. LOL Anyways, directing people with questions to the Low Carber Daily and Keto groups is generally the kindest thing to do. They'll experience less snark, possibly get their question answered by people who are successful on this woe, and be directed towards good resources.
I have to admit that I do get the urge to go into moderation threads and start asking "why would you just try cutting back everything when you could choose LCHF" as a sort of response to keto threads where "you know, you just need to do to lose weight is eat less - you don't need to restrict yourself."
IMO All weight loss diets restrict something. Some restrict calories in everything (moderation), some restrict a meal, some skip a food group, some cut back on a macro. Restriction is the name of the game. Keto is just a way that might make restriction easier for some or a path to improve their health through food. Keto is healthy, so if people want to try it, I think they should go for it and not be discouraged from it. If they are trying it as a short term fix that is fine, but advice could then be about slowly reintroducing carbs so the dieter has a chance to learn good habits for whatever woe they continue with.
Sure, people can be told they don't need to do it to lose weight if they appear to not realize that... once. Hopefully politely and respectfully.
JMO YMMV19 -
I do get irritated by posts of "why would you eat that way if you are worried about xyz? Just eat in moderation / a balanced diet instead." That's just a response for the sake of responding and hasn't helped anyone.
Lurker chiming in.
Absolutes are rarely true.
Thank you to those who made sure people knew that they don't have to do low carb or keto to lose weight or get healthy. I was spinning my wheels and making myself miserable because I thought I needed to cut out carbs. It wasn't sustainable or needed for me. Moderation is actually perfect for me. So thank you.
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I do get irritated by posts of "why would you eat that way if you are worried about xyz? Just eat in moderation / a balanced diet instead." That's just a response for the sake of responding and hasn't helped anyone. Sometimes it comes with some snark that excited newbies are surprised at. I just block people now, and I can't even remember the last time I bothered looking at my woo's. LOL Anyways, directing people with questions to the Low Carber Daily and Keto groups is generally the kindest thing to do. They'll experience less snark, possibly get their question answered by people who are successful on this woe, and be directed towards good resources.
I have done this. Especially if the poster is struggling on staying with Keto. No reason for them to be so restrictive when everything in moderation will do just fine.
And directing them to the group of low carb/keto may be detrimental. If the group says "keto is the way to go", the person should know, it's not the ONLY way. It's not for everyone.
It's also hard to tell snark from text on a screen.11 -
Bahaha I got wooed... I'm taking it as a woo hoo good for you for finding a sustainable plan for yourself.15
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »I could interpret your post as insulting, but that would be factually incorrect.
So? Obviously if there are two interpretations one will be incorrect, that doesn't mean there weren't two.
Which is why "You could just ask Kommodeveran". Instead of assuming the worst, going with it, and shouting it around in half a dozen other threads as if it's the truth.11 -
stevencloser wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »I could interpret your post as insulting, but that would be factually incorrect.
So? Obviously if there are two interpretations one will be incorrect, that doesn't mean there weren't two.
Which is why "You could just ask Kommodeveran". Instead of assuming the worst, going with it, and shouting it around in half a dozen other threads as if it's the truth.
I think this is by far the best strategy.3 -
@Quieau I have been keto (mostly) for going on 3 years. I have had about a 10 lb fluctuation after losing my weight (not 100+ lbs) but it continues to work best for me.
Thanks for your response! So if you don't mind my asking: how many pounds did you lose (gross and net)? And do you cycle or stay keto all the time? And finally, when you say it works best for you ... compared to which? What other ones were tried and can be compared?
I ask because the general consensus is that it "works" because of the net calorie restriction, not because of the specific carb macro restriction (1000 calories intake will make you lose weight like crazy regardless of macros; I know someone claiming Keto is the only way to lose weight, but she's eating 800-900 calories a day on Keto). And the concern that the weight lost is a lot of water and muscle (compared with other less restrictive WOE).
So do you track body composition, or just weight on a scale? And what others diets were tried for comparison? Do you exercise? What type and how much?
I'm not asking to challenge you at all; I'm trying to learn and the info is VERY sparse beyond, "Wow! Keto works!" and "Wow, Keto sucks!" ... thanks!
2 -
stevencloser wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »I could interpret your post as insulting, but that would be factually incorrect.
So? Obviously if there are two interpretations one will be incorrect, that doesn't mean there weren't two.
Which is why "You could just ask Kommodeveran". Instead of assuming the worst, going with it, and shouting it around in half a dozen other threads as if it's the truth.
Agree. That does seem better than assuming either way or asking for confirmation of assumptions.1 -
Poweredbycoffee06 wrote: »
I do get irritated by posts of "why would you eat that way if you are worried about xyz? Just eat in moderation / a balanced diet instead." That's just a response for the sake of responding and hasn't helped anyone.
Lurker chiming in.
Absolutes are rarely true.
Thank you to those who made sure people knew that they don't have to do low carb or keto to lose weight or get healthy. I was spinning my wheels and making myself miserable because I thought I needed to cut out carbs. It wasn't sustainable or needed for me. Moderation is actually perfect for me. So thank you.
Keto is not right for everyone. And knowing that restricting just one macro does work for many. As I said, people can be told that keto is not needed to lose weight if they are unaware of that. Politely if possible. Many do it politely. Many don't. I have seen it written as:
"Keto is not magical. You do realize that you don't need to cut an entire macronutrient in order to lose weight, don't you? It's not sustainable in the long run anyway. Weight loss is responsible for the health benefits you just listed. Keto is in not in any way superior so get off your high horse."
To
"To lose weight you need a calorie deficit. Keto can be used as a tool for that, or helpful to some health issues, if you wish."
Technically, both responses may be correct. One is better received by me. YMMV
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notreallychris wrote: »I do get irritated by posts of "why would you eat that way if you are worried about xyz? Just eat in moderation / a balanced diet instead." That's just a response for the sake of responding and hasn't helped anyone. Sometimes it comes with some snark that excited newbies are surprised at. I just block people now, and I can't even remember the last time I bothered looking at my woo's. LOL Anyways, directing people with questions to the Low Carber Daily and Keto groups is generally the kindest thing to do. They'll experience less snark, possibly get their question answered by people who are successful on this woe, and be directed towards good resources.
I have done this. Especially if the poster is struggling on staying with Keto. No reason for them to be so restrictive when everything in moderation will do just fine.
And directing them to the group of low carb/keto may be detrimental. If the group says "keto is the way to go", the person should know, it's not the ONLY way. It's not for everyone.
It's also hard to tell snark from text on a screen.
I think for those who are making a snap decision to do keto because they read about it in Shape magazine or their favourite blogger tried it for a week, then you are probably right - moderation may be just fine.
For those who have researched it and have a reason for trying it, often people past their 30s who have health issues related to insulin resistance, then LCHF or keto may be the way to go. At least giving it a good educated try makes sense. In that case, getting information from people who know how to do it makes sense.
Plus people in those groups tend to try and help in the diet but they are generally supportive of people doing what works best for you. JMO
I do think snark is not that hard to identify in text. JMO7 -
@Quieau I have been keto (mostly) for going on 3 years. I have had about a 10 lb fluctuation after losing my weight (not 100+ lbs) but it continues to work best for me.
Thanks for your response! So if you don't mind my asking: how many pounds did you lose (gross and net)? And do you cycle or stay keto all the time? And finally, when you say it works best for you ... compared to which? What other ones were tried and can be compared?
I ask because the general consensus is that it "works" because of the net calorie restriction, not because of the specific carb macro restriction (1000 calories intake will make you lose weight like crazy regardless of macros; I know someone claiming Keto is the only way to lose weight, but she's eating 800-900 calories a day on Keto). And the concern that the weight lost is a lot of water and muscle (compared with other less restrictive WOE).
So do you track body composition, or just weight on a scale? And what others diets were tried for comparison? Do you exercise? What type and how much?
I'm not asking to challenge you at all; I'm trying to learn and the info is VERY sparse beyond, "Wow! Keto works!" and "Wow, Keto sucks!" ... thanks!
I lost about 40 lbs in around 5 months. I regained about 10 lbs when my health issues flared up and I was eating too much as I tried to raise my carb level a bit. I lost that 10 again but about 5 have crept back on this winter.
I maintained for about 2 years now.
I stay mostly keto. While losing it was all keto. When I maintain well, I am keto. When my carbs hit 50 g or so, I start gaining. It triggers my appetite. Plus I have reactive hypoglycaemia so when I rely on carbs for fuel, I experience fatigue, lightheadedness, shaking and a lot of hunger every 2-3 hours after eating. If I keep carbs quite low, it never happens and it makes eating less easier.
For most of my adult life I followed moderation. I was slowly gaining weight doing that. About 25 lbs in 20 years.
I lost all of that extra weight once when I followed Tosca Reno's Eat Clean Diet. I felt good and lost weight. In hind site, it was low carb. I still remember starting maintenance. I'll just have the one muffin. Pfft. Increasing carbs = weight gain for me. I regained my weight.
Once I developed insulin resistance, I gained another 15 lbs in just over a year while failing at trying to lose weight with moderation. I can't handle moderate carbs and my health was suffering.
I switched to keto to address my IR and other health issues. It worked. It became easy so I will stay with it.
Keto works for weight loss due to calorie restriction. Some people with IR, like me, may lose slightly faster on aLCHF diet but it is not a large difference. For those without metabolic problems, I have not seen anything that shows a LCHF has an edge over regular diets. Some might be less hungry eating keto, but for healthy people, that is the only weight loss benefit.
Keto is fairly muscle sparing after the first few days, but a really low calorie diet is not smart. When I lost, without exercise, I was eating about 1500kcal a day.2 -
Poweredbycoffee06 wrote: »Bahaha I got wooed... I'm taking it as a woo hoo good for you for finding a sustainable plan for yourself.
Lol. If it is a keto thread, you can expects woos.5 -
Poweredbycoffee06 wrote: »Bahaha I got wooed... I'm taking it as a woo hoo good for you for finding a sustainable plan for yourself.
Lol. If it is a keto thread, you can expects woos.
Oh, I didn't expect anything less.0
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