How can a type II diabetic gain muscle?

Fithealthyforlife

Is it common for a doctor to tell a person who is of normal weight or below with type two diabetes to watch their weight? Also, when gaining muscle, isn't a five pound muscle gain pretty huge and impressive over a year? I'm not sure of the answers. I do know that when I was 29 years old and 180 pounds (pregnant) with gestational diabetes, my diabetic nurse told me that if I don't keep my weight down I will definitely have type two diabetes by the time I reach 40. I didn't do much research, but I did heed her advice, and kept my weight about ten pounds or less over my BMI. I guess I interpreted "keep your weight down" as within a certain range

Btw, I also made sure I ate protein at every meal. Also, as a side note and off topic, (sorry), this nurse was morbidly obese and had type two diabetes herself, but she was very influential in my life and I am grateful that she had the guts to march into my hospital room after my baby was born and wag her finger at me:)

Thanks for the perspective! I have heard the same thing about gestational DM: increased risk for type II later, especially if things go out of whack.

As far as a 5-lb gain in muscle per year...no, honestly that's extremely low for a guy who has just started and is at a low bodyweight and muscle mass level. It means the person probably isn't eating enough/eating properly (though it could be a training or recuperation issue, too...if they are gaining weight on a surplus, but not muscle).

Then again, maybe very slow gains are better for a type II diabetic. I guess it depends how much time the person has in which to gain muscle before the disorder would have progressed to a point where it places a serious constriction on their health.

But for the sake of this topic, I'm assuming the person in question is not obese, and is at a low normal weight...and that their diet is already healthy. Such a person would not have a severe case of diabetes type II, in all likelihood.

But there are people in that boat, and this question is geared specifically to them...whether they were never obese, or were obese in the past and lost weight. Actually, it's geared to the subset who wants to build 20+ lbs of muscle.

outofworkpediatrician

So, what if (I'm assuming you're a medical doctor from your name) you had an adult patient (I know you're a pediatrician, but nonetheless) who was type II, and getting into hardcore lifting...and had to eat at least a 500-calorie surplus to bulk...? How would this person do it in a safe way? Would they just eat more of what they were already eating and keep tracking it carefully?

exactly. keeping track of how much you exercise and how much you are eating and regular blood sugar checking to keep track of your blood sugar is the key. even though for simplicity you can say eat more of what you are eating, you probably need guidance by a nutritionist, when you are into heavy lifting, and muscle build up, its advisable to increase the protein intake, and not to increase the carbohydrate content of you food too much. also when you have high calorie spending, you would be advised to eat more complex carbs, which will keep your blood sugar steady than simple carbs like sugars which causes more blood sugar fluctuations.

Hearts_2015

interesting...be back to read later

6ftamazon

Subbing for an interesting read. I'm type 1 diabetic and also curious about this

albertabeefy

I'm a Type II diabetic who maintains a very tight control on BG levels ... (I secrete very little insulin - and thus am very cautious with my CHO intake.)

I've had to go through this the last few years ... I atrophied greatly from a lot of bed-rest due to spinal issues and am still working at building mass, trying to reclaim some of what I used to have.

For me I go through both bulking and cutting stages.

When bulking I get close to 30% of my calories from protein but still chose to stay low-carb (under 10% of calories - this is what *I* need to maintain BG control). The rest of my intake is fat. Yes, I always eat a slight surplus when bulking, around 500-700 calories a day additional.

As far as gaining weight (ie; getting fat) - when doing my bulking I start at around 9% bodyfat and work my way up to 15%. I simply won't go higher. Unfortunately when I add fat mass, it tends to be visceral, which is the least healthy - and impacts insulin sensitivity the most - so I refuse to get above 15% bodyfat.

Once I hit 15% I start dieting to reduce bodyfat to my preferred levels. What I find once I've dieted back down to 9 or 10% is that *typically* during a bulking stage the NET result is I've added about a pound of of muscle - not much, but it's something. I typically do this 2 to 3 times a year - so I'm actually putting on a whopping 3 lbs of lean mass per year.

I personally won't add as much mass as some others as 1) I'm nearing 50 years old now, and 2) I produce very little insulin naturally - and it's the 2nd-most anabolic hormone.

FYI when I diet back down to where I look and feel best, I reduce my protein intake to 20-25% of my calories.

Fithealthyforlife

I'm a Type II diabetic who maintains a very tight control on BG levels ... (I secrete very little insulin - and thus am very cautious with my CHO intake.)

I've had to go through this the last few years ... I atrophied greatly from a lot of bed-rest due to spinal issues and am still working at building mass, trying to reclaim some of what I used to have.

For me I go through both bulking and cutting stages.

When bulking I get close to 30% of my calories from protein but still chose to stay low-carb (under 10% of calories - this is what *I* need to maintain BG control). The rest of my intake is fat. Yes, I always eat a slight surplus when bulking, around 500-700 calories a day additional.

As far as gaining weight (ie; getting fat) - when doing my bulking I start at around 9% bodyfat and work my way up to 15%. I simply won't go higher. Unfortunately when I add fat mass, it tends to be visceral, which is the least healthy - and impacts insulin sensitivity the most - so I refuse to get above 15% bodyfat.

Once I hit 15% I start dieting to reduce bodyfat to my preferred levels. What I find once I've dieted back down to 9 or 10% is that *typically* during a bulking stage the NET result is I've added about a pound of of muscle - not much, but it's something. I typically do this 2 to 3 times a year - so I'm actually putting on a whopping 3 lbs of lean mass per year.

I personally won't add as much mass as some others as 1) I'm nearing 50 years old now, and 2) I produce very little insulin naturally - and it's the 2nd-most anabolic hormone.

FYI when I diet back down to where I look and feel best, I reduce my protein intake to 20-25% of my calories.

Excellent response! This proves it can be done. And it tells people how you're doing it effectively and safely. Thank you.

It also seems that having type II itself decreases ability to gain muscle. This makes sense, because the insulin is not being used at would be in a person without type II due to decreased sensitivity.

But I have also read that the greater your muscle mass, the higher your insulin sensitivity. So each pound of muscle that you add may be helping to slow the progression of the disorder! It might actually get easier to add muscle as your sensitivity improves, too! (Just conjecture on my part...please let us know how it goes over the next few months and years.)

raggiemom

There's a group on here for type 2 diabetics...you might want to check it out. I haven't read all the posts but this topic might be covered there.

heybales

Well, I'm going by my own experience. I'm trying to find an optimal surplus, and it's north of 500 cal to gain half a pound a week. If I were diabetic, wouldn't that be dangerous?

Then the math is wrong somewhere.

500 cal above true maintenance would be 1 lb weekly - if you are only seeing 1/2 lb, then you have not really figured out your maintenance correctly.

If truly gaining 1/2 weekly, then your real maintenance is 250 below what you are eating on average.
No way around that.

And I realize you say gaining, but it is muscle after all with minimal fat, or at least a healthy ratio of it still.

The bigger problem I see as was mentioned, since insulin is an anabolic hormone, then levels need to be very correct to really benefit from it.

And as far as eating more, adding 250 extra calories to the whole day, like a mere 60 extra calories to 4 meals during the day - that's nothing, you should be able to adjust things easily there.

If the person knows about how many calories starts causing problems no matter the amount of carbs in the meal, then you keep the total calories per meal at that level, and add an extra meal somewhere.

And you eating extra now would be a potential future problem if you were not exercising, taking in lots of carbs, and overweight.
But you aren't any of those.

So you are not in a catch 22. Someone already there is in a slower catch 22 depending on how badly their disease has progressed.

6ftamazon

I'm a Type II diabetic who maintains a very tight control on BG levels ... (I secrete very little insulin - and thus am very cautious with my CHO intake.)

I've had to go through this the last few years ... I atrophied greatly from a lot of bed-rest due to spinal issues and am still working at building mass, trying to reclaim some of what I used to have.

For me I go through both bulking and cutting stages.

When bulking I get close to 30% of my calories from protein but still chose to stay low-carb (under 10% of calories - this is what *I* need to maintain BG control). The rest of my intake is fat. Yes, I always eat a slight surplus when bulking, around 500-700 calories a day additional.

As far as gaining weight (ie; getting fat) - when doing my bulking I start at around 9% bodyfat and work my way up to 15%. I simply won't go higher. Unfortunately when I add fat mass, it tends to be visceral, which is the least healthy - and impacts insulin sensitivity the most - so I refuse to get above 15% bodyfat.

Once I hit 15% I start dieting to reduce bodyfat to my preferred levels. What I find once I've dieted back down to 9 or 10% is that *typically* during a bulking stage the NET result is I've added about a pound of of muscle - not much, but it's something. I typically do this 2 to 3 times a year - so I'm actually putting on a whopping 3 lbs of lean mass per year.

I personally won't add as much mass as some others as 1) I'm nearing 50 years old now, and 2) I produce very little insulin naturally - and it's the 2nd-most anabolic hormone.

FYI when I diet back down to where I look and feel best, I reduce my protein intake to 20-25% of my calories.

Excellent response! This proves it can be done. And it tells people how you're doing it effectively and safely. Thank you.

It also seems that having type II itself decreases ability to gain muscle. This makes sense, because the insulin is not being used at would be in a person without type II due to decreased sensitivity.

But I have also read that the greater your muscle mass, the higher your insulin sensitivity. So each pound of muscle that you add may be helping to slow the progression of the disorder! It might actually get easier to add muscle as your sensitivity improves, too! (Just conjecture on my part...please let us know how it goes over the next few months and years.)

Definitely true...when I was lifting weights a few years ago, I hardly took any insulin. I averaged 3 units per 30g of carbs. Now it's 7 (although better than the 10 I started with)

albertabeefy

But I have also read that the greater your muscle mass, the higher your insulin sensitivity. So each pound of muscle that you add may be helping to slow the progression of the disorder! It might actually get easier to add muscle as your sensitivity improves, too! (Just conjecture on my part...please let us know how it goes over the next few months and years.)

Definitely true...when I was lifting weights a few years ago, I hardly took any insulin. I averaged 3 units per 30g of carbs. Now it's 7 (although better than the 10 I started with)

I'm not sure it's the muscle-mass, OR the interval-nature of weight-training. We already know from research that BOTH weight training and HIIT (High-Intensity-Interval-Training) improve insulin-sensitivity... but interestingly, improvements in both seem to happen before muscle-composition changes actually take place.

As several research trials have shown insulin-sensitivity improvements without muscle-composition changes, I'd suggest it's the intense-interval nature of the regular exercise, rather than the addition of muscle mass. Just my thoughts ...

6ftamazon

But I have also read that the greater your muscle mass, the higher your insulin sensitivity. So each pound of muscle that you add may be helping to slow the progression of the disorder! It might actually get easier to add muscle as your sensitivity improves, too! (Just conjecture on my part...please let us know how it goes over the next few months and years.)

Definitely true...when I was lifting weights a few years ago, I hardly took any insulin. I averaged 3 units per 30g of carbs. Now it's 7 (although better than the 10 I started with)

I'm not sure it's the muscle-mass, OR the interval-nature of weight-training. We already know from research that BOTH weight training and HIIT (High-Intensity-Interval-Training) improve insulin-sensitivity... but interestingly, improvements in both seem to happen before muscle-composition changes actually take place.

As several research trials have shown insulin-sensitivity improvements without muscle-composition changes, I'd suggest it's the intense-interval nature of the regular exercise, rather than the addition of muscle mass. Just my thoughts ...

Interesting idea . I didn't know about hiit affecting insulin sensitivity, although that could explain a lot for me.

albertabeefy

Interesting idea . I didn't know about hiit affecting insulin sensitivity, although that could explain a lot for me.

Yes, it's great for diabetics:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21868679

... and NON-diabetics even:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2640399/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2991639/

Bear in mind even Type I diabetics are now often presenting with signs of Insulin-Resistance, most-often these are individuals eating highly refined/processed foods who simply bolus for their carb-intake without necessarily looking at the health implications of eating so much processed carbohydrate.

Non-diabetics benefit from HIIT by improving the sensitivity to the insulin they secrete naturally as well as by the exercise itself lowering blood glucose levels not just during the activity, but for up to two hours afterwards.

As such HIIT has a glycemic a benefit to anyone, really.

Fithealthyforlife

Interesting idea . I didn't know about hiit affecting insulin sensitivity, although that could explain a lot for me.

Yes, it's great for diabetics:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21868679

... and NON-diabetics even:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2640399/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2991639/

Bear in mind even Type I diabetics are now often presenting with signs of Insulin-Resistance, most-often these are individuals eating highly refined/processed foods who simply bolus for their carb-intake without necessarily looking at the health implications of eating so much processed carbohydrate.

Non-diabetics benefit from HIIT by improving the sensitivity to the insulin they secrete naturally as well as by the exercise itself lowering blood glucose levels not just during the activity, but for up to two hours afterwards.

As such HIIT has a glycemic a benefit to anyone, really.

This is big stuff, and will help people with diabetes type II, and also those like myself who might be at increased risk for it because a grandparent, uncle, or whomever has it.

The thing about muscle...I believe was due to the idea that the more muscle you have, the more metabolically active tissue you have that can use glucose. Of course, insulin is also needed to shuttle that glucose into muscles...and functioning receptors are needed for this as well.

After doing some more reading, it appears that full-fledged type II is actually far more than just advanced insulin resistance...as you said, the body actually decreases its insulin production drastically as it progresses...due to fatigued beta-cells.