Lifting in a deficit

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Replies

  • sijomial
    sijomial Posts: 19,811 Member
    You don't automatically burn muscle by doing cardio in a deficit - that's utter twaddle. Using muscle for fuel is a last resort.
    I "do cardio" and don't look like a twig.
    Look at non-elite marathon runners and they are in all shapes and sizes.

    Elite level marathon runners have to be very light and lean - otherwise they wouldn't be elite, but you can't project that into the whole population.

    OP - I'm 57 on Tuesday, still getting stronger, still able to add muscle - just very slowly!

    Keep at it, stop wondering about what ifs, you know what to do to be the best you that you can be and that really is all that matters.
  • donjtomasco
    donjtomasco Posts: 789 Member
    Thank you SIJ!!!!! That was perfect and I am glad to hear you are getting stronger and adding muscle, who cares at what rate, you are adding! I am not looking to be in the seniors body building Olympics. I just want to be healthier and hopefully stronger and that it might show also. Your testimonial was very helpful!
  • dvannetzel
    dvannetzel Posts: 6 Member
    I agree. You all take things to the extreme. I will add marathon runners is an extreme example. I am saying do less cardio or cardio in moderation. Just like most things, things in moderation are usually ok, but too much or too little probably not good. I do cardio myself, but not extreme.
    Do not expect miracles over night, but diet is a big part of lean muscle mass. Not just cutting calories but the right amount of macros.
  • donjtomasco
    donjtomasco Posts: 789 Member
    I don't think anyone would consider my cardio extreme. I treadmill 60 minutes usually every day of the week, 3 mph @ 1% incline. Today upped it to 1.5% at 3.2. I play tennis doubles (hard tennis) twice a week, and lift for 60-75 min every other day. So, diet is important but getting older impresses on me how important lifting is. Physically & Mentally.
  • richardgavel
    richardgavel Posts: 1,001 Member
    My .02 on cardio and muscle mass gains. I personally struggle on cardio days to eat enough to put myself in a net surplus calorie wise with the burn created by the cardio. After a year and a half of deficit eating, it's tough to allow myself to eat more. Second is the recovery of the body. It's only going to be able to recover so much and ifit has to spend some time recovering from cardio, that's less that it can do to recover from lifting to build more muscle.

    Neither of these prevent me from doing cardio and lifting, as a triathlete. But they are reasons for me to recognize gains will come very slowly.
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,373 MFP Moderator
    dvannetzel wrote: »
    You are burning muscle mass with the cardio and caloric reduction. You can do cardio, just in moderation. You may lean out, but you will not pack on muscle mass. You should look into the ketogenic diet, along with strength training, and lighter cardio. Cut your carbs out, and the weight and fat will come off. Look at your marathon runners. How do they look? Like twigs. You can do strength training which incorporates cardio at the same time with drop sets, supersets, and timed exercises.

    Pretty much this is all wrong, especially for what the OP wants to achieve. First, a person will use glycgoen and fat reserves prior to converting amino acids for energy. If a person is able to keep up with calories, eating adequate protein, then they will not "burn" muscle doing cardio. Muscle loss occurs when protein degradation occurs at a higher rate of protein synthesis. The occurs at higher rates with low calorie diets and inadequate training (since resistance training can stimulate MPS).

    And again, telling someone to look into keto who is concerned about muscle gains is not helpful. At best, keto has been associated as muscle sparring. At best, the person can try and look into CKD/TKD but it's still not as optimal as a diet that incorporates carbs. And not, going keto doesn't just make the weight come right off. There are a ton of threads on here about people going keto and not being able to lose weight or even gaining. It only helps with weight loss if, and only if, it naturally allows them to cut calories.
  • donjtomasco
    donjtomasco Posts: 789 Member
    Thank you!

    Related question (kind of), is it better to NOT do the treadmill on lifting days? I typically life for 60-75 minutes then treadmill for 60 minutes.

    My rational brain is telling me that my cardio is not at a point that it would factor into anything I am doing lifting wise, since it is not THAT strenuous, I am just burning around 560-580 calories on the treadmill (according to the treadmill calculator online, which contradicts the treadmill that says I burn around 400 calories - such wide differences only proving that this is not an exact science).
  • richardgavel
    richardgavel Posts: 1,001 Member
    I work out 6-7 days a week, but it's either a cardio day or a lift day, not both. At most, there might be a 45 min walk the same day as lifting. I also try to schedule things effectively day to day. For example, with lifting 3 days a week, that means there is always a 2 day break. That first day may be more intense or longer run, while the second is lighter. This means I'm fresher for the subsequent lifts (especially since I do Stronglifts which has squats every lift day).
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,373 MFP Moderator
    Thank you!

    Related question (kind of), is it better to NOT do the treadmill on lifting days? I typically life for 60-75 minutes then treadmill for 60 minutes.

    My rational brain is telling me that my cardio is not at a point that it would factor into anything I am doing lifting wise, since it is not THAT strenuous, I am just burning around 560-580 calories on the treadmill (according to the treadmill calculator online, which contradicts the treadmill that says I burn around 400 calories - such wide differences only proving that this is not an exact science).

    I personally would separate.
  • californiagirl2012
    californiagirl2012 Posts: 2,625 Member
    edited February 2017
    I have personally proved for my own self that you can BUILD muscle and build strength at a deficit, not too low, but yes. The best way to prove it is with a DXA/DEXA scan, then you can believe real data and not everyone's opinions and based on looking in the mirror, etc. Otherwise it's way too subjective. And even in my 50's. I proved this at age 50, I'm 56 now.
  • not_a_runner
    not_a_runner Posts: 1,343 Member
    If cardio after lifts is what works best for you and what you enjoy, do it that way.
    I always do my cardio after lifting because that's when is most convenient for me. (Plus I'm already sweaty, and I can use my off days for things other than the gym.)
    A 60 min incline treadmill walk is not going to be very taxing no matter how you swing it, and LISS cardio can aid in recovery.
  • sijomial
    sijomial Posts: 19,811 Member
    Thank you!

    Related question (kind of), is it better to NOT do the treadmill on lifting days? I typically life for 60-75 minutes then treadmill for 60 minutes.

    My rational brain is telling me that my cardio is not at a point that it would factor into anything I am doing lifting wise, since it is not THAT strenuous, I am just burning around 560-580 calories on the treadmill (according to the treadmill calculator online, which contradicts the treadmill that says I burn around 400 calories - such wide differences only proving that this is not an exact science).

    Depends on what you are trying to achieve with your treadmill work IMHO.
    If your treadmill session is just easy calorie burning and/or endurance base building then don't see what you are doing as being a problem. The total calorie burn from your sessions shouldn't be an issue unless you are really under-feeding yourself, but that's more a diet and deficit problem than an exercise problem.

    On the other hand my cardio training has a definite performance purpose and I want to be fresh and focussed on it. Also when I have two hour blocks of time free for exercise it would be a two hour cycling session as that fits my particular goals.
    My overwhelming preference is to separate the workouts, alternate days the majority of the time. But I'm not you!



  • donjtomasco
    donjtomasco Posts: 789 Member
    THANKS! And Tresa and SLJ, I failed to mention (I think) that my tread milling is always walking. I am not a runner and don't want to pound my legs. I get enough of that on the tennis court. So yes SLJ, you are saying what I do, which is nothing specific or performance intended (like you said - I liked that), it is strictly to burn calories, and to continue to build up some muscle in my hip. And Tresa, I always do my tread milling after lifting, since some days at the gym, it can get backed up, so I would prefer to at least get my full lifting done if it eats into my cardio time. But I like to cardio after the lifting anyway, so that I am 'fresher' for the lifting.

    This has been really helpful everyone. Thank you all!
  • donjtomasco
    donjtomasco Posts: 789 Member
    Oh, and thank you Californiagirl, I will check that out. Also helpful to hear this from another 'young person' like myself. :)
  • Rhody_Hoosier
    Rhody_Hoosier Posts: 688 Member
    edited February 2017
    Pretty much all of this.

    I can tell you I just dumped 60 pounds and I am working my butt off to regain strength that I KNOW I had before and don't have now as a result of my weight loss. But I was obese. And I panicked. And I had some other stuff happen...and I did the only thing I know how to do when stuff goes sideways. I hit the gym.

    I can tell you this much...I don't have nearly the same number of plates on the leg press that I used to, yet I'm at my lowest weight in over 12 years. 8 years ago I was pressing with far more plates than I can stack on the sled now.

    My bench press disappeared too. It's amazing what happens when you "shed the pounds" thinking...hey I'm gonna lose this weight and look great, but it isn't that easy.

    (EDIT) and yes I dropped most of the weight (with the exception of the last 10 pounds) running a deficit. I've been running about 250 calories over CICO the last month to work on those last 10 pounds (give or take...it's not super exact.)
    SideSteel wrote: »
    I have two main points in response to your post:

    1) I don't think anyone can conclude with absolute certainty whether or not you are gaining muscle tissue. That being said, I DO think it's possible to build muscle in a deficit depending on the deficit size, the distance you are from your genetic limits, whether or not you previously were in fantastic shape (possibly due to satellite cells from previous training experiences), your training program, how well you partition nutrients (genetic), how well you respond to exercise (genetic), how lean you are during the diet, etc.

    And so it's incredibly complex which is why a simple yes or no answer isn't typically correct.

    (EDIT: A MAJOR portion of strength is rate coding which is basically a neurological process involving how efficiently you send signals to cause muscles to fire)

    2) It doesn't really matter for you or anyone else under most circumstances.

    Here's why I say this. Lifting weights will give you more muscle mass than you would have had were you to not lift weights. This is true regardless of whether or not you gain additional muscle mass over the course of a dieting phase.

    For example, if someone goes on a diet and loses 100lbs in a year without lifting weights, they might lose a mix of fat mass and fluids and other non fat tissues some of which would be skeletal muscle. They may end up with 20lbs less muscle than they started with.

    If that same person were to have dieted down 100lbs with a well designed lifting program, even if they didn't gain any muscle at all, they might fully maintain muscle mass which means a greater portion of their losses came from non muscle tissue. And so they could end up with 20lbs additional muscle mass compared to the previous scenario with no lifting.

    And so you still end up with more muscle at the end of the diet if you choose to lift weights.

    I know you probably know this already, but not everybody does which is why I'm typing it out this way.

    Lifting weights will give you more muscle than you would have had without lifting weights, and this is true regardless of what state of energy balance you are in (deficit/mainitenance/surplus).