How does cardio cause muscle loss?
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LoneWolfRunner wrote: »I think this thread got way too complicated and pointless. Too much science will totally ruin a perfectly good plan to eat well and train hard with great results. No one really really cares about wet muscles, dry muscles, blah blah blah. Go outside and run hard. Go to the gym and lift hard. Go home and eat right. (And yeah, you know what that means...it's common sense). Losing weight and getting in shape is not complicated. People make it hard because they want shortcuts and do not want to exercise self-discipline. 25 years ago I competed in some natural bodybuilding contests. My trainer and I just pounded the crap out of the weights, worked in some cardio and cut the crap out of my diet.... and it actually worked. In a relatively short period of time. And without measuring my food, without macros, without HRMs, or any of this other techie nonsense. We just worked hard, had fun and didn't over-think it.
You can ignore the science if you like but others find it valuable and there is WAY too much bro-science out there that is counter productive. But whatever your goal is then go for it. I've been working out and competing in various sports for over 30 years and frankly my trainers were well grounded in science and I still had fun and worked hard. I also worked smart.0 -
LoneWolfRunner wrote: »I think this thread got way too complicated and pointless. Too much science will totally ruin a perfectly good plan to eat well and train hard with great results. No one really really cares about wet muscles, dry muscles, blah blah blah. Go outside and run hard. Go to the gym and lift hard. Go home and eat right. (And yeah, you know what that means...it's common sense). Losing weight and getting in shape is not complicated. People make it hard because they want shortcuts and do not want to exercise self-discipline. 25 years ago I competed in some natural bodybuilding contests. My trainer and I just pounded the crap out of the weights, worked in some cardio and cut the crap out of my diet.... and it actually worked. In a relatively short period of time. And without measuring my food, without macros, without HRMs, or any of this other techie nonsense. We just worked hard, had fun and didn't over-think it.
Ok, I get what you're saying, but also, some of us can't lift hard due to injuries and other limitations, so it's reassuring to have a way of approaching things that will let us reach our goals. When I was 24, I just did whatever and it was all fine. I have to think things through a bit more now, because I have limited time and energy for working out.0 -
Given that I'm trying to gain muscle mass, it is helpful to know that there is a big difference between dry muscle tissue and overall LBM. Some people say that it takes a lot of time to gain a pound of muscle, but that's different from simply gaining LBM.LoneWolfRunner wrote: »No one really really cares about wet muscles, dry muscles0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »No_Finish_Line wrote: »never heard that before... one is when you are dehydrated i suppose? lol
LOL, well something like that but dry muscle is muscle tissue only without water or glycogen so it can weight a lot less. I can't remember the general ratios but it can but quite a bit when the muscle is full of glycogen, creatine, sodium and other water attracting compounds.
I wonder how significant that difference is for the average person in normal life.
Well, glycogen alone attracts 4g water weight per g of glycogen weight IIRC so it can be substantive. If you can store say 1g of glycogen per g weight of muscle than you've got a 5:1 ratio right there. Unfortunately, I can't recall offhand what the actual wet dry ratio is and there are various factors since glycogen can deplete and fill dynamically through the day but I would imagine at least 4:1 would be a good guess.
Works out to almost exactly 500 cal worth of stored carbs with water weighs 1 lb.
Body can store about 1500-2000 calories total carbs, higher end if endurance trained.
So only talking 4 lbs total weight of carbs and water in muscle mass.
Considering you are never totally depleted in normal state, maybe a difference of 1-2 lbs.
And it is true they lost weight but no LBM.
So in theory they could have lost muscle, but gained some glucose stores for doing more cardio. We know the latter happens when you start doing cardio, and for that to increase but no increase in LBM, something must have been lost.
But since water management in the cells is still a job of the metabolism, explains why RMR didn't go down.0 -
Correct. And if one truly does become glycogen depleted--something that rarely happens and few people on this site have ever experienced--the body will use some protein to supply those parts of the body that only derive energy via glycolysis. However the bulk of energy production is derived via beta oxidation from fat stores. Because of the limits in rate of energy production via beta oxidation, the body can only work at a max of 50-60% of VO2.max. It's called "hitting the wall" and it's not something you want to sustain for very long.
And to add to that, well before the muscles have run out of glucose stores, the blood sugar already would have dropped, and your mental state would be tad lacking, unless again you trained for that.
So for someone to actually keep being able to push hard enough to force the body to resort to protein usage at the best rate it could (which is of course slower than normal, hence the big slowdown in speed), would be rare indeed.
Azdak, correct if I'm getting this wrong, but I recall an analysis (not study per-se) of those that indeed hit the wall, they did several tests on several at finish line (I'm betting the people weren't thinking straight) that hit that state, and found that the need to walk wasn't even totally about the lack of glucose and needing to slow down for just using fat as energy, but also the muscles were just so out of control anyway (electrolytes, lactic acid, spasm, ect), that control wasn't so great anyway for trying to run even if the energy had been there at that point.
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Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »No_Finish_Line wrote: »never heard that before... one is when you are dehydrated i suppose? lol
LOL, well something like that but dry muscle is muscle tissue only without water or glycogen so it can weight a lot less. I can't remember the general ratios but it can but quite a bit when the muscle is full of glycogen, creatine, sodium and other water attracting compounds.
I wonder how significant that difference is for the average person in normal life.
Well, glycogen alone attracts 4g water weight per g of glycogen weight IIRC so it can be substantive. If you can store say 1g of glycogen per g weight of muscle than you've got a 5:1 ratio right there. Unfortunately, I can't recall offhand what the actual wet dry ratio is and there are various factors since glycogen can deplete and fill dynamically through the day but I would imagine at least 4:1 would be a good guess.
Works out to almost exactly 500 cal worth of stored carbs with water weighs 1 lb.
Body can store about 1500-2000 calories total carbs, higher end if endurance trained.
So only talking 4 lbs total weight of carbs and water in muscle mass.
Considering you are never totally depleted in normal state, maybe a difference of 1-2 lbs.
And it is true they lost weight but no LBM.
So in theory they could have lost muscle, but gained some glucose stores for doing more cardio. We know the latter happens when you start doing cardio, and for that to increase but no increase in LBM, something must have been lost.
But since water management in the cells is still a job of the metabolism, explains why RMR didn't go down.
Sounds like a reasonable analysis, thanks.0 -
LoneWolfRunner wrote: »I think this thread got way too complicated and pointless. Too much science will totally ruin a perfectly good plan to eat well and train hard with great results. No one really really cares about wet muscles, dry muscles, blah blah blah. Go outside and run hard. Go to the gym and lift hard. Go home and eat right. (And yeah, you know what that means...it's common sense). Losing weight and getting in shape is not complicated. People make it hard because they want shortcuts and do not want to exercise self-discipline. 25 years ago I competed in some natural bodybuilding contests. My trainer and I just pounded the crap out of the weights, worked in some cardio and cut the crap out of my diet.... and it actually worked. In a relatively short period of time. And without measuring my food, without macros, without HRMs, or any of this other techie nonsense. We just worked hard, had fun and didn't over-think it.
You forgot to yell at the kids to get off your lawn.
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LoneWolfRunner wrote: »I think this thread got way too complicated and pointless. Too much science will totally ruin a perfectly good plan to eat well and train hard with great results. No one really really cares about wet muscles, dry muscles, blah blah blah. Go outside and run hard. Go to the gym and lift hard. Go home and eat right. (And yeah, you know what that means...it's common sense). Losing weight and getting in shape is not complicated. People make it hard because they want shortcuts and do not want to exercise self-discipline. 25 years ago I competed in some natural bodybuilding contests. My trainer and I just pounded the crap out of the weights, worked in some cardio and cut the crap out of my diet.... and it actually worked. In a relatively short period of time. And without measuring my food, without macros, without HRMs, or any of this other techie nonsense. We just worked hard, had fun and didn't over-think it.
You forgot to yell at the kids to get off your lawn.
while shaking his fist!
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Crap...I knew I was forgetting stuff.0
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I like the way you thinkLoneWolfRunner wrote: »I think this thread got way too complicated and pointless. Too much science will totally ruin a perfectly good plan to eat well and train hard with great results. No one really really cares about wet muscles, dry muscles, blah blah blah. Go outside and run hard. Go to the gym and lift hard. Go home and eat right. (And yeah, you know what that means...it's common sense). Losing weight and getting in shape is not complicated. People make it hard because they want shortcuts and do not want to exercise self-discipline. 25 years ago I competed in some natural bodybuilding contests. My trainer and I just pounded the crap out of the weights, worked in some cardio and cut the crap out of my diet.... and it actually worked. In a relatively short period of time. And without measuring my food, without macros, without HRMs, or any of this other techie nonsense. We just worked hard, had fun and didn't over-think it.
I'm all about keeping it simple.
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Who comes up with this stuff? Cardio develops flexible dense muscle.0
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Hours of cardio can have a catabolic effect on muscle tissue, period. Ever seen a bulky distance runner? --- 7 Popular Cardio Myths = http://www.askmen.com/sports/bodybuilding_150/152_fitness_tip.html0
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Hours of cardio can have a catabolic effect on muscle tissue, period. Ever seen a bulky distance runner? --- 7 Popular Cardio Myths = http://www.askmen.com/sports/bodybuilding_150/152_fitness_tip.html
I hate to tell you this but Ask Men isn't really a great source for anything -- not even fashion.-1 -
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DoNotSpamMe73 wrote: »Who comes up with this stuff? Cardio develops flexible dense muscle.
Actually, depending on length and amount of fat burning your cardio does - it can actually cause deposits of fat to be put in the muscle area for easy access.
But your cardio system for the muscle you got needs to be maxed out before body feels the need to add more, then you got the same problem of adding muscle lifting in a deficit, except it takes even longer with cardio.
Flexible? What cardio are you doing that has such a great range of motion? Compared to what?0 -
He probably should have included the context of professional mainly, or even most age groupers.
Neither group usually wants to be carrying around extra weight that will not assist their primary goal - going as fast as possible.
I got more leg muscle than needed too compared to others I finish with. And that means could go faster if I lost some of it.
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If you run to power up interval training is good and you gain also muscles, you got to eat a lot carbs to gain,
No cardio don't cause muscles loss helps only to have lean muscles.
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NotGnarly, you're exactly correct. There are significant studies to support both sides of that issue, but the facts remain constant. Eat right, work out and include cardio. NOW, it is up to the individual to determine what and how much works for THEM and what doesn't. Every BODY is unique and requires it's own special program. Trial and error. But the one thing that is with out change for EVERYONE is persistence. Never quit. Keep going. As long as you are working toward a goal, you WILL achieve it. Once you stop. It's over.0
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He probably should have included the context of professional mainly, or even most age groupers.
Neither group usually wants to be carrying around extra weight that will not assist their primary goal - going as fast as possible.
I got more leg muscle than needed too compared to others I finish with. And that means could go faster if I lost some of it.
The elites will always move towards the ideal of their sports and in running carrying a lot of extra weight just isn't ideal but a friend of mine used to bench 365 and run marathons in the 3:30 to 4hr range so they aren't mutually exclusive. Of course, anyone who has been to an actual marathon can attest that not everyone is fits the stereotype of a runner.0
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