Thought I'd picked a healthy breakfast option ...

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Replies

  • Jolinia
    Jolinia Posts: 846 Member
    Acg67 wrote: »
    Jolinia wrote: »
    Acg67 wrote: »
    Jolinia wrote: »
    eric_sg61 wrote: »
    According to Lustig, fructose is as toxic to the liver as alcohol. But, fructose from fruit is fine because fiber............so does this mean I can add Metamucil to my whiskey and cheat the system. Let's party

    Fruit also has antioxidants. Lustig states that the liver handles fructose better if the diet is high in antioxidants as well. Which it isn't going to be if someone is mostly living on cheese pizza and ice cream and soda.

    Source:



    LOLStig

    http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/988127/scientific-review-of-lolstigs-fat-chance

    If you don't like him, your CV in a relevant field better be equally as impressive as his, otherwise, who cares if you LOL?

    Now if you want to post sources who do have equally impressive CVs and who don't work for the food industry, I'll be glad to have a new lecture to listen to. But otherwise, no.

    Except his BS has already been exposed by mult people with just as impressive CVs as his, only ignorant idiots use him to support their claims

    Link to lecture to back your claim, please, with CV and disclosures of speaker. I will listen to it, and gladly, if you have it.
  • PeachyCarol
    PeachyCarol Posts: 8,029 Member
    edited February 2015
  • goddessofawesome
    goddessofawesome Posts: 563 Member
    This thread needs to die. Or at least have some people take their discussion off-line.
  • Jolinia
    Jolinia Posts: 846 Member

    Not even close to an equally impressive CV. And he works in the fitness field. How much of what he does is relevant to the average, non athlete American's health?
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,552 Member
    Jolinia wrote: »
    eric_sg61 wrote: »
    According to Lustig, fructose is as toxic to the liver as alcohol. But, fructose from fruit is fine because fiber............so does this mean I can add Metamucil to my whiskey and cheat the system. Let's party

    Fruit also has antioxidants. Lustig states that the liver handles fructose better if the diet is high in antioxidants as well. Which it isn't going to be if someone is mostly living on cheese pizza and ice cream and soda.

    Source:


    You do realize that the media hype about super foods and antioxidants is kind of just that- hype.

    eat a balanced diet with variety- you'll be fine. Fruit doesn't win because it has more fiber or more "antioxidants".

    Secondly... back on almost topic.

    And someone PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE break down for me how low/no fat = no sugar??

    why are we really shocked fat =/=sugar. I'm just really struggling to wrap my brain around all this.
  • PeachyCarol
    PeachyCarol Posts: 8,029 Member
    Jolinia wrote: »

    Not even close to an equally impressive CV. And he works in the fitness field. How much of what he does is relevant to the average, non athlete American's health?

    Forget the CV, please. Read his references, since he went to the trouble of making them.

  • jgnatca
    jgnatca Posts: 14,465 Member
    Sugarbeat wrote: »
    There are no "bad" foods at first, perhaps. But the longer you have diabetes the harder it can be to process certain things. At least that's what I'm currently finding out.

    I hear you. For a beginning diabetic, I want a few rules ingrained (routine and balanced plate). If they start lopping off foods right at the beginning they've got the whole thing wrong. I overheard a nurse say that diabetics have to be their own lifetime coaches. Every meal and the timing of the meal is a choice. I became sensitized to my body's signals after a few months of diarizing and started associating things like sugary drinks and cakes to "feel like crap" later. I am sure you've discovered the stunning speed with which rice hits the system, for instance. BUT if I have my sugar punch in a shot glass chased with cheese and a cracker, chances are I'll be fine. Or if my rice is portioned to say, 1/4 cup with a mound of vegetables and a chicken breast, chances are it will metabolise decently.

    I'm in remission now. A sweet here or there does not affect me. Even so, after years of tracking, I prefer my veggies over my fruit. Veggies are a lot less trouble.
  • Jolinia
    Jolinia Posts: 846 Member
    Jolinia wrote: »

    Not even close to an equally impressive CV. And he works in the fitness field. How much of what he does is relevant to the average, non athlete American's health?

    Forget the CV, please. Read his references, since he went to the trouble of making them.

    If he doesn't have the education and experience in the area I'm interested in (liver health specifically in this case) why bother?
  • eric_sg61
    eric_sg61 Posts: 2,925 Member
    Jolinia wrote: »

    Not even close to an equally impressive CV. And he works in the fitness field. How much of what he does is relevant to the average, non athlete American's health?

    People who work in the fitness field also train hundreds of "regular" clients a year. Most people seek them out when their "named" diet fails miserably.
  • PeachyCarol
    PeachyCarol Posts: 8,029 Member
    edited February 2015
    Jolinia wrote: »
    Jolinia wrote: »

    Not even close to an equally impressive CV. And he works in the fitness field. How much of what he does is relevant to the average, non athlete American's health?

    Forget the CV, please. Read his references, since he went to the trouble of making them.

    If he doesn't have the education and experience in the area I'm interested in (liver health specifically in this case) why bother?

    Education? Did you look? He's got a Masters of Science in Nutrition. He's more than qualified. He's not just some random muscle-head.

  • Jolinia
    Jolinia Posts: 846 Member
    Jolinia wrote: »
    Jolinia wrote: »

    Not even close to an equally impressive CV. And he works in the fitness field. How much of what he does is relevant to the average, non athlete American's health?

    Forget the CV, please. Read his references, since he went to the trouble of making them.

    If he doesn't have the education and experience in the area I'm interested in (liver health specifically in this case) why bother?

    Education? Did you look? He's got a Masters of Science in Nutrition. He's more than qualified. He's not just some random muscle-head.

    That doesn't stack up against an MD and 20 some years medical experience with metabolic issues plus research. And Dr. Lustig isn't the only one lecturing on this issue, either. I'm finding more and more lectures from other professionals based on research findings in animals and humans.
  • Acg67
    Acg67 Posts: 12,142 Member
    Jolinia wrote: »
    Acg67 wrote: »
    Jolinia wrote: »
    Acg67 wrote: »
    Jolinia wrote: »
    eric_sg61 wrote: »
    According to Lustig, fructose is as toxic to the liver as alcohol. But, fructose from fruit is fine because fiber............so does this mean I can add Metamucil to my whiskey and cheat the system. Let's party

    Fruit also has antioxidants. Lustig states that the liver handles fructose better if the diet is high in antioxidants as well. Which it isn't going to be if someone is mostly living on cheese pizza and ice cream and soda.

    Source:



    LOLStig

    http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/988127/scientific-review-of-lolstigs-fat-chance

    If you don't like him, your CV in a relevant field better be equally as impressive as his, otherwise, who cares if you LOL?

    Now if you want to post sources who do have equally impressive CVs and who don't work for the food industry, I'll be glad to have a new lecture to listen to. But otherwise, no.

    Except his BS has already been exposed by mult people with just as impressive CVs as his, only ignorant idiots use him to support their claims

    Link to lecture to back your claim, please, with CV and disclosures of speaker. I will listen to it, and gladly, if you have it.

    Education

    Ph.D., Purdue University, 1995, Foods and Nutrition
    M.S., Indiana University, 1991, Nutrition Science
    B.S., Indiana University, 1990, Nutrition Science



    Research Areas

    I have several areas of professional interest. I am particularly interested in the effects of diet and exercise on nutritional status (i.e., blood lipids, bone health and energy metabolism) as well as the effects of diet on exercise metabolism and performance. Lately, we have been working on several functional foods that may have influences on some of these issues. In particular, we have studied less refined sweeteners (e.g., honey, agave nectar, etc.) and oils (minimally refined soybean and corn oils) as well as foods such as dried plums, mushrooms, eggs, miracle fruit, pistachios, chocolate, pullulan and raisins and have dedicated much research to address the influences of L-alanine on exercise metabolism. Below are a few representative grants, publications, and presentations related to my research.
    Selected Publications

    Sheila Medina-Torne, Maria Rosario G. Araneta, Caroline A. Macera, Mark Kern, Ming Ji. Dietary factors associated with adiponectin in Filipino-American women. Ethnicity & Disease. In Press.
    Tricia M. Nemoseck, Erin G. Carmody, Allison Furchner-Evanson, Marsa Gleason, Amy Li, Hayley Potter, Lauren M. Rezende, Kelly J. Lane, Mark Kern. Honey promotes lower weight gain, adiposity, and triglycerides than sucrose in rats. Nutrition Research. 2011. 31:55-60.
    Janine M. Wong and Mark Kern. Miracle fruit improves sweetness of a low-calorie dessert without promoting subsequent energy compensation. Appetite. 2011. 56:163-166.
    Leslie Howarth, Yumi Petrisko, Allison Furchner-Evanson, Tricia Nemoseck, Mark Kern. Snack selection influences nutrient intake, triglycerides and bowel habits of adult women. A pilot study. Journal of the American Dietetic Association. 2010. 110:1322-1327.
    Allison Furchner-Evanson, Yumi Petrisko, Leslie Howarth, Tricia Nemoseck, Mark Kern. Type of snack influences satiety responses in adult women. Appetite. 2010. 54:564-569.
    Nemoseck, T, Kern, M. Urinary calcium losses during high impact and resistance exercise training. Int J Sports Nutr Exerc Metab. 19(2):162-71, 2009.
    Klein, J, Nyhan, WL, Kern, M. The effects of alanine ingestion on metabolic responses to exercise in cyclists. Amino Acids. 37(4):673-80, 2009.
    Cheng, MH, Bushnell, D, Cannon, D, Kern, M. Regulation of appetite by exercise performed before or after meal consumption. Appetite. 52(1):193-8, 2009. Epub 2008 Sep 25.
    Hill, KM, Braun, M, Kern, M, Martin, BR, Navalta, JW, Sedlock, DA, McCabe, L, McCabe, GP, Peacock, M, Weaver, CM. Predictors of calcium retention in adolescent boys. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 93(12):4743-4748, 2008.
    Kern, M, Heslin, CJ, Rezende, RS. Metabolic and performance effects of raisins versus sports gel as pre-exercise feedings in cyclists. J Strength Cond Res. 21(4):1204-7, 2007.
    Kern, M., Broder, H.D., Edmondson, J.I., and Cannon, D.T. Diet composition does not alter energy expenditure, substrate metabolism or excess post-exercise oxygen consumption in healthy, non-exercise trained women. Nutr Res 27(11): 665-671, 2007.
    Burger, K.S., Kern, M., Coleman, K.J. (2007) Characteristics of self-selected portion size in young adults. J Am Dietetic Assoc. 107:611-8.
    Braun, M., B.R. Martin, B.R., Kern, M., McCabe, G.P., Peacock, M., Jiang, Z., Weaver, C.M. (2006) Calcium retention in adolescent boys on a range of controlled calcium intakes. Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 84:414-8.
    Ischayek J.I. and Kern, M. (2006) US honeys varying in glucose and fructose content elicit similar glycemic indexes. J Am Dietetic Assoc. 106:1260-62.
    Kern, M. Dietary intake of adolescent athletes and non-athletes. (2006) J Am Dietetic Assoc. 106:717-8.
    Pernick, Y, Nichols, JF, Rauh, MJ, Kern, M, Ji, M, Lawson, MJ, Wilfley, D. (2006) Disordered eating among a multi-racial/ethnic sample of female high school athletes. J Adol Health. 38:689-95.
    Kloss, R., Linscheid, J., Johnson, A., Lawson, B., Edwards, K., Linder, T., Stocker, K., Petitte, J., Kern, M. (2005) Effects of conjugated linoleic acid supplementation on blood lipids and adiposity of rats fed diets rich in saturated versus unsaturated fat. Pharmacological Research. 51:503-7.
    Benado, M, Alcantara, C, de la Rosa, R, Ambrose, M, Mosier, K, Kern, M. Effects of various levels of dietary fructose on blood lipids of rats. In Review.
    Kern, M., Ellison, D. Marroquin, Y., Ambrose, M., and Mosier, K. (2002) The effects of soy protein supplemented with methionine on blood lipids and adiposity of rats. Nutrition. 18:654-6.
    Kern, M., Beuttenmuller, D., Diehl, S., McCormick, C, Ambrose, M. (2002) The effects of protein repletion at varied levels on the growth and nutritional status of protein restricted rats. Nutrition Research. 22;957-63.
    Kern, M. (2001) An integrative research project for teaching research concepts and nutrition principles to college students. J Nutr Educ. 33:301-2.
    Kern, M. Podewils, L.J., Vukovich, M., and Buono, M.J. (2001) Physiological response to exercise in the heat following creatine supplementation. J Exerc. Physiol. 4:18-27.
    Weaver, C.M., Teegarden, D.T., Lyle, R.M., McCabe, G.P., McCabe, L.D., Proulx, W., Kern, M., Sedlock, D., Anderson, D.D., Hillberry, B.M., Peacock, M., and Johnston, C.C. (2001) Impact Of Exercise On Bone Health And Contraindication Of Oral Contraceptive Use In Young Women. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 33:873-880.
    Misell, L.M, Lagomarcino, N.D., Schuster, V., and Kern, M. Chronic medium-chain triacylglycerol consumption and endurance performance in trained runners. (2001) J. Sports Med. Phys. Fitness. 41:210-215.
    Kern, M., Harris, D.R., Broder, H., and Edmondson, J.I. (2000). Effects of an acute bout of exercise on high density lipoprotein cholesterol following consumption of a high or low fat diet. Sports Med. Training Rehab. 9:199-208.
    Kern, M., Lagomarcino, N.D., Misell, L.M., Schuster, V. (2000). The effect of medium-chain triacylglycerols on the blood lipid profile of male endurance runners. J. Nutr. Biochem. 11:288-292.
  • Acg67
    Acg67 Posts: 12,142 Member
    Jolinia wrote: »
    Jolinia wrote: »
    Jolinia wrote: »

    Not even close to an equally impressive CV. And he works in the fitness field. How much of what he does is relevant to the average, non athlete American's health?

    Forget the CV, please. Read his references, since he went to the trouble of making them.

    If he doesn't have the education and experience in the area I'm interested in (liver health specifically in this case) why bother?

    Education? Did you look? He's got a Masters of Science in Nutrition. He's more than qualified. He's not just some random muscle-head.

    That doesn't stack up against an MD and 20 some years medical experience with metabolic issues plus research. And Dr. Lustig isn't the only one lecturing on this issue, either. I'm finding more and more lectures from other professionals based on research findings in animals and humans.

    Except if he is a doctor and has 20 yrs experience, how does he get very basic things wrong?
  • PeachyCarol
    PeachyCarol Posts: 8,029 Member
    Jolinia wrote: »
    Jolinia wrote: »
    Jolinia wrote: »

    Not even close to an equally impressive CV. And he works in the fitness field. How much of what he does is relevant to the average, non athlete American's health?

    Forget the CV, please. Read his references, since he went to the trouble of making them.

    If he doesn't have the education and experience in the area I'm interested in (liver health specifically in this case) why bother?

    Education? Did you look? He's got a Masters of Science in Nutrition. He's more than qualified. He's not just some random muscle-head.

    That doesn't stack up against an MD and 20 some years medical experience with metabolic issues plus research. And Dr. Lustig isn't the only one lecturing on this issue, either. I'm finding more and more lectures from other professionals based on research findings in animals and humans.

    It is education enough to allow him to cull together research and form an argument on a subject regarding nutrition.

    He cited PLENTY of other papers in the blog post I linked. You can read all of them for links to people with impressive enough medical credentials.

  • Jolinia
    Jolinia Posts: 846 Member
    So I've started reading this:

    http://www.alanaragonblog.com/2010/01/29/the-bitter-truth-about-fructose-alarmism/


    He has criticisms, but on some of the issues I'm most concerned with, he has agreements, too. For example:

    "Another oversimplification Lustig makes is that fructose is “ethanol without the buzz,” and that fructose is toxic to the liver. This once again helps me illustrate my point that even in the case of alcoholic beverages, their risk or benefit to health is dose-dependent."

    Okay, so this implies fructose is harmful to the liver at some dosage. He is criticizing in part because Lustig doesn't state the dosage. Well, no one knows exactly, but if there is a safe dosage, this implies there is such a thing as too much and that too much will harm the liver.

    He complains: "I would add that fiber is only one of the numerous phytochemicals in fruit that impart health benefits. Thus, it’s not quite as simple as saying that fructose is evil, but once you take it with fiber, you’ve conquered the Dark Side."

    But this means he acknowledges the benefits of fiber and other health benefits of fruit, too. He'd likely be scornful of posters here who try to equate a strawberry with ice cream to 'show' that all sugar from all sources is the same.

    He says:

    "I have a great deal of respect for Lustig’s professional accomplishments, and I share his concern for the nation’s penchant for sitting around and overconsuming food and beverages of all sorts. However, I disagree (as does the bulk of the research) with his myopic, militant focus on fructose avoidance. He’s missing the forest while barking up a single tree."


    Well, in research and medicine, what is wrong with barking up a single tree, and then other researchers can broaden out. This is Lustig's career focus. Does that mean he's wrong, or just that others need to blaze other trails in nutrition to complete the picture? One person sure can't do it all.


    He concludes by saying:

    So, what’s the upper safe limit of fructose per day (all sources considered)? Again, this depends on a number of variables, not the least of which are an individual’s physical activity level and lean body mass. Currently in the literature is a liberal camp reporting that fructose intakes up to 90 grams per day have a beneficial effect on HbA(1c), and no significant effects are seen for fasting triacylglycerol or body weight with intakes up to 100 grams per day in adults [15]. The conservative camp suggests that the safe range is much less than this; roughly 25-40 grams per day [19]. Figuring that both sides are biased, the middle figure between the two camps is roughly 50 grams for adults (I’m talking about the general population, athletes with high energy demands can safely consume more).




    Well I'd like to stack this up against the WHO recommendation and I'll have to go looking for more reasons on why they're going with the much lower %5. So I'm off to learn more!
  • Jolinia
    Jolinia Posts: 846 Member
    edited February 2015
    One more thing, I posted this before because Dr. Hu's assertion alarms me a helluva lot more than Dr. Lustig's:

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2013/02/28/173170149/sugars-role-in-rise-of-diabetes-gets-clearer

    "Hu notes that he was also surprised to see that other foods did not predict diabetes risk nearly as strongly as sugar in Lustig's study. "I don't know why this happened, because we know other foods are associated with diabetes risk – like highly refined grain products, white rice, bread, and other starchy foods. Those foods are not very different from sugar. But maybe sugar is a better indicator of certain dietary habits of a population."


    Broadening out from just fructose as the problem only causes me more concern as far as diet since it just embraces even more foods.

    Lustig also knows perfectly well that his research isn't the entire picture.

    "Lustig himself is the first one to admit that proving that any one thing causes a disease, especially a chronic disease, is tricky business. And Lustig's co-author Sanjay Basu wrote on an epidemiology blog this week that "we can't 'prove causality' through any amount of statistics."
  • HeySwoleSister
    HeySwoleSister Posts: 1,938 Member
    Just interrupting this fascinating sugar battle to note that this thread forced me to go ALL THE WAY to my fridge to get a Fage 0% with honey for a bit of a lunch appetizer. I regret nothing. Mmmmmm. Delicious bee spit. Nom nom nom.
  • eric_sg61
    eric_sg61 Posts: 2,925 Member
    Jolinia wrote: »
    One more thing, I posted this before because Dr. Hu's assertion alarms me a helluva lot more than Dr. Lustig's:

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2013/02/28/173170149/sugars-role-in-rise-of-diabetes-gets-clearer

    "Hu notes that he was also surprised to see that other foods did not predict diabetes risk nearly as strongly as sugar in Lustig's study. "I don't know why this happened, because we know other foods are associated with diabetes risk – like highly refined grain products, white rice, bread, and other starchy foods. Those foods are not very different from sugar. But maybe sugar is a better indicator of certain dietary habits of a population."


    Broadening out from just fructose as the problem only causes me more concern as far as diet since it just embraces even more foods.

    Lustig also knows perfectly well that his research isn't the entire picture.

    "Lustig himself is the first one to admit that proving that any one thing causes a disease, especially a chronic disease, is tricky business. And Lustig's co-author Sanjay Basu wrote on an epidemiology blog this week that "we can't 'prove causality' through any amount of statistics."

    Thats funny alot of prominent low carb gurus are adding back "safe starches" to their diets and those include white rice and white potatoes...........hmmmm
  • Jolinia
    Jolinia Posts: 846 Member
    eric_sg61 wrote: »
    Jolinia wrote: »
    One more thing, I posted this before because Dr. Hu's assertion alarms me a helluva lot more than Dr. Lustig's:

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2013/02/28/173170149/sugars-role-in-rise-of-diabetes-gets-clearer

    "Hu notes that he was also surprised to see that other foods did not predict diabetes risk nearly as strongly as sugar in Lustig's study. "I don't know why this happened, because we know other foods are associated with diabetes risk – like highly refined grain products, white rice, bread, and other starchy foods. Those foods are not very different from sugar. But maybe sugar is a better indicator of certain dietary habits of a population."


    Broadening out from just fructose as the problem only causes me more concern as far as diet since it just embraces even more foods.

    Lustig also knows perfectly well that his research isn't the entire picture.

    "Lustig himself is the first one to admit that proving that any one thing causes a disease, especially a chronic disease, is tricky business. And Lustig's co-author Sanjay Basu wrote on an epidemiology blog this week that "we can't 'prove causality' through any amount of statistics."

    Thats funny alot of prominent low carb gurus are adding back "safe starches" to their diets and those include white rice and white potatoes...........hmmmm

    Okay. But do you have any abstracts or lectures on why they're doing this?

    Meanwhile, Dr. Lustig, at the end of the lecture I linked, does branch out from fructose and list a total of four concerns for liver health, one of which worries me since I'm on a low carb diet:

    Transfats
    Alcohol
    Fructose
    Branched-Chain Amino acids

    I'd be less alarmed if he just stuck with sugar!

    I'm eagerly looking forward to more information on branched-chain amino acids because I want to know how much is too much for my age, height, weight, gender, muscle mass, and activity level.

    And if you have anything on potatoes of any variety helping my liver out, links, please.