For the Data Junky, nerd folks
Replies
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Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »@Sunny_Bunny_
Thanks for the link.... Lots of (LC) food for thought!
This concept doesn't seem to click for me in regard to folks who aren't diabetic, though, since they don't have insulin resistance - and therefore wouldnt have elevated insulin levels - in the first place.
If my BG levels bobbed steadily in 80-95 waters (by some miracle!), I'd think my ketone level would be the only relevant variable.
??
It applies regardless of someone's level of insulin resistance though. It's only purpose really is to determine the therapeutic level of ketones and get an idea of how low ones insulin production may be. Insulin resistance or not, the goal is low insulin.
I'm not getting how you can extrapolate insulin production from your BG level alone, which is largely the result of a dance between glucagon and insulin, if your BG stays in the typical, narrow, nondiabetic range. (Also, the small variations between 80 & 95 are within the margin of error for measuring BG anyhow.)
For example, the HOMA and HOMA-2 models for estimating insulin resistance and beta-cell function require independent insulin measurement.0 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »@Sunny_Bunny_
Thanks for the link.... Lots of (LC) food for thought!
This concept doesn't seem to click for me in regard to folks who aren't diabetic, though, since they don't have insulin resistance - and therefore wouldnt have elevated insulin levels - in the first place.
If my BG levels bobbed steadily in 80-95 waters (by some miracle!), I'd think my ketone level would be the only relevant variable.
??
It applies regardless of someone's level of insulin resistance though. It's only purpose really is to determine the therapeutic level of ketones and get an idea of how low ones insulin production may be. Insulin resistance or not, the goal is low insulin.
I'm not getting how you can extrapolate insulin production from your BG level alone, which is largely the result of a dance between glucagon and insulin, if your BG stays in the typical, narrow, nondiabetic range. (Also, the small variations between 80 & 95 are within the margin of error for measuring BG anyhow.)
For example, the HOMA and HOMA-2 models for estimating insulin resistance and beta-cell function require independent insulin measurement.
It's not from BG alone. It's the combination of it and blood ketones. You can't have high ketones AND high insulin. But you can have high insulin with normal or low BG.
So, if you test high on ketones... your insulin can't be high. At least not at that point in time.1 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »@Sunny_Bunny_
Thanks for the link.... Lots of (LC) food for thought!
This concept doesn't seem to click for me in regard to folks who aren't diabetic, though, since they don't have insulin resistance - and therefore wouldnt have elevated insulin levels - in the first place.
If my BG levels bobbed steadily in 80-95 waters (by some miracle!), I'd think my ketone level would be the only relevant variable.
??
It applies regardless of someone's level of insulin resistance though. It's only purpose really is to determine the therapeutic level of ketones and get an idea of how low ones insulin production may be. Insulin resistance or not, the goal is low insulin.
I'm not getting how you can extrapolate insulin production from your BG level alone, which is largely the result of a dance between glucagon and insulin, if your BG stays in the typical, narrow, nondiabetic range. (Also, the small variations between 80 & 95 are within the margin of error for measuring BG anyhow.)
For example, the HOMA and HOMA-2 models for estimating insulin resistance and beta-cell function require independent insulin measurement.
It's not from BG alone. It's the combination of it and blood ketones. You can't have high ketones AND high insulin. But you can have high insulin with normal or low BG.
So, if you test high on ketones... your insulin can't be high. At least not at that point in time.
I agree with @Sunny_Bunny the GKI is as good as it gets ATM as a proxy for insulin levels. A warning of caution, though: We still don't know exactly what and to which degree ketones get higher for the INDIVIDUAL. We only know that eating a very lowcarb, exercise and fasting elevates ketones to different degrees. According to some lectures I've watched, some people have difficulty raising their ketone levels above 0.5 mmol, while others have no problem getting into 1-3 range. Some people report anecdotally (2ketodudes) that the only variables that significantly raise BHB are exercise or fasting.
So I would only use the GKI as an indication of insulin levels. There's enough keto anxiety floating around already. Another point is that any exogenous ketones such as MCT or the ketone esters and salts will artificially raise ketones, but will obscure any attempts at trying to correlate GKI with insulin.
I still think that eating a diet according to Kendall's insulin index is probably the easiest way for many people. Exercise and fasting are add-ons.
The ONE thing that would benefit all of the things we want to improve is quality of sleep...and down the rabbit hole we go...
Edit: If you want to tryout the GKI protocol, at least establish a baseline of "normal" ketone blood levels with your current WOE and living for a minimum of 3 weeks. THEN, you can start experimenting and testing the effects of different foods, volume, frequency, exercise and fasting... or you won't know the way your compass is heading .0 -
@Sunny_Bunny_ thank you for the link! Going to order one asap! Ive been looking into ordering a new meter!0
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@Sunny_Bunny_
Quick question. The GKI is the amount of insulin floating around right? The lower the better right?
I divided my BG of 4.7 with ketones 0.7 = 6.7
Is this high? What are the ranges?0 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »@Sunny_Bunny_
Thanks for the link.... Lots of (LC) food for thought!
This concept doesn't seem to click for me in regard to folks who aren't diabetic, though, since they don't have insulin resistance - and therefore wouldnt have elevated insulin levels - in the first place.
If my BG levels bobbed steadily in 80-95 waters (by some miracle!), I'd think my ketone level would be the only relevant variable.
??
It applies regardless of someone's level of insulin resistance though. It's only purpose really is to determine the therapeutic level of ketones and get an idea of how low ones insulin production may be. Insulin resistance or not, the goal is low insulin.
I'm not getting how you can extrapolate insulin production from your BG level alone, which is largely the result of a dance between glucagon and insulin, if your BG stays in the typical, narrow, nondiabetic range. (Also, the small variations between 80 & 95 are within the margin of error for measuring BG anyhow.)
For example, the HOMA and HOMA-2 models for estimating insulin resistance and beta-cell function require independent insulin measurement.
It's not from BG alone. It's the combination of it and blood ketones. You can't have high ketones AND high insulin. But you can have high insulin with normal or low BG.
So, if you test high on ketones... your insulin can't be high. At least not at that point in time.
So true. I tend to have slightly high morning BG readings so my ketostix are often very low or negative.
Neat thread.
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@Sunny_Bunny_
Quick question. The GKI is the amount of insulin floating around right? The lower the better right?
I divided my BG of 4.7 with ketones 0.7 = 6.7
Is this high? What are the ranges?
6.7 is great. He says in the article anything under 10 is great for someone wanting to be in ketosis for overall health benefits. The only reason a person needs to ever aim lower is if they need therapeutic levels for epilepsy or cancer treatment, for example.
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Foamroller wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »@Sunny_Bunny_
Thanks for the link.... Lots of (LC) food for thought!
This concept doesn't seem to click for me in regard to folks who aren't diabetic, though, since they don't have insulin resistance - and therefore wouldnt have elevated insulin levels - in the first place.
If my BG levels bobbed steadily in 80-95 waters (by some miracle!), I'd think my ketone level would be the only relevant variable.
??
It applies regardless of someone's level of insulin resistance though. It's only purpose really is to determine the therapeutic level of ketones and get an idea of how low ones insulin production may be. Insulin resistance or not, the goal is low insulin.
I'm not getting how you can extrapolate insulin production from your BG level alone, which is largely the result of a dance between glucagon and insulin, if your BG stays in the typical, narrow, nondiabetic range. (Also, the small variations between 80 & 95 are within the margin of error for measuring BG anyhow.)
For example, the HOMA and HOMA-2 models for estimating insulin resistance and beta-cell function require independent insulin measurement.
It's not from BG alone. It's the combination of it and blood ketones. You can't have high ketones AND high insulin. But you can have high insulin with normal or low BG.
So, if you test high on ketones... your insulin can't be high. At least not at that point in time.
I agree with @Sunny_Bunny the GKI is as good as it gets ATM as a proxy for insulin levels. A warning of caution, though: We still don't know exactly what and to which degree ketones get higher for the INDIVIDUAL. We only know that eating a very lowcarb, exercise and fasting elevates ketones to different degrees. According to some lectures I've watched, some people have difficulty raising their ketone levels above 0.5 mmol, while others have no problem getting into 1-3 range. Some people report anecdotally (2ketodudes) that the only variables that significantly raise BHB are exercise or fasting.
So I would only use the GKI as an indication of insulin levels. There's enough keto anxiety floating around already. Another point is that any exogenous ketones such as MCT or the ketone esters and salts will artificially raise ketones, but will obscure any attempts at trying to correlate GKI with insulin.
I still think that eating a diet according to Kendall's insulin index is probably the easiest way for many people. Exercise and fasting are add-ons.
The ONE thing that would benefit all of the things we want to improve is quality of sleep...and down the rabbit hole we go...
Edit: If you want to tryout the GKI protocol, at least establish a baseline of "normal" ketone blood levels with your current WOE and living for a minimum of 3 weeks. THEN, you can start experimenting and testing the effects of different foods, volume, frequency, exercise and fasting... or you won't know the way your compass is heading .
Really good points.
I definitely don't anyone to stress over ketones. It is a common thing to thing to think the more the better when that's really only true if you're in ketosis for therapeutic treatment of cancer or epilepsy for example.
I do know some people have more trouble with achieving higher numbers than others and I suspect it to be at least partially associated with insulin resistance and overproduction on insulin that stubbornly won't quit. Who knows what other factors may play a role. But I do still think knowing how to watch it using the best available tools we have, like this, can help to at least identify what works best on an individual basis.1 -
Interesting and thanks for doing this experiment and posting.
Last check up, the doc said my ketones were fairly high. I was worried about A1C and asked and he muttered that he did not think I had a problem as he got the report out. A1C is good. Duh! I never put the two together.0
