how much carbs is too much carbs? - dietary help
Replies
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nokanjaijo wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »nokanjaijo wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »nokanjaijo wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »nokanjaijo wrote: »nokanjaijo wrote: »Protein became relevant when you stated that glucose was the only thing that triggers an insulin response, which is clearly incorrect.
NO. That is not what I wrote. This is what I wrote:
Your body uses three types of molecules for fuel: glucose, alcohol, and ketones. Right? Your body uses them in that order.
The glucose in your blood is used for immediate energy and it is stored in your muscle as glycogen. So, if your glycogen stores are full any glucose in your blood not used immediately as energy is in excess. I think that's what this person meant by "glycogen overflow".
Glucose also happens to be the only of the three molecules to trigger an insulin response by which I mean it causes your pancreas to release the enzyme insulin
Yes, your 2nd bolded part is not accurate. Protein also triggers an insulin response. That is what anvil is saying.
Except that protein isn't one of the three molecules.
Are you all just trolling me? This can't be for real.
You're talking in circles. If you're narrowly defining your three molecules and then citing that one of them causes glucose overload leading to insulin spikes and fat storage, it's only right that someone else can point out another molecule that you didn't mention another molecule that also causes insulin spikes.
You're leaving out important information.
No one is trolling you, you're just not painting a complete picture.
I'm not actually trying to paint a picture, though.
I'm not defending this person's claim. I've already said I don't think the claim is accurate.
Let me remind you what my point is here. I'm explaining why calling the things he said, "not accurate in any way" isn't reasonable and is negative.
It's not accurate in any way.
The person is eating in a calorie deficit.
Net fat storage in a calorie deficit doesn't happen.
The teachings of low carb gurus about "fat storing mode" triggered by insulin response are alarmist nonsense. Fat storage/usage is a normal part of the energy cycle we all go through daily and the net result of it depends entirely on energy balance, not substrate balance like they'd like you to think.
Unless you think carbs don't trigger insulin or that insulin doesn't trigger fat storage, it's accurate in some ways.
Pedantry doesn't help posters who are new to the boards who are here and care about losing weight. They care about the net result, and the net result is that they aren't storing fat in an energy deficit, thus, saying that they are in "fat storage mode" due to carbohydrate intake is alarmist nonsense because it won't be permanent fat storage. That stored fat will be called into usage again as part of the normal energy cycle.
It's not pedantry. It's my whole point. It is quite literally the only argument I'm making.
And how is this helping the OP?
Correcting the false information was helping the OP.
She isn't in "fat storage mode" in the way that she'd think from that post. It needed to be addressed.8 -
nokanjaijo wrote: »3) Yes, glucose does trigger an insulin response. But it is not the only molecule that triggers an insulin response. As I have repeated several times now, protein triggers an insulin response equal to carbohydrate. Deliberately leaving protein out of the discussion is cherry-picking to make an irrelevant point. It makes as much sense as saying "between chickens, apples and elephants, chickens are the only thing in the world that has wings."
My only point is that this person was being treated unkindly. If you think that's irrelevant, don't respond to me because I don't have another point.
Otherwise, I'm saying that there are actual physiological truths behind what this person is saying and it's not nice to treat them like they are just spouting complete nonsense. This is a human being.
As I've repeated, I don't think this person was accurate. I just think it's unreasonable to say they are not accurate in any way.
Ah, so you feel I was unkind. Would it be kind to have this kind of inaccuracy not addressed and have someone act on it as truth? You have 463 posts. I have almost 5000, anvil almost 12000 and GottaBurn over 4000. How much myth and inaccuracy do you we think we have seen passed off as true over that amount of participation. It happens every day. If you look back a few post, you will see my encouragement of the poster I originally challenged.
Also, I think it perfectly reasonable to challenge bad data. Maybe I could do that in a less abrasive way and I will take that into consideration. Thank you.
first off, i still believe every word i posted. the only thing i regret is not having a source for you all to read. my deliverance could have been better but at no point did i admit i was "wrong".
I STILL lost weight and had more level consistent energy eating low carb high fat. no other diet has done that for me. I have lost weight the others ways, but i felt awful. i feel great and i don't need 100+ grams of carbs a day to function. Maybe you do.
All I did was adjust my macros (CALORIES WERE EXACTLY THE SAME) and I lost ten pounds in a month (up to 5 was water weight).
There you go, no STATS here, just my personal experience.6 -
nokanjaijo wrote: »3) Yes, glucose does trigger an insulin response. But it is not the only molecule that triggers an insulin response. As I have repeated several times now, protein triggers an insulin response equal to carbohydrate. Deliberately leaving protein out of the discussion is cherry-picking to make an irrelevant point. It makes as much sense as saying "between chickens, apples and elephants, chickens are the only thing in the world that has wings."
My only point is that this person was being treated unkindly. If you think that's irrelevant, don't respond to me because I don't have another point.
Otherwise, I'm saying that there are actual physiological truths behind what this person is saying and it's not nice to treat them like they are just spouting complete nonsense. This is a human being.
As I've repeated, I don't think this person was accurate. I just think it's unreasonable to say they are not accurate in any way.
Ah, so you feel I was unkind. Would it be kind to have this kind of inaccuracy not addressed and have someone act on it as truth? You have 463 posts. I have almost 5000, anvil almost 12000 and GottaBurn over 4000. How much myth and inaccuracy do you we think we have seen passed off as true over that amount of participation. It happens every day. If you look back a few post, you will see my encouragement of the poster I originally challenged.
Also, I think it perfectly reasonable to challenge bad data. Maybe I could do that in a less abrasive way and I will take that into consideration. Thank you.
Oh my god, thank you so much for that. That really is all I wanted to say. I really appreciate you hearing me. I worry that I sound sarcastic right now but I'm not trying to be. I genuinely appreciate this a great deal.
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In addition, some people are more insulin resistant than others. That's why some people can get away with eating higher amounts of carbs than others. This is why some people need to be under 20g net carbs to while others can be at 50g and still be in ketosis.
You'll only know which type of person you are if you try the Dr. Oz Cracker Test
*100% of this post is a joke*14 -
In addition, some people are more insulin resistant than others. That's why some people can get away with eating higher amounts of carbs than others. This is why some people need to be under 20g net carbs to while others can be at 50g and still be in ketosis.
You'll only know which type of person you are if you try the Dr. Oz Cracker Test
*100% of this post is a joke*
LOL1 -
Looking at your log. That looks like way too many carbs as there is little room for vegetables and healthy protiens. The human body requires many different protiens, vitamins and minerals to simply function. Everyone needs fats, carbs, salts, but also the vitamins, mineralsand protiens found in greens and fresh fruits and meats. A lot of high carb foods, such as white bread, has very little of the other nutrients you need to function best. There is a reason for the term "balanced" diet.
If you will find yourself struggling:
The best thing you can do is see an MD that is also a registered dietician. If not then find a registered dietician, not a nutritionist. An RD requires a bachelor's at minimum, not so with a nutritionist (you can literally have a GED and do an online program with very little regulation and become a "certified nutritionist"). Log everything you eat and do, then get thier help.4 -
Well, that was a fun read!
Anywhooo-Op, my own experience: when I started this whole thing I didn't even know what a macro was. I was facing a new medical diagnosis of prediabetes, had never tried losing weight before, had been given no direction by my (former) doctor, and I jumped in blind. I proceeded to lose 50lbs and improve all my health markers, including normalizing my glucose number, all without tracking a single macro. I only focused on reducing my calorie intake, and hitting the correct calorie deficit for my weight loss goals.
I'm now several years into maintaining the loss, and I still don't pay any attention to my macros/don't track them. Because of my medical history I get blood work done twice a year and they consistently come back good with no issues or concerns. I take no medications and have a current bmi of 19.9.
There's a lot of emphasis on finding the 'correct' macros ratios but I don't bother with them and it hasn't negatively impacted my goals at all. I control my weight by my calorie intake and eat a balanced diet that includes all the foods I enjoy. That's worked brilliantly for me 4 -
Hi, I'm Jimmy and I'm a carboholic. *waits for greetings* Ok, so I'm not the most fit but I have done a ridiculous amount of research and thought I'd share. It's very simple. If all you're going for is weight loss, you just need to expend more calories than you intake regularly.
Now, here's where it gets tricky. Depending upon your physiology and genetics, what you eat will make that easier to accomplish.
I can eat a 12 oz steak and 6 oz of shrimp and if someone asks if I'm hungry, the answer is HELL NO! I could not eat another bite of a protein or fat. But they put tres leches cake in front of me and I'll get it down. The problem is that carbs don't stick around. They're like sprinters. You take it in, it looks around to see if it's needed (for muscles that have lost glycogen from working out, or calories if needed) and when they don't find anything, they go hang out with their adipose friends until called. Adipose is fat on us. Not fatS, but fat.
Protein and fats are more satisfying and curb most people's cravings where carbs actually spike insulin which not only makes you more hungry but your body learns when you'll take in large doses of carbs and will PREEMPTIVELY release insulin to combat that sugar next day at the same time. That's why if you have a dozen donuts for breakfast, the next day you wake up famished. A dozen eggs. Not the same result.
In long synopsis: Calories in < calories out = weight loss. How you feel during that weight loss is based on what food choices and metrics you choose.14 -
In regards to what macros are satiating, that is entirely individual, so blanket statments about what's filling and what's not don't hold universally true.
In an attempt to rid myself of the last 5 vanity pounds, I started low carbing.
That was a BIG mistake.
It left me hungry, full of cravings, and led to a cycle of binge/restrict that I stayed in for far too long until I figured out that my macros were the problem.
I ended up ultimately gaining weight.
For me personally, I need starchy carbs like whole grains and tubers and beans in my diet in order to feel satiated. Fat and protein alone don't do a thing for me.
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nokanjaijo wrote: »nokanjaijo wrote: »3) Yes, glucose does trigger an insulin response. But it is not the only molecule that triggers an insulin response. As I have repeated several times now, protein triggers an insulin response equal to carbohydrate. Deliberately leaving protein out of the discussion is cherry-picking to make an irrelevant point. It makes as much sense as saying "between chickens, apples and elephants, chickens are the only thing in the world that has wings."
My only point is that this person was being treated unkindly. If you think that's irrelevant, don't respond to me because I don't have another point.
Otherwise, I'm saying that there are actual physiological truths behind what this person is saying and it's not nice to treat them like they are just spouting complete nonsense. This is a human being.
As I've repeated, I don't think this person was accurate. I just think it's unreasonable to say they are not accurate in any way.
Ah, so you feel I was unkind. Would it be kind to have this kind of inaccuracy not addressed and have someone act on it as truth? You have 463 posts. I have almost 5000, anvil almost 12000 and GottaBurn over 4000. How much myth and inaccuracy do you we think we have seen passed off as true over that amount of participation. It happens every day. If you look back a few post, you will see my encouragement of the poster I originally challenged.
Also, I think it perfectly reasonable to challenge bad data. Maybe I could do that in a less abrasive way and I will take that into consideration. Thank you.
Oh my god, thank you so much for that. That really is all I wanted to say. I really appreciate you hearing me. I worry that I sound sarcastic right now but I'm not trying to be. I genuinely appreciate this a great deal.
You don't sound sarcastic at all. You are quite welcome. I am direct and blunt in my communication style. I realize that can come across as abrasive. I am trying to be better at being less abrasive. It is a work in progress... 3 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »In regards to what macros are satiating, that is entirely individual, so blanket statments about what's filling and what's not don't hold universally true.
In an attempt to rid myself of the last 5 vanity pounds, I started low carbing.
That was a BIG mistake.
It left me hungry, full of cravings, and led to a cycle of binge/restrict that I stayed in for far too long until I figured out that my macros were the problem.
I ended up ultimately gaining weight.
For me personally, I need starchy carbs like whole grains and tubers and beans in my diet in order to feel satiated. Fat and protein alone don't do a thing for me.
this is how i felt the first couple of times i tried to eat low carb. that problem was fixed for me when I added more fat into my diet. everybody's body is different tho, carbs are the devil for some (like me) while they play nice with others (like you)
consider yourself lucky that carbs are kind to your waistline and if you ever do low carb again, try high fat and see how it works for you and if it makes you feel better 3 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »In regards to what macros are satiating, that is entirely individual, so blanket statments about what's filling and what's not don't hold universally true.
In an attempt to rid myself of the last 5 vanity pounds, I started low carbing.
That was a BIG mistake.
It left me hungry, full of cravings, and led to a cycle of binge/restrict that I stayed in for far too long until I figured out that my macros were the problem.
I ended up ultimately gaining weight.
For me personally, I need starchy carbs like whole grains and tubers and beans in my diet in order to feel satiated. Fat and protein alone don't do a thing for me.
Strangely enough, when Dr. Susanna Holt compiled The Satiety Index as a result of her research, a number of carb-heavy foods were widely found to be significantly more satiating than proteins overall:
http://calorielab.com/news/2008/04/25/the-satiety-index-comparing-apples-and-oranges/
Satiety definitely does vary between people.10 -
Great job in taking control of your health!! The key thing you said is that you eat a balanced diet. So, you are balancing your macros adequately. For most that is sufficient. It is when you have more specific sports or fitness related goals that macros become more important. Particularly protein. In the case of the OP, what she posted was not balanced and was carb heavy at the expense of protein and fats.OliveGirl128 wrote: »Well, that was a fun read!
Anywhooo-Op, my own experience: when I started this whole thing I didn't even know what a macro was. I was facing a new medical diagnosis of prediabetes, had never tried losing weight before, had been given no direction by my (former) doctor, and I jumped in blind. I proceeded to lose 50lbs and improve all my health markers, including normalizing my glucose number, all without tracking a single macro. I only focused on reducing my calorie intake, and hitting the correct calorie deficit for my weight loss goals.
I'm now several years into maintaining the loss, and I still don't pay any attention to my macros/don't track them. Because of my medical history I get blood work done twice a year and they consistently come back good with no issues or concerns. I take no medications and have a current bmi of 19.9.
There's a lot of emphasis on finding the 'correct' macros ratios but I don't bother with them and it hasn't negatively impacted my goals at all. I control my weight by my calorie intake and eat a balanced diet that includes all the foods I enjoy. That's worked brilliantly for me
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »In regards to what macros are satiating, that is entirely individual, so blanket statments about what's filling and what's not don't hold universally true.
In an attempt to rid myself of the last 5 vanity pounds, I started low carbing.
That was a BIG mistake.
It left me hungry, full of cravings, and led to a cycle of binge/restrict that I stayed in for far too long until I figured out that my macros were the problem.
I ended up ultimately gaining weight.
For me personally, I need starchy carbs like whole grains and tubers and beans in my diet in order to feel satiated. Fat and protein alone don't do a thing for me.
this is how i felt the first couple of times i tried to eat low carb. that problem was fixed for me when I added more fat into my diet. everybody's body is different tho, carbs are the devil for some (like me) while they play nice with others (like you)
consider yourself lucky that carbs are kind to your waistline and if you ever do low carb again, try high fat and see how it works for you and if it makes you feel better
I have familial hypercholesterolemia. A higher fat intake is contraindicated for that.
Editing to add:
Before this go-round with weight loss, I low carbed for ten years, and that was before I had a cholesterol problem.
I had a high fat intake then, but low carbing never did do the trick of naturally satiating me the way it was supposed to. I did lose weight, but only to a point. The lowest I ever got was 150, and that was still overweight (I'm 5'1").
Fat is not satiating for everyone, it's apparently not for me. I need a certain amount to feel satisfied (anything less than 40 grams leaves me a bit crave-y), but more than that is just wasting calories better spent on carbs if they're not being spent on protein.8 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »In regards to what macros are satiating, that is entirely individual, so blanket statments about what's filling and what's not don't hold universally true.
In an attempt to rid myself of the last 5 vanity pounds, I started low carbing.
That was a BIG mistake.
It left me hungry, full of cravings, and led to a cycle of binge/restrict that I stayed in for far too long until I figured out that my macros were the problem.
I ended up ultimately gaining weight.
For me personally, I need starchy carbs like whole grains and tubers and beans in my diet in order to feel satiated. Fat and protein alone don't do a thing for me.
Particularly with women, satiety may even vary greatly week to week for an individual. I'm typically able to anticipate when I'm going to have a carb-heavy week due to cravings & when I can cut back with relative ease.3 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »In regards to what macros are satiating, that is entirely individual, so blanket statments about what's filling and what's not don't hold universally true.
In an attempt to rid myself of the last 5 vanity pounds, I started low carbing.
That was a BIG mistake.
It left me hungry, full of cravings, and led to a cycle of binge/restrict that I stayed in for far too long until I figured out that my macros were the problem.
I ended up ultimately gaining weight.
For me personally, I need starchy carbs like whole grains and tubers and beans in my diet in order to feel satiated. Fat and protein alone don't do a thing for me.
this is how i felt the first couple of times i tried to eat low carb. that problem was fixed for me when I added more fat into my diet. everybody's body is different tho, carbs are the devil for some (like me) while they play nice with others (like you)
consider yourself lucky that carbs are kind to your waistline and if you ever do low carb again, try high fat and see how it works for you and if it makes you feel better
I have familial hypercholesterolemia. A higher fat intake is contraindicated for that.
Well sounds like you figured out what works for you. keep on keepin on.2 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »In regards to what macros are satiating, that is entirely individual, so blanket statments about what's filling and what's not don't hold universally true.
In an attempt to rid myself of the last 5 vanity pounds, I started low carbing.
That was a BIG mistake.
It left me hungry, full of cravings, and led to a cycle of binge/restrict that I stayed in for far too long until I figured out that my macros were the problem.
I ended up ultimately gaining weight.
For me personally, I need starchy carbs like whole grains and tubers and beans in my diet in order to feel satiated. Fat and protein alone don't do a thing for me.
Particularly with women, satiety may even vary greatly week to week for an individual. I'm typically able to anticipate when I'm going to have a carb-heavy week due to cravings & when I can cut back with relative ease.
I might be past the age when week to week fluctuations happen. Just sayin' 7 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »In regards to what macros are satiating, that is entirely individual, so blanket statments about what's filling and what's not don't hold universally true.
In an attempt to rid myself of the last 5 vanity pounds, I started low carbing.
That was a BIG mistake.
It left me hungry, full of cravings, and led to a cycle of binge/restrict that I stayed in for far too long until I figured out that my macros were the problem.
I ended up ultimately gaining weight.
For me personally, I need starchy carbs like whole grains and tubers and beans in my diet in order to feel satiated. Fat and protein alone don't do a thing for me.
this is how i felt the first couple of times i tried to eat low carb. that problem was fixed for me when I added more fat into my diet. everybody's body is different tho, carbs are the devil for some (like me) while they play nice with others (like you)
consider yourself lucky that carbs are kind to your waistline and if you ever do low carb again, try high fat and see how it works for you and if it makes you feel better
I have familial hypercholesterolemia. A higher fat intake is contraindicated for that.
Editing to add:
Before this go-round with weight loss, I low carbed for ten years, and that was before I had a cholesterol problem.
I had a high fat intake then, but low carbing never did do the trick of naturally satiating me the way it was supposed to. I did lose weight, but only to a point. The lowest I ever got was 150, and that was still overweight (I'm 5'1").
Fat is not satiating for everyone, it's apparently not for me. I need a certain amount to feel satisfied (anything less than 40 grams leaves me a bit crave-y), but more than that is just wasting calories better spent on carbs if they're not being spent on protein.
I can eat a half a jar of peanut butter with a spoon, and only stop because I finally realize how much I hoovered down. I can eat an entire block of cheese mindlessly. Just doesn't fill me up. But give me 350 cals of rice and beans in tomato sauce and I'm good for the afternoon. Or potatoes - roasted or baked they always fill me up!3 -
nokanjaijo wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »nokanjaijo wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »nokanjaijo wrote: »nokanjaijo wrote: »Protein became relevant when you stated that glucose was the only thing that triggers an insulin response, which is clearly incorrect.
NO. That is not what I wrote. This is what I wrote:
Your body uses three types of molecules for fuel: glucose, alcohol, and ketones. Right? Your body uses them in that order.
The glucose in your blood is used for immediate energy and it is stored in your muscle as glycogen. So, if your glycogen stores are full any glucose in your blood not used immediately as energy is in excess. I think that's what this person meant by "glycogen overflow".
Glucose also happens to be the only of the three molecules to trigger an insulin response by which I mean it causes your pancreas to release the enzyme insulin
Yes, your 2nd bolded part is not accurate. Protein also triggers an insulin response. That is what anvil is saying.
Except that protein isn't one of the three molecules.
Are you all just trolling me? This can't be for real.
You're talking in circles. If you're narrowly defining your three molecules and then citing that one of them causes glucose overload leading to insulin spikes and fat storage, it's only right that someone else can point out another molecule that you didn't mention another molecule that also causes insulin spikes.
You're leaving out important information.
No one is trolling you, you're just not painting a complete picture.
I'm not actually trying to paint a picture, though.
I'm not defending this person's claim. I've already said I don't think the claim is accurate.
Let me remind you what my point is here. I'm explaining why calling the things he said, "not accurate in any way" isn't reasonable and is negative.
It's not accurate in any way.
The person is eating in a calorie deficit.
Net fat storage in a calorie deficit doesn't happen.
The teachings of low carb gurus about "fat storing mode" triggered by insulin response are alarmist nonsense. Fat storage/usage is a normal part of the energy cycle we all go through daily and the net result of it depends entirely on energy balance, not substrate balance like they'd like you to think.
Unless you think carbs don't trigger insulin or that insulin doesn't trigger fat storage, it's accurate in some ways.
No, it's incredibly misleading, and therefore not accurate even if bits of it would be if taken out of context.
Here are the claims again:Unless you are an athlete or fitness enthusiast, your carbs are very high.
Reality: we don't know this. The logging was missing macros and it's one day that the OP said was "a bad day."
Also, many people do fine with a huge range of carbs, including as high as 80%. While that wouldn't be my recommendation, especially on a deficit, OP's protein (which would be my main concern) is above the RDA.Calories in and out is important, but it's not everything. When your body consumes an excess amount of carbs, your glycogen tank is overflowing and triggering a spike in insulin. When you secrete too much insulin, your body goes into fat storing mode.
Reality: we have reason to believe that OP is and will be in a deficit. Yet the poster suggests that she will be "in fat storing mode" which would only be relevant if the poster were trying to claim -- inaccurately -- that the OP would be gaining fat even in a deficit. That is simply not true, there would be no net gain of fat.
Beyond this, "excess amount of carbs" is meaningless -- excess of what, given OP is getting the RDA of protein, adequate fat, and is in a calorie deficit?
And why would the "glycogen tank" be "overflowing" if OP is at a deficit. Not likely.
Also, let's assume, arguendo, that there is storage and then burning of fat. Quite unlikely in this context, since it's not efficient, but what harm would that be? There would likely be some excess calories used for the metabolic process of adding and then burning fat (which is why it's inefficient).My advice, increase your fat and protein intake and lower your carbs.
Not everyone needs to do this. It's one-size fits all advice.
OP might find lower carbs and higher protein and fat is beneficial (I'd generally want to know how she feels, why she eats what she eats, what her actual diet is -- the one day doesn't tell us much -- before giving any opinions). But to assert with only what we know that she should lower carbs is not supported by anything but the suggestion that she will gain fat in a deficit if she does not.
And that is what is inaccurate and misleading.
This is the kind of misleading claim that needs to be corrected.
It's behind claims that one MUST be low carb to lose, which is just not true at all. I think cutting carbs can be a good idea (so can cutting fat), and I tend to prefer lower carb personally, but suggesting that you magically gain fat on a deficit if you eat too many carbs is wrong. And that's clearly what the poster was communicating.11 -
BabyBear76 wrote: »Looking at your log. That looks like way too many carbs as there is little room for vegetables and healthy protiens.
OP said it's a non typical day, because of the lack of vegetables.
I'd agree vegetables are important.
Vegetables ARE largely carbs.
We have one poster pushing under 20 g of carbs, and another saying that you need to cut carbs to fit in vegetables. Puzzling. This morning I had 44 g of carbs -- 1 g from shrimp, 8 from some black soy beans (they had protein too, but clearly are evil), and the rest -- 35 g -- from vegetables.
Another 20 g from vegetables at lunch.
That's 55 g from vegetables, before dinner.
Another 19 g from some quinoa and the beans, plus a little from miscellaneous stuff.
And that's despite failing to bring lunch and being forced to buy it!4
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