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Why do people deny CICO ?
Replies
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nettiklive wrote: »I don't think anyone is arguing against the physical principle of CICO. For the purpose of discussion here, I see it as a synonym for calorie counting, or not necessarily counting but basically consciously limiting caloric intake to lose weight. I think any debate on the topic should focus around that and not go around and around in circles restating that CICO is not a weight loss method but a scientific formula. It's pointless, like restating that gravity is a scientific concept is not that helpful in a discussion of how to get a paper plane to fly better.
This very thread started with the OP clearly referring to CICO as a weight loss method, and asking why people 'don't believe in it':So many people just don't grasp the concept of calories in calories out. They tell me that not all calories are equal and that you have to eat healthy to lose weight. I used to argue with these people but lately I just smile and nod. It's worked for me.. I eat basically anything I want and have lost 5 kg. I feel so many more people would be successful at weight loss if they just grasped this simple scientific concept. I'm hoping to reach my ultimate weight and then write a blog list about how I did it and prove all the CICO deniers wrong
People are disagreeing with the bolded because maybe they tried 'eating anything they want' and weren't able to lose weight, for various reasons. Or they followed their calculated TDEE only not to have results (because maybe it's way off for medical or other reasons). None of that invalidates the formula, but the fact that the formula exists is little help for people who are unable to lose weight using the recommended MFP-type caloric deficit and tracking.
I don't understand why it is "necessary" to misappropriate the term CICO to mean something it doesn't mean. CICO really isn't the same thing as calorie counting so people using it as such are almost guaranteed to cause confusion. I get that people use it that way, but I think it is reasonable to suggest that they stop doing that because that isn't what the term means.
That said I agree with you that it is rather rude and unproductive to understand what someone is trying to say and recognizing that they are struggling to achieve their weight loss goals but instead of advise them on alternate strategies they might try one just focuses solely on how they are misusing a term. If someone comes in on good faith honestly wanting advice and they misuse CICO as a term I generally let it slide. If someone, however, comes in commenting snidely about how CICO doesn't always work or doesn't apply to everyone and there is a religious dogmatic cult that follows CICO and blah blah blah then yeah I might speak up against that and point out that CICO isn't calorie counting.10 -
nettiklive wrote: »Haha.
As a short, small, sedentary woman close to goal weight , my maintenance is around 1400-1500 and losing .5 lb a week means 1200. Leaving a margin for failure is much much harder than with another 1000 calories.
True,
90% of 2250 is larger than 90% of 1200. My alarm bells in my head go off at 2k calories. For someone with a 1200 limit, that 90% point is 1080 calories, leaving only a 120 calorie gap.
Not impossible, but it does make the task harder.
But then, I have to fit everything into only 225g of carbohydrates. You could have 300g of carbohydrates (and nothing else) and be at 1200 calories.
We all have our struggle2 -
I think that a huge reason people deny it is because of water weight fluctuations. People who eat "clean" typically consume less sodium and drink more water. Bam immediate weight loss. Add in a low carb diet, and an even larger drop on the scale occurs. They have a moment of eating higher sodium/carbs and an immediate gain. No matter how much I explain how it all works to my friend, he simply says I'm different and it's good that it works for you but if I touch even a small fry I gain a bunch of weight. Some people will never believe that it comes down to CICO. They think that they are different.16
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nettiklive wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »
Tracking CI is far from a perfect science but at least it's visible and somewhat within our control. CO is the hard part - that's the part that's invisible and we have no idea what's happening on that end, we're just guessing. As I mentioned somewhere, if they could come up with a mobile wearable device that would track your exact caloric output all the time, around the clock, I'd be willing to bet a lot more people, at least those motivated enough, would be successful at using caloric restriction to lose weight.
Is it really that hard to track CI or CO? Or is it that people try to go right up to the line drawn as the upper limit of CI for the day?
If you drive a car, it probably has a fuel gauge. For the purposes of this thought experiment, the gauge works. Now do you drive until the car stops, or do you, at some point, notice the gauge is getting close to the E mark and you need to refuel?
I'd say the vast majority of people don't take the gauge past E to the W or Walk reading.
So why not take that same approach with CI vs CO. Yes, it can be inaccurate. OK, so if you are given 2250 calories/day, as my dietitian gave me, how much margin do you leave yourself so you don't fall victim to inaccuracies?
There are ways to mitigate the inaccuracy. Much like the fuel gauge isn't a scientific instrument, giving you 64bit precision with respect to fuel level, CI measurement, when done properly and with some margin, can give the user an idea of where they are in their calorie allowance for the day.
If I know I'm going to drive 300 miles today, I'm going to get some fuel before the trip. I'll need 8-10 gallons of fuel for that trip. If I know I'm going to a birthday party today, I might shave a few hundred calories off of breakfast so I can have a small square of cake and not run out of allowance.
If I'm measuring cheese for my omelette and 28g is my target, 27g is close enough. I don't need to go right up to 28g if my goal is LIMITING my caloric intake. On the other side of the equation, if I get an extra gram of raw vegetables, such as spinach or peppers, the costs of being wrong are not as high as with cheese or ice cream. So I pick my battles and try to be under on the most calorie (and carb) dense foods and don't mind if I'm over on green leafy vegetables and the like.
In other words, I try to build in reserve and adjust my behavior before I ever reach the reserve.
But how many people leave no margin? They are bad at reading the gauge. They didn't measure how much fuel they put in during breakfast, so they overflow their tank at lunch.
How do I get around the CO portion. I don't eat my exercise calories. Then it simply doesn't matter. If my fit-bit is off by 10 or 20% on how many calories I burned in that 60 minute spin class or my last 25 mile bike ride, it doesn't matter because I'm not eating into my exercise calories.
I get 2250/day with 225g of them being carbs and the other 60% being fat and protein. It doesn't really matter if I channel surfed or ran a 10k, I get 2250 calories, limited to 225g of carbs.
That way, if I happen to go over, it's really no big deal. But that's a once or twice a month thing and isn't going to do anything other than delay my progress for a fraction of a day.
And as I lose weight, I'll adjust that 2250/day proportionally. So if I've lost 10% of the weight when assigned that 2250 calorie target, I can downward adjust my targets so I have say 2025-2140 calories and a similar adjustment to my carb limits.
FWIW, my carb limits are due to repeated fasting BG readings in the 170-180 mg/dL range. By limiting my carb intake, I have those numbers consistently down below 120 and some days, I'm below 100 when I wake. They want me to get no more than 40% of my caloric needs via carbohydrates.
Haha.
As a short, small, sedentary woman close to goal weight , my maintenance is around 1400-1500 and losing .5 lb a week means 1200. Leaving a margin for failure is much much harder than with another 1000 calories.
Don't be sedentary and your margin for error will increase...21 -
nettiklive wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »
Tracking CI is far from a perfect science but at least it's visible and somewhat within our control. CO is the hard part - that's the part that's invisible and we have no idea what's happening on that end, we're just guessing. As I mentioned somewhere, if they could come up with a mobile wearable device that would track your exact caloric output all the time, around the clock, I'd be willing to bet a lot more people, at least those motivated enough, would be successful at using caloric restriction to lose weight.
Is it really that hard to track CI or CO? Or is it that people try to go right up to the line drawn as the upper limit of CI for the day?
If you drive a car, it probably has a fuel gauge. For the purposes of this thought experiment, the gauge works. Now do you drive until the car stops, or do you, at some point, notice the gauge is getting close to the E mark and you need to refuel?
I'd say the vast majority of people don't take the gauge past E to the W or Walk reading.
So why not take that same approach with CI vs CO. Yes, it can be inaccurate. OK, so if you are given 2250 calories/day, as my dietitian gave me, how much margin do you leave yourself so you don't fall victim to inaccuracies?
There are ways to mitigate the inaccuracy. Much like the fuel gauge isn't a scientific instrument, giving you 64bit precision with respect to fuel level, CI measurement, when done properly and with some margin, can give the user an idea of where they are in their calorie allowance for the day.
If I know I'm going to drive 300 miles today, I'm going to get some fuel before the trip. I'll need 8-10 gallons of fuel for that trip. If I know I'm going to a birthday party today, I might shave a few hundred calories off of breakfast so I can have a small square of cake and not run out of allowance.
If I'm measuring cheese for my omelette and 28g is my target, 27g is close enough. I don't need to go right up to 28g if my goal is LIMITING my caloric intake. On the other side of the equation, if I get an extra gram of raw vegetables, such as spinach or peppers, the costs of being wrong are not as high as with cheese or ice cream. So I pick my battles and try to be under on the most calorie (and carb) dense foods and don't mind if I'm over on green leafy vegetables and the like.
In other words, I try to build in reserve and adjust my behavior before I ever reach the reserve.
But how many people leave no margin? They are bad at reading the gauge. They didn't measure how much fuel they put in during breakfast, so they overflow their tank at lunch.
How do I get around the CO portion. I don't eat my exercise calories. Then it simply doesn't matter. If my fit-bit is off by 10 or 20% on how many calories I burned in that 60 minute spin class or my last 25 mile bike ride, it doesn't matter because I'm not eating into my exercise calories.
I get 2250/day with 225g of them being carbs and the other 60% being fat and protein. It doesn't really matter if I channel surfed or ran a 10k, I get 2250 calories, limited to 225g of carbs.
That way, if I happen to go over, it's really no big deal. But that's a once or twice a month thing and isn't going to do anything other than delay my progress for a fraction of a day.
And as I lose weight, I'll adjust that 2250/day proportionally. So if I've lost 10% of the weight when assigned that 2250 calorie target, I can downward adjust my targets so I have say 2025-2140 calories and a similar adjustment to my carb limits.
FWIW, my carb limits are due to repeated fasting BG readings in the 170-180 mg/dL range. By limiting my carb intake, I have those numbers consistently down below 120 and some days, I'm below 100 when I wake. They want me to get no more than 40% of my caloric needs via carbohydrates.
Haha.
As a short, small, sedentary woman close to goal weight , my maintenance is around 1400-1500 and losing .5 lb a week means 1200. Leaving a margin for failure is much much harder than with another 1000 calories.
Don't be sedentary and your margin for error will increase...
True! I’m a petite woman who is active, averaging 12-15 k steps a day and because of it my TDEE is around 2200. It means that I have wiggle room for margin of error, or extra Oreos!13 -
tbright1965 wrote: »FWIW, my carb limits are due to repeated fasting BG readings in the 170-180 mg/dL range. By limiting my carb intake, I have those numbers consistently down below 120 and some days, I'm below 100 when I wake. They want me to get no more than 40% of my caloric needs via carbohydrates.
And just for giggles, after ending the celebrations my bride's birthday and stricter limits on my carbs, instead of waking up with 115-120 mg/dL BG levels like I did Sun-Tues, this morning, after having only ~1600 calories and 46g of carbohydrates, I had a more respectable 103 mg/dL BG reading this morning before I went to the gym.
Comparable amounts of exercise on Monday and Tuesday, so no real change there. Just staying as far away as humanly possible to the 225g of carbs and bam, BG levels approach normal.
Who knew you couldn't live on wine and cake?
7 -
tbright1965 wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »FWIW, my carb limits are due to repeated fasting BG readings in the 170-180 mg/dL range. By limiting my carb intake, I have those numbers consistently down below 120 and some days, I'm below 100 when I wake. They want me to get no more than 40% of my caloric needs via carbohydrates.
And just for giggles, after ending the celebrations my bride's birthday and stricter limits on my carbs, instead of waking up with 115-120 mg/dL BG levels like I did Sun-Tues, this morning, after having only ~1600 calories and 46g of carbohydrates, I had a more respectable 103 mg/dL BG reading this morning before I went to the gym.
Comparable amounts of exercise on Monday and Tuesday, so no real change there. Just staying as far away as humanly possible to the 225g of carbs and bam, BG levels approach normal.
Who knew you couldn't live on wine and cake?
And who suggests that you can...?10 -
WinoGelato wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »
Tracking CI is far from a perfect science but at least it's visible and somewhat within our control. CO is the hard part - that's the part that's invisible and we have no idea what's happening on that end, we're just guessing. As I mentioned somewhere, if they could come up with a mobile wearable device that would track your exact caloric output all the time, around the clock, I'd be willing to bet a lot more people, at least those motivated enough, would be successful at using caloric restriction to lose weight.
Is it really that hard to track CI or CO? Or is it that people try to go right up to the line drawn as the upper limit of CI for the day?
If you drive a car, it probably has a fuel gauge. For the purposes of this thought experiment, the gauge works. Now do you drive until the car stops, or do you, at some point, notice the gauge is getting close to the E mark and you need to refuel?
I'd say the vast majority of people don't take the gauge past E to the W or Walk reading.
So why not take that same approach with CI vs CO. Yes, it can be inaccurate. OK, so if you are given 2250 calories/day, as my dietitian gave me, how much margin do you leave yourself so you don't fall victim to inaccuracies?
There are ways to mitigate the inaccuracy. Much like the fuel gauge isn't a scientific instrument, giving you 64bit precision with respect to fuel level, CI measurement, when done properly and with some margin, can give the user an idea of where they are in their calorie allowance for the day.
If I know I'm going to drive 300 miles today, I'm going to get some fuel before the trip. I'll need 8-10 gallons of fuel for that trip. If I know I'm going to a birthday party today, I might shave a few hundred calories off of breakfast so I can have a small square of cake and not run out of allowance.
If I'm measuring cheese for my omelette and 28g is my target, 27g is close enough. I don't need to go right up to 28g if my goal is LIMITING my caloric intake. On the other side of the equation, if I get an extra gram of raw vegetables, such as spinach or peppers, the costs of being wrong are not as high as with cheese or ice cream. So I pick my battles and try to be under on the most calorie (and carb) dense foods and don't mind if I'm over on green leafy vegetables and the like.
In other words, I try to build in reserve and adjust my behavior before I ever reach the reserve.
But how many people leave no margin? They are bad at reading the gauge. They didn't measure how much fuel they put in during breakfast, so they overflow their tank at lunch.
How do I get around the CO portion. I don't eat my exercise calories. Then it simply doesn't matter. If my fit-bit is off by 10 or 20% on how many calories I burned in that 60 minute spin class or my last 25 mile bike ride, it doesn't matter because I'm not eating into my exercise calories.
I get 2250/day with 225g of them being carbs and the other 60% being fat and protein. It doesn't really matter if I channel surfed or ran a 10k, I get 2250 calories, limited to 225g of carbs.
That way, if I happen to go over, it's really no big deal. But that's a once or twice a month thing and isn't going to do anything other than delay my progress for a fraction of a day.
And as I lose weight, I'll adjust that 2250/day proportionally. So if I've lost 10% of the weight when assigned that 2250 calorie target, I can downward adjust my targets so I have say 2025-2140 calories and a similar adjustment to my carb limits.
FWIW, my carb limits are due to repeated fasting BG readings in the 170-180 mg/dL range. By limiting my carb intake, I have those numbers consistently down below 120 and some days, I'm below 100 when I wake. They want me to get no more than 40% of my caloric needs via carbohydrates.
Haha.
As a short, small, sedentary woman close to goal weight , my maintenance is around 1400-1500 and losing .5 lb a week means 1200. Leaving a margin for failure is much much harder than with another 1000 calories.
Don't be sedentary and your margin for error will increase...
True! I’m a petite woman who is active, averaging 12-15 k steps a day and because of it my TDEE is around 2200. It means that I have wiggle room for margin of error, or extra Oreos!
How do you get woo'd for suggesting someone not be sedentary? Very telling IMO...12 -
nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »I don't think anyone is arguing against the physical principle of CICO. For the purpose of discussion here, I see it as a synonym for calorie counting, or not necessarily counting but basically consciously limiting caloric intake to lose weight. I think any debate on the topic should focus around that and not go around and around in circles restating that CICO is not a weight loss method but a scientific formula. It's pointless, like restating that gravity is a scientific concept is not that helpful in a discussion of how to get a paper plane to fly better.
This very thread started with the OP clearly referring to CICO as a weight loss method, and asking why people 'don't believe in it':So many people just don't grasp the concept of calories in calories out. They tell me that not all calories are equal and that you have to eat healthy to lose weight. I used to argue with these people but lately I just smile and nod. It's worked for me.. I eat basically anything I want and have lost 5 kg. I feel so many more people would be successful at weight loss if they just grasped this simple scientific concept. I'm hoping to reach my ultimate weight and then write a blog list about how I did it and prove all the CICO deniers wrong
People are disagreeing with the bolded because maybe they tried 'eating anything they want' and weren't able to lose weight, for various reasons. Or they followed their calculated TDEE only not to have results (because maybe it's way off for medical or other reasons). None of that invalidates the formula, but the fact that the formula exists is little help for people who are unable to lose weight using the recommended MFP-type caloric deficit and tracking.
If you're arguing there are people who were not able to lose weight "for various reasons" while eating foods they chose within the context of a calorie deficit, then you are arguing against CICO.
If you're claiming that it can be difficult for some people to be in a calorie deficit eating the foods they intuitively choose and this is what is keeping them from losing weight -- the lack of the deficit -- well, yeah. This is why you see people recommending various strategies to people who are struggling to hit their calorie goal -- more protein, meal timing changes, higher volume, more fat, more fiber, etc etc.
If it was easy for everyone to consume the "right" amount of energy for their body, we wouldn't see high obesity rates.
I was more referring to the fact that figuring out your true TDEE and the deficit you need to lose is very difficult for many people who deviate in some way from the healthy norm (metabolic disorders, very low muscle mass, etc). People say 'adjust based on real-life results' but between things like water weight fluctuations, temporary gain from exercise or even cortisol levels, plateaus, 'whooshes', cheat days, and a whole slew of other stuff, it is extremely hard to find out exactly WHY you are not losing at a given point in time.
Tracking CI is far from a perfect science but at least it's visible and somewhat within our control. CO is the hard part - that's the part that's invisible and we have no idea what's happening on that end, we're just guessing. As I mentioned somewhere, if they could come up with a mobile wearable device that would track your exact caloric output all the time, around the clock, I'd be willing to bet a lot more people, at least those motivated enough, would be successful at using caloric restriction to lose weight.
You don't know to know *why* you aren't in a deficit, you simply need to know that you're not so that you can adjust. For the purposes of adjustment, it's irrelevant where I need to adjust because my activity level is lower than I actually thought it was, my muscle mass is low, I have an unusually low metabolism, etc.
11 -
nettiklive wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »
Tracking CI is far from a perfect science but at least it's visible and somewhat within our control. CO is the hard part - that's the part that's invisible and we have no idea what's happening on that end, we're just guessing. As I mentioned somewhere, if they could come up with a mobile wearable device that would track your exact caloric output all the time, around the clock, I'd be willing to bet a lot more people, at least those motivated enough, would be successful at using caloric restriction to lose weight.
Is it really that hard to track CI or CO? Or is it that people try to go right up to the line drawn as the upper limit of CI for the day?
If you drive a car, it probably has a fuel gauge. For the purposes of this thought experiment, the gauge works. Now do you drive until the car stops, or do you, at some point, notice the gauge is getting close to the E mark and you need to refuel?
I'd say the vast majority of people don't take the gauge past E to the W or Walk reading.
So why not take that same approach with CI vs CO. Yes, it can be inaccurate. OK, so if you are given 2250 calories/day, as my dietitian gave me, how much margin do you leave yourself so you don't fall victim to inaccuracies?
There are ways to mitigate the inaccuracy. Much like the fuel gauge isn't a scientific instrument, giving you 64bit precision with respect to fuel level, CI measurement, when done properly and with some margin, can give the user an idea of where they are in their calorie allowance for the day.
If I know I'm going to drive 300 miles today, I'm going to get some fuel before the trip. I'll need 8-10 gallons of fuel for that trip. If I know I'm going to a birthday party today, I might shave a few hundred calories off of breakfast so I can have a small square of cake and not run out of allowance.
If I'm measuring cheese for my omelette and 28g is my target, 27g is close enough. I don't need to go right up to 28g if my goal is LIMITING my caloric intake. On the other side of the equation, if I get an extra gram of raw vegetables, such as spinach or peppers, the costs of being wrong are not as high as with cheese or ice cream. So I pick my battles and try to be under on the most calorie (and carb) dense foods and don't mind if I'm over on green leafy vegetables and the like.
In other words, I try to build in reserve and adjust my behavior before I ever reach the reserve.
But how many people leave no margin? They are bad at reading the gauge. They didn't measure how much fuel they put in during breakfast, so they overflow their tank at lunch.
How do I get around the CO portion. I don't eat my exercise calories. Then it simply doesn't matter. If my fit-bit is off by 10 or 20% on how many calories I burned in that 60 minute spin class or my last 25 mile bike ride, it doesn't matter because I'm not eating into my exercise calories.
I get 2250/day with 225g of them being carbs and the other 60% being fat and protein. It doesn't really matter if I channel surfed or ran a 10k, I get 2250 calories, limited to 225g of carbs.
That way, if I happen to go over, it's really no big deal. But that's a once or twice a month thing and isn't going to do anything other than delay my progress for a fraction of a day.
And as I lose weight, I'll adjust that 2250/day proportionally. So if I've lost 10% of the weight when assigned that 2250 calorie target, I can downward adjust my targets so I have say 2025-2140 calories and a similar adjustment to my carb limits.
FWIW, my carb limits are due to repeated fasting BG readings in the 170-180 mg/dL range. By limiting my carb intake, I have those numbers consistently down below 120 and some days, I'm below 100 when I wake. They want me to get no more than 40% of my caloric needs via carbohydrates.
Haha.
As a short, small, sedentary woman close to goal weight , my maintenance is around 1400-1500 and losing .5 lb a week means 1200. Leaving a margin for failure is much much harder than with another 1000 calories.
Don't be sedentary and your margin for error will increase...
Yes, for the majority of sedentary people being sedentary is a choice. If you don't like the results being sedentary has on the amount of calories you burn per day, you can choose to no longer be sedentary.12 -
tbright1965 wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »FWIW, my carb limits are due to repeated fasting BG readings in the 170-180 mg/dL range. By limiting my carb intake, I have those numbers consistently down below 120 and some days, I'm below 100 when I wake. They want me to get no more than 40% of my caloric needs via carbohydrates.
And just for giggles, after ending the celebrations my bride's birthday and stricter limits on my carbs, instead of waking up with 115-120 mg/dL BG levels like I did Sun-Tues, this morning, after having only ~1600 calories and 46g of carbohydrates, I had a more respectable 103 mg/dL BG reading this morning before I went to the gym.
Comparable amounts of exercise on Monday and Tuesday, so no real change there. Just staying as far away as humanly possible to the 225g of carbs and bam, BG levels approach normal.
Who knew you couldn't live on wine and cake?
And who suggests that you can...?
Not exactly wine and cake, but not far off from some real advice peddled these days:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxCUHjx7U7Y6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »
Tracking CI is far from a perfect science but at least it's visible and somewhat within our control. CO is the hard part - that's the part that's invisible and we have no idea what's happening on that end, we're just guessing. As I mentioned somewhere, if they could come up with a mobile wearable device that would track your exact caloric output all the time, around the clock, I'd be willing to bet a lot more people, at least those motivated enough, would be successful at using caloric restriction to lose weight.
Is it really that hard to track CI or CO? Or is it that people try to go right up to the line drawn as the upper limit of CI for the day?
If you drive a car, it probably has a fuel gauge. For the purposes of this thought experiment, the gauge works. Now do you drive until the car stops, or do you, at some point, notice the gauge is getting close to the E mark and you need to refuel?
I'd say the vast majority of people don't take the gauge past E to the W or Walk reading.
So why not take that same approach with CI vs CO. Yes, it can be inaccurate. OK, so if you are given 2250 calories/day, as my dietitian gave me, how much margin do you leave yourself so you don't fall victim to inaccuracies?
There are ways to mitigate the inaccuracy. Much like the fuel gauge isn't a scientific instrument, giving you 64bit precision with respect to fuel level, CI measurement, when done properly and with some margin, can give the user an idea of where they are in their calorie allowance for the day.
If I know I'm going to drive 300 miles today, I'm going to get some fuel before the trip. I'll need 8-10 gallons of fuel for that trip. If I know I'm going to a birthday party today, I might shave a few hundred calories off of breakfast so I can have a small square of cake and not run out of allowance.
If I'm measuring cheese for my omelette and 28g is my target, 27g is close enough. I don't need to go right up to 28g if my goal is LIMITING my caloric intake. On the other side of the equation, if I get an extra gram of raw vegetables, such as spinach or peppers, the costs of being wrong are not as high as with cheese or ice cream. So I pick my battles and try to be under on the most calorie (and carb) dense foods and don't mind if I'm over on green leafy vegetables and the like.
In other words, I try to build in reserve and adjust my behavior before I ever reach the reserve.
But how many people leave no margin? They are bad at reading the gauge. They didn't measure how much fuel they put in during breakfast, so they overflow their tank at lunch.
How do I get around the CO portion. I don't eat my exercise calories. Then it simply doesn't matter. If my fit-bit is off by 10 or 20% on how many calories I burned in that 60 minute spin class or my last 25 mile bike ride, it doesn't matter because I'm not eating into my exercise calories.
I get 2250/day with 225g of them being carbs and the other 60% being fat and protein. It doesn't really matter if I channel surfed or ran a 10k, I get 2250 calories, limited to 225g of carbs.
That way, if I happen to go over, it's really no big deal. But that's a once or twice a month thing and isn't going to do anything other than delay my progress for a fraction of a day.
And as I lose weight, I'll adjust that 2250/day proportionally. So if I've lost 10% of the weight when assigned that 2250 calorie target, I can downward adjust my targets so I have say 2025-2140 calories and a similar adjustment to my carb limits.
FWIW, my carb limits are due to repeated fasting BG readings in the 170-180 mg/dL range. By limiting my carb intake, I have those numbers consistently down below 120 and some days, I'm below 100 when I wake. They want me to get no more than 40% of my caloric needs via carbohydrates.
Haha.
As a short, small, sedentary woman close to goal weight , my maintenance is around 1400-1500 and losing .5 lb a week means 1200. Leaving a margin for failure is much much harder than with another 1000 calories.
Don't be sedentary and your margin for error will increase...
Yes, for the majority of sedentary people being sedentary is a choice. If you don't like the results being sedentary has on the amount of calories you burn per day, you can choose to no longer be sedentary.
There is a proverb that says, "some would rather curse the darkness than light a single lamp."15 -
tbright1965 wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »FWIW, my carb limits are due to repeated fasting BG readings in the 170-180 mg/dL range. By limiting my carb intake, I have those numbers consistently down below 120 and some days, I'm below 100 when I wake. They want me to get no more than 40% of my caloric needs via carbohydrates.
And just for giggles, after ending the celebrations my bride's birthday and stricter limits on my carbs, instead of waking up with 115-120 mg/dL BG levels like I did Sun-Tues, this morning, after having only ~1600 calories and 46g of carbohydrates, I had a more respectable 103 mg/dL BG reading this morning before I went to the gym.
Comparable amounts of exercise on Monday and Tuesday, so no real change there. Just staying as far away as humanly possible to the 225g of carbs and bam, BG levels approach normal.
Who knew you couldn't live on wine and cake?
And who suggests that you can...?
Not exactly wine and cake, but not far off from some real advice peddled these days:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxCUHjx7U7Y
Not going to entertain a response to this nonsense...11 -
tbright1965 wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »FWIW, my carb limits are due to repeated fasting BG readings in the 170-180 mg/dL range. By limiting my carb intake, I have those numbers consistently down below 120 and some days, I'm below 100 when I wake. They want me to get no more than 40% of my caloric needs via carbohydrates.
And just for giggles, after ending the celebrations my bride's birthday and stricter limits on my carbs, instead of waking up with 115-120 mg/dL BG levels like I did Sun-Tues, this morning, after having only ~1600 calories and 46g of carbohydrates, I had a more respectable 103 mg/dL BG reading this morning before I went to the gym.
Comparable amounts of exercise on Monday and Tuesday, so no real change there. Just staying as far away as humanly possible to the 225g of carbs and bam, BG levels approach normal.
Who knew you couldn't live on wine and cake?
And who suggests that you can...?
Not exactly wine and cake, but not far off from some real advice peddled these days:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxCUHjx7U7Y
Not going to entertain a response to this nonsense...
It's hard to watch because it reminds me of the days when SNL was funny. Today, not so much.
It's humor, lighten up Francis3 -
10
-
janejellyroll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »
Tracking CI is far from a perfect science but at least it's visible and somewhat within our control. CO is the hard part - that's the part that's invisible and we have no idea what's happening on that end, we're just guessing. As I mentioned somewhere, if they could come up with a mobile wearable device that would track your exact caloric output all the time, around the clock, I'd be willing to bet a lot more people, at least those motivated enough, would be successful at using caloric restriction to lose weight.
Is it really that hard to track CI or CO? Or is it that people try to go right up to the line drawn as the upper limit of CI for the day?
If you drive a car, it probably has a fuel gauge. For the purposes of this thought experiment, the gauge works. Now do you drive until the car stops, or do you, at some point, notice the gauge is getting close to the E mark and you need to refuel?
I'd say the vast majority of people don't take the gauge past E to the W or Walk reading.
So why not take that same approach with CI vs CO. Yes, it can be inaccurate. OK, so if you are given 2250 calories/day, as my dietitian gave me, how much margin do you leave yourself so you don't fall victim to inaccuracies?
There are ways to mitigate the inaccuracy. Much like the fuel gauge isn't a scientific instrument, giving you 64bit precision with respect to fuel level, CI measurement, when done properly and with some margin, can give the user an idea of where they are in their calorie allowance for the day.
If I know I'm going to drive 300 miles today, I'm going to get some fuel before the trip. I'll need 8-10 gallons of fuel for that trip. If I know I'm going to a birthday party today, I might shave a few hundred calories off of breakfast so I can have a small square of cake and not run out of allowance.
If I'm measuring cheese for my omelette and 28g is my target, 27g is close enough. I don't need to go right up to 28g if my goal is LIMITING my caloric intake. On the other side of the equation, if I get an extra gram of raw vegetables, such as spinach or peppers, the costs of being wrong are not as high as with cheese or ice cream. So I pick my battles and try to be under on the most calorie (and carb) dense foods and don't mind if I'm over on green leafy vegetables and the like.
In other words, I try to build in reserve and adjust my behavior before I ever reach the reserve.
But how many people leave no margin? They are bad at reading the gauge. They didn't measure how much fuel they put in during breakfast, so they overflow their tank at lunch.
How do I get around the CO portion. I don't eat my exercise calories. Then it simply doesn't matter. If my fit-bit is off by 10 or 20% on how many calories I burned in that 60 minute spin class or my last 25 mile bike ride, it doesn't matter because I'm not eating into my exercise calories.
I get 2250/day with 225g of them being carbs and the other 60% being fat and protein. It doesn't really matter if I channel surfed or ran a 10k, I get 2250 calories, limited to 225g of carbs.
That way, if I happen to go over, it's really no big deal. But that's a once or twice a month thing and isn't going to do anything other than delay my progress for a fraction of a day.
And as I lose weight, I'll adjust that 2250/day proportionally. So if I've lost 10% of the weight when assigned that 2250 calorie target, I can downward adjust my targets so I have say 2025-2140 calories and a similar adjustment to my carb limits.
FWIW, my carb limits are due to repeated fasting BG readings in the 170-180 mg/dL range. By limiting my carb intake, I have those numbers consistently down below 120 and some days, I'm below 100 when I wake. They want me to get no more than 40% of my caloric needs via carbohydrates.
Haha.
As a short, small, sedentary woman close to goal weight , my maintenance is around 1400-1500 and losing .5 lb a week means 1200. Leaving a margin for failure is much much harder than with another 1000 calories.
Don't be sedentary and your margin for error will increase...
Yes, for the majority of sedentary people being sedentary is a choice. If you don't like the results being sedentary has on the amount of calories you burn per day, you can choose to no longer be sedentary.
There is a proverb that says, "some would rather curse the darkness than light a single lamp."
Being a Mean Girl, I'd put it a bit differently:
We each have a limited amount of mental and emotional bandwidth.
If I use it to focus on the factors I personally influence and control, and act on those, I gain a sense of agency and mastery, and usually effect some improvement. The extreme alternative would be to focus on why circumstances are so unfair and try to find a way to understand and change the currently uncontrollable factors, which tends to lead to failure, frustration, and a sense of powerlessness. (It does give me a handy list of reasons why I'm not succeeding - conversation fodder - though).
Even if the only factors I control are my own emotional reactions to circumstances, there's usually room for choice between feeling OK with things and moving on, or becoming mired in unhappy resentfulness. I don't enjoy being unhappy; it's a waste of valuable time.
TL;DR: I have two choices, change myself, or change the uncontrollable circumstances. One has higher odds of success.
I don't really need to say how this applies to CICO or its denial, do I?
15 -
tbright1965 wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »FWIW, my carb limits are due to repeated fasting BG readings in the 170-180 mg/dL range. By limiting my carb intake, I have those numbers consistently down below 120 and some days, I'm below 100 when I wake. They want me to get no more than 40% of my caloric needs via carbohydrates.
And just for giggles, after ending the celebrations my bride's birthday and stricter limits on my carbs, instead of waking up with 115-120 mg/dL BG levels like I did Sun-Tues, this morning, after having only ~1600 calories and 46g of carbohydrates, I had a more respectable 103 mg/dL BG reading this morning before I went to the gym.
Comparable amounts of exercise on Monday and Tuesday, so no real change there. Just staying as far away as humanly possible to the 225g of carbs and bam, BG levels approach normal.
Who knew you couldn't live on wine and cake?
And who suggests that you can...?
Not exactly wine and cake, but not far off from some real advice peddled these days:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxCUHjx7U7Y
Not going to entertain a response to this nonsense...
It's hard to watch because it reminds me of the days when SNL was funny. Today, not so much.
It's humor, lighten up Francis
It's stupid...9 -
janejellyroll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »
Tracking CI is far from a perfect science but at least it's visible and somewhat within our control. CO is the hard part - that's the part that's invisible and we have no idea what's happening on that end, we're just guessing. As I mentioned somewhere, if they could come up with a mobile wearable device that would track your exact caloric output all the time, around the clock, I'd be willing to bet a lot more people, at least those motivated enough, would be successful at using caloric restriction to lose weight.
Is it really that hard to track CI or CO? Or is it that people try to go right up to the line drawn as the upper limit of CI for the day?
If you drive a car, it probably has a fuel gauge. For the purposes of this thought experiment, the gauge works. Now do you drive until the car stops, or do you, at some point, notice the gauge is getting close to the E mark and you need to refuel?
I'd say the vast majority of people don't take the gauge past E to the W or Walk reading.
So why not take that same approach with CI vs CO. Yes, it can be inaccurate. OK, so if you are given 2250 calories/day, as my dietitian gave me, how much margin do you leave yourself so you don't fall victim to inaccuracies?
There are ways to mitigate the inaccuracy. Much like the fuel gauge isn't a scientific instrument, giving you 64bit precision with respect to fuel level, CI measurement, when done properly and with some margin, can give the user an idea of where they are in their calorie allowance for the day.
If I know I'm going to drive 300 miles today, I'm going to get some fuel before the trip. I'll need 8-10 gallons of fuel for that trip. If I know I'm going to a birthday party today, I might shave a few hundred calories off of breakfast so I can have a small square of cake and not run out of allowance.
If I'm measuring cheese for my omelette and 28g is my target, 27g is close enough. I don't need to go right up to 28g if my goal is LIMITING my caloric intake. On the other side of the equation, if I get an extra gram of raw vegetables, such as spinach or peppers, the costs of being wrong are not as high as with cheese or ice cream. So I pick my battles and try to be under on the most calorie (and carb) dense foods and don't mind if I'm over on green leafy vegetables and the like.
In other words, I try to build in reserve and adjust my behavior before I ever reach the reserve.
But how many people leave no margin? They are bad at reading the gauge. They didn't measure how much fuel they put in during breakfast, so they overflow their tank at lunch.
How do I get around the CO portion. I don't eat my exercise calories. Then it simply doesn't matter. If my fit-bit is off by 10 or 20% on how many calories I burned in that 60 minute spin class or my last 25 mile bike ride, it doesn't matter because I'm not eating into my exercise calories.
I get 2250/day with 225g of them being carbs and the other 60% being fat and protein. It doesn't really matter if I channel surfed or ran a 10k, I get 2250 calories, limited to 225g of carbs.
That way, if I happen to go over, it's really no big deal. But that's a once or twice a month thing and isn't going to do anything other than delay my progress for a fraction of a day.
And as I lose weight, I'll adjust that 2250/day proportionally. So if I've lost 10% of the weight when assigned that 2250 calorie target, I can downward adjust my targets so I have say 2025-2140 calories and a similar adjustment to my carb limits.
FWIW, my carb limits are due to repeated fasting BG readings in the 170-180 mg/dL range. By limiting my carb intake, I have those numbers consistently down below 120 and some days, I'm below 100 when I wake. They want me to get no more than 40% of my caloric needs via carbohydrates.
Haha.
As a short, small, sedentary woman close to goal weight , my maintenance is around 1400-1500 and losing .5 lb a week means 1200. Leaving a margin for failure is much much harder than with another 1000 calories.
Don't be sedentary and your margin for error will increase...
Yes, for the majority of sedentary people being sedentary is a choice. If you don't like the results being sedentary has on the amount of calories you burn per day, you can choose to no longer be sedentary.
There is a proverb that says, "some would rather curse the darkness than light a single lamp."
Being a Mean Girl, I'd put it a bit differently:
We each have a limited amount of mental and emotional bandwidth.
If I use it to focus on the factors I personally influence and control, and act on those, I gain a sense of agency and mastery, and usually effect some improvement. The extreme alternative would be to focus on why circumstances are so unfair and try to find a way to understand and change the currently uncontrollable factors, which tends to lead to failure, frustration, and a sense of powerlessness. (It does give me a handy list of reasons why I'm not succeeding - conversation fodder - though).
Even if the only factors I control are my own emotional reactions to circumstances, there's usually room for choice between feeling OK with things and moving on, or becoming mired in unhappy resentfulness. I don't enjoy being unhappy; it's a waste of valuable time.
TL;DR: I have two choices, change myself, or change the uncontrollable circumstances. One has higher odds of success.
I don't really need to say how this applies to CICO or its denial, do I?
You can't calm the storm, so stop trying. What you can do is calm yourself. The storm will pass.
— Timber Hawkeye14 -
I often read, count carbs. But seriously, carbs only -- I can eat a ton of meat & cheese.0
-
I just wanted to make the 1,000th comment. Carry on.5
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