If you think you've plateau'd - read this

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Replies

  • Th3stral
    Th3stral Posts: 93 Member
    If only there was such a straight forward answer for those of us with medical conditions!
  • Guinivere
    Guinivere Posts: 357 Member
    bump
  • cbroadberry
    cbroadberry Posts: 130 Member
    Great read, thanks for posting. Makes so much sense!
  • pcastagner
    pcastagner Posts: 1,606 Member
    If only there was such a straight forward answer for those of us with medical conditions!

    There's a reason the results are often referred to as complications.
  • SherryR1971
    SherryR1971 Posts: 1,170 Member
    Replying to read later
  • LeanneGoingThin
    LeanneGoingThin Posts: 215 Member
    I plateaued once, and honestly I wasn't logging accurately at that time nor was I eating like I should. But it's so much easier to blame plateau's than to admit that you slipped up. Because hey, everybody hits a plateau sometime during their weight loss journey, right? Be honest with yourself.
  • WendyTerry420
    WendyTerry420 Posts: 13,274 Member
    Reasons such as your body has adjusted so that what was working is no longer working? This topic has been discussed endlessly on MFP. First, there are many people who do not track accurately and don't lose any weight. Typically, these are newbies who have yet to purchase a food scale, or who believe that weekends don't need to be counted. Second, fat loss is not linear. There are many people on MFP who experiences stalls and whooshes. It's quite common. Third, after a period of doing the same thing for several months and having consistent success, for some people there comes a time when the TDEE lowers. To suggest that every single person who ever stalled out is either having a "lack of control over caloric intake" or a "medical reason" is to oversimplify the biology of fat loss, especially for someone who is/was obese. Some people never stall; others do.

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/of-whooshes-and-squishy-fat.html

    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/797688-experience-with-the-whoosh


    I also agree with TAsunder about "people needing to feel hungry." Maybe if you are trying to get into single digits for a competition or what have you, but the average person has no need to feel hungry on a regular basis, all day. If you are hungry, eat some food, eat more satiating food, make different choices, but don't sit around hungry just because you are trimming the excess fat. That's disordered eating, imo.

    Personally, I found the link to be a typical bodybuilding forum thread. It may make sense to a male who is trying to get their BF% from the teens to single digits, but that's the audience for the thread link in the OP, not "General Diet and Weight Loss Help" where any number of factors might come into play.

    I am sure many people do feel hungry constantly or regularly and still succeed. I can't succeed that way and I'm sure there are tons of other people who can't succeed that way either. I would guess that most of us with food and weight issues will not succeed if they have to "tough it out" and be hungry several hours a day. That's why I exercise intensely, drink lots of water, and eat filling foods. When I'm actually succeeding, it's because I am eliminating my pangs of hunger, not powering through them. The only real exception to that is later in the day if I've not brought enough for lunch. Then I sometimes feel hungry for about an hour until I get home and have a light snack.

    It's ok to be hungry as you get close to mealtime, but if hunger is constant then you aren't eating enough or aren't eating satiating foods. I refuse to be hungry. My mom is always saying that she doesn't want to go on a diet again because she is always hungry. But she always goes on these low calorie and fad diets and such. It's no wonder that she gets too hungry. If I get a decent amount of fats and protein in my meal, then I won't be hungry and hitting the vending machine. I have found that proper planning and watching my macros keeps me losing without the hunger pangs.
  • WendyTerry420
    WendyTerry420 Posts: 13,274 Member
    I disagree about the point where if you haven't lost weight in 3 weeks you need to look at what you're doing, honestly. For women it's not as simple, heck I've had 3 weeks 'plateaus' every month for 4 months.

    Pretty sure you didn't read it very well, then.

    Did you read the first three words? "Medical issues aside" I'm new around here, but it seems like there are a lot more women than men talking about plateaus on the message boards. You know those female hormones fluxations you guys love to say you don't understand and even make fun of? They are medical issues. Men = sperm, women = everything else. Is that always the culprit? Absolutely not! But considering all the pcos talk, etc, it would be wise not to jump quite so quickly to simply input vs output. You don't lose your ability to make sperm and procreate when you exercise at elite levels and/or take in too few calories, so it's probably best not to tell us how our bodies work just like yours. :)

    Men can suffer from hormonal imbalance as well. Further, as has been stated over and over again and ignored over and over again by people who would rather argue than read, certain medical conditions call for a very low carb diet. Don't try to make this about sexual politics, because that's a pretty cheap trick and, like, so 2002.

    Nobody said figuring out your actual tdee (not your estimated tdee according to averages) won't take experimentation. But if you do eat below your tdee, you will lose weight. If you don't eat above your ACTUAL expenditure, it's impossible to gain, because hormones can't make something out of nothing. Does this mean a medical condition won't be alleviated with a special diet? No. Again: no. Sorry if that is a disappointment you'd rather ignore for the sake of having a good ole conflict, but no.

    Paraphrasing:

    Her: I think it's a little more complicated for women.
    Him: Impossible. You just don't understand tdee.

    Then you went on to explain to me how it all works. Thanks for that. Your explanation was, like, so 2002 all over again, yet the time stamp clearly reads 2013.

    You're right that "If you don't eat above your ACTUAL expenditure, it's impossible to gain, because hormones can't make something out of nothing." Yes, but gaining is not the topic of this thread, PLATEAUS are. Again, it's not that we don't understand tdee, just as she said, "For women it's not as simple" to find. I personally don't have this problem, at least not yet. Using the average has worked for me so far and seems to work for the majority of people, but I think that if a women (or man) who has been having success suddenly stops having success (a plateau) we should give them the benefit of the doubt before launching into an elementary explanation of tdee.

    Most of the guys here are not so quick to judge, but the loud ones are. Quite honestly I totally get where it comes from, and I find it frustrating, too. There are a frighteningly large number of people posting who need strangers to point out they haven't eaten a single fruit or veggie for weeks. I just think it's easy to get caught up and forget there are people who genuinely facing these issues and they're not all idiots.

    I was quite annoyed at the implication that I misunderstand TDEE because as a female, I have hormonal surges once a month that muck up the works.

    For me, ever since March I have been eating 1800 calories which is my TDEE-15%. Every other month (this is genetic in my family) my female hormonal changes are quite drastic and cause water retention and other fun stuff that lasts 3 weeks out of the month. Therefore, I might be losing fat, but don't really know it or can't see it because I'm all puffy as hell and the scale either doesn't budge or goes up. To some, this might look like a plateau. To the OP, I might have to eat less because I am doing things wrong. But, if I wait for this month to be over, then in week 5 or 6 I will see my weight and body fat drastically drop within a day or 2 when the hormones return to "normal." What if I changed things during those 3 weeks? I'd never know what I could have lost before. Thank God I haven't changed things up this year.

    And according to my doctor, both OB/GYN and family doctor, this is not a "medical condition." This just happens to be NORMAL.

    But according to the more outspoken males, I just simply can't calculate TDEE correctly, even though according to Lyle McDonald, it is best if women compare their progress looking at corresponding weeks in their monthly cycle. Thank God not all men are as outspoken and condescending about the issue as others.

    This is the same for me as well! That's why I posted the "whooshes" article. My weight loss was consistent for the first two months, but now it comes in whooshes. When the scale finally moves, it's usually been 4-6 weeks. Yes, it is perfectly normal for women, not a "medical condition," as if all females are somehow broken because we have monthly cycles.
  • wild_wild_life
    wild_wild_life Posts: 1,334 Member
    ...Only in my case it's a lot harder to nail down WHY I experienced low testosterone. The signs are there though. Irritability, decreased libido (or none at all), muscle loss and fat gain, lassitude, and sometimes depression. A simple comment can trigger dramatic changes in my hormonal balance.

    ...If I am elevated to a leadership position, the balance changes. If I am demoted to a low social status, the balance changes again.

    This is fascinating. I understand changes in mood based on a comment, promotion, etc, but how do you know it's hormonal fluctuation? Or are all changes in mood hormonal? It makes sense from a biological/evolutionary standpoint because lower-ranking males shouldn't waste their energy on producing large amounts of testosterone, but I'm surprised it's something you've noticed.

    I heard an interview with a woman taking testosterone supplements (transitioning to a man). What I remember is she said it gave her an overwhelming desire to have sex all the time, even with strangers on the bus. This reminds me of the "why are women jealous" thread. I don't know why people think we can separate how we feel and act from biological (and sociological) pressures. But that is way way off topic.
  • WendyTerry420
    WendyTerry420 Posts: 13,274 Member


    Nice job describing MY weight loss pattern to a tee, and dismissing how much effort it takes, then adding another layer of sexual politics to make the conversation even less productive.

    News flash: your doctor patronizing you because you are whining.

    You obviously missed the point.

    Do you find yourself saying this to people a lot?

    Because it's generally a mistake to assume people must have "obviously missed the point" just because they point out you are wrong.

    How can it be that you are so different when our weight loss follows the same pattern? It's totally normal. As in, yr weight loss, as you described it, follows a normal pattern. Can it be you are so into dramatizing your personal struggles that you can't conceive of others succeeding unless their own struggles are easier?

    So sick of being told it's easier for men. I work my *kitten* off for this. Also very sick of women not understanding that men have hormonal fluctuations that affect our moods, weight, and behavior.

    It really sucks that you grew up in a dying patriarchy and I feel for you, but it's not the ONLY struggle in life, and in any case it hurts everyone, not just women.

    You are confusing my FAT loss with my WEIGHT loss. They are not on the same pattern and that is due to hormone fluctations of hormones you don't have in anywhere near the same amounts.

    Please tell me again how your progesterone and estrogen levels bounce around throughout the month causing weight changes that are different from your fat changes. Not saying your pattern is linear in both respects, but the root cause is obviously different.

    Unless you are a woman posing as a man behind that little screen of narrow vision.


    As someone who measures skin folds every day, I am the last one to confuse fat loss with weight loss. When I see the scale go down and the fat stay the same, I get upset about the muscle loss and I realize this comes down to hormonal fluctuation. Only in my case it's a lot harder to nail down WHY I experienced low testosterone. The signs are there though. Irritability, decreased libido (or none at all), muscle loss and fat gain, lassitude, and sometimes depression. A simple comment can trigger dramatic changes in my hormonal balance.


    The problem is, you haven't actually researched this. Yes I do have hormone fluctuations, as a man. Sorry to burst your bubble. Look it up. Further, some men are more stable than others, and some women are more stable than others, and all this occurs on a spectrum. Which means that some women are more stable than some men. As a man, my hormonal fluctuations are also much more affected by circumstance. If I am elevated to a leadership position, the balance changes. If I am demoted to a low social status, the balance changes again.

    I fully support feminism and the dismantling of the patriarchy. I don't support establishing a new, highly regimented and segregated view of humanity based on a one sided and incomplete view of human biology.


    Big difference between actual science and your pop science. Man or woman, this is hard. Man or woman, we are all cut from the same cloth and more alike than different. It's up to you whether you choose to focus on what makes us the same or what makes us different, and I would suggest it comes down to your motivations.




    http://www.hormonesmatter.com/hormones/
    Men make predominantly testosterone from the testes in a relatively constant amount, with small amounts of estrogen and progesterone either manufactured by the testes and adrenal glands or converted in the fat or liver from other precursor hormones.
    Women produce mainly estrogens and progesterone from the ovaries in a cyclic pattern with a small amount of testosterone from the ovaries and adrenal glands.
    <snip>
    Unlike in the male, female sex steroid levels fluctuate in a specific pattern controlled by the interaction of the pituitary gland in the brain and the ovary. It is these fluctuations that make women so different from men in so many different areas of physical and mental well being.
    Weight gain, high blood pressure, depression, mental fog, strokes, autoimmune disease, endometriosis, breast cancer, and infertility are some of the problems either caused or worsened by hormonal fluctuations.
  • ST99000722
    ST99000722 Posts: 204 Member
    Interesting read, thanks
  • Shellz31
    Shellz31 Posts: 214 Member
    ...Only in my case it's a lot harder to nail down WHY I experienced low testosterone. The signs are there though. Irritability, decreased libido (or none at all), muscle loss and fat gain, lassitude, and sometimes depression. A simple comment can trigger dramatic changes in my hormonal balance.

    ...If I am elevated to a leadership position, the balance changes. If I am demoted to a low social status, the balance changes again.

    This is fascinating. I understand changes in mood based on a comment, promotion, etc, but how do you know it's hormonal fluctuation? Or are all changes in mood hormonal? It makes sense from a biological/evolutionary standpoint because lower-ranking males shouldn't waste their energy on producing large amounts of testosterone, but I'm surprised it's something you've noticed.

    I heard an interview with a woman taking testosterone supplements (transitioning to a man). What I remember is she said it gave her an overwhelming desire to have sex all the time, even with strangers on the bus. This reminds me of the "why are women jealous" thread. I don't know why people think we can separate how we feel and act from biological (and sociological) pressures. But that is way way off topic.

    You must have been listening to This American Life. I heard it too. Interesting to hear about a feminist who suddenly can't stop objectifying women because of testosterone!

    I think everyone can agree that both sexes have hormones that may be out of balance. But our hormone levels are different and therefore affect each sex differently. There's also a lot of individual variation. Everyone happy now? Seems it's everyone's TOTM! I personally am just fine as long as I stay on the pill lol. Off it I'm a demon half the time :devil:
  • wild_wild_life
    wild_wild_life Posts: 1,334 Member
    You must have been listening to This American Life. I heard it too. Interesting to hear about a feminist who suddenly can't stop objectifying women because of testosterone!

    That was it! I couldn't remember where I heard it. It was a whole show about testosterone, but I only caught the one segment. They also interviewed a man who lost testosterone. I found it here:

    http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/220/testosterone

    and a transcript here:

    http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/220/transcript
    I think everyone can agree that both sexes have hormones that may be out of balance. But our hormone levels are different and therefore affect each sex differently. There's also a lot of individual variation. Everyone happy now? Seems it's everyone's TOTM! I personally am just fine as long as I stay on the pill lol. Off it I'm a demon half the time :devil:

    I'm happy now! At least until the next estrogen surge. :smile:
  • Carmella9
    Carmella9 Posts: 171 Member
    Pretty much same here, went 5 months on between 1,000- 1,100 lost 20 lbs (down to 10 st 2 lbs) ate 1,600 cals for the next two months and put on 7 lbs....

    Eat more to loose weight my *kitten*! Back on 1,100 now haaa!
  • pcastagner
    pcastagner Posts: 1,606 Member
    Yup, difference between women and men is, at least women can expect a predictable pattern. Men are not so lucky, plus nobody will give us a break on it because pop science doesn't cover men's hormones.



    So here is what women should do to get lean: eat below tdee.

    And for men: eat below tdee.


    What women should do when their weight fluctuates: keep going.

    What men should do when their weight fluctuates: keep going.


    Big ****ing surprise!
  • ritchiedrama
    ritchiedrama Posts: 1,304 Member
    pcastagner, i like you - you have a brain and thats a rare thing around here!
  • nursenelson
    nursenelson Posts: 295
    Not if you have certain medical issues. I have Hashimoto's thyroiditis and I also have Lyme disease. Both can make weightloss very slow and very difficult, even when exercising and eating well.
    [/quote]


    you are amazing!
    a true inspiration!
    thank you for sharing your personal info - and congrats on your weight loss!!!!
  • nursenelson
    nursenelson Posts: 295
    great and interesting read - thanks for sharing OP
    :happy: :happy: :happy: :happy: :happy: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile:
  • ninnyfurr74
    ninnyfurr74 Posts: 111 Member
    Great read! Thanx for posting :) It does make total sense, but I didn't actually know to give it 3 weeks.. Great info in there too! Keep this one going!
  • MercuryBlue
    MercuryBlue Posts: 886 Member
    Great information, thank you!


    I have never had a problem with plateaus, and this made me understand why, I think. I am a math nerd when it comes to losing weight, and I'm always fiddling with the numbers, making charts and graphs, accounting for everything I possibly can (within reason). I probably take it beyond the realm of what most people could tolerate, but I just happen to be one of those people who has a love of details. For me, it's fun. :)

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