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Gullible Naive Society or Just down right Lazy?
Replies
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IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »When I lost all my weight, people would ask how I did it, I would say (in the simplest way) ate less, moved more, they would get the most disappointed look. So my vote is Lazy.
That's the answer that makes you feel the best about yourself.
The truth is, they were looking for more than a catch phrase. They weren't looking for a calorie count and exercise program. They were looking for honest, "how did you get past the challenges" answer.
And you gave them: I'm disciplined and you're lazy.
Bravo. Heavy sarcasm.
Maybe that's more or less the truth. Eat less, move more isn't a catch phrase. It's simple, just not easy. They were looking for an easy button.
No, they weren't!!!!!!!!
I know, because I WAS THAT PERSON. I was that person with the gym memberships and the tapes and the diets and NO PROGRESS.
I wasn't looking for catch phrases. I was looking for real advice.
You go to business school because business is an entire skill set to learn. A simple profit = income - expenses IS NOT REAL BUSINESS ADVICE.
Losing weight took an enormous amount of new skills and habits I had to learn. It took a lot longer than I expected, but I'm also a lot fitter than I ever thought possible.
I can bench press 205lbs and squat 365. I can do backflips. I can swim laps and run races. I can eat clean.
Is any of that "the easy button?"
We aren't looking for "the easy button." We were looking for the "payroll is due, and the salesmen haven't closed the sales, and the bank is still looking over the loan papers, how do we get through" advice.
Cashflow and Net Worth are two different things, and you have to master both to succeed.
But, go ahead, and keep telling people about your superior discipline and lack of excuses.
You seem fixated on the problem, but unwilling or unable to communicate an effective solution.
Rather than fixating on the problem and raging on, what is your solution to effectively communicate this information?
How would your present self communicate what you know now to your former self? Is there not a critical element of personal responsibility or are you going to blame big<insertboogeymanhere>?
I already said it, over and over. Habituation.
It's how you got fat, it's how you get skinny. It's not about choice. It's about how the human brain functions.
It's how you drive a car, ride a bike, type, give your spouse a kiss, put on deodorant.
In order to get to work, you utilize many thousands of habits. Did you CHOOSE to put on your blinker light when you turned your car? No? Did you CHOOSE to put toothpaste on your toothbrush? Did you CHOOSE which finger to put on each letter to type your condescending opinion on this board? No?
******************************************************************************************************************
If a person out there is fat, and struggling, let me tell you, it GETS EASIER. Learning to lose weight is like learning to drive a car. You might struggle just figuring out what all the buttons do, and it looks hopeless. You might even fail the drivers test a few times. But, know that with practice, it will get so much easier, that you can get on the EXPRESSWAY and drive much faster once it gets easier, even to the point where you can do it without hardly any effort, even though you are still doing the same things - like buckling your seat belt, checking the mirrors, pulling out of the driveway, etc., etc.
You will still be doing those things and you might run into some challenges along with way, but the effort you expend will not be as great as when you are first learning. Don't be discouraged by a lack of progress. Every time you pass by the fast food place or eat that spinach, your brain takes note of it, and stores it for easier access, and will make it faster and more automatic the more times you practice. Keep going, even if months go by and the scale laughs at you. There is a saying, weight loss happens slowly at first, then all at once. Keep going, and the all at once will happen. It took 2yrs to go from busting out of 2XL to L and 2 months to go from L to M.
When you get really good at it, you can get in your car, and arrive at your destination, and not even remember the drive over there, like the people who are telling you how lazy you are.
Be encouraged. And, prayer certainly helped me a lot, if you are so inclined. Don't give up! Go slower if you have to, but DON'T GIVE UP!
So all the ranting against catch phrases such as "eat less and move more" and your response is "habituation".
If you take the time to read through the stickied posts throughout these forums you would find the same information - it's a process of replacing "bad" habits that promote "bad" behavior and produce "bad" results and replacing these with "good" habits that promote "good" behavior and produce desired results.
Getting the sense that you have a lot of rage towards your former self and projecting this onto others. Let it go.15 -
IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »When I lost all my weight, people would ask how I did it, I would say (in the simplest way) ate less, moved more, they would get the most disappointed look. So my vote is Lazy.
That's the answer that makes you feel the best about yourself.
The truth is, they were looking for more than a catch phrase. They weren't looking for a calorie count and exercise program. They were looking for honest, "how did you get past the challenges" answer.
And you gave them: I'm disciplined and you're lazy.
Bravo. Heavy sarcasm.
Maybe that's more or less the truth. Eat less, move more isn't a catch phrase. It's simple, just not easy. They were looking for an easy button.
No, they weren't!!!!!!!!
I know, because I WAS THAT PERSON. I was that person with the gym memberships and the tapes and the diets and NO PROGRESS.
I wasn't looking for catch phrases. I was looking for real advice.
You go to business school because business is an entire skill set to learn. A simple profit = income - expenses IS NOT REAL BUSINESS ADVICE.
Losing weight took an enormous amount of new skills and habits I had to learn. It took a lot longer than I expected, but I'm also a lot fitter than I ever thought possible.
I can bench press 205lbs and squat 365. I can do backflips. I can swim laps and run races. I can eat clean.
Is any of that "the easy button?"
We aren't looking for "the easy button." We were looking for the "payroll is due, and the salesmen haven't closed the sales, and the bank is still looking over the loan papers, how do we get through" advice.
Cashflow and Net Worth are two different things, and you have to master both to succeed.
But, go ahead, and keep telling people about your superior discipline and lack of excuses.
You are projecting your motivations and experiences onto others. I was also that person. I suspect many others were as well.
Until I was ready to make the changes, no one could have made that sale on how to do it. No one. Same with finances. Until I was ready, no one could have made me change. I wanted it all, but not enough to do the work. I needed to be ready. Once I was ready, I realized that the information and support had been there all along. Accepting that still didn't make it easy.
And I was doing the work. And I wanted the advice. And I got trite *kitten* advice like eat less, move more. Which I was already doing to the best of my ability and all I had to show for it was insulting comments like I was lazy or not drink soda (which I wasn't).
Maybe next time take it down a notch and try actually being helpful to people if they are actually struggling.
Or, just do you and tell the cigarette addict to just not buy any cigarettes.
I hope that maybe the next time someone asks you, you'll remember this conversation and not be so quick to throw out a catch phrase.
They are not looking for the "what." They are looking for the "how."
Simple question. Are you owed advice?
Oh, you are one of those people. Never mind.
-A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. - Carnegie
Have you happened to notice that everytime you have asked me a direct question I have answered your question even if it was a clearly loaded question like "So which are you, gullible or lazy?". Have you noticed that everytime I have asked you a direct question you have just chose to ignore it and opt to mock or insult instead? Whether or not you have I am guessing those reading the thread have.
Since you can't be bothered I will go ahead and answer. No, you aren't owed advice...so it makes no sense to demand people give only specific types of advice that you just happen to find more palatable...it isn't all about you believe it or not.
See the thread title. Those were the options given. But you didn't tell me, if you are gullible or lazy. Which one was it?
How can you consider it an insult to you when applied to your wealth, but not consider it an insult when applied to people's health? You only deemed the question loaded when it was applied to you.
Either way, you have deemed the conversation tiring, which it is, and I need all the rest of my energy to knock it out of the park at the gym today, because, you know, I'm not lazy.
And I have my priorities in order.
Good day!
He did answer that question, in considerable detail and giving thought to several contexts.
Are you going to tell me how my advice could be better, since you think it's lacking something?9 -
IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »When I lost all my weight, people would ask how I did it, I would say (in the simplest way) ate less, moved more, they would get the most disappointed look. So my vote is Lazy.
That's the answer that makes you feel the best about yourself.
The truth is, they were looking for more than a catch phrase. They weren't looking for a calorie count and exercise program. They were looking for honest, "how did you get past the challenges" answer.
And you gave them: I'm disciplined and you're lazy.
Bravo. Heavy sarcasm.
Maybe that's more or less the truth. Eat less, move more isn't a catch phrase. It's simple, just not easy. They were looking for an easy button.
No, they weren't!!!!!!!!
I know, because I WAS THAT PERSON. I was that person with the gym memberships and the tapes and the diets and NO PROGRESS.
I wasn't looking for catch phrases. I was looking for real advice.
You go to business school because business is an entire skill set to learn. A simple profit = income - expenses IS NOT REAL BUSINESS ADVICE.
Losing weight took an enormous amount of new skills and habits I had to learn. It took a lot longer than I expected, but I'm also a lot fitter than I ever thought possible.
I can bench press 205lbs and squat 365. I can do backflips. I can swim laps and run races. I can eat clean.
Is any of that "the easy button?"
We aren't looking for "the easy button." We were looking for the "payroll is due, and the salesmen haven't closed the sales, and the bank is still looking over the loan papers, how do we get through" advice.
Cashflow and Net Worth are two different things, and you have to master both to succeed.
But, go ahead, and keep telling people about your superior discipline and lack of excuses.
You are projecting your motivations and experiences onto others. I was also that person. I suspect many others were as well.
Until I was ready to make the changes, no one could have made that sale on how to do it. No one. Same with finances. Until I was ready, no one could have made me change. I wanted it all, but not enough to do the work. I needed to be ready. Once I was ready, I realized that the information and support had been there all along. Accepting that still didn't make it easy.
And I was doing the work. And I wanted the advice. And I got trite *kitten* advice like eat less, move more. Which I was already doing to the best of my ability and all I had to show for it was insulting comments like I was lazy or not drink soda (which I wasn't).
Maybe next time take it down a notch and try actually being helpful to people if they are actually struggling.
Or, just do you and tell the cigarette addict to just not buy any cigarettes.
I hope that maybe the next time someone asks you, you'll remember this conversation and not be so quick to throw out a catch phrase.
They are not looking for the "what." They are looking for the "how."
Simple question. Are you owed advice?
Oh, you are one of those people. Never mind.
-A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. - Carnegie
Have you happened to notice that everytime you have asked me a direct question I have answered your question even if it was a clearly loaded question like "So which are you, gullible or lazy?". Have you noticed that everytime I have asked you a direct question you have just chose to ignore it and opt to mock or insult instead? Whether or not you have I am guessing those reading the thread have.
Since you can't be bothered I will go ahead and answer. No, you aren't owed advice...so it makes no sense to demand people give only specific types of advice that you just happen to find more palatable...it isn't all about you believe it or not.
See the thread title. Those were the options given. But you didn't tell me, if you are gullible or lazy. Which one was it?
How can you consider it an insult to you when applied to your wealth, but not consider it an insult when applied to people's health? You only deemed the question loaded when it was applied to you.
Either way, you have deemed the conversation tiring, which it is, and I need all the rest of my energy to knock it out of the park at the gym today, because, you know, I'm not lazy.
And I have my priorities in order.
Good day!
Yeah, I actually did answer your question. If you need the short version I am both gullible and lazy in several aspects of my life, but not all aspects. There are some places in my life where I have weaknesses that I am working on and others where I probably have weaknesses I haven't even recognized yet. Anyone can go back and read my response to you and see that I did answer your question as honestly as I could. I cannot be responsible for whether or not you liked my response.
As for it "being an insult to me" did you actually read my response...my response in which I explicitly stated that I did not find such things insulting? I commented that although clearly you meant it to be an insult being asked about where I am gullible and where I am lazy is not something I actually find to be insulting. Or did you miss that part?No one is perfect, so I don't see why I would consider my imperfections to be embarrassing or something I wouldn't be willing to admit. After all if you can't admit them you can't work on them.
The OP was asking why people thought others could be so gullible when it came to quick-fix health marketing which I think is a reasonable thing to ask and I don't really get why you find it so insulting. There are certainly people who are taken in by marketing scams and sham products and it would behoove them to notice that and ask themselves what about them is making them so gullible. And here is a quick tip...if that doesn't apply to you then the OP probably wasn't talking about you.
Also stop ending every post like it is your last...you have done that like 5 times now....its just melodramatic.
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IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »When I lost all my weight, people would ask how I did it, I would say (in the simplest way) ate less, moved more, they would get the most disappointed look. So my vote is Lazy.
That's the answer that makes you feel the best about yourself.
The truth is, they were looking for more than a catch phrase. They weren't looking for a calorie count and exercise program. They were looking for honest, "how did you get past the challenges" answer.
And you gave them: I'm disciplined and you're lazy.
Bravo. Heavy sarcasm.
Maybe that's more or less the truth. Eat less, move more isn't a catch phrase. It's simple, just not easy. They were looking for an easy button.
No, they weren't!!!!!!!!
I know, because I WAS THAT PERSON. I was that person with the gym memberships and the tapes and the diets and NO PROGRESS.
I wasn't looking for catch phrases. I was looking for real advice.
You go to business school because business is an entire skill set to learn. A simple profit = income - expenses IS NOT REAL BUSINESS ADVICE.
Losing weight took an enormous amount of new skills and habits I had to learn. It took a lot longer than I expected, but I'm also a lot fitter than I ever thought possible.
I can bench press 205lbs and squat 365. I can do backflips. I can swim laps and run races. I can eat clean.
Is any of that "the easy button?"
We aren't looking for "the easy button." We were looking for the "payroll is due, and the salesmen haven't closed the sales, and the bank is still looking over the loan papers, how do we get through" advice.
Cashflow and Net Worth are two different things, and you have to master both to succeed.
But, go ahead, and keep telling people about your superior discipline and lack of excuses.
You are projecting your motivations and experiences onto others. I was also that person. I suspect many others were as well.
Until I was ready to make the changes, no one could have made that sale on how to do it. No one. Same with finances. Until I was ready, no one could have made me change. I wanted it all, but not enough to do the work. I needed to be ready. Once I was ready, I realized that the information and support had been there all along. Accepting that still didn't make it easy.
And I was doing the work. And I wanted the advice. And I got trite *kitten* advice like eat less, move more. Which I was already doing to the best of my ability and all I had to show for it was insulting comments like I was lazy or not drink soda (which I wasn't).
Maybe next time take it down a notch and try actually being helpful to people if they are actually struggling.
Or, just do you and tell the cigarette addict to just not buy any cigarettes.
I hope that maybe the next time someone asks you, you'll remember this conversation and not be so quick to throw out a catch phrase.
They are not looking for the "what." They are looking for the "how."
But this is not an advice thread. This is a debate thread, about why people fall for diet/weight loss scams.
Aaron has posted a number of very informative threads in which he uses his rather formidable scientific knowledge to educate about the science of metabolism and weight loss, working hard to put that information into a form where it will be accessible to people who don't have extensive scientific background. In one sense, that was "advice", and it's very helpful. It isn't "eat less, move more". At random, one is:
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10665134/cico-and-calorie-counting-explained-by-analogy
He uses his science expertise to give detailed, careful answers to people's questions, too.
In this thread, he's calmly answered what I personally found to be some rather insulting questions you asked him, and you've not answered most of his questions at all, as far as I can see. And this is a debate thread.
You're projecting your negative experience onto posters in this thread. When I give advice, I'm sure it's imperfect, but I assure you that I'm trying hard to be helpful, and it goes well beyond "eat less, move more". These are some of examples of advice - threads I started, but typical of what I tell people in response to questions:
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10636388/free-customized-personal-weight-loss-eating-plan-not-spam-or-mlm
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10638211/how-to-find-your-maintenance-calorie-level
Yes, people need information and support. Many of us put a lot of time and patience into providing it, to the best of our (imperfect) ability, completely uncompensated in any way . . . only to be criticized in this thread for only ever saying "eat less, move more" or "I'm disciplined and you're lazy."
Which is really not very competent debate. And not on topic to the OP, either.16 -
People are just lazy. They want a quick fix and not have to put in any real effort.3
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The answer is more than just laziness.
There's a lot of psychology about why people would believe stuff.
First: Authority believability: "Dr" says product X works. So people will inherently believe a percieved authority figure, which is normal human behavior. Unfortunately many "Dr's" are only minimally doctors and not MD's from an accredited university - basically someone with a PhD from a non-accredited school (usually in 3rd world countries).
Second: Correlation vs causation: many random things have very strong correlations yet have no relation to each other. One weird one is "death due to slips and falls" and "milk prices": if you track both they almost match each other perfectly, yet have nothing to do with each other and are irrelevant to each other. If 1000 people lost weight on product X, great - but if the sample size is 10,000 then the cause of weight loss can be attributed to a lot of other things including the placebo effect (which happens to have a 10% rate for any weight loss product).
Third: Laziness. Doing independent research isn't easy if you don't understand that if you do a Google search on anything, generally the first 5 pages will be geared towards your own confirmation bias - yes, they are that damn good at Knowing exactly what your preferences are based on browser and purchase history.
Forth: Circular logic. A pill can help fix, cure, and control diseases, obesity is a disease, therefore a pill can do the same for obesity.
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IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »When I lost all my weight, people would ask how I did it, I would say (in the simplest way) ate less, moved more, they would get the most disappointed look. So my vote is Lazy.
That's the answer that makes you feel the best about yourself.
The truth is, they were looking for more than a catch phrase. They weren't looking for a calorie count and exercise program. They were looking for honest, "how did you get past the challenges" answer.
And you gave them: I'm disciplined and you're lazy.
Bravo. Heavy sarcasm.
Maybe that's more or less the truth. Eat less, move more isn't a catch phrase. It's simple, just not easy. They were looking for an easy button.
No, they weren't!!!!!!!!
I know, because I WAS THAT PERSON. I was that person with the gym memberships and the tapes and the diets and NO PROGRESS.
I wasn't looking for catch phrases. I was looking for real advice.
You go to business school because business is an entire skill set to learn. A simple profit = income - expenses IS NOT REAL BUSINESS ADVICE.
Losing weight took an enormous amount of new skills and habits I had to learn. It took a lot longer than I expected, but I'm also a lot fitter than I ever thought possible.
I can bench press 205lbs and squat 365. I can do backflips. I can swim laps and run races. I can eat clean.
Is any of that "the easy button?"
We aren't looking for "the easy button." We were looking for the "payroll is due, and the salesmen haven't closed the sales, and the bank is still looking over the loan papers, how do we get through" advice.
Cashflow and Net Worth are two different things, and you have to master both to succeed.
But, go ahead, and keep telling people about your superior discipline and lack of excuses.
Yes they were. How do I know? Because I (and many others) have had that discussion many times. Get asked how you did it, tell them the long story of counting calories, starting to go to gym or doing a sport or whatever and the answer you get back? "That's boring, too much trouble I could never do that". That is the reality.
Or look at half the people coming into this forum too. Many don't know how weight loss works, they happily tell their "success story" about how they lost 5 pounds within the first week in keto or whatever, blissfully unaware that there's no way in hell they lost that much fat and that it's mostly water. They just want a quick fix for a long term problem and the diet gurus on the internet are happy to provide exactly that, electing to omit some parts of the truth or outright making stuff up to make their diet seem like magic.11 -
I'll add, I've never seen anyone here react to being accused of a strawman argument by asserting it's a valid debate strategy. It's a debate strategy for sure, but one you use when you value winning the debate rather than coming to an understanding, and/or when you are aware you can't win against the real argument.
Regardless, no one here was asking for advice, so I'm not sure why one would expect a highly nuanced post of weight loss advice in this thread. The discussion was why people fall for weight loss scams. Not sure how it whipped around to anger over overly simplistic advice. And considering the lengthy scientific explanations Aaron has posted on these boards over the last several years, it's misplaced to say the least. He's probably spent more time typing usable advice and instructions here than any MFP employee has!
I've offered to help multiple people I know IRL to log. They don't want to. I think a lot of people self-identify right now with the cards being stacked against them, the universe poking them with a stick. Everything is conspiring to make them fail. They know I log, they see me decide to eat something lighter or pass on a second drink, they tell me I'm nuts to get up early to work out, they make fun of me for always wearing my Fitbit, but then they tell me I'm lucky to be thin. I worked and continue to work my *kitten* off. I did a ton of research. They could too.17 -
IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Someone mentioned the food. I am very new and learning constantly. My thing is you don't realize how bad the food you eat really is until you look up one day and realize you are overweight or have some kind of health issue. They make the (From my perspective at least) food addictive. The more salt, carbs, fat ... the better it tastes.. it's an addiction. Sometimes not even a conscious choice..just what you are accustomed to eating. I recently quit smoking and getting off the unhealthy food is by far harder than quitting the cigs. I decided I would take control of my body. I have made bad decisions about my 'diet' but at least i am trying. Someone mentioned the soda and chips (I would add tv and video games)..yeah if you don't know better it seems so much more appetizing than broccoli and water and exercise.
Honestly I didn't know any better..So when some healthy looking person would say oh I use this or that..yeah I listened. Who knew there is actual work involved and personal responsibility for every thing you put into your body. Like I said.. learning in progress.
People make food that tastes good....must be a conspiracy.
It actually is, to be honest. There is such a thing called hyperpalatability. That's why people can eat a whole bag of chips or fries. They figured out the point of natural satiation - the point where you body has figured out it has eaten enough. Then they found out how to make you want to eat past that point. They intentionally make foods that is hard to stop eating, because of it's hyperpalatability, which produces a dopamine response, which is the same chemical that makes it hard to get off your phone or stop playing video games.
@IHaveMyActTogether if you didn't already read Salt Sugar Fat: How the Food Giants Hooked Us I think you would really enjoy it. My library system had it, so perhaps yours will as well.5 -
IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Someone mentioned the food. I am very new and learning constantly. My thing is you don't realize how bad the food you eat really is until you look up one day and realize you are overweight or have some kind of health issue. They make the (From my perspective at least) food addictive. The more salt, carbs, fat ... the better it tastes.. it's an addiction. Sometimes not even a conscious choice..just what you are accustomed to eating. I recently quit smoking and getting off the unhealthy food is by far harder than quitting the cigs. I decided I would take control of my body. I have made bad decisions about my 'diet' but at least i am trying. Someone mentioned the soda and chips (I would add tv and video games)..yeah if you don't know better it seems so much more appetizing than broccoli and water and exercise.
Honestly I didn't know any better..So when some healthy looking person would say oh I use this or that..yeah I listened. Who knew there is actual work involved and personal responsibility for every thing you put into your body. Like I said.. learning in progress.
People make food that tastes good....must be a conspiracy.
It actually is, to be honest. There is such a thing called hyperpalatability. That's why people can eat a whole bag of chips or fries. They figured out the point of natural satiation - the point where you body has figured out it has eaten enough. Then they found out how to make you want to eat past that point. They intentionally make foods that is hard to stop eating, because of it's hyperpalatability, which produces a dopamine response, which is the same chemical that makes it hard to get off your phone or stop playing video games.
Meh. salt+fat+carb=yummy isn't exactly new food science. I think it has more to do with the fact that today one (int he developed world, anyway) can be both poor and lazy and still have that vat of chips available to them. (Once upon a time, food was not really, really, really cheap - and you had to actually use your own effort to turn that potato into a hyper-palatable pile of salty, fatty, crispy carby-ness. ..(And sitting idly in front of an entertainment device for extended periods of time while physically doing nothing more than eating such foods continuously was also not an available option).8 -
because they don't want to actually put work in, they just want a magic trick.1
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the theory behind hyperpalability is those things were food tastes that were hard to find historically early in the hunter/gather times so abrain is hardwired to want to eat an abundance of those foods to get needed calories. now the big bad food companies are making food to meet those food ideals in hopes we will spend money on their food
validity: meh0 -
I drop in for a minute. I have been a science teacher for over 17 years. I often remark that I wish I knew as much about education and teaching as some people think they know - particularly politicians. I can tell you that "teaching" critical thinking as a lesson is largely a waste of time. If students are put into situations that REQUIRE critical thinking - that has an entirely different outcome.8
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garystrickland357 wrote: »I drop in for a minute. I have been a science teacher for over 17 years. I often remark that I wish I knew as much about education and teaching as some people think they know - particularly politicians. I can tell you that "teaching" critical thinking as a lesson is largely a waste of time. If students are put into situations that REQUIRE critical thinking - that has an entirely different outcome.
I would agree with this. I first attended post secondary school in 1988 and took a 400 level sociology course "Critical Thinking". This was actually "Critical Theory" - essentially a postmodernist deconstruction on the body of work within sociology and anthropology. The course involved no element of critical thinking, so I can understand the apprehension of what may be marketed vs. what the actual product is...and my mind goes to The Music Man...
Later I was taking a post grad elective philosophy course entitled "The Irrationality of Western Science". This was a hands on exercise in critical thinking highlighting 8 key moments in the history of science - a holistic review of everything that was going on surrounding the concepts of heliocentrism, proof of a vacuum, etc. This had as you state, and entirely different outcome, and the perceptions of everyone who took this course looked at the world with a new perspective.10 -
I only read the first page, so maybe this has been said...
But another reason some people "fall" for these things is that it's really hard to critically think about something that you are
(a) emotionally invested in
-- and --
(b) have no knowledge/background/experience on5 -
I only read the first page, so maybe this has been said...
But another reason some people "fall" for these things is that it's really hard to critically think about something that you are
(a) emotionally invested in
-- and --
(b) have no knowledge/background/experience on
This sums up so much of our current state of anything.
Only missing a bit of deliberately inserted fear.6 -
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This topic has been cleaned up and reopened. Please remember that the Debate section is a part of the Main Forums and the Community Guidelines do apply in this section.0
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This topic has been cleaned up and reopened. Please remember that the Debate section is a part of the Main Forums and the Community Guidelines do apply in this section.
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