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“Large” Restaurant Customers need special accommodation?
Replies
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janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »I understand their business savvy in doing this, they want their customers to feel comfortable, but does it benefit society as a whole to encourage and enable a dangerous state of health?
Bars make a lot of money selling booze to alcoholics - the bar's business is to provide a comfortable atmosphere to buy and consume alcohol, but look at all of the wreckage associated with this. So if I created a business model based upon modifying my bar so that it had softer floors for trips and falls, padded corners, comfortable areas to the side for passing out, IVs drips set up for those whose BAC reached dangerous levels, larger toilets for getting sick in, etc., is the extra money I would earn really a good thing?
"But these alcoholics know they are alcoholics, so refusing to accommodate their addiction is shaming them. They will just drink at home or some other business who will be happy to enable them." I don't think anyone would accept that theory when it comes to alcoholism, but when it comes to obesity…
I think there's a pretty big leap between "Hey, it would be nice if this place had some bigger chairs" and "Let's install IV drips so people can drink more alcohol."
Restaurants are already selling large portions of high calorie foods. If you want to go someplace and order a 3,000+ calorie meal, nobody is going to turn down the money. They'll sell you just about anything you want to eat, however often you want to eat it, at just about any portion size you desire. Why is the idea that some of them may want to increase appeal by offering bigger chairs the spot where we get worried about facilitation of obesity?
Is the job of a restaurant to benefit society as a whole? If so, the restaurant industry has already missed that goal and by a huge margin. So why draw the line when it comes to a restaurant making the voluntary decision that a larger portion of their customers can sit down comfortably?
It is a giant leap into the absurd, but that was the point No one would ever create a business model like this fictitious bar, we would all be appalled - and yet gradually retrofitting accommodations to allow for obese people is a step away from confronting the root cause of the problem and enabling those with food addictions.
If food addiction is real, then restaurants are already enabling with their menu offerings and portion sizes. Why is a more comfortable chair a less acceptable form of "enabling"?
Why is it the job of a restaurant to confront the root cause of the problem anyway?
Why is it the job of a bartender to cut off a drunk customer and stop taking his money? Dram shop laws make bars liable for drunk customers that injure others, so it became their job.
Why is it the job of a drug store to prevent me from buying certain quantities of specific over the counter drugs? The FDA restricts the sale of these drugs because people have used abused them, so it became their job.
One could make the argument that while food addiction doesn't seem to affect anyone other than the addict, there are consequences beyond that. We seem to be heading toward a single-payer health insurance system in the US, so more and more we are sharing healthcare costs, and medications and procedures associated with obesity are very expensive. Our collective resources are being diverted to treating self-inflicted medical issues from obesity at the expense of other afflictions.
We should also care about the quality of life of our citizens - impaired mobility, diabetes, hypertension, high cholesterol, heart disease, increased susceptibility to stroke and cancer, etc., are a blight on people's productivity and happiness. We have no problem confronting the impaired health (both mental and physical) of smokers, alcoholics, or drug addicts but somehow food addiction is a "mind your own business" condition.12 -
funjen1972 wrote: »Just throwing this out for considerstion, not my opinion...
I identify as a tall slender female (ha!). Should restaurants have seating which prevents my knees from hitting the underside of a table? Should bar stools always have padding since I don't have much of my own? Should the distance between chairs be closer so I can be a comfortable distance to the others in my party?
I identify as a lefted handed person (ha!). Should we switch the orientation of place settings, water glass and silverware? Should the TP be on the other side of the stall? Should door handles be changed to the other side?
What about if I identify as a great tipper, a horrible tipper, a fast eater, a slow eater, a yeller, a rude patron, a very short person, a drunk, allergic to 10000 things, a (insert anything here)... Should I be accommodated?
Just some thoughts to ponder...
I'm going to go out on a wild limb and say as a tall slender female, the world in general is probably designed to cater to you more than an obese person.
For a weight loss site, there's an interesting amount of casual anti-fat bias on here sometimes.
You're surprised that a site full of people actively maintaining or in the process of achieving a healthy weight demonstrate an anti-fat bias? You're talking about a group that knows through personal experience there is almost no reason for anyone to be obese. There is no shortage of people here who have overcome all of the oft-quoted reasons that people just can't seem to lose weight: PCOS, diabetes, thyroid conditions, menopause, advanced age, physical disability, medication side-effects etc. etc. When you realize that the main thing that makes a person obese in most cases is their own personal choice, whether conscious or subconscious, to allow it to happen, it's kind of hard not to have an anti-fat bias.
Of course that doesn't mean you can abandon compassion or that you have the right to be openly mean to overweight or obese people but everyone that sticks around here knows or will learn that almost no one has good cause to be that way. The exceptions that exist, those with good medical reason, certainly do not comprise roughly half of the North American population.
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Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »I understand their business savvy in doing this, they want their customers to feel comfortable, but does it benefit society as a whole to encourage and enable a dangerous state of health?
Bars make a lot of money selling booze to alcoholics - the bar's business is to provide a comfortable atmosphere to buy and consume alcohol, but look at all of the wreckage associated with this. So if I created a business model based upon modifying my bar so that it had softer floors for trips and falls, padded corners, comfortable areas to the side for passing out, IVs drips set up for those whose BAC reached dangerous levels, larger toilets for getting sick in, etc., is the extra money I would earn really a good thing?
"But these alcoholics know they are alcoholics, so refusing to accommodate their addiction is shaming them. They will just drink at home or some other business who will be happy to enable them." I don't think anyone would accept that theory when it comes to alcoholism, but when it comes to obesity…
I think there's a pretty big leap between "Hey, it would be nice if this place had some bigger chairs" and "Let's install IV drips so people can drink more alcohol."
Restaurants are already selling large portions of high calorie foods. If you want to go someplace and order a 3,000+ calorie meal, nobody is going to turn down the money. They'll sell you just about anything you want to eat, however often you want to eat it, at just about any portion size you desire. Why is the idea that some of them may want to increase appeal by offering bigger chairs the spot where we get worried about facilitation of obesity?
Is the job of a restaurant to benefit society as a whole? If so, the restaurant industry has already missed that goal and by a huge margin. So why draw the line when it comes to a restaurant making the voluntary decision that a larger portion of their customers can sit down comfortably?
It is a giant leap into the absurd, but that was the point No one would ever create a business model like this fictitious bar, we would all be appalled - and yet gradually retrofitting accommodations to allow for obese people is a step away from confronting the root cause of the problem and enabling those with food addictions.
If food addiction is real, then restaurants are already enabling with their menu offerings and portion sizes. Why is a more comfortable chair a less acceptable form of "enabling"?
Why is it the job of a restaurant to confront the root cause of the problem anyway?
Why is it the job of a bartender to cut off a drunk customer and stop taking his money? Dram shop laws make bars liable for drunk customers that injure others, so it became their job.
Why is it the job of a drug store to prevent me from buying certain quantities of specific over the counter drugs? The FDA restricts the sale of these drugs because people have used abused them, so it became their job.
One could make the argument that while food addiction doesn't seem to affect anyone other than the addict, there are consequences beyond that. We seem to be heading toward a single-payer health insurance system in the US, so more and more we are sharing healthcare costs, and medications and procedures associated with obesity are very expensive. Our collective resources are being diverted to treating self-inflicted medical issues from obesity at the expense of other afflictions.
We should also care about the quality of life of our citizens - impaired mobility, diabetes, hypertension, high cholesterol, heart disease, increased susceptibility to stroke and cancer, etc., are a blight on people's productivity and happiness. We have no problem confronting the impaired health (both mental and physical) of smokers, alcoholics, or drug addicts but somehow food addiction is a "mind your own business" condition.
I don't think it's about not caring, whether a neighbors health or our own finances. With me it's a question of who makes the decision, who enforces the decision and what overall metric is used to make the decision.
Where would you be comfortable regarding taking another's personal decision into your own hands?1 -
Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »I understand their business savvy in doing this, they want their customers to feel comfortable, but does it benefit society as a whole to encourage and enable a dangerous state of health?
Bars make a lot of money selling booze to alcoholics - the bar's business is to provide a comfortable atmosphere to buy and consume alcohol, but look at all of the wreckage associated with this. So if I created a business model based upon modifying my bar so that it had softer floors for trips and falls, padded corners, comfortable areas to the side for passing out, IVs drips set up for those whose BAC reached dangerous levels, larger toilets for getting sick in, etc., is the extra money I would earn really a good thing?
"But these alcoholics know they are alcoholics, so refusing to accommodate their addiction is shaming them. They will just drink at home or some other business who will be happy to enable them." I don't think anyone would accept that theory when it comes to alcoholism, but when it comes to obesity…
I think there's a pretty big leap between "Hey, it would be nice if this place had some bigger chairs" and "Let's install IV drips so people can drink more alcohol."
Restaurants are already selling large portions of high calorie foods. If you want to go someplace and order a 3,000+ calorie meal, nobody is going to turn down the money. They'll sell you just about anything you want to eat, however often you want to eat it, at just about any portion size you desire. Why is the idea that some of them may want to increase appeal by offering bigger chairs the spot where we get worried about facilitation of obesity?
Is the job of a restaurant to benefit society as a whole? If so, the restaurant industry has already missed that goal and by a huge margin. So why draw the line when it comes to a restaurant making the voluntary decision that a larger portion of their customers can sit down comfortably?
It is a giant leap into the absurd, but that was the point No one would ever create a business model like this fictitious bar, we would all be appalled - and yet gradually retrofitting accommodations to allow for obese people is a step away from confronting the root cause of the problem and enabling those with food addictions.
If food addiction is real, then restaurants are already enabling with their menu offerings and portion sizes. Why is a more comfortable chair a less acceptable form of "enabling"?
Why is it the job of a restaurant to confront the root cause of the problem anyway?
Why is it the job of a bartender to cut off a drunk customer and stop taking his money? Dram shop laws make bars liable for drunk customers that injure others, so it became their job.
Why is it the job of a drug store to prevent me from buying certain quantities of specific over the counter drugs? The FDA restricts the sale of these drugs because people have used abused them, so it became their job.
One could make the argument that while food addiction doesn't seem to affect anyone other than the addict, there are consequences beyond that. We seem to be heading toward a single-payer health insurance system in the US, so more and more we are sharing healthcare costs, and medications and procedures associated with obesity are very expensive. Our collective resources are being diverted to treating self-inflicted medical issues from obesity at the expense of other afflictions.
We should also care about the quality of life of our citizens - impaired mobility, diabetes, hypertension, high cholesterol, heart disease, increased susceptibility to stroke and cancer, etc., are a blight on people's productivity and happiness. We have no problem confronting the impaired health (both mental and physical) of smokers, alcoholics, or drug addicts but somehow food addiction is a "mind your own business" condition.
The reason why bartenders cut people off is because of the potential a drunk person has to injure *others*. It isn't to attempt to shame someone into sobriety.
These people aren't becoming fat because restaurant seats are too comfortable. They're already obese due to the amount of food they're eating relative to their activity level. If this is the job of restaurants to address, why focus on the chairs instead of the food?
It's like blaming the barstool for the existence of alcoholics. I don't see one good reason to think that keeping restaurant seating at the exact same place it is today will do anything to reduce obesity in this country.
When you talk about laws that require bartenders to avoid over-serving or restrictions on selling certain over-the-counter drugs, you're addressing laws that have been passed due to the perception of a public need. This article was about restaurants voluntarily choosing whether or not to add seats that are more comfortable for obese people. Are you saying you think the law should restrict seating that is more comfortable? I'm not 100% sure what you're even advocating for or how the bar and drug store relate to what you think restaurants should be doing here.
Obesity is a public health problem. I believe that on a personal level, which is why I manage my own weight. However, we still don't have a great sense of what public policies will actually encourage weight loss on a meaningful level. We don't know if more comfortable seating will make people give up and decide to be overweight, so this just seems like a scattershot approach. The only thing we know for sure is that it will create short term discomfort and potential embarrassment for people who are just . . . people.
You're arguing from an obligation for public health and using the example of legal consequences in other areas. Do you think restaurants should be banned from making these type of changes?
If restaurants do have the primary obligation to serve public health, why stop with just the chairs? Why not focus on what we know is the primary *cause* of obesity, people eating more calories than they can use? Would you suggest that restaurants have an obligation not to serve certain portions to people who are overweight? What about people who are normal weight but are ordering more than they "should" for a single meal? Where is the line that a restaurant has responsibility for the choices that people are making?9 -
Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »I understand their business savvy in doing this, they want their customers to feel comfortable, but does it benefit society as a whole to encourage and enable a dangerous state of health?
Bars make a lot of money selling booze to alcoholics - the bar's business is to provide a comfortable atmosphere to buy and consume alcohol, but look at all of the wreckage associated with this. So if I created a business model based upon modifying my bar so that it had softer floors for trips and falls, padded corners, comfortable areas to the side for passing out, IVs drips set up for those whose BAC reached dangerous levels, larger toilets for getting sick in, etc., is the extra money I would earn really a good thing?
"But these alcoholics know they are alcoholics, so refusing to accommodate their addiction is shaming them. They will just drink at home or some other business who will be happy to enable them." I don't think anyone would accept that theory when it comes to alcoholism, but when it comes to obesity…
I think there's a pretty big leap between "Hey, it would be nice if this place had some bigger chairs" and "Let's install IV drips so people can drink more alcohol."
Restaurants are already selling large portions of high calorie foods. If you want to go someplace and order a 3,000+ calorie meal, nobody is going to turn down the money. They'll sell you just about anything you want to eat, however often you want to eat it, at just about any portion size you desire. Why is the idea that some of them may want to increase appeal by offering bigger chairs the spot where we get worried about facilitation of obesity?
Is the job of a restaurant to benefit society as a whole? If so, the restaurant industry has already missed that goal and by a huge margin. So why draw the line when it comes to a restaurant making the voluntary decision that a larger portion of their customers can sit down comfortably?
It is a giant leap into the absurd, but that was the point No one would ever create a business model like this fictitious bar, we would all be appalled - and yet gradually retrofitting accommodations to allow for obese people is a step away from confronting the root cause of the problem and enabling those with food addictions.
If food addiction is real, then restaurants are already enabling with their menu offerings and portion sizes. Why is a more comfortable chair a less acceptable form of "enabling"?
Why is it the job of a restaurant to confront the root cause of the problem anyway?
Why is it the job of a bartender to cut off a drunk customer and stop taking his money? Dram shop laws make bars liable for drunk customers that injure others, so it became their job.
Why is it the job of a drug store to prevent me from buying certain quantities of specific over the counter drugs? The FDA restricts the sale of these drugs because people have used abused them, so it became their job.
One could make the argument that while food addiction doesn't seem to affect anyone other than the addict, there are consequences beyond that. We seem to be heading toward a single-payer health insurance system in the US, so more and more we are sharing healthcare costs, and medications and procedures associated with obesity are very expensive. Our collective resources are being diverted to treating self-inflicted medical issues from obesity at the expense of other afflictions.
We should also care about the quality of life of our citizens - impaired mobility, diabetes, hypertension, high cholesterol, heart disease, increased susceptibility to stroke and cancer, etc., are a blight on people's productivity and happiness. We have no problem confronting the impaired health (both mental and physical) of smokers, alcoholics, or drug addicts but somehow food addiction is a "mind your own business" condition.
My health is none of your concern. Why are you fixated on us fatties? Is it because our "shortcomings" are visible? Why aren't you worried about the health of night shift workers or extreme sport lovers? Do you also propose all establishments close their doors by 10 so we're not enabling the harmful behavior of poor sleep? Cancer treatment is very expensive, why aren't you proposing we close beaches and tanning salons? Better yet, why not work on a cure for obesity that doesn't have a high chance of relapse, maybe you'll succeed where many have failed (hint: wanting fat people to sit in uncomfortable chairs is not it).19 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »I understand their business savvy in doing this, they want their customers to feel comfortable, but does it benefit society as a whole to encourage and enable a dangerous state of health?
Bars make a lot of money selling booze to alcoholics - the bar's business is to provide a comfortable atmosphere to buy and consume alcohol, but look at all of the wreckage associated with this. So if I created a business model based upon modifying my bar so that it had softer floors for trips and falls, padded corners, comfortable areas to the side for passing out, IVs drips set up for those whose BAC reached dangerous levels, larger toilets for getting sick in, etc., is the extra money I would earn really a good thing?
"But these alcoholics know they are alcoholics, so refusing to accommodate their addiction is shaming them. They will just drink at home or some other business who will be happy to enable them." I don't think anyone would accept that theory when it comes to alcoholism, but when it comes to obesity…
I think there's a pretty big leap between "Hey, it would be nice if this place had some bigger chairs" and "Let's install IV drips so people can drink more alcohol."
Restaurants are already selling large portions of high calorie foods. If you want to go someplace and order a 3,000+ calorie meal, nobody is going to turn down the money. They'll sell you just about anything you want to eat, however often you want to eat it, at just about any portion size you desire. Why is the idea that some of them may want to increase appeal by offering bigger chairs the spot where we get worried about facilitation of obesity?
Is the job of a restaurant to benefit society as a whole? If so, the restaurant industry has already missed that goal and by a huge margin. So why draw the line when it comes to a restaurant making the voluntary decision that a larger portion of their customers can sit down comfortably?
It is a giant leap into the absurd, but that was the point No one would ever create a business model like this fictitious bar, we would all be appalled - and yet gradually retrofitting accommodations to allow for obese people is a step away from confronting the root cause of the problem and enabling those with food addictions.
If food addiction is real, then restaurants are already enabling with their menu offerings and portion sizes. Why is a more comfortable chair a less acceptable form of "enabling"?
Why is it the job of a restaurant to confront the root cause of the problem anyway?
Not to mention the lawsuits that would stem from such confrontations...
I personally don't see a clear answer that wouldn't fall left or right of center, either by potentially insulting someone's dignity or by infringing in an unfair manner on the restaurant owners rights.
The woman the article is about seems to have the most fair stance and course of action in my opinion. Others living with obesity for whatever reason might appreciate her effort and the reasoning behind it quite a bit. I have no way of knowing that.
I actually think the proposed solution (an app that lets people know what restaurants have voluntarily taken steps to make themselves more comfortable for larger people) is pretty reasonable.
Eventually I suspect it will sort itself out just like other restaurant issues do. I don't expect every place I go to have vegan or plant-based options, but I appreciate being able to check up online to see before I order. Same with other special requests like gluten-free dishes or alcohol-free cocktails. Places that are interested in the money associated with those things will offer them, other places will decide it is too much trouble. If there truly is a market for more comfortable seating for larger people, I expect we'll just naturally see more of it in the future without too much effort on anyone's part.
I agree with you...it was the app I was referencing as a good effort. And yes, a restaurant is a business first and foremost. Those who want to keep the customer base will choose to accommodate.
A bit of a side note...I always squirm a bit whenever talk arises that carries any hint of over stepping personal boundaries. This isn't directed at you, just generally, but I'm fairly certain that people who are obese know it. I'd much rather err on the side of treating others with dignity.
Yes, I have the same policy. When it comes to the weight of other people, I'm not saying anything unless they specifically ask for my opinion or input.
🙂👍 I have made exceptions in the case of a couple of loved ones though, but that's a whole different topic.
Yeah, I think it can be appropriate when it's a family member or someone very close and the conversation was coming from a place of true concern. I've never been in that boat, fortunately, but if I did have a family member who was significantly over- or underweight, I would probably also talk to them.
It was so worth it in one case, she (SiL) is now down about 30lbs...about 120 to go. My dad...well, he didn't listen. Trying was the right thing to do though.
In situations like this, I've personally found the best way to 'help' is to lead by example, and stfu.
The overweight people in my life know they're overweight, just like I did when I was.
The intent of my genuine concern for them aside, I know how easily that can be misinterpreted as being judgey, demeaning, or worse - seen as being self-congratulatory. The ol, "Hey, look at me! If I can do it, you can, too!" really isn't as inspirational as one might think. LOL. It can definitely backfire.
I've found that people will generally only chose to do something about their obesity when they're entirely ready to. What triggers them into finally making a change is highly individual and usually has nothing to do with 'talks' from concerned friends or family. It's most likely that - medical emergencies aside - they were simply ready to finally start doing something about a health issue they've been aware of for a long time.
The obese people in my life have watched me lose weight. They've also watched me keep it off. We've talked about it in casual conversation, but only when they bought it up. I gave them as much (or, more importantly - as little) information as their level of interest warranted at the time. Planted a seed, if you will, and then let it go.
When and if they're ready to make a change and want to talk to someone who's been there, they know where to find me. In the interim, it's important to me that they haven't felt judged.10 -
Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »I understand their business savvy in doing this, they want their customers to feel comfortable, but does it benefit society as a whole to encourage and enable a dangerous state of health?
Bars make a lot of money selling booze to alcoholics - the bar's business is to provide a comfortable atmosphere to buy and consume alcohol, but look at all of the wreckage associated with this. So if I created a business model based upon modifying my bar so that it had softer floors for trips and falls, padded corners, comfortable areas to the side for passing out, IVs drips set up for those whose BAC reached dangerous levels, larger toilets for getting sick in, etc., is the extra money I would earn really a good thing?
"But these alcoholics know they are alcoholics, so refusing to accommodate their addiction is shaming them. They will just drink at home or some other business who will be happy to enable them." I don't think anyone would accept that theory when it comes to alcoholism, but when it comes to obesity…
I think there's a pretty big leap between "Hey, it would be nice if this place had some bigger chairs" and "Let's install IV drips so people can drink more alcohol."
Restaurants are already selling large portions of high calorie foods. If you want to go someplace and order a 3,000+ calorie meal, nobody is going to turn down the money. They'll sell you just about anything you want to eat, however often you want to eat it, at just about any portion size you desire. Why is the idea that some of them may want to increase appeal by offering bigger chairs the spot where we get worried about facilitation of obesity?
Is the job of a restaurant to benefit society as a whole? If so, the restaurant industry has already missed that goal and by a huge margin. So why draw the line when it comes to a restaurant making the voluntary decision that a larger portion of their customers can sit down comfortably?
It is a giant leap into the absurd, but that was the point No one would ever create a business model like this fictitious bar, we would all be appalled - and yet gradually retrofitting accommodations to allow for obese people is a step away from confronting the root cause of the problem and enabling those with food addictions.
If food addiction is real, then restaurants are already enabling with their menu offerings and portion sizes. Why is a more comfortable chair a less acceptable form of "enabling"?
Why is it the job of a restaurant to confront the root cause of the problem anyway?
Why is it the job of a bartender to cut off a drunk customer and stop taking his money? Dram shop laws make bars liable for drunk customers that injure others, so it became their job.
Why is it the job of a drug store to prevent me from buying certain quantities of specific over the counter drugs? The FDA restricts the sale of these drugs because people have used abused them, so it became their job.
One could make the argument that while food addiction doesn't seem to affect anyone other than the addict, there are consequences beyond that. We seem to be heading toward a single-payer health insurance system in the US, so more and more we are sharing healthcare costs, and medications and procedures associated with obesity are very expensive. Our collective resources are being diverted to treating self-inflicted medical issues from obesity at the expense of other afflictions.
We should also care about the quality of life of our citizens - impaired mobility, diabetes, hypertension, high cholesterol, heart disease, increased susceptibility to stroke and cancer, etc., are a blight on people's productivity and happiness. We have no problem confronting the impaired health (both mental and physical) of smokers, alcoholics, or drug addicts but somehow food addiction is a "mind your own business" condition.
I don't think it's about not caring, whether a neighbors health or our own finances. With me it's a question of who makes the decision, who enforces the decision and what overall metric is used to make the decision.
Where would you be comfortable regarding taking another's personal decision into your own hands?
I'm just providing a different perspective. I'm not advocating any type of government intervention - I'm just encouraging people to look at how we approach other types of addictions and to perhaps pump the brakes a little on the enabling.6 -
If you want to make the analogy, what you should attack are all you can eat places and not allowing people to order beyond a certain amount of food (like maybe banning soda above a certain size, I understand that effort worked out really well).
Good luck with that effort.
With respect to encouraging restaurants to make seating LESS comfortable for fat people (which seems to be what you are getting at), there's no evidence that making fat people feel more uncomfortable and embarrassed about their appearances on a regular basis would cause fat loss. It's not actually difficult to decide it's too humiliating to eat in restaurants and stuff your face at home (including with delivery).
But in any case, the analogy breaks down because the dram shop laws are very closely related to the immediate harm of drunk driving. There is nothing that prevents people from buying as much alcohol as they like at a store and drinking it while sitting on their own couch. That has a health effect, as does over eating, to the extent we share health costs (and in fact a bunch of other costs that overeating doesn't have), and is not addressed by dram shop laws, of course.6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »I understand their business savvy in doing this, they want their customers to feel comfortable, but does it benefit society as a whole to encourage and enable a dangerous state of health?
Bars make a lot of money selling booze to alcoholics - the bar's business is to provide a comfortable atmosphere to buy and consume alcohol, but look at all of the wreckage associated with this. So if I created a business model based upon modifying my bar so that it had softer floors for trips and falls, padded corners, comfortable areas to the side for passing out, IVs drips set up for those whose BAC reached dangerous levels, larger toilets for getting sick in, etc., is the extra money I would earn really a good thing?
"But these alcoholics know they are alcoholics, so refusing to accommodate their addiction is shaming them. They will just drink at home or some other business who will be happy to enable them." I don't think anyone would accept that theory when it comes to alcoholism, but when it comes to obesity…
I think there's a pretty big leap between "Hey, it would be nice if this place had some bigger chairs" and "Let's install IV drips so people can drink more alcohol."
Restaurants are already selling large portions of high calorie foods. If you want to go someplace and order a 3,000+ calorie meal, nobody is going to turn down the money. They'll sell you just about anything you want to eat, however often you want to eat it, at just about any portion size you desire. Why is the idea that some of them may want to increase appeal by offering bigger chairs the spot where we get worried about facilitation of obesity?
Is the job of a restaurant to benefit society as a whole? If so, the restaurant industry has already missed that goal and by a huge margin. So why draw the line when it comes to a restaurant making the voluntary decision that a larger portion of their customers can sit down comfortably?
It is a giant leap into the absurd, but that was the point No one would ever create a business model like this fictitious bar, we would all be appalled - and yet gradually retrofitting accommodations to allow for obese people is a step away from confronting the root cause of the problem and enabling those with food addictions.
If food addiction is real, then restaurants are already enabling with their menu offerings and portion sizes. Why is a more comfortable chair a less acceptable form of "enabling"?
Why is it the job of a restaurant to confront the root cause of the problem anyway?
One could even argue that larger restaurant portions - and they are larger than they once were, and I think the foods more caloric on average now - is one (among very many) factors that contribute(d) to the prevalence of obesity.
Before anyone starts thinking I'm making an "evil restaurantz made me fat!" pitch, I'm not.
People (statistically speaking) like large portions, it seems like a good value, and feels more indulgent to the consumer, so offering large portions is a business decision that's responsive to peoples' tastes (population-wide averages/trends, not individual preference). Same with more fried fat/carb foods that are high in calories: People order them, restaurants offer more. There's no conspiracy. The restaurant industry responds to customer behavior (injecting cost-minimizing measures where it doesn't excessively drag down their customer numbers).
There's no conspiracy. IMO, all of this is driven primarily by collective consumer preference, with individual choices at the root, and those are an individual responsibility. If we used our money to "vote" that we wanted different fare, we'd get it.
I agree that it's not restaurants' job to shape our individual behavior. IMO it can be a little bit something "society" should sometimes try to shape (through laws/regulations among other measures), where individual behavior creates social costs (like the alcohol example); and in general, intelligent positive influences (and maybe a few "make bad stuff expensive" ones, like tobacco taxes) are likely to be more effective at a societal level than fostering unaccommodating strategies.5 -
snickerscharlie wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »I understand their business savvy in doing this, they want their customers to feel comfortable, but does it benefit society as a whole to encourage and enable a dangerous state of health?
Bars make a lot of money selling booze to alcoholics - the bar's business is to provide a comfortable atmosphere to buy and consume alcohol, but look at all of the wreckage associated with this. So if I created a business model based upon modifying my bar so that it had softer floors for trips and falls, padded corners, comfortable areas to the side for passing out, IVs drips set up for those whose BAC reached dangerous levels, larger toilets for getting sick in, etc., is the extra money I would earn really a good thing?
"But these alcoholics know they are alcoholics, so refusing to accommodate their addiction is shaming them. They will just drink at home or some other business who will be happy to enable them." I don't think anyone would accept that theory when it comes to alcoholism, but when it comes to obesity…
I think there's a pretty big leap between "Hey, it would be nice if this place had some bigger chairs" and "Let's install IV drips so people can drink more alcohol."
Restaurants are already selling large portions of high calorie foods. If you want to go someplace and order a 3,000+ calorie meal, nobody is going to turn down the money. They'll sell you just about anything you want to eat, however often you want to eat it, at just about any portion size you desire. Why is the idea that some of them may want to increase appeal by offering bigger chairs the spot where we get worried about facilitation of obesity?
Is the job of a restaurant to benefit society as a whole? If so, the restaurant industry has already missed that goal and by a huge margin. So why draw the line when it comes to a restaurant making the voluntary decision that a larger portion of their customers can sit down comfortably?
It is a giant leap into the absurd, but that was the point No one would ever create a business model like this fictitious bar, we would all be appalled - and yet gradually retrofitting accommodations to allow for obese people is a step away from confronting the root cause of the problem and enabling those with food addictions.
If food addiction is real, then restaurants are already enabling with their menu offerings and portion sizes. Why is a more comfortable chair a less acceptable form of "enabling"?
Why is it the job of a restaurant to confront the root cause of the problem anyway?
Not to mention the lawsuits that would stem from such confrontations...
I personally don't see a clear answer that wouldn't fall left or right of center, either by potentially insulting someone's dignity or by infringing in an unfair manner on the restaurant owners rights.
The woman the article is about seems to have the most fair stance and course of action in my opinion. Others living with obesity for whatever reason might appreciate her effort and the reasoning behind it quite a bit. I have no way of knowing that.
I actually think the proposed solution (an app that lets people know what restaurants have voluntarily taken steps to make themselves more comfortable for larger people) is pretty reasonable.
Eventually I suspect it will sort itself out just like other restaurant issues do. I don't expect every place I go to have vegan or plant-based options, but I appreciate being able to check up online to see before I order. Same with other special requests like gluten-free dishes or alcohol-free cocktails. Places that are interested in the money associated with those things will offer them, other places will decide it is too much trouble. If there truly is a market for more comfortable seating for larger people, I expect we'll just naturally see more of it in the future without too much effort on anyone's part.
I agree with you...it was the app I was referencing as a good effort. And yes, a restaurant is a business first and foremost. Those who want to keep the customer base will choose to accommodate.
A bit of a side note...I always squirm a bit whenever talk arises that carries any hint of over stepping personal boundaries. This isn't directed at you, just generally, but I'm fairly certain that people who are obese know it. I'd much rather err on the side of treating others with dignity.
Yes, I have the same policy. When it comes to the weight of other people, I'm not saying anything unless they specifically ask for my opinion or input.
🙂👍 I have made exceptions in the case of a couple of loved ones though, but that's a whole different topic.
Yeah, I think it can be appropriate when it's a family member or someone very close and the conversation was coming from a place of true concern. I've never been in that boat, fortunately, but if I did have a family member who was significantly over- or underweight, I would probably also talk to them.
It was so worth it in one case, she (SiL) is now down about 30lbs...about 120 to go. My dad...well, he didn't listen. Trying was the right thing to do though.
In situations like this, I've personally found the best way to 'help' is to lead by example.
The overweight people in my life know they're overweight, just like I did when I was.
The intent of my genuine concern for them aside, I know how easily that can be misinterpreted as being judgey, demeaning, or worse - seen as being self-congratulatory. The ol, "Hey, look at me! If I can do it, you can, too!" really isn't as inspirational as one might think. LOL. It can definitely backfire.
I've found that people will generally only chose to do something about their obesity when they're entirely ready to. What triggers them into finally making a change is highly individual and usually has nothing to do with 'talks' from concerned friends or family. It's most likely that - medical emergencies aside - they were simply ready to finally start doing something about a health issue they've been aware of for a long time.
The obese people in my life have watched me lose weight. They've also watched me keep it off. We've talked about it in casual conversation, but only when they bought it up. I gave them as much (or, more importantly - as little) information as their level of interest warranted at the time. Planted a seed, if you will, and then let it go.
When and if they're ready to make a change and want to talk to someone who's been there, they know where to find me. In the interim, it's important to me that they haven't felt judged.
@snickerscharlie First off..I always love your responses 🙂
I never even realized I didn't mention my weight when talking to my SiL until you just mentioned it...she had been rushed to the hospital with a variety of symptoms that screamed cardiac event, turned out to be major stress, physical and mental/ emotional. She's abused herself with food for years and we really thought we were going to lose her. Unacceptable lol. Wonderful woman, and the whole talk was basically "we love you and need you " with offers to help any way we could. Thank God she listened. I saw her a couple of weeks ago and she looks great, and maybe more importantly, Happy and determined 🙂
You're so right In your approach though...5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »I understand their business savvy in doing this, they want their customers to feel comfortable, but does it benefit society as a whole to encourage and enable a dangerous state of health?
Bars make a lot of money selling booze to alcoholics - the bar's business is to provide a comfortable atmosphere to buy and consume alcohol, but look at all of the wreckage associated with this. So if I created a business model based upon modifying my bar so that it had softer floors for trips and falls, padded corners, comfortable areas to the side for passing out, IVs drips set up for those whose BAC reached dangerous levels, larger toilets for getting sick in, etc., is the extra money I would earn really a good thing?
"But these alcoholics know they are alcoholics, so refusing to accommodate their addiction is shaming them. They will just drink at home or some other business who will be happy to enable them." I don't think anyone would accept that theory when it comes to alcoholism, but when it comes to obesity…
I think there's a pretty big leap between "Hey, it would be nice if this place had some bigger chairs" and "Let's install IV drips so people can drink more alcohol."
Restaurants are already selling large portions of high calorie foods. If you want to go someplace and order a 3,000+ calorie meal, nobody is going to turn down the money. They'll sell you just about anything you want to eat, however often you want to eat it, at just about any portion size you desire. Why is the idea that some of them may want to increase appeal by offering bigger chairs the spot where we get worried about facilitation of obesity?
Is the job of a restaurant to benefit society as a whole? If so, the restaurant industry has already missed that goal and by a huge margin. So why draw the line when it comes to a restaurant making the voluntary decision that a larger portion of their customers can sit down comfortably?
It is a giant leap into the absurd, but that was the point No one would ever create a business model like this fictitious bar, we would all be appalled - and yet gradually retrofitting accommodations to allow for obese people is a step away from confronting the root cause of the problem and enabling those with food addictions.
If food addiction is real, then restaurants are already enabling with their menu offerings and portion sizes. Why is a more comfortable chair a less acceptable form of "enabling"?
Why is it the job of a restaurant to confront the root cause of the problem anyway?
One could even argue that larger restaurant portions - and they are larger than they once were, and I think the foods more caloric on average now - is one (among very many) factors that contribute(d) to the prevalence of obesity.
Before anyone starts thinking I'm making an "evil restaurantz made me fat!" pitch, I'm not.
People (statistically speaking) like large portions, it seems like a good value, and feels more indulgent to the consumer, so offering large portions is a business decision that's responsive to peoples' tastes (population-wide averages/trends, not individual preference). Same with more fried fat/carb foods that are high in calories: People order them, restaurants offer more. There's no conspiracy. The restaurant industry responds to customer behavior (injecting cost-minimizing measures where it doesn't excessively drag down their customer numbers).
There's no conspiracy. IMO, all of this is driven primarily by collective consumer preference, with individual choices at the root, and those are an individual responsibility. If we used our money to "vote" that we wanted different fare, we'd get it.
I agree that it's not restaurants' job to shape our individual behavior. IMO it can be a little bit something "society" should sometimes try to shape (through laws/regulations among other measures), where individual behavior creates social costs (like the alcohol example); and in general, intelligent positive influences (and maybe a few "make bad stuff expensive" ones, like tobacco taxes) are likely to be more effective at a societal level than fostering unaccommodating strategies.
Exactly. I think we all get how calories work and that no specific food makes you fat. That said, if one is regularly ordering food at a restaurant based on whatever sounds tastiest and is eating all or almost all the food that is served, weight management will tend to be more difficult because restaurants are very, very good at giving us what we want.
When you're looking at the restaurant-related factors of American obesity, the food has a lot more to do with it than the chairs.5 -
Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »I understand their business savvy in doing this, they want their customers to feel comfortable, but does it benefit society as a whole to encourage and enable a dangerous state of health?
Bars make a lot of money selling booze to alcoholics - the bar's business is to provide a comfortable atmosphere to buy and consume alcohol, but look at all of the wreckage associated with this. So if I created a business model based upon modifying my bar so that it had softer floors for trips and falls, padded corners, comfortable areas to the side for passing out, IVs drips set up for those whose BAC reached dangerous levels, larger toilets for getting sick in, etc., is the extra money I would earn really a good thing?
"But these alcoholics know they are alcoholics, so refusing to accommodate their addiction is shaming them. They will just drink at home or some other business who will be happy to enable them." I don't think anyone would accept that theory when it comes to alcoholism, but when it comes to obesity…
I think there's a pretty big leap between "Hey, it would be nice if this place had some bigger chairs" and "Let's install IV drips so people can drink more alcohol."
Restaurants are already selling large portions of high calorie foods. If you want to go someplace and order a 3,000+ calorie meal, nobody is going to turn down the money. They'll sell you just about anything you want to eat, however often you want to eat it, at just about any portion size you desire. Why is the idea that some of them may want to increase appeal by offering bigger chairs the spot where we get worried about facilitation of obesity?
Is the job of a restaurant to benefit society as a whole? If so, the restaurant industry has already missed that goal and by a huge margin. So why draw the line when it comes to a restaurant making the voluntary decision that a larger portion of their customers can sit down comfortably?
It is a giant leap into the absurd, but that was the point No one would ever create a business model like this fictitious bar, we would all be appalled - and yet gradually retrofitting accommodations to allow for obese people is a step away from confronting the root cause of the problem and enabling those with food addictions.
If food addiction is real, then restaurants are already enabling with their menu offerings and portion sizes. Why is a more comfortable chair a less acceptable form of "enabling"?
Why is it the job of a restaurant to confront the root cause of the problem anyway?
Why is it the job of a bartender to cut off a drunk customer and stop taking his money? Dram shop laws make bars liable for drunk customers that injure others, so it became their job.
Why is it the job of a drug store to prevent me from buying certain quantities of specific over the counter drugs? The FDA restricts the sale of these drugs because people have used abused them, so it became their job.
One could make the argument that while food addiction doesn't seem to affect anyone other than the addict, there are consequences beyond that. We seem to be heading toward a single-payer health insurance system in the US, so more and more we are sharing healthcare costs, and medications and procedures associated with obesity are very expensive. Our collective resources are being diverted to treating self-inflicted medical issues from obesity at the expense of other afflictions.
We should also care about the quality of life of our citizens - impaired mobility, diabetes, hypertension, high cholesterol, heart disease, increased susceptibility to stroke and cancer, etc., are a blight on people's productivity and happiness. We have no problem confronting the impaired health (both mental and physical) of smokers, alcoholics, or drug addicts but somehow food addiction is a "mind your own business" condition.
I don't think it's about not caring, whether a neighbors health or our own finances. With me it's a question of who makes the decision, who enforces the decision and what overall metric is used to make the decision.
Where would you be comfortable regarding taking another's personal decision into your own hands?
I'm just providing a different perspective. I'm not advocating any type of government intervention - I'm just encouraging people to look at how we approach other types of addictions and to perhaps pump the brakes a little on the enabling.
I hear you, seriously. I'm a recovering alky..so I completely understand the problems with enabling. I'd very much like to see the 'unhealthy ' make better choices too, but...maybe it's the years spent on political forums 🤣 but I'm very wary of slippery slopes and the prospect of stepping into someone's very personal space today is just loaded with them.2 -
snickerscharlie wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »I understand their business savvy in doing this, they want their customers to feel comfortable, but does it benefit society as a whole to encourage and enable a dangerous state of health?
Bars make a lot of money selling booze to alcoholics - the bar's business is to provide a comfortable atmosphere to buy and consume alcohol, but look at all of the wreckage associated with this. So if I created a business model based upon modifying my bar so that it had softer floors for trips and falls, padded corners, comfortable areas to the side for passing out, IVs drips set up for those whose BAC reached dangerous levels, larger toilets for getting sick in, etc., is the extra money I would earn really a good thing?
"But these alcoholics know they are alcoholics, so refusing to accommodate their addiction is shaming them. They will just drink at home or some other business who will be happy to enable them." I don't think anyone would accept that theory when it comes to alcoholism, but when it comes to obesity…
I think there's a pretty big leap between "Hey, it would be nice if this place had some bigger chairs" and "Let's install IV drips so people can drink more alcohol."
Restaurants are already selling large portions of high calorie foods. If you want to go someplace and order a 3,000+ calorie meal, nobody is going to turn down the money. They'll sell you just about anything you want to eat, however often you want to eat it, at just about any portion size you desire. Why is the idea that some of them may want to increase appeal by offering bigger chairs the spot where we get worried about facilitation of obesity?
Is the job of a restaurant to benefit society as a whole? If so, the restaurant industry has already missed that goal and by a huge margin. So why draw the line when it comes to a restaurant making the voluntary decision that a larger portion of their customers can sit down comfortably?
It is a giant leap into the absurd, but that was the point No one would ever create a business model like this fictitious bar, we would all be appalled - and yet gradually retrofitting accommodations to allow for obese people is a step away from confronting the root cause of the problem and enabling those with food addictions.
If food addiction is real, then restaurants are already enabling with their menu offerings and portion sizes. Why is a more comfortable chair a less acceptable form of "enabling"?
Why is it the job of a restaurant to confront the root cause of the problem anyway?
Not to mention the lawsuits that would stem from such confrontations...
I personally don't see a clear answer that wouldn't fall left or right of center, either by potentially insulting someone's dignity or by infringing in an unfair manner on the restaurant owners rights.
The woman the article is about seems to have the most fair stance and course of action in my opinion. Others living with obesity for whatever reason might appreciate her effort and the reasoning behind it quite a bit. I have no way of knowing that.
I actually think the proposed solution (an app that lets people know what restaurants have voluntarily taken steps to make themselves more comfortable for larger people) is pretty reasonable.
Eventually I suspect it will sort itself out just like other restaurant issues do. I don't expect every place I go to have vegan or plant-based options, but I appreciate being able to check up online to see before I order. Same with other special requests like gluten-free dishes or alcohol-free cocktails. Places that are interested in the money associated with those things will offer them, other places will decide it is too much trouble. If there truly is a market for more comfortable seating for larger people, I expect we'll just naturally see more of it in the future without too much effort on anyone's part.
I agree with you...it was the app I was referencing as a good effort. And yes, a restaurant is a business first and foremost. Those who want to keep the customer base will choose to accommodate.
A bit of a side note...I always squirm a bit whenever talk arises that carries any hint of over stepping personal boundaries. This isn't directed at you, just generally, but I'm fairly certain that people who are obese know it. I'd much rather err on the side of treating others with dignity.
Yes, I have the same policy. When it comes to the weight of other people, I'm not saying anything unless they specifically ask for my opinion or input.
🙂👍 I have made exceptions in the case of a couple of loved ones though, but that's a whole different topic.
Yeah, I think it can be appropriate when it's a family member or someone very close and the conversation was coming from a place of true concern. I've never been in that boat, fortunately, but if I did have a family member who was significantly over- or underweight, I would probably also talk to them.
It was so worth it in one case, she (SiL) is now down about 30lbs...about 120 to go. My dad...well, he didn't listen. Trying was the right thing to do though.
In situations like this, I've personally found the best way to 'help' is to lead by example.
The overweight people in my life know they're overweight, just like I did when I was.
The intent of my genuine concern for them aside, I know how easily that can be misinterpreted as being judgey, demeaning, or worse - seen as being self-congratulatory. The ol, "Hey, look at me! If I can do it, you can, too!" really isn't as inspirational as one might think. LOL. It can definitely backfire.
I've found that people will generally only chose to do something about their obesity when they're entirely ready to. What triggers them into finally making a change is highly individual and usually has nothing to do with 'talks' from concerned friends or family. It's most likely that - medical emergencies aside - they were simply ready to finally start doing something about a health issue they've been aware of for a long time.
The obese people in my life have watched me lose weight. They've also watched me keep it off. We've talked about it in casual conversation, but only when they bought it up. I gave them as much (or, more importantly - as little) information as their level of interest warranted at the time. Planted a seed, if you will, and then let it go.
When and if they're ready to make a change and want to talk to someone who's been there, they know where to find me. In the interim, it's important to me that they haven't felt judged.
@snickerscharlie First off..I always love your responses 🙂
I never even realized I didn't mention my weight when talking to my SiL until you just mentioned it...she had been rushed to the hospital with a variety of symptoms that screamed cardiac event, turned out to be major stress, physical and mental/ emotional. She's abused herself with food for years and we really thought we were going to lose her. Unacceptable lol. Wonderful woman, and the whole talk was basically "we love you and need you " with offers to help any way we could. Thank God she listened. I saw her a couple of weeks ago and she looks great, and maybe more importantly, Happy and determined 🙂
You're so right In your approach though...
Looks like she had a wake-up call, and with the suppport of those that love her, was ready to make some changes. Kudos to you and her!
1 -
Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »I understand their business savvy in doing this, they want their customers to feel comfortable, but does it benefit society as a whole to encourage and enable a dangerous state of health?
Bars make a lot of money selling booze to alcoholics - the bar's business is to provide a comfortable atmosphere to buy and consume alcohol, but look at all of the wreckage associated with this. So if I created a business model based upon modifying my bar so that it had softer floors for trips and falls, padded corners, comfortable areas to the side for passing out, IVs drips set up for those whose BAC reached dangerous levels, larger toilets for getting sick in, etc., is the extra money I would earn really a good thing?
"But these alcoholics know they are alcoholics, so refusing to accommodate their addiction is shaming them. They will just drink at home or some other business who will be happy to enable them." I don't think anyone would accept that theory when it comes to alcoholism, but when it comes to obesity…
I think there's a pretty big leap between "Hey, it would be nice if this place had some bigger chairs" and "Let's install IV drips so people can drink more alcohol."
Restaurants are already selling large portions of high calorie foods. If you want to go someplace and order a 3,000+ calorie meal, nobody is going to turn down the money. They'll sell you just about anything you want to eat, however often you want to eat it, at just about any portion size you desire. Why is the idea that some of them may want to increase appeal by offering bigger chairs the spot where we get worried about facilitation of obesity?
Is the job of a restaurant to benefit society as a whole? If so, the restaurant industry has already missed that goal and by a huge margin. So why draw the line when it comes to a restaurant making the voluntary decision that a larger portion of their customers can sit down comfortably?
It is a giant leap into the absurd, but that was the point No one would ever create a business model like this fictitious bar, we would all be appalled - and yet gradually retrofitting accommodations to allow for obese people is a step away from confronting the root cause of the problem and enabling those with food addictions.
If food addiction is real, then restaurants are already enabling with their menu offerings and portion sizes. Why is a more comfortable chair a less acceptable form of "enabling"?
Why is it the job of a restaurant to confront the root cause of the problem anyway?
Why is it the job of a bartender to cut off a drunk customer and stop taking his money? Dram shop laws make bars liable for drunk customers that injure others, so it became their job.
Why is it the job of a drug store to prevent me from buying certain quantities of specific over the counter drugs? The FDA restricts the sale of these drugs because people have used abused them, so it became their job.
One could make the argument that while food addiction doesn't seem to affect anyone other than the addict, there are consequences beyond that. We seem to be heading toward a single-payer health insurance system in the US, so more and more we are sharing healthcare costs, and medications and procedures associated with obesity are very expensive. Our collective resources are being diverted to treating self-inflicted medical issues from obesity at the expense of other afflictions.
We should also care about the quality of life of our citizens - impaired mobility, diabetes, hypertension, high cholesterol, heart disease, increased susceptibility to stroke and cancer, etc., are a blight on people's productivity and happiness. We have no problem confronting the impaired health (both mental and physical) of smokers, alcoholics, or drug addicts but somehow food addiction is a "mind your own business" condition.
I don't think it's about not caring, whether a neighbors health or our own finances. With me it's a question of who makes the decision, who enforces the decision and what overall metric is used to make the decision.
Where would you be comfortable regarding taking another's personal decision into your own hands?
I'm just providing a different perspective. I'm not advocating any type of government intervention - I'm just encouraging people to look at how we approach other types of addictions and to perhaps pump the brakes a little on the enabling.
I hear you, seriously. I'm a recovering alky..so I completely understand the problems with enabling. I'd very much like to see the 'unhealthy ' make better choices too, but...maybe it's the years spent on political forums 🤣 but I'm very wary of slippery slopes and the prospect of stepping into someone's very personal space today is just loaded with them.
We all kind of stood around with our hands in our pockets and watched my mom go to an early grave due to self-inflicted lifestyle issues. We were really nice. We took her feelings into account. We respected all of her wishes and just watched her do unhealthy things. She had a bad temper and wouldn't be told what to do. And she died well before her time and my young kids will have almost no memories of their grandmother. Everyone involved lost because we chose to enable...
So yeah, I'm anti-shaming and anti-judging, but I'm also anti-enabling. If I could go back in time and do things over I wouldn't have made it so comfortable for her to circle the drain with her terrible lifestyle choices. I'm not making that same mistake with my dad and I am more firmly engaged, and he has quit smoking, drinks less, started eating better, and gets some amount of exercise - I'm not taking credit for that, he had to make those changes, but accountability to me has made some difference.7 -
Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »I understand their business savvy in doing this, they want their customers to feel comfortable, but does it benefit society as a whole to encourage and enable a dangerous state of health?
Bars make a lot of money selling booze to alcoholics - the bar's business is to provide a comfortable atmosphere to buy and consume alcohol, but look at all of the wreckage associated with this. So if I created a business model based upon modifying my bar so that it had softer floors for trips and falls, padded corners, comfortable areas to the side for passing out, IVs drips set up for those whose BAC reached dangerous levels, larger toilets for getting sick in, etc., is the extra money I would earn really a good thing?
"But these alcoholics know they are alcoholics, so refusing to accommodate their addiction is shaming them. They will just drink at home or some other business who will be happy to enable them." I don't think anyone would accept that theory when it comes to alcoholism, but when it comes to obesity…
I think there's a pretty big leap between "Hey, it would be nice if this place had some bigger chairs" and "Let's install IV drips so people can drink more alcohol."
Restaurants are already selling large portions of high calorie foods. If you want to go someplace and order a 3,000+ calorie meal, nobody is going to turn down the money. They'll sell you just about anything you want to eat, however often you want to eat it, at just about any portion size you desire. Why is the idea that some of them may want to increase appeal by offering bigger chairs the spot where we get worried about facilitation of obesity?
Is the job of a restaurant to benefit society as a whole? If so, the restaurant industry has already missed that goal and by a huge margin. So why draw the line when it comes to a restaurant making the voluntary decision that a larger portion of their customers can sit down comfortably?
It is a giant leap into the absurd, but that was the point No one would ever create a business model like this fictitious bar, we would all be appalled - and yet gradually retrofitting accommodations to allow for obese people is a step away from confronting the root cause of the problem and enabling those with food addictions.
If food addiction is real, then restaurants are already enabling with their menu offerings and portion sizes. Why is a more comfortable chair a less acceptable form of "enabling"?
Why is it the job of a restaurant to confront the root cause of the problem anyway?
Why is it the job of a bartender to cut off a drunk customer and stop taking his money? Dram shop laws make bars liable for drunk customers that injure others, so it became their job.
Why is it the job of a drug store to prevent me from buying certain quantities of specific over the counter drugs? The FDA restricts the sale of these drugs because people have used abused them, so it became their job.
One could make the argument that while food addiction doesn't seem to affect anyone other than the addict, there are consequences beyond that. We seem to be heading toward a single-payer health insurance system in the US, so more and more we are sharing healthcare costs, and medications and procedures associated with obesity are very expensive. Our collective resources are being diverted to treating self-inflicted medical issues from obesity at the expense of other afflictions.
We should also care about the quality of life of our citizens - impaired mobility, diabetes, hypertension, high cholesterol, heart disease, increased susceptibility to stroke and cancer, etc., are a blight on people's productivity and happiness. We have no problem confronting the impaired health (both mental and physical) of smokers, alcoholics, or drug addicts but somehow food addiction is a "mind your own business" condition.
Are you again making an intentionally absurd argument to provoke thought and discussion?
Here in the US (and I believe the UK, Canada, and other first-world countries) quite a lot of money and energy is spent at the societal level (both governments and non-profits) to encourage people toward a healthy weight.
That includes creating, maintaining and publicizing excellent and useful nutritional resources; setting up food-assistance policies and practices to encourage healthy choices (here in my state, extra-money food assistance multipiers for use at farmers' markets, limitations on what products may be purchased in stores using food assistance, classes in meal-planning/cooking/preserving/gardening; etc); publicity campaigns and local-government-sponsored events to foster increased exercise; in some places, extra taxes on "bad" foods (this gets lots of push back, still); educational materials for K-12 use including fun (?) games and such; and lots more.
No, we don't arrest people yet for eating too much. But "not confronting the problem"? That's not what's going on.
We can argue the effectiveness, but it's not that no effort is being made.7 -
Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »I understand their business savvy in doing this, they want their customers to feel comfortable, but does it benefit society as a whole to encourage and enable a dangerous state of health?
Bars make a lot of money selling booze to alcoholics - the bar's business is to provide a comfortable atmosphere to buy and consume alcohol, but look at all of the wreckage associated with this. So if I created a business model based upon modifying my bar so that it had softer floors for trips and falls, padded corners, comfortable areas to the side for passing out, IVs drips set up for those whose BAC reached dangerous levels, larger toilets for getting sick in, etc., is the extra money I would earn really a good thing?
"But these alcoholics know they are alcoholics, so refusing to accommodate their addiction is shaming them. They will just drink at home or some other business who will be happy to enable them." I don't think anyone would accept that theory when it comes to alcoholism, but when it comes to obesity…
I think there's a pretty big leap between "Hey, it would be nice if this place had some bigger chairs" and "Let's install IV drips so people can drink more alcohol."
Restaurants are already selling large portions of high calorie foods. If you want to go someplace and order a 3,000+ calorie meal, nobody is going to turn down the money. They'll sell you just about anything you want to eat, however often you want to eat it, at just about any portion size you desire. Why is the idea that some of them may want to increase appeal by offering bigger chairs the spot where we get worried about facilitation of obesity?
Is the job of a restaurant to benefit society as a whole? If so, the restaurant industry has already missed that goal and by a huge margin. So why draw the line when it comes to a restaurant making the voluntary decision that a larger portion of their customers can sit down comfortably?
It is a giant leap into the absurd, but that was the point No one would ever create a business model like this fictitious bar, we would all be appalled - and yet gradually retrofitting accommodations to allow for obese people is a step away from confronting the root cause of the problem and enabling those with food addictions.
If food addiction is real, then restaurants are already enabling with their menu offerings and portion sizes. Why is a more comfortable chair a less acceptable form of "enabling"?
Why is it the job of a restaurant to confront the root cause of the problem anyway?
Why is it the job of a bartender to cut off a drunk customer and stop taking his money? Dram shop laws make bars liable for drunk customers that injure others, so it became their job.
Why is it the job of a drug store to prevent me from buying certain quantities of specific over the counter drugs? The FDA restricts the sale of these drugs because people have used abused them, so it became their job.
One could make the argument that while food addiction doesn't seem to affect anyone other than the addict, there are consequences beyond that. We seem to be heading toward a single-payer health insurance system in the US, so more and more we are sharing healthcare costs, and medications and procedures associated with obesity are very expensive. Our collective resources are being diverted to treating self-inflicted medical issues from obesity at the expense of other afflictions.
We should also care about the quality of life of our citizens - impaired mobility, diabetes, hypertension, high cholesterol, heart disease, increased susceptibility to stroke and cancer, etc., are a blight on people's productivity and happiness. We have no problem confronting the impaired health (both mental and physical) of smokers, alcoholics, or drug addicts but somehow food addiction is a "mind your own business" condition.
Are you again making an intentionally absurd argument to provoke thought and discussion?
Here in the US (and I believe the UK, Canada, and other first-world countries) quite a lot of money and energy is spent at the societal level (both governments and non-profits) to encourage people toward a healthy weight.
That includes creating, maintaining and publicizing excellent and useful nutritional resources; setting up food-assistance policies and practices to encourage healthy choices (here in my state, extra-money food assistance multipiers for use at farmers' markets, limitations on what products may be purchased in stores using food assistance, classes in meal-planning/cooking/preserving/gardening; etc); publicity campaigns and local-government-sponsored events to foster increased exercise; in some places, extra taxes on "bad" foods (this gets lots of push back, still); educational materials for K-12 use including fun (?) games and such; and lots more.
No, we don't arrest people yet for eating too much. But "not confronting the problem"? That's not what's going on.
We can argue the effectiveness, but it's not that no effort is being made.
In addition to public efforts, there are also efforts being made in the private sector. Many businesses (including the one I work for) have programs that offer support with weight loss. There are health insurance incentives related to various lifestyle/metric changes and discounts on various services/products that support a more active life.4 -
I just find the whole notion of approaching someone who is an adult and telling them they are fat (as if they didn't know it) and then telling them what you demand they do to lose weight is incredibly offensive and, for the vast majority of people, would likely be counterproductive.
That's different than trying to open discussions about how to lose weight with people who you think are interested in it (and most fat people tend to be), and then letting them ask for ideas based on your success or the like. Or just sharing things you think are interesting about weight loss and strategies or about other things relating to a healthy lifestyle.
I'm very firmly someone who likes to figure stuff out for myself and try things that I think may work (based on research). I also knew I was fat well before I lost weight ('cause, duh), but there were certain barriers as to why I wasn't ready that I worked on. When I decided to lose, I lost. Had someone thinner in my family (like my sister, my father) been nagging me to lose or telling me I was fat constantly or insisting that I do things they decided I should do, rather than allowing me to figure it out and do things privately, for the most part, I don't know that I would have been able to lose the weight and it certainly would have been much harder, since it was something I had to decide to do for me, not because others thought I wasn't worthy unless I did. And it would have felt like I was allowing them to take my agency away, to not respect me as a human, and ultimately like they were trying to take credit for my own decisions and success.
My dad nagged my mom constantly about how he thought she needed to lose weight (she was always struggling with her weight although not morbidly obese) and exercise the ways he wanted her to exercise (she liked to walk and do social things, he got into super competitive mode and would not be fun to run or bike with unless you didn't mind that that was his mindset). Would weight loss have helped her ultimate health issues? With her condition there's no assurance it would have, but maybe? But my dad nagging her and her feeling like he didn't respect her and was insisting that she needed to do it his way did not.
My dad's current SO actually got him to be a lot more healthy (he was not overweight but there were positive changes to make) simply by modeling a great lifestyle and being excited about things like nutrition, gardening, more stress reducing ways to be active (helpful when one is in ones 70s) and so on. None of that involved negative feedback really, although she will more lightly poke fun at him some about some things that affect his stress in a way that seems to work for him.
Anyway, back when I was still fat I knew my dad was getting all excited to have a conversation about it with me, and in my mind it was pretty clearly more about it being embarrassing for him to have a fat daughter than genuine concern about my health, and I was really just thinking about avoiding him and coming up with reasons not to visit, but instead I reached out to him and said that I knew I was fat and that (obviously) there were longterm health risks involved, but that I was working on it and having him comment would not be helpful at all. He acknowledged that, thank goodness, since as I said before having people comment on my weight is something that for me makes it harder to lose for a lot of reasons.
And to me it felt like an insult to my intelligence too -- yes, really? I had no clue, since I'm apparently completely stupid!10 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »I understand their business savvy in doing this, they want their customers to feel comfortable, but does it benefit society as a whole to encourage and enable a dangerous state of health?
Bars make a lot of money selling booze to alcoholics - the bar's business is to provide a comfortable atmosphere to buy and consume alcohol, but look at all of the wreckage associated with this. So if I created a business model based upon modifying my bar so that it had softer floors for trips and falls, padded corners, comfortable areas to the side for passing out, IVs drips set up for those whose BAC reached dangerous levels, larger toilets for getting sick in, etc., is the extra money I would earn really a good thing?
"But these alcoholics know they are alcoholics, so refusing to accommodate their addiction is shaming them. They will just drink at home or some other business who will be happy to enable them." I don't think anyone would accept that theory when it comes to alcoholism, but when it comes to obesity…
I think there's a pretty big leap between "Hey, it would be nice if this place had some bigger chairs" and "Let's install IV drips so people can drink more alcohol."
Restaurants are already selling large portions of high calorie foods. If you want to go someplace and order a 3,000+ calorie meal, nobody is going to turn down the money. They'll sell you just about anything you want to eat, however often you want to eat it, at just about any portion size you desire. Why is the idea that some of them may want to increase appeal by offering bigger chairs the spot where we get worried about facilitation of obesity?
Is the job of a restaurant to benefit society as a whole? If so, the restaurant industry has already missed that goal and by a huge margin. So why draw the line when it comes to a restaurant making the voluntary decision that a larger portion of their customers can sit down comfortably?
It is a giant leap into the absurd, but that was the point No one would ever create a business model like this fictitious bar, we would all be appalled - and yet gradually retrofitting accommodations to allow for obese people is a step away from confronting the root cause of the problem and enabling those with food addictions.
If food addiction is real, then restaurants are already enabling with their menu offerings and portion sizes. Why is a more comfortable chair a less acceptable form of "enabling"?
Why is it the job of a restaurant to confront the root cause of the problem anyway?
Why is it the job of a bartender to cut off a drunk customer and stop taking his money? Dram shop laws make bars liable for drunk customers that injure others, so it became their job.
Why is it the job of a drug store to prevent me from buying certain quantities of specific over the counter drugs? The FDA restricts the sale of these drugs because people have used abused them, so it became their job.
One could make the argument that while food addiction doesn't seem to affect anyone other than the addict, there are consequences beyond that. We seem to be heading toward a single-payer health insurance system in the US, so more and more we are sharing healthcare costs, and medications and procedures associated with obesity are very expensive. Our collective resources are being diverted to treating self-inflicted medical issues from obesity at the expense of other afflictions.
We should also care about the quality of life of our citizens - impaired mobility, diabetes, hypertension, high cholesterol, heart disease, increased susceptibility to stroke and cancer, etc., are a blight on people's productivity and happiness. We have no problem confronting the impaired health (both mental and physical) of smokers, alcoholics, or drug addicts but somehow food addiction is a "mind your own business" condition.
Are you again making an intentionally absurd argument to provoke thought and discussion?
Here in the US (and I believe the UK, Canada, and other first-world countries) quite a lot of money and energy is spent at the societal level (both governments and non-profits) to encourage people toward a healthy weight.
That includes creating, maintaining and publicizing excellent and useful nutritional resources; setting up food-assistance policies and practices to encourage healthy choices (here in my state, extra-money food assistance multipiers for use at farmers' markets, limitations on what products may be purchased in stores using food assistance, classes in meal-planning/cooking/preserving/gardening; etc); publicity campaigns and local-government-sponsored events to foster increased exercise; in some places, extra taxes on "bad" foods (this gets lots of push back, still); educational materials for K-12 use including fun (?) games and such; and lots more.
No, we don't arrest people yet for eating too much. But "not confronting the problem"? That's not what's going on.
We can argue the effectiveness, but it's not that no effort is being made.
In addition to public efforts, there are also efforts being made in the private sector. Many businesses (including the one I work for) have programs that offer support with weight loss. There are health insurance incentives related to various lifestyle/metric changes and discounts on various services/products that support a more active life.
And to be fair, bars and cigarette companies (in general at least) don't limit their customers out of concern. They are required to do so either by law or in an effort to avoid being sued.
In order to argue a parallel, you would need to be suggesting that obese people should be able to sue their favorite restaurants for over-serving them, or the government should pass a law requiring some kind of restrictions on the calorie density of meals, or perhaps need to take all customers measurements and provide them with a handout detailing their calorie needs and the dangers of exceeding them.
I for one would not make that parallel-1 -
I just find the whole notion of approaching someone who is an adult and telling them they are fat (as if they didn't know it) and then telling them what you demand they do to lose weight is incredibly offensive and, for the vast majority of people, would likely be counterproductive.
etc.
Just regarding the bolded, some Eastern cultures very much do this... and to complete strangers! All the time! Especially to large Western citizens...
I admit that I also would find it offensive, but apparently not everyone does. Offense is very subjective. And, from what I gather, it's not as though the people saying it are always saying it in a derogatory fashion. It's more of a cautionary, "Hey, buddy. Don't know if you noticed, but you're kind of getting up there in weight. You maybe ought to do something about that." And that's it. I think a lot of people might interpret that unkindly, but that doesn't mean it was meant that way. Doesn't intent matter, too?
Not trying to start a fight but trying to highlight that different cultures have different approaches to obesity and how to help. And maybe a one-size-fits-all approach doesn't truly fit all. Perhaps, as you say, this approach is counterproductive for "the vast majority of people," but at least a few people have piped up in this thread that would indicate this style of approach wasn't counterproductive to them.
People are individuals and they're motivated by a wide variety of things. I also was larger as a kid and caught a good amount of flak for it from my father, who had always been athletic and in shape, so I do relate to your experience, there. His very direct approach felt unkind to me, at the time. Also like you, I wanted to find my own solution. Once I did, he was one of my biggest cheerleaders in my attempts to lose weight, but some people really do respond to a direct approach.5 -
I just find the whole notion of approaching someone who is an adult and telling them they are fat (as if they didn't know it) and then telling them what you demand they do to lose weight is incredibly offensive and, for the vast majority of people, would likely be counterproductive.
etc.
Just regarding the bolded, some Eastern cultures very much do this... and to complete strangers! All the time! Especially to large Western citizens...
Oh, I know, and even the Polish cleaning woman at my workplace used to comment on stuff that I couldn't imagine commenting on. She didn't tell me I was fat, but when I lost weight she would go on and on about it to a bothersome degree, and even said to a (male) employee "doesn't she look better, how much weight do you think she lost?"
That was weird, but I'm not talking about things that occur in different cultural contexts.And, from what I gather, it's not as though the people saying it are always saying it in a derogatory fashion. It's more of a cautionary, "Hey, buddy. Don't know if you noticed, but you're kind of getting up there in weight. You maybe ought to do something about that." And that's it. I think a lot of people might interpret that unkindly, but that doesn't mean it was meant that way. Doesn't intent matter, too?
See, within the US, that seems like you are basically saying the person you are talking to is stupid, or at least that is how I'd tend to take it. I'd try to consider intent, sure, but my point was that I would find it the opposite of helpful, and that's one reason I'd be very wary of doing it myself (as opposed to trying to show I enjoy talking about stuff like cooking and nutrition and exercise and weight loss and am open for any such conversations, joint efforts).
When I was fat I'd tend to head off unhelpful comments by being pretty upfront about how I was fat, ha, ha, just to make sure no one felt compelled to enlighten me (which was no doubt overly weird and defensive).5
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