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Keto diet= good or bad

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  • psuLemonpsuLemon Posts: 35,070Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator Posts: 35,070Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator
    1r1shayes wrote: »
    I am currently in a calorie deficit, as I also do IF. In the past when I've stalled, it was always because it was healing something and the weight loss would start again. I'm certain my weight will start dropping again if I just keto on. I heard it gets more difficult the closer you get to your goal, and I am finding that to be true.

    Its harder to lose weight when you are lean because its harder to create a deficit. And because of things like metabolic adaptation and effects on hormones, its often beneficial to take a diet break and eat at maintenance and then come back with a smaller deficit. You also have to consider logging practices and other variables that effect long term weight loss.
  • psuLemonpsuLemon Posts: 35,070Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator Posts: 35,070Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator
    J72FIT wrote: »
    1r1shayes wrote: »
    No, not true. I could never reverse my T2 diabetes without drastically cutting the carbs. I could only eat 500 calories a day, but if they were all carbs, I wouldn't lose weight. How do I know that? I tried for years. Diet after diet after diet. NONE of them addressed the underlying issue of why I gained weight in the first place: insulin resistance.

    More than likely you gained weight before you became insulin resistant...

    I would say its difficult for either to make that assessment without blood work. People can develop IR even while lean. Things like genetics and even antibiotics can cause IR. Certainly inactivity and obesity drive a large propensity of cases but unless you know this posters medical history, i wouldn't make such statements.
  • J72FITJ72FIT Posts: 5,290Member Member Posts: 5,290Member Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    J72FIT wrote: »
    1r1shayes wrote: »
    No, not true. I could never reverse my T2 diabetes without drastically cutting the carbs. I could only eat 500 calories a day, but if they were all carbs, I wouldn't lose weight. How do I know that? I tried for years. Diet after diet after diet. NONE of them addressed the underlying issue of why I gained weight in the first place: insulin resistance.

    More than likely you gained weight before you became insulin resistant...

    I would say its difficult for either to make that assessment without blood work. People can develop IR even while lean. Things like genetics and even antibiotics can cause IR. Certainly inactivity and obesity drive a large propensity of cases but unless you know this posters medical history, i wouldn't make such statements.

    Fair point. Thx for the perspective...
  • psuLemonpsuLemon Posts: 35,070Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator Posts: 35,070Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    J72FIT wrote: »
    1r1shayes wrote: »
    No, not true. I could never reverse my T2 diabetes without drastically cutting the carbs. I could only eat 500 calories a day, but if they were all carbs, I wouldn't lose weight. How do I know that? I tried for years. Diet after diet after diet. NONE of them addressed the underlying issue of why I gained weight in the first place: insulin resistance.

    More than likely you gained weight before you became insulin resistant...

    I would say its difficult for either to make that assessment without blood work. People can develop IR even while lean. Things like genetics and even antibiotics can cause IR. Certainly inactivity and obesity drive a large propensity of cases but unless you know this posters medical history, i wouldn't make such statements.

    The evidence is that T2D and IR correlate significantly with obesity. Lean people developing real IR is rare, and if someone non obese (or even non overweight) develops it, there's usually an excessive fat issue (for example, Asians for whom the excess fat percentage/BMI is less than for other groups or people who are excess fat while normal BMI). It IS genetic, in large part, but the genetics seem to be how much excessive fat is necessary to trigger it, for some very little, for some a great deal or age is also necessary.

    The claim that IR comes first, weight gain is second still makes little sense. IR means it's harder to get cells to take in carbs, which includes storing them as fat. You are more likely to waste carbs without using them (or storing them).

    It absolutely does not allow someone to gain eating 500 (or slightly over) per day, as claimed. That is simply impossible.

    Again, IR goes up in tandem with obesity and overweight. For nearly everyone losing weight = fixing the problem. Cutting carbs cures the symptoms and may be an alternative approach, but it does not CURE or put IR in remission, as typically it actually decreases insulin sensitivity. What increases insulin sensitivity is weight loss and exercise.

    Yes, i understand IR and how it comes about. The point is to not make a judgement based on no data.

    When one is IR, there are higher rates of de novo lipogenesis will occur. But also when someone has IR and consumes carbs, there body will overproduce insulin which will prolong lipogenesis and minimize lipolysis. So greater periods of storage and minimized fat burning.

    There is very strong evidence that ketogenic diets and low carb can cause remission of IR symptoms even without weight loss. It just happens to make weight loss easier since your body functions better. I would think your over EE would increae, albeit, i haven't seen evidence specifically around that. But if a person generally feels better things like NEAT will generally improve.

    And no, she won't gain weight or prevent weight loss on 500 calories. Because at the level you have to suppress carbs to get there. But also what happens when people over suppress calories, is binging which will then drive higher fat storage.
  • noobootsnooboots Posts: 479Member Member Posts: 479Member Member
    ceiswyn wrote: »
    kimny72 wrote: »
    Low-Carb Diet Benefits People with Metabolic Syndrome Independent of Weight Loss
    Jun 24, 2019 by News Staff / Source

    sci-news.com/medicine/low-carb-diet-metabolic-syndrome-07315.html

    "A new study published in the Journal of Clinical Investigation Insight shows that metabolic syndrome — a cluster of factors that also put people at higher risk of heart disease and stroke — can be rapidly (within 4 weeks) reversed by a low-carb diet in the majority of people even if they don’t lose any weight....."
    1. Study had a whopping 16 participants.
    2. On LC, 9 of 16 no longer qualified as MetSyn after 4 weeks, after MC 3 of 16 no longer qualified, not exactly enough to consider definitive.
    3. I would love to see if this experiment were extended out to 6 months, would the results even out? In other words, does the LC diet just get these results faster?
    4. Considering the typical claims about keto, I found this blurb interesting: "They did not see statistically significant improvements in blood pressure or insulin resistance."
    5. Dr. Volek founded a company that sells a rather expensive private program that claims to treat and reverse T2D through keto. Just something to keep in mind. https://www.virtahealth.com/about/jeffvolek

    I can appreciate that this goes to the argument that benefits of low carb are attributable to weight loss, not the type of diet. This is a small, one off study, but point taken.

    Having said that, I doubt it's a good idea to stay obese but eat low carb to avoid some of the risk of Metabolic Syndrome. And if reaching a healthy weight anyway will reverse it regardless of how you eat, I'm not sure what the point is unless you enjoy eating that way. To me, what this study suggests is: if you are going to stay obese, you might be better off eating low carb. I don't think it asserts anything about the best way to lose weight, or the best way to eat if you are a healthy weight. Just my opinion, of course.

    Low carb is not for weight loss but to see if it will help resolve the health issues that lead to obesity initially since obesity does not seem to be a primary disease but a secondary disease due to some.

    The short n=16 study was only about reducing the known risk factors of heart disease which is a major cause of death in the USA.

    Below is some research on the impact of eating protein, fats and carbs on the gut microbiome that may be of interest to some reading on the subject. The quoted text typically is from the start of different section of the research paper that would be best to read fully in interested in the subject matter.

    Influence of diet on the gut microbiome and implications for human health

    https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5385025/

    "Protein
    The effects of dietary protein on the gut microbiota were first described in 1977."

    "Fats
    Consumption of high saturated and trans fat diets is thought to increase the risk of cardiovascular disease through upregulation of blood total- and LDL-cholesterol [43, 44]."

    "Carbohydrates
    Digestible carbohydrates (starch, sugars)
    Carbohydrates are possibly the most well studied dietary component for their ability to modify the gut microbiome (studies listed in Table 4)."

    "The artificial sweeteners saccharin, sucralose, and aspartame represent another dietary controversy. Artificial sweeteners were originally marketed as a health-conscious, no-calorie food option that could be used to replace natural sugar. Recent evidence from Suez et al. suggests that consumption of all types of artificial sweeteners is actually more likely to induce glucose intolerance than consumption of pure glucose and sucrose. Interestingly, artificial sweeteners are thought to mediate this effect through alteration of gut microbiota." The bold text is my doing for a special person that is struggling with this health risk.

    "Besides immunity, gut microorganisms have also been shown to impact host metabolic health. Individuals with metabolic disorders such as obesity and diabetes have been shown to have intestinal dysbiosis in relation to healthy individuals [148, 149]. Further characterization of the link between the gut microbiome and obesity has revealed several bacterial groups that may specifically contribute to the disease." Note: Bolding in this paragraph is to highlight that obesity primarily is a metabolic disorder that can cause obesity as a side effect of a primary health disorder. Truly healthy people or other animals do not become obese. Over eating is not a primary cause of obesity in a medical sense. Calories are units of energy. Macros are what that primarily leads to a positive or negative gut microbiome. The gut brain connection illustrates how what we want to put into our mouths can be influenced by one's own gut microbiome demands.

    Binging is one example of this. Totally healthy people do not binge eat from what I can read or my experience since Oct 2014 at the age of 63. If some have medical science links that prove my personal experiences of the past 5 years of eating Low Carb High Fat are not factual and or that this research report is not factual please post the links and we can debate from that point.

    Please do tell me what is wrong with me that causes my binge eating please. And indeed how it is that this thing has been wrong with me for the last forty years without any other apparent impact.

    Please share all of your n=1 studies over the last 40 years and their results if you want a MFP peer review in your case perhaps.

    In my case I had did not start my first n=1 where I left all types of sweeteners and all forms of all grains until Oct 2014 cold turkey successfully and made up my calorie loss with coconut oil. My only objective was to find a diet based solution to my 40 years of joint pain and IBS because the doctors has me scheduled to start Enbrel injections Nov 2014 that I thought would be the end of me in my weakened state of health at the age of 63.

    A couple weeks into LCHF my pain and cravings started to drop like a rock and both have been well managed by diet only for over 4 years. The unplanned weight loss started at the six week mark and now I have been down 50 pounds for 4 years eating all that I wanted so never going hungry. I do keep my carbs down to 50 grams daily because of my plant based fiber that is as low as I will go carb wise but have no daily calorie limits but I seldom eat over 3000 calories a day.

    In my case my binge eating desired stopped a couple weeks after I dropped my daily carbs down to 50 grams. I make no claims as to why my fuel gauge started back to working after being broken for 40 years. I expect in light of medical research my new Way Of Eating fixed my primary health issues that was causing my secondary obesity related issues since my health and lab exams became normal for the first time in 40 years.

    Just picking up on the IBS and joint pain, it might be that grains or wheat were simply the problem for you, rather than carbs per se. So when you cut out the grains/wheat whatever by default you help those issues?

    I dont eat a lot of wheaty products, I dont eat a lot of bread and when I do I find my joints hurt and my IBS symptoms get worse.
  • noobootsnooboots Posts: 479Member Member Posts: 479Member Member
    1r1shayes wrote: »
    No, not true. I could never reverse my T2 diabetes without drastically cutting the carbs. I could only eat 500 calories a day, but if they were all carbs, I wouldn't lose weight. How do I know that? I tried for years. Diet after diet after diet. NONE of them addressed the underlying issue of why I gained weight in the first place: insulin resistance.

    Surely its not possible to only eat 500 cals a day and NOT lose weight, you must be a medical miracle.
  • GaleHawkinsGaleHawkins Posts: 7,623Member Member Posts: 7,623Member Member
    nooboots wrote: »
    ceiswyn wrote: »
    kimny72 wrote: »
    Low-Carb Diet Benefits People with Metabolic Syndrome Independent of Weight Loss
    Jun 24, 2019 by News Staff / Source

    sci-news.com/medicine/low-carb-diet-metabolic-syndrome-07315.html

    "A new study published in the Journal of Clinical Investigation Insight shows that metabolic syndrome — a cluster of factors that also put people at higher risk of heart disease and stroke — can be rapidly (within 4 weeks) reversed by a low-carb diet in the majority of people even if they don’t lose any weight....."
    1. Study had a whopping 16 participants.
    2. On LC, 9 of 16 no longer qualified as MetSyn after 4 weeks, after MC 3 of 16 no longer qualified, not exactly enough to consider definitive.
    3. I would love to see if this experiment were extended out to 6 months, would the results even out? In other words, does the LC diet just get these results faster?
    4. Considering the typical claims about keto, I found this blurb interesting: "They did not see statistically significant improvements in blood pressure or insulin resistance."
    5. Dr. Volek founded a company that sells a rather expensive private program that claims to treat and reverse T2D through keto. Just something to keep in mind. https://www.virtahealth.com/about/jeffvolek

    I can appreciate that this goes to the argument that benefits of low carb are attributable to weight loss, not the type of diet. This is a small, one off study, but point taken.

    Having said that, I doubt it's a good idea to stay obese but eat low carb to avoid some of the risk of Metabolic Syndrome. And if reaching a healthy weight anyway will reverse it regardless of how you eat, I'm not sure what the point is unless you enjoy eating that way. To me, what this study suggests is: if you are going to stay obese, you might be better off eating low carb. I don't think it asserts anything about the best way to lose weight, or the best way to eat if you are a healthy weight. Just my opinion, of course.

    Low carb is not for weight loss but to see if it will help resolve the health issues that lead to obesity initially since obesity does not seem to be a primary disease but a secondary disease due to some.

    The short n=16 study was only about reducing the known risk factors of heart disease which is a major cause of death in the USA.

    Below is some research on the impact of eating protein, fats and carbs on the gut microbiome that may be of interest to some reading on the subject. The quoted text typically is from the start of different section of the research paper that would be best to read fully in interested in the subject matter.

    Influence of diet on the gut microbiome and implications for human health

    https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5385025/

    "Protein
    The effects of dietary protein on the gut microbiota were first described in 1977."

    "Fats
    Consumption of high saturated and trans fat diets is thought to increase the risk of cardiovascular disease through upregulation of blood total- and LDL-cholesterol [43, 44]."

    "Carbohydrates
    Digestible carbohydrates (starch, sugars)
    Carbohydrates are possibly the most well studied dietary component for their ability to modify the gut microbiome (studies listed in Table 4)."

    "The artificial sweeteners saccharin, sucralose, and aspartame represent another dietary controversy. Artificial sweeteners were originally marketed as a health-conscious, no-calorie food option that could be used to replace natural sugar. Recent evidence from Suez et al. suggests that consumption of all types of artificial sweeteners is actually more likely to induce glucose intolerance than consumption of pure glucose and sucrose. Interestingly, artificial sweeteners are thought to mediate this effect through alteration of gut microbiota." The bold text is my doing for a special person that is struggling with this health risk.

    "Besides immunity, gut microorganisms have also been shown to impact host metabolic health. Individuals with metabolic disorders such as obesity and diabetes have been shown to have intestinal dysbiosis in relation to healthy individuals [148, 149]. Further characterization of the link between the gut microbiome and obesity has revealed several bacterial groups that may specifically contribute to the disease." Note: Bolding in this paragraph is to highlight that obesity primarily is a metabolic disorder that can cause obesity as a side effect of a primary health disorder. Truly healthy people or other animals do not become obese. Over eating is not a primary cause of obesity in a medical sense. Calories are units of energy. Macros are what that primarily leads to a positive or negative gut microbiome. The gut brain connection illustrates how what we want to put into our mouths can be influenced by one's own gut microbiome demands.

    Binging is one example of this. Totally healthy people do not binge eat from what I can read or my experience since Oct 2014 at the age of 63. If some have medical science links that prove my personal experiences of the past 5 years of eating Low Carb High Fat are not factual and or that this research report is not factual please post the links and we can debate from that point.

    Please do tell me what is wrong with me that causes my binge eating please. And indeed how it is that this thing has been wrong with me for the last forty years without any other apparent impact.

    Please share all of your n=1 studies over the last 40 years and their results if you want a MFP peer review in your case perhaps.

    In my case I had did not start my first n=1 where I left all types of sweeteners and all forms of all grains until Oct 2014 cold turkey successfully and made up my calorie loss with coconut oil. My only objective was to find a diet based solution to my 40 years of joint pain and IBS because the doctors has me scheduled to start Enbrel injections Nov 2014 that I thought would be the end of me in my weakened state of health at the age of 63.

    A couple weeks into LCHF my pain and cravings started to drop like a rock and both have been well managed by diet only for over 4 years. The unplanned weight loss started at the six week mark and now I have been down 50 pounds for 4 years eating all that I wanted so never going hungry. I do keep my carbs down to 50 grams daily because of my plant based fiber that is as low as I will go carb wise but have no daily calorie limits but I seldom eat over 3000 calories a day.

    In my case my binge eating desired stopped a couple weeks after I dropped my daily carbs down to 50 grams. I make no claims as to why my fuel gauge started back to working after being broken for 40 years. I expect in light of medical research my new Way Of Eating fixed my primary health issues that was causing my secondary obesity related issues since my health and lab exams became normal for the first time in 40 years.

    Just picking up on the IBS and joint pain, it might be that grains or wheat were simply the problem for you, rather than carbs per se. So when you cut out the grains/wheat whatever by default you help those issues?

    I dont eat a lot of wheaty products, I dont eat a lot of bread and when I do I find my joints hurt and my IBS symptoms get worse.

    That's a possibility.. I ate some modied food starch what ever that may be by accident this week and had IBS for 8 hours for the first time in 4.5 years.
  • LyndaBSSLyndaBSS Posts: 5,752Member, Premium Member Posts: 5,752Member, Premium Member
    So much great info in this thread. Thanks to all for sharing.
  • magnusthenerdmagnusthenerd Posts: 797Member Member Posts: 797Member Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    J72FIT wrote: »
    1r1shayes wrote: »
    No, not true. I could never reverse my T2 diabetes without drastically cutting the carbs. I could only eat 500 calories a day, but if they were all carbs, I wouldn't lose weight. How do I know that? I tried for years. Diet after diet after diet. NONE of them addressed the underlying issue of why I gained weight in the first place: insulin resistance.

    More than likely you gained weight before you became insulin resistant...

    I would say its difficult for either to make that assessment without blood work. People can develop IR even while lean. Things like genetics and even antibiotics can cause IR. Certainly inactivity and obesity drive a large propensity of cases but unless you know this posters medical history, i wouldn't make such statements.

    The evidence is that T2D and IR correlate significantly with obesity. Lean people developing real IR is rare, and if someone non obese (or even non overweight) develops it, there's usually an excessive fat issue (for example, Asians for whom the excess fat percentage/BMI is less than for other groups or people who are excess fat while normal BMI). It IS genetic, in large part, but the genetics seem to be how much excessive fat is necessary to trigger it, for some very little, for some a great deal or age is also necessary.

    The claim that IR comes first, weight gain is second still makes little sense. IR means it's harder to get cells to take in carbs, which includes storing them as fat. You are more likely to waste carbs without using them (or storing them).

    It absolutely does not allow someone to gain eating 500 (or slightly over) per day, as claimed. That is simply impossible.

    Again, IR goes up in tandem with obesity and overweight. For nearly everyone losing weight = fixing the problem. Cutting carbs cures the symptoms and may be an alternative approach, but it does not CURE or put IR in remission, as typically it actually decreases insulin sensitivity. What increases insulin sensitivity is weight loss and exercise.

    Yes, i understand IR and how it comes about. The point is to not make a judgement based on no data.

    When one is IR, there are higher rates of de novo lipogenesis will occur. But also when someone has IR and consumes carbs, there body will overproduce insulin which will prolong lipogenesis and minimize lipolysis. So greater periods of storage and minimized fat burning.


    There is very strong evidence that ketogenic diets and low carb can cause remission of IR symptoms even without weight loss. It just happens to make weight loss easier since your body functions better. I would think your over EE would increae, albeit, i haven't seen evidence specifically around that. But if a person generally feels better things like NEAT will generally improve.

    And no, she won't gain weight or prevent weight loss on 500 calories. Because at the level you have to suppress carbs to get there. But also what happens when people over suppress calories, is binging which will then drive higher fat storage.

    IR actually seems to be good for fat loss, not preventing it. The excess calories that tend to lead to IR are the problem. One of the ways clen may work is it actually induces a slight amount of IR.
    I'm not sure about de novo lipogensis going up, but if it did, that would also help, not hurt in terms of making weight loss. De novo lipogensis is a pathway of last resort in part because of the energy cost - you can't chain sugars together to create a fatty acid without using energy. Studies in pig overfeeding suggest a 20 to 25% cost: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4421107/
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