Very slow metabolism (clinically tested)
Replies
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bosque1234 wrote: »Run, don't walk to an endocrinologist and get a COMPLETE blood work up on your thyroid and pituitary gland's functions. Start with this as a medical condition, not a weight loss issue. Don't even focus on calories to solve this, you need to see a good endo and after that, and possible medication to regulate your thyroid, then consider MFP again. Well wishes on this journey!
Careful there. Being hypothyroid reduced energy needs by a max of 4-5%, once. There's also some research that suggests that various health conditions, and extreme dieting might result in a lowering of energy needs of a similar amount if we don't take reduction of energy needs due to less body mass into account. I've not found any data on whether reduction can be reversed, or stacks up at subsequent events. But to me it doesn't seem logical as our bodies need a certain amount of energy for survival. Once you got this reduction there might not be more as the body. Actually, I saw some study on energy expenditure of just running all organs including chemical reactions, etc.. and it was very close to 1200kcal/day. Ask yourself why the human body would endanger it's survival by reducing energy expenditure.
With regards to thyroid: lots of the weightgain is actually due to feeling miserable and moving less, fidgetting less, being more tired. This all results in a reduction of energy needs, but not from BMR, but from TDEE. Also, increase in water weight gain, and more hunger.
Read the study I referenced above - you can recover - and it can lower more than merely the loss of body mass.
Body has many functions as part of the BMR (replacing proteins - so growing of hair, nails, skin, rebuilding of muscle, ect) that can be done less frequently if less food available.
The organ usage is mainly true - though some of the biggest calorie burners can slow down in their activities - liver.
But ditto's to the potential 4-5% reduction in RMR not being a given.
As I have talked about above, the largest chuck of TDEE loss is NEAT. Generally though Skeletal Muscle Adaptation. Resistance training seems to help mitigate SOME of it.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/302600993 -
Regardless of how and how fast this may resolve after removing the deficit, the question about being on a diet (and length and extent of deficit) before the depressed measurement was taken, was because it has been seen in at least a few studies that adaptive thermogenesis (AT) can include a lowered RMR/BMR beyond what is explained by weight lost and this can sometimes happen quite fast (days not weeks)
So if the op is sensitive to AT and was at a steep deficit on the day the measurement was taken this can explain it.
Regardless, it doesn't change much and it doesn't make the task impossible.
The op probably needs to consider strategies to increase NEAT and should realize that 2lbs a week is not magical and that effective change can take place with a perfectly adequate 1lb per week persistently applied deficit that, as a bonus, will also have them eating closer to their eventual maintenance pattern!!!8 -
psychod787 wrote: »bosque1234 wrote: »Run, don't walk to an endocrinologist and get a COMPLETE blood work up on your thyroid and pituitary gland's functions. Start with this as a medical condition, not a weight loss issue. Don't even focus on calories to solve this, you need to see a good endo and after that, and possible medication to regulate your thyroid, then consider MFP again. Well wishes on this journey!
Careful there. Being hypothyroid reduced energy needs by a max of 4-5%, once. There's also some research that suggests that various health conditions, and extreme dieting might result in a lowering of energy needs of a similar amount if we don't take reduction of energy needs due to less body mass into account. I've not found any data on whether reduction can be reversed, or stacks up at subsequent events. But to me it doesn't seem logical as our bodies need a certain amount of energy for survival. Once you got this reduction there might not be more as the body. Actually, I saw some study on energy expenditure of just running all organs including chemical reactions, etc.. and it was very close to 1200kcal/day. Ask yourself why the human body would endanger it's survival by reducing energy expenditure.
With regards to thyroid: lots of the weightgain is actually due to feeling miserable and moving less, fidgetting less, being more tired. This all results in a reduction of energy needs, but not from BMR, but from TDEE. Also, increase in water weight gain, and more hunger.
Read the study I referenced above - you can recover - and it can lower more than merely the loss of body mass.
Body has many functions as part of the BMR (replacing proteins - so growing of hair, nails, skin, rebuilding of muscle, ect) that can be done less frequently if less food available.
The organ usage is mainly true - though some of the biggest calorie burners can slow down in their activities - liver.
But ditto's to the potential 4-5% reduction in RMR not being a given.
As I have talked about above, the largest chuck of TDEE loss is NEAT. Generally though Skeletal Muscle Adaptation. Resistance training seems to help mitigate SOME of it.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30260099
One of the things I find very interesting about the research Heybales posted about is that the CR+EX arm of the study was doing cardio exercise. Sure, one study only . . . but interesting.1 -
Thank you, all, for your insight.
I’m making a 1200 goal and increasing activity and water - fingers crossed!
(Also a food scale is headed my way from Amazon!)
Also, the person who did the testing advised me to integrate additional strength & resistance training in hopes that my metabolism will perk up a bit.22 -
joeymattluke wrote: »Thank you, all, for your insight.
I’m making a 1200 goal and increasing activity and water - fingers crossed!
(Also a good scale is headed my way from Amazon!)
Yay :drinker:2 -
psychod787 wrote: »bosque1234 wrote: »Run, don't walk to an endocrinologist and get a COMPLETE blood work up on your thyroid and pituitary gland's functions. Start with this as a medical condition, not a weight loss issue. Don't even focus on calories to solve this, you need to see a good endo and after that, and possible medication to regulate your thyroid, then consider MFP again. Well wishes on this journey!
Careful there. Being hypothyroid reduced energy needs by a max of 4-5%, once. There's also some research that suggests that various health conditions, and extreme dieting might result in a lowering of energy needs of a similar amount if we don't take reduction of energy needs due to less body mass into account. I've not found any data on whether reduction can be reversed, or stacks up at subsequent events. But to me it doesn't seem logical as our bodies need a certain amount of energy for survival. Once you got this reduction there might not be more as the body. Actually, I saw some study on energy expenditure of just running all organs including chemical reactions, etc.. and it was very close to 1200kcal/day. Ask yourself why the human body would endanger it's survival by reducing energy expenditure.
With regards to thyroid: lots of the weightgain is actually due to feeling miserable and moving less, fidgetting less, being more tired. This all results in a reduction of energy needs, but not from BMR, but from TDEE. Also, increase in water weight gain, and more hunger.
Read the study I referenced above - you can recover - and it can lower more than merely the loss of body mass.
Body has many functions as part of the BMR (replacing proteins - so growing of hair, nails, skin, rebuilding of muscle, ect) that can be done less frequently if less food available.
The organ usage is mainly true - though some of the biggest calorie burners can slow down in their activities - liver.
But ditto's to the potential 4-5% reduction in RMR not being a given.
As I have talked about above, the largest chuck of TDEE loss is NEAT. Generally though Skeletal Muscle Adaptation. Resistance training seems to help mitigate SOME of it.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30260099
And moving less, but great study to show yet again - possible to mitigate it.
Well - besides just being reasonable in the first place - not everyone gets to be in a study measured out the wahzoo to help prevent these side effects.
Like that other study showed:
At month 3, avg Calorie Restrict and Low-Calorie Diet had significant drops in Physical Activity Ratio (TDEE/BMR) below what would have been expected for their current LBM and FM, by CR 350 and LCD 497, with CR-Exercise group having none. At month 6, CR 215 and LCD 241, so again some recovery.
So the NEAT part of their day decreased as expected because of lower weight, but even more than expected because of less movement, resulting in lowered TDEE figures.2 -
joeymattluke wrote: »Thank you, all, for your insight.
I’m making a 1200 goal and increasing activity and water - fingers crossed!
(Also a food scale is headed my way from Amazon!)
Also, the person who did the testing advised me to integrate additional strength & resistance training in hopes that my metabolism will perk up a bit.
Yay! Patience and a food scale, and I'm sure you'll succeed
4 -
joeymattluke wrote: »Thank you all for your insight and advice. I truly appreciate it. I’m really at a place where other perspective is helpful (mostly). The nutritionist and I have only had 1 meeting and 1 phone call since results from the RMR. I have consulted my dr numerous times, ending with me in tears because she just wants to hand over anti depressants rather than help me problem solve. I feel there is something underlying, hence me asking for endocrinologist referral. The thyroid numbers being “normal” has been frustrating because of everything I read that says normal is not necessarily normal but getting a doctor to help is hard when all she wants to look at is the lab result only.
Honestly- I’m not looking for someone to baby me, or to act like I’m an “air fern”, just looking for advice from more experienced people. I posted for help, so thank you to those who had advice and wisdom.
😎
If you don't mind my asking, what is your lab/doctor saying is "normal?" While "normal" TSH (Thyroid Stimulating Hormone) used to be .05-5, the upper limit has been dropped to a 3 by the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists. Many doctors offices/labs are still using different standards. Always get the number, not just the judgement about the number. And there's a normal range for a reason. Maybe to alleviate symptoms you need to be at a different point in the range. Also, TSH is not the complete picture. (Free) T4 and (Free) T3 play a role. The body typically converts T4 to T3, but mine does not, and I have hypothyroidism and supplement both a T4 and T3. Being "normal" does not mean symptom free. There is something to be said for quality of life. Which you deserve.
Hang in there!7 -
joeymattluke wrote: »@texasredreb -
I’m a new user / poster. I haven’t been able to figure out how to reply to individual posts- so my ignorance in technology is my issue, not me replying to only the advice I like. I’m replying at the bottom of the thread I see, simply put. So I don’t mean to sound unappreciative or input, i am literally trying to figure out how it all works.
I’m pretty sure I have admitted how the low calorie number was contrived and it’s been helpful to have such gracious people explain it to me.
My sincere frustration has prompted my tests and reaching out for help. Sorry if it comes off as anything other than curious and seeking advice. I’m not a medical abnormality, I’m confused and seeking help. I’m appreciative of ideas and suggestions, and felt I relayed that in some of my replies, even if they didn’t show up to a specific question since I haven’t quite figured that out yet.
Hi OP
It’s so confusing dipping into the weight loss world. There’s so many views and theories (adverts) thrown at us from so many angles - food companies, food retail companies, diet book companies, diet support companies etc. All of them only focus on one loss - the money from your pocket.
And then there’s part-time-Janice-in-work who lost a stone doing keto/cabbage soup/paleo/fat melting tea/diet pills etc. It can be a lifelong cycle of bouncing from one to the next in the hope that the miracle can happen for us too.
If all that wasn’t bad enough we have our own coping mechanisms that seem to make perfect sense in this mad world. At one time or another I genuinely believed a) my body had found its own natural weight, b) there had to be a medical reason why I couldn’t lose weight when I ‘hardly ate a thing’, c) I didn’t mind being morbidly obese.
And now you’re here hearing yet more weight loss theory. The difference is here no-ones being paid to hustle you, sign you up, con you or sell you a get thin quick deal of the decade.
There is no gimmick to losing weight. It’s a main of physics, with a side of biology. It works and it’s free. Forget everything you’ve ever heard at WW weigh in’s. You do need to log what you eat but you don’t have to pay a company to tell you what the special code is for each food. MFP is free as is the fab advice and guidance in these forums. A smartphone or tablet is great for scanning bar codes but calories can still be counted without the scanner. As long as you eat less calories than you burn you’ll lose weight. The guys here have helped you figure out how many calories to aim for.
Use a food scale, log and be honest with yourself and it’ll happen. No food is bad but you won’t use a days calories on chocolate, not more than the once anyway.
Good luck and once you have a fair idea what you’re doing, the forums will make a massive difference. And you’ll find that you understand a lot of it already.5 -
psychod787 wrote: »bosque1234 wrote: »Run, don't walk to an endocrinologist and get a COMPLETE blood work up on your thyroid and pituitary gland's functions. Start with this as a medical condition, not a weight loss issue. Don't even focus on calories to solve this, you need to see a good endo and after that, and possible medication to regulate your thyroid, then consider MFP again. Well wishes on this journey!
Careful there. Being hypothyroid reduced energy needs by a max of 4-5%, once. There's also some research that suggests that various health conditions, and extreme dieting might result in a lowering of energy needs of a similar amount if we don't take reduction of energy needs due to less body mass into account. I've not found any data on whether reduction can be reversed, or stacks up at subsequent events. But to me it doesn't seem logical as our bodies need a certain amount of energy for survival. Once you got this reduction there might not be more as the body. Actually, I saw some study on energy expenditure of just running all organs including chemical reactions, etc.. and it was very close to 1200kcal/day. Ask yourself why the human body would endanger it's survival by reducing energy expenditure.
With regards to thyroid: lots of the weightgain is actually due to feeling miserable and moving less, fidgetting less, being more tired. This all results in a reduction of energy needs, but not from BMR, but from TDEE. Also, increase in water weight gain, and more hunger.
Read the study I referenced above - you can recover - and it can lower more than merely the loss of body mass.
Body has many functions as part of the BMR (replacing proteins - so growing of hair, nails, skin, rebuilding of muscle, ect) that can be done less frequently if less food available.
The organ usage is mainly true - though some of the biggest calorie burners can slow down in their activities - liver.
But ditto's to the potential 4-5% reduction in RMR not being a given.
As I have talked about above, the largest chuck of TDEE loss is NEAT. Generally though Skeletal Muscle Adaptation. Resistance training seems to help mitigate SOME of it.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30260099
One of the things I find very interesting about the research Heybales posted about is that the CR+EX arm of the study was doing cardio exercise. Sure, one study only . . . but interesting.
@AnnPT77 . I think this might be an outlier study, because I have seen others that show no difference in rmr post weight loss with exercise/activity and none at all.0 -
joeymattluke wrote: »Thank you all for your insight and advice. I truly appreciate it. I’m really at a place where other perspective is helpful (mostly). The nutritionist and I have only had 1 meeting and 1 phone call since results from the RMR. I have consulted my dr numerous times, ending with me in tears because she just wants to hand over anti depressants rather than help me problem solve. I feel there is something underlying, hence me asking for endocrinologist referral. The thyroid numbers being “normal” has been frustrating because of everything I read that says normal is not necessarily normal but getting a doctor to help is hard when all she wants to look at is the lab result only.
Honestly- I’m not looking for someone to baby me, or to act like I’m an “air fern”, just looking for advice from more experienced people. I posted for help, so thank you to those who had advice and wisdom.
😎
If you don't mind my asking, what is your lab/doctor saying is "normal?" While "normal" TSH (Thyroid Stimulating Hormone) used to be .05-5, the upper limit has been dropped to a 3 by the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists. Many doctors offices/labs are still using different standards. Always get the number, not just the judgement about the number. And there's a normal range for a reason. Maybe to alleviate symptoms you need to be at a different point in the range. Also, TSH is not the complete picture. (Free) T4 and (Free) T3 play a role. The body typically converts T4 to T3, but mine does not, and I have hypothyroidism and supplement both a T4 and T3. Being "normal" does not mean symptom free. There is something to be said for quality of life. Which you deserve.
Hang in there!
May I as? Was your t3 conversation issue pre or post weightloss?0 -
@psychod787 - I’ve been questioning my thyroid for years and I pushed for a dietician / endocrinologist referral. It keeps fluctuating and I have a family history of Hashimoto and sojourns and I would like to get it in control now if there is an issue. I have a lot of the other signs as well... but when my family dr says “normal” she just refuses to do more.2
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joeymattluke wrote: »@psychod787 - I’ve been questioning my thyroid for years and I pushed for a dietician / endocrinologist referral. It keeps fluctuating and I have a family history of Hashimoto and sojourns and I would like to get it in control now if there is an issue. I have a lot of the other signs as well... but when my family dr says “normal” she just refuses to do more.
It is probably time to find a new family doctor.8 -
joeymattluke wrote: »@psychod787 - I’ve been questioning my thyroid for years and I pushed for a dietician / endocrinologist referral. It keeps fluctuating and I have a family history of Hashimoto and sojourns and I would like to get it in control now if there is an issue. I have a lot of the other signs as well... but when my family dr says “normal” she just refuses to do more.
A friend of mine has had trouble with doctors ordering tests when she's had obvious issues. A friend of hers told her that the next time a dr doesn't want to investigate an issue to insist that the dr note in the patient file that they refused to order tests/do follow-ups, and that usually got them to do what they're supposed to. It's *kitten* that pushing has to be done to get a dr to do their job, but whatever works. Finding another doctor can often be really hard depending on where you live and who's available/taking patients, so maybe insisting that they note that they're the ones refusing to treat a patient issue will get their butt moving.8 -
joeymattluke wrote: »@psychod787 - I’ve been questioning my thyroid for years and I pushed for a dietician / endocrinologist referral. It keeps fluctuating and I have a family history of Hashimoto and sojourns and I would like to get it in control now if there is an issue. I have a lot of the other signs as well... but when my family dr says “normal” she just refuses to do more.
I once had a doctor who told me my neurological issues were age-related. I was in my early 30s. I got another doctor and it turned out the building I worked in had toxic mold and two other people had gotten seriously ill as well.7 -
joeymattluke wrote: »@psychod787 - I’ve been questioning my thyroid for years and I pushed for a dietician / endocrinologist referral. It keeps fluctuating and I have a family history of Hashimoto and sojourns and I would like to get it in control now if there is an issue. I have a lot of the other signs as well... but when my family dr says “normal” she just refuses to do more.
Find a new physician. Having a solid honest conversation with a trusted medical professional is critical.
Is this just based on TSH or was a full thyroid panel conducted?
Testing hormones is a tricky business as these are free cycling through the body, so multiple readings are needed over time for a proper analysis. As these are free cycling you'll find that results will be outside optimal ranges due to weight fluctuations. One cannot maintain hormonal balance and be overweight - this creates a massive strain on the endocrine system as it attempts to push out hormones intended for a healthy BMI, but now has to work whatever percent harder to keep up.4 -
joeymattluke wrote: »@psychod787 - I’ve been questioning my thyroid for years and I pushed for a dietician / endocrinologist referral. It keeps fluctuating and I have a family history of Hashimoto and sojourns and I would like to get it in control now if there is an issue. I have a lot of the other signs as well... but when my family dr says “normal” she just refuses to do more.
Find a new physician. Having a solid honest conversation with a trusted medical professional is critical.
Is this just based on TSH or was a full thyroid panel conducted?
Testing hormones is a tricky business as these are free cycling through the body, so multiple readings are needed over time for a proper analysis. As these are free cycling you'll find that results will be outside optimal ranges due to weight fluctuations. One cannot maintain hormonal balance and be overweight - this creates a massive strain on the endocrine system as it attempts to push out hormones intended for a healthy BMI, but now has to work whatever percent harder to keep up.
Well, the reason I asked about the t3 conversation is, there are some study's that show t3 conversation drops after weight loss. Aka... controls starvation.0 -
psychod787 wrote: »joeymattluke wrote: »@psychod787 - I’ve been questioning my thyroid for years and I pushed for a dietician / endocrinologist referral. It keeps fluctuating and I have a family history of Hashimoto and sojourns and I would like to get it in control now if there is an issue. I have a lot of the other signs as well... but when my family dr says “normal” she just refuses to do more.
Find a new physician. Having a solid honest conversation with a trusted medical professional is critical.
Is this just based on TSH or was a full thyroid panel conducted?
Testing hormones is a tricky business as these are free cycling through the body, so multiple readings are needed over time for a proper analysis. As these are free cycling you'll find that results will be outside optimal ranges due to weight fluctuations. One cannot maintain hormonal balance and be overweight - this creates a massive strain on the endocrine system as it attempts to push out hormones intended for a healthy BMI, but now has to work whatever percent harder to keep up.
Well, the reason I asked about the t3 conversation is, there are some study's that show t3 conversation drops after weight loss. Aka... controls starvation.
T3 should rise and fall proportional to mass. Chronic inflammation (caused by obesity) has a dramatic impact of T4 to T3 conversion, which will rarely be detected by one test or by anyone other than an endocrine specialist.
For a proper analysis you would have to review the full thyroid panel - TSH, T4, T3, rT3 and several data points over time.4
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