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  • PsychgrrlPsychgrrl Member Posts: 3,148 Member Member Posts: 3,148 Member
    I'll give a report on Italy. We're moving along with vaccinations. Doing 65+ now and I'm in that group, so last day of May is my appointment for 1st dose--Pfizer. Husband lucked out and is all done (slipped into a cancellation slot).

    Our problem is: vaccines ordered are not arriving as promised. AZ is especially the culprit, and the UE is cancelling future contracts with them. Pfizer arrivals are slow too and it was announced that instead of receiving the 2nd dose 2 weeks after it will be extended to 40 days. Sigh, that'll effect me. Better half than nothing.

    COVID is slowing here. As the days get longer there are fewer infections and rules are being loosened. For now bars and restaurants have to have tables outside and everything must close at 9:30pm and everyone must go home. Soon this will be moved to 11:00pm, and people will be seated inside again. Masks and distancing are still required. Schools are open, as are museums. Soon theaters, cinemas, gyms, and pools etc. will open with caution. We now have a 3.5% transmission rate. Deaths are way down. So, things are looking up.

    I've kept up with my exercising since October--stretching and yoga at home, and powerwalking, running for 45 min every morning around the park. I think we've missed 5 days, for rain, in 7 and a half months. However, I miss the pool. I can't wait until it opens, and I can get back in the gym for some strength training.

    I just got a message from the health dept. My 1st dose of Pfizer is confirmed for May 29th. The 2nd dose has been pushed back to July 3rd. I was expecting it, but I'm just so disappointed now that it's happened. I'd like to tell them to shove it.

    Chances are good you will be protected after the first dose - 80% of people are.

    The difference in immunity between the first and second doses has been repeatedly misrepresented by the press and others, including Dr. Fauci, who should know better. There’s no evidence for “partial immunity” after the first dose - that isn’t what any study has tested for. Studies group people into statistics, but individual people are not to be confused with statistics. About 80% of people have an immune response after the first dose. About one in 10, especially people in treatment for cancer, don’t until after the second dose. Some, depending on which vax about 1 in 10, will never develop immunity from the vaccine.

    That’s the reasoning behind the U.K. delaying second doses and getting a first dose into as many people as possible, and it has worked. It’s simple math. You have 20 doses, and 20 people. If you give one dose to everybody, you end up with 16 immune. If you give two doses to half the people, you end up with 9 immune. In the short term, it’s better to have 16 than nine, and wait until you can give the second dose to all 20 - at which time you will pick up an additional two people, and have 18 immune.

    this is VERY interesting! do you have any good links that explain this (going to look myself, but thought I'd ask in case you have anything)?

    here in Ontario they just cancelled all public events through September (we are currently not allowed to leave our houses - a stay at home order that they extend every two weeks and are expected to continue to do so through the summer) with the message that the majority only have one shot so we are not protected until the fall. if this is true, it could change everything - yet hasn't once been mentioned my the news or "health experts" which is interesting.

    Sorry about the new lock down. :( My friend in Da Nang (Vietnam) said they just went back into another one and it is expected to go on for months.

    Here are some links about the protection after the firs dose.
  • 33gail3333gail33 Member Posts: 781 Member Member Posts: 781 Member
    PAV8888 wrote: »
    33gail33 wrote: »
    I honestly don't understand it then. We have no domestic production at all, and were late getting vaccines, and Ontario (my province) has 50% of adults vaccinated with first dose. Not sure why Europe is behind except maybe because we only have 37 million people here in Canada so the amount we need is just a drop in the bucket comparatively?
    I mean I heard a doctor from our vaccine advisory committee on the radio last week saying there is no need to take the minute risk of Astra Zeneca because we are "swimming" in mRNA vaccines. So idk.

    I have noticed that Justin is not actively supporting the strip intellectual property protection from vaccines movement while simultaneously Pfiser is delivering on time and above (comparative) expectations.

    Also, I would be curious as to what prices each country is paying on a per dose and other considerations basis. And wonder whether there is any random correlation between that and our current delivery rates.

    Please note that many friends in Europe do not seem to understand our "first dose in now and delay the second dose" strategy and consider us to be un-vaccinated as the narrative in (at the very least Greece) seems to be that you need both doses to be considered vaccinated. Unlike the narrative here where (many of us) consider ourselves to be vaccinated even though instead of getting a two week appointment for our second dose we've been told: by end of August, maybe sooner.

    I got my first dose early so my second is due end of June. Data coming out now is making it look like the delayed dose strategy was the right thing to do, giving the second dose later might even boost protection. I know there was a lot of complaining about us being guinea pigs for it, but when you actually looked at the clinical trials and just vaccine science in general there was a good basis for doing it, but the real proof should be in results that we will be seeing the next few weeks.

    Maybe Justin did make a backroom deal - but tbh I am not really sure I am onboard with the stripping the intellectual property protections anyway. It makes me wonder about what incentive a company would have to step up with another new vaccine or drug if (when?) we find ourselves in the midst of another pandemic. Couldn't they just license out the rights for others to produce it while maintaining ownership of it? I'm not really sure how the legalities of that works.
  • hiparihipari Member, Premium Posts: 1,235 Member Member, Premium Posts: 1,235 Member
    33gail33 wrote: »
    PAV8888 wrote: »
    33gail33 wrote: »
    I honestly don't understand it then. We have no domestic production at all, and were late getting vaccines, and Ontario (my province) has 50% of adults vaccinated with first dose. Not sure why Europe is behind except maybe because we only have 37 million people here in Canada so the amount we need is just a drop in the bucket comparatively?
    I mean I heard a doctor from our vaccine advisory committee on the radio last week saying there is no need to take the minute risk of Astra Zeneca because we are "swimming" in mRNA vaccines. So idk.

    I have noticed that Justin is not actively supporting the strip intellectual property protection from vaccines movement while simultaneously Pfiser is delivering on time and above (comparative) expectations.

    Also, I would be curious as to what prices each country is paying on a per dose and other considerations basis. And wonder whether there is any random correlation between that and our current delivery rates.

    Please note that many friends in Europe do not seem to understand our "first dose in now and delay the second dose" strategy and consider us to be un-vaccinated as the narrative in (at the very least Greece) seems to be that you need both doses to be considered vaccinated. Unlike the narrative here where (many of us) consider ourselves to be vaccinated even though instead of getting a two week appointment for our second dose we've been told: by end of August, maybe sooner.

    I got my first dose early so my second is due end of June. Data coming out now is making it look like the delayed dose strategy was the right thing to do, giving the second dose later might even boost protection. I know there was a lot of complaining about us being guinea pigs for it, but when you actually looked at the clinical trials and just vaccine science in general there was a good basis for doing it, but the real proof should be in results that we will be seeing the next few weeks.

    Maybe Justin did make a backroom deal - but tbh I am not really sure I am onboard with the stripping the intellectual property protections anyway. It makes me wonder about what incentive a company would have to step up with another new vaccine or drug if (when?) we find ourselves in the midst of another pandemic. Couldn't they just license out the rights for others to produce it while maintaining ownership of it? I'm not really sure how the legalities of that works.

    The property rights of medical development are very murky issues. I’m by no means specialized in them, but to add some thoughts here: it’s widely thought that companies do have (or should have) some social responsibility, especially in global crisis like this one. From what I understand, many of the developed vaccines also received significant research funding from public budgets, which makes it seem unfair to many that the costs are covered (partly) by the public but the winnings are kept fully by those private companies.

    Then there’s also the issue that this is, in fact, a global pandemic, and nobody is really safe until the whole world is safe since new variations keep developing wherever the virus spreads freely. We’ve just seen an example of this, with the ”western world” (Europe and northern America) getting largely vaccinated and infection numbers starting to go down, but the situation in India is really bad and there’s a dangerous new variant spreading all over the world that originated there. If even one of these new variants that pop up because of lack of medicine and sanitation can avoid the immunity given by the vaccine and starts spreading globally, we’re back to square one. This is also why the UN and WHO were calling for a global distribution of vaccines based on population instead of money - the poor, densely populated countries also have less medical care available, less social security that makes it possible for people to go on lockdown without starving, less mask and sanitation availability etc., making these areas potential hotbeds for mass infections, mass death, and new variants. The argument sometimes made about the vaccine property rights related to this is that it’s the governments’ own interest to strip IPR protections to enable quick global vaccination so these variants leading back to square one can be avoided.
  • 33gail3333gail33 Member Posts: 781 Member Member Posts: 781 Member
    hipari wrote: »
    33gail33 wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    33gail33 wrote: »
    PAV8888 wrote: »
    33gail33 wrote: »
    I honestly don't understand it then. We have no domestic production at all, and were late getting vaccines, and Ontario (my province) has 50% of adults vaccinated with first dose. Not sure why Europe is behind except maybe because we only have 37 million people here in Canada so the amount we need is just a drop in the bucket comparatively?
    I mean I heard a doctor from our vaccine advisory committee on the radio last week saying there is no need to take the minute risk of Astra Zeneca because we are "swimming" in mRNA vaccines. So idk.

    I have noticed that Justin is not actively supporting the strip intellectual property protection from vaccines movement while simultaneously Pfiser is delivering on time and above (comparative) expectations.

    Also, I would be curious as to what prices each country is paying on a per dose and other considerations basis. And wonder whether there is any random correlation between that and our current delivery rates.

    Please note that many friends in Europe do not seem to understand our "first dose in now and delay the second dose" strategy and consider us to be un-vaccinated as the narrative in (at the very least Greece) seems to be that you need both doses to be considered vaccinated. Unlike the narrative here where (many of us) consider ourselves to be vaccinated even though instead of getting a two week appointment for our second dose we've been told: by end of August, maybe sooner.

    I got my first dose early so my second is due end of June. Data coming out now is making it look like the delayed dose strategy was the right thing to do, giving the second dose later might even boost protection. I know there was a lot of complaining about us being guinea pigs for it, but when you actually looked at the clinical trials and just vaccine science in general there was a good basis for doing it, but the real proof should be in results that we will be seeing the next few weeks.

    Maybe Justin did make a backroom deal - but tbh I am not really sure I am onboard with the stripping the intellectual property protections anyway. It makes me wonder about what incentive a company would have to step up with another new vaccine or drug if (when?) we find ourselves in the midst of another pandemic. Couldn't they just license out the rights for others to produce it while maintaining ownership of it? I'm not really sure how the legalities of that works.

    The property rights of medical development are very murky issues. I’m by no means specialized in them, but to add some thoughts here: it’s widely thought that companies do have (or should have) some social responsibility, especially in global crisis like this one. From what I understand, many of the developed vaccines also received significant research funding from public budgets, which makes it seem unfair to many that the costs are covered (partly) by the public but the winnings are kept fully by those private companies.

    Then there’s also the issue that this is, in fact, a global pandemic, and nobody is really safe until the whole world is safe since new variations keep developing wherever the virus spreads freely. We’ve just seen an example of this, with the ”western world” (Europe and northern America) getting largely vaccinated and infection numbers starting to go down, but the situation in India is really bad and there’s a dangerous new variant spreading all over the world that originated there. If even one of these new variants that pop up because of lack of medicine and sanitation can avoid the immunity given by the vaccine and starts spreading globally, we’re back to square one. This is also why the UN and WHO were calling for a global distribution of vaccines based on population instead of money - the poor, densely populated countries also have less medical care available, less social security that makes it possible for people to go on lockdown without starving, less mask and sanitation availability etc., making these areas potential hotbeds for mass infections, mass death, and new variants. The argument sometimes made about the vaccine property rights related to this is that it’s the governments’ own interest to strip IPR protections to enable quick global vaccination so these variants leading back to square one can be avoided.

    Yes I am aware of all of this and honestly I thought by now you would know that I am not an idiot and understand the issues surrounding the pandemic and the urgency involved.
    What I fully admit that I don't understand are the implications of retroactively stripping a company of their intellectual property protection, and what impact that could have on future research and development partnerships. Which I why I said I am not sure whether I support it or not.

    Definitely didn’t intend to imply you were that ignorant or dumb. I’ve been enjoying our exchanges here, despite the occasional disagreement. My only intention was to give general background to the arguments made later in the paragraph. Not directed at you, despite being a response to the IPR discussion you started.

    In other news, my city opened vaccine appointment booking for the next age group. Only one more age group before it’s my husband’s turn!

    Ok thanks you quoted me so I wasn't sure if it was directed at me.

    We opened up to everyone 18 and over today - we had a slow roll out but it ramped up quickly once the vaccines started coming in regularly.
    I almost feel like with what I am reading here we must be getting all the Pfizer doses or something, we are getting 2 million delivered this week (our population is almost 15 million and we are about 50% first shot now), and that is why they have opened up to everyone now.
    My middle son (28) will be vaccinated today and that will be 5 for 5 in my family - youngest being my 27 year old daughter last week. Hope your husband's turn comes up soon.
  • 33gail3333gail33 Member Posts: 781 Member Member Posts: 781 Member
    ythannah wrote: »
    33gail33 wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    33gail33 wrote: »
    hipari wrote: »
    33gail33 wrote: »
    PAV8888 wrote: »
    33gail33 wrote: »
    I honestly don't understand it then. We have no domestic production at all, and were late getting vaccines, and Ontario (my province) has 50% of adults vaccinated with first dose. Not sure why Europe is behind except maybe because we only have 37 million people here in Canada so the amount we need is just a drop in the bucket comparatively?
    I mean I heard a doctor from our vaccine advisory committee on the radio last week saying there is no need to take the minute risk of Astra Zeneca because we are "swimming" in mRNA vaccines. So idk.

    I have noticed that Justin is not actively supporting the strip intellectual property protection from vaccines movement while simultaneously Pfiser is delivering on time and above (comparative) expectations.

    Also, I would be curious as to what prices each country is paying on a per dose and other considerations basis. And wonder whether there is any random correlation between that and our current delivery rates.

    Please note that many friends in Europe do not seem to understand our "first dose in now and delay the second dose" strategy and consider us to be un-vaccinated as the narrative in (at the very least Greece) seems to be that you need both doses to be considered vaccinated. Unlike the narrative here where (many of us) consider ourselves to be vaccinated even though instead of getting a two week appointment for our second dose we've been told: by end of August, maybe sooner.

    I got my first dose early so my second is due end of June. Data coming out now is making it look like the delayed dose strategy was the right thing to do, giving the second dose later might even boost protection. I know there was a lot of complaining about us being guinea pigs for it, but when you actually looked at the clinical trials and just vaccine science in general there was a good basis for doing it, but the real proof should be in results that we will be seeing the next few weeks.

    Maybe Justin did make a backroom deal - but tbh I am not really sure I am onboard with the stripping the intellectual property protections anyway. It makes me wonder about what incentive a company would have to step up with another new vaccine or drug if (when?) we find ourselves in the midst of another pandemic. Couldn't they just license out the rights for others to produce it while maintaining ownership of it? I'm not really sure how the legalities of that works.

    The property rights of medical development are very murky issues. I’m by no means specialized in them, but to add some thoughts here: it’s widely thought that companies do have (or should have) some social responsibility, especially in global crisis like this one. From what I understand, many of the developed vaccines also received significant research funding from public budgets, which makes it seem unfair to many that the costs are covered (partly) by the public but the winnings are kept fully by those private companies.

    Then there’s also the issue that this is, in fact, a global pandemic, and nobody is really safe until the whole world is safe since new variations keep developing wherever the virus spreads freely. We’ve just seen an example of this, with the ”western world” (Europe and northern America) getting largely vaccinated and infection numbers starting to go down, but the situation in India is really bad and there’s a dangerous new variant spreading all over the world that originated there. If even one of these new variants that pop up because of lack of medicine and sanitation can avoid the immunity given by the vaccine and starts spreading globally, we’re back to square one. This is also why the UN and WHO were calling for a global distribution of vaccines based on population instead of money - the poor, densely populated countries also have less medical care available, less social security that makes it possible for people to go on lockdown without starving, less mask and sanitation availability etc., making these areas potential hotbeds for mass infections, mass death, and new variants. The argument sometimes made about the vaccine property rights related to this is that it’s the governments’ own interest to strip IPR protections to enable quick global vaccination so these variants leading back to square one can be avoided.

    Yes I am aware of all of this and honestly I thought by now you would know that I am not an idiot and understand the issues surrounding the pandemic and the urgency involved.
    What I fully admit that I don't understand are the implications of retroactively stripping a company of their intellectual property protection, and what impact that could have on future research and development partnerships. Which I why I said I am not sure whether I support it or not.

    Definitely didn’t intend to imply you were that ignorant or dumb. I’ve been enjoying our exchanges here, despite the occasional disagreement. My only intention was to give general background to the arguments made later in the paragraph. Not directed at you, despite being a response to the IPR discussion you started.

    In other news, my city opened vaccine appointment booking for the next age group. Only one more age group before it’s my husband’s turn!

    Ok thanks you quoted me so I wasn't sure if it was directed at me.

    We opened up to everyone 18 and over today - we had a slow roll out but it ramped up quickly once the vaccines started coming in regularly.
    I almost feel like with what I am reading here we must be getting all the Pfizer doses or something, we are getting 2 million delivered this week (our population is almost 15 million and we are about 50% first shot now), and that is why they have opened up to everyone now.
    My middle son (28) will be vaccinated today and that will be 5 for 5 in my family - youngest being my 27 year old daughter last week. Hope your husband's turn comes up soon.

    I was expecting Pfizer yesterday and actually got Moderna.

    And, for the record, other than maybe some very slight tenderness at the injection area, I've had no side effects whatsoever. Although I do expect some general bodily aches tonight because I've been out there weeding and thinning like a madwoman to beat the rain that we have forecast for the next six days. In other words, it hasn't curtailed my activities one bit.

    Yeah my oldest son and his fiancee got their's on Saturday and they got Pfizer, but were told that some days that clinic gives Moderna, it just depends what they have available that day. They also had the guy right in front of them pass out and fall flat on his face right after his shot, so that was a bit nerve wracking. But they were fine.

    Glad you have no after effects!
    edited May 18
  • ythannahythannah Member Posts: 3,748 Member Member Posts: 3,748 Member
    jenilla1 wrote: »
    ythannah wrote: »

    I was expecting Pfizer yesterday and actually got Moderna.

    And, for the record, other than maybe some very slight tenderness at the injection area, I've had no side effects whatsoever. Although I do expect some general bodily aches tonight because I've been out there weeding and thinning like a madwoman to beat the rain that we have forecast for the next six days. In other words, it hasn't curtailed my activities one bit.

    OT, but I live in a very dry climate and I wait until AFTER a rain to do my weeding, if possible, so the ground is soft and weeds pull out easily! LOL! I'm imagining how pissed I'd be if I worked my tail off pulling weeds (mostly breaking them off at the surface) from the hard, dry soil and then it rained right after... :o:'(

    I took vacation this week to do the spring garden cleanout, mainly because our designated yard waste pickup day is next Wednesday. "After the rain" looks like it'll be maybe Tuesday, when I'm back at work.

    I hear you, though. An older friend of mine says the same, that weeds are easier to pull after rain. In reality, the little suckers are coming out whenever I have the time to spend in the garden!
  • paperpuddingpaperpudding Member Posts: 6,725 Member Member Posts: 6,725 Member
    totally unrelated to Covid (except maybe people did more gardening in lockdowns ;) ) - but yes weeds are definitely easier to pull out after a rain
    edited May 18
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