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Face mask or no face mask?

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  • Hollis100Hollis100 Member Posts: 1,030 Member Member Posts: 1,030 Member
    Hollis100 wrote: »
    100% true.

    I forgot to mention kids who are being denied proper education and socialization, and whose families aren't rich and well-connected enough to set up a "learning pod" or hire private tutors. Check out this guy over here, telling people he's keeping his kids home, when he is a rich and famous TV personality who can hire private tutors and get all kinds of other resources for his kids that the average person could never dream of.
    https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/12/health/covid-kids-school-gupta-essay/index.html

    I'm responding to your comment about proper education and socialization.

    Last night, when I was at work (I work in retail), I talked to an elementary school teacher. Yesterday was the first day of school. She teaches 2nd and 3rd graders here in the United States. I could tell she was worried.

    First of all, her school taped her whole classroom floor into a grid with 6 x 6 foot squares (she showed me photos on her phone). Each kid has a desk in the middle of that square -- and they have to stay there ALL DAY. Again, we're talking about kids in the 2nd and 3rd grades. They have one desk to the side where one kid can go to sit if they feel upset. Also, these little kids have to wear a mask ALL DAY.

    I am absolutely for people wearing masks, always. However, I told this teacher that I see adults every day who refuse to wear a mask for even 15 minutes, but somehow we expect little kids to wear one all day, plus stay inside a 6 foot x 6 foot square. What kind of "proper socialization" is going to take place?

    If I was a parent and had the option, I would vastly prefer online learning to this situation. Plus it would be far safer for both children and teachers. Or keep the schools closed for a semester -- better that than to have thousands of people come down with the disease.

    I thought if you were maintaining 6' distance masks were not necessary? Maybe that's just my state. Masks are mandated when you CANNOT maintain 6' distance. I see requiring them in hallways and stuff, but if the desks are enforced 6' distancing, isn't that socially distant?

    Also in my state, kids 10 and under are not required to wear masks, so 2nd and 3rd grade would be a no. In schools, they are only required for 4th grade and up - at least the schools policies I've read.

    This teacher told me masks are required all day. She talked at length about the type of mask they use. Young children are often asymptomatic and shed more virus than adults, so I assume that's the reasoning -- I didn't ask her.

    You mentioned that social distancing of 6 feet is mandated where you live, without masks. I'm passing on what the teacher told me about the 6 x 6 foot squares. I would certainly want to wear a mask in a closed room with 15 or so people, even if they were spaced 6 feet apart. That's a lot of breath and droplets in a closed area.
  • mockchocmockchoc Member Posts: 6,407 Member Member Posts: 6,407 Member
    mockchoc wrote: »
    mockchoc wrote: »
    Shout out to all my like minded and 'selfish' friends. Be safe those of you out in the counties, rural communities, and small towns of the United States where you've done perfectly fine so far. Remember, it's Friday and the mass exodus of city dwellers began upwards of 6 hours ago on the east coast and they may be heading to your area for the weekend to get some space and fresh air. Remember also, that although you've spent the past week being responsible, looking out for yourselves and local community, it is also you who are expected to help anyone other than yourself. This includes those which you would not have come into contact with except for the fact that they traveled to you. Wear a mask for 'their protection'.

    Are they coming over the boarder. Not sure where you are but if there is a hotspot over a boarder then it should be closed like ours is to hotspots.

    Coming across state lines but no state lines are closed nor are peoples travel restrictions going to be enforced if they are even enforceable.

    But, meh, we're the selfish ones who don't care about everyone else.

    I at least do NOT think you are selfish. You are being totally sensible.

    You're good. You've never thrown out those accusations like others have.

    Big hugs darling.
  • AnnPT77AnnPT77 Member, Premium Posts: 16,456 Member Member, Premium Posts: 16,456 Member
    Hollis100 wrote: »
    100% true.

    I forgot to mention kids who are being denied proper education and socialization, and whose families aren't rich and well-connected enough to set up a "learning pod" or hire private tutors. Check out this guy over here, telling people he's keeping his kids home, when he is a rich and famous TV personality who can hire private tutors and get all kinds of other resources for his kids that the average person could never dream of.
    https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/12/health/covid-kids-school-gupta-essay/index.html

    I'm responding to your comment about proper education and socialization.

    Last night, when I was at work (I work in retail), I talked to an elementary school teacher. Yesterday was the first day of school. She teaches 2nd and 3rd graders here in the United States. I could tell she was worried.

    First of all, her school taped her whole classroom floor into a grid with 6 x 6 foot squares (she showed me photos on her phone). Each kid has a desk in the middle of that square -- and they have to stay there ALL DAY. Again, we're talking about kids in the 2nd and 3rd grades. They have one desk to the side where one kid can go to sit if they feel upset. Also, these little kids have to wear a mask ALL DAY.

    I am absolutely for people wearing masks, always. However, I told this teacher that I see adults every day who refuse to wear a mask for even 15 minutes, but somehow we expect little kids to wear one all day, plus stay inside a 6 foot x 6 foot square. What kind of "proper socialization" is going to take place?

    If I was a parent and had the option, I would vastly prefer online learning to this situation. Plus it would be far safer for both children and teachers. Or keep the schools closed for a semester -- better that than to have thousands of people come down with the disease.

    I thought if you were maintaining 6' distance masks were not necessary? Maybe that's just my state. Masks are mandated when you CANNOT maintain 6' distance. I see requiring them in hallways and stuff, but if the desks are enforced 6' distancing, isn't that socially distant?

    Also in my state, kids 10 and under are not required to wear masks, so 2nd and 3rd grade would be a no. In schools, they are only required for 4th grade and up - at least the schools policies I've read.

    Well, for one it's IMO pretty questionable that the 2nd & 3rd graders are not only going to stay in the squares, but all stay in the *exact center* of their own squares? That's what would maintain 6' distances, staying dead center.

    I don't know this school (but the administrators do). We're in an environment where it's been the trend for years now to try minimize/manage outside air coming in, for energy efficiency reasons. Now, we want rapid turnover of cleaned air. The average HVAC system is not really set up that way now, and some of the schools, underfunded as they are, have pretty deficient physical plant in the first place.

    These are hard, messy problems, and all the pieces - ventilation, distances, masks, virus levels in the specific community, more - all interrelate in practice.
    edited August 22
  • Hollis100Hollis100 Member Posts: 1,030 Member Member Posts: 1,030 Member
    "AnnPT77 wrote:
    Well, for one it's IMO pretty questionable that the 2nd & 3rd graders are not only going to stay in the squares, but all stay in the *exact center* of their own squares? That's what would maintain 6' distances, staying dead center.

    Yes, this was my thought, but I didn't express it well. How the heck can squirmy little kids stay in the middle of a 6 x 6 foot square all day? I can't see this happening.

  • BrustMannEinerBrustMannEiner Member Posts: 360 Member Member Posts: 360 Member
    Hollis100 wrote: »
    "AnnPT77 wrote:
    Well, for one it's IMO pretty questionable that the 2nd & 3rd graders are not only going to stay in the squares, but all stay in the *exact center* of their own squares? That's what would maintain 6' distances, staying dead center.

    Yes, this was my thought, but I didn't express it well. How the heck can squirmy little kids stay in the middle of a 6 x 6 foot square all day? I can't see this happening.

    leg cuff, shackle, length of chain, and an eye bolt secured to the floor.

    Just kidding. Probably not appropriate for a debate.
    edited August 22
  • Hollis100Hollis100 Member Posts: 1,030 Member Member Posts: 1,030 Member
    Hollis100 wrote: »
    "AnnPT77 wrote:
    Well, for one it's IMO pretty questionable that the 2nd & 3rd graders are not only going to stay in the squares, but all stay in the *exact center* of their own squares? That's what would maintain 6' distances, staying dead center.

    Yes, this was my thought, but I didn't express it well. How the heck can squirmy little kids stay in the middle of a 6 x 6 foot square all day? I can't see this happening.

    leg cuff, shackle, length of chain, and an eye bolt secured to the floor.

    Just kidding. Probably not appropriate for a debate.

    Probably not, but also the only way I could see keeping those kids inside their little 6 x 6 squares. The whole concept is nuts.

  • BrustMannEinerBrustMannEiner Member Posts: 360 Member Member Posts: 360 Member
    mockchoc wrote: »
    Shout out to all my like minded and 'selfish' friends. Be safe those of you out in the counties, rural communities, and small towns of the United States where you've done perfectly fine so far. Remember, it's Friday and the mass exodus of city dwellers began upwards of 6 hours ago on the east coast and they may be heading to your area for the weekend to get some space and fresh air. Remember also, that although you've spent the past week being responsible, looking out for yourselves and local community, it is also you who are expected to help anyone other than yourself. This includes those which you would not have come into contact with except for the fact that they traveled to you. Wear a mask for 'their protection'.

    Are they coming over the boarder. Not sure where you are but if there is a hotspot over a boarder then it should be closed like ours is to hotspots.

    Coming across state lines but no state lines are closed nor are peoples travel restrictions going to be enforced if they are even enforceable.

    But, meh, we're the selfish ones who don't care about everyone else.

    And no one in your community traveled to a wedding or family reunion or a big holiday bash or a crowded national park and came back?

    Edit- If you or anyone else in your community did any of that I'd say the same thing that I'm being told, that you're selfish and you don't care about those people who would never have come into contact with you if you had not traveled into their area.

    Aaaaand this is why I stopped contributing and responding to people in this discussion. Assumptions and myopic opinions that the one size fits all approach is appropriate for all of us.

    Go back and read the entire thread. A bunch of elderly farmers and cattleman are not likely traveling to weddings, family reunions, big holiday bashes or crowded national parks. If they were to travel outside of our rural community I trust that they are responsible people and will take whatever actions they decide are appropriate during their travel and upon their return. In addition, if a family was going to travel, the probability they would need someone from the community to help tend to their property is pretty high so we'd probably know they were traveling, where to, and for how long.
    edited August 22
  • lynn_glenmontlynn_glenmont Member Posts: 8,182 Member Member Posts: 8,182 Member
    Hollis100 wrote: »
    mockchoc wrote: »
    Shout out to all my like minded and 'selfish' friends. Be safe those of you out in the counties, rural communities, and small towns of the United States where you've done perfectly fine so far. Remember, it's Friday and the mass exodus of city dwellers began upwards of 6 hours ago on the east coast and they may be heading to your area for the weekend to get some space and fresh air. Remember also, that although you've spent the past week being responsible, looking out for yourselves and local community, it is also you who are expected to help anyone other than yourself. This includes those which you would not have come into contact with except for the fact that they traveled to you. Wear a mask for 'their protection'.

    Are they coming over the boarder. Not sure where you are but if there is a hotspot over a boarder then it should be closed like ours is to hotspots.

    Coming across state lines but no state lines are closed nor are peoples travel restrictions going to be enforced if they are even enforceable.

    But, meh, we're the selfish ones who don't care about everyone else.

    And no one in your community traveled to a wedding or family reunion or a big holiday bash or a crowded national park and came back?

    Edited to add this to be clearer about my point.

    Even if we could stop people from traveling to your area from cities -- which I'm completely in favor of --- there would still be risk of people from your area bringing it back from other areas when they travel. As far as I can tell, people engaging in unnecessary travel during the pandemic is not limited to city dwellers.

    Agree with the above comment. I currently live in a small town/rural area. I interact all the time with farmers, truck drivers who travel for a living, and other country people. Right now, lots of people are driving their sons and daughters to college in other areas. Yes, all kinds of people travel for all kinds of reasons. There's no blame involved, that's life, but more than one group of people spread disease.

    Yes, all kinds of people travel for all kinds of reasons, some of them absolutely necessary, like truck drivers, and some that may be futile, but understandable, like taking kids to college. I stay home as much as I can to improve the odds for those who can't.
  • cgvet37cgvet37 Member Posts: 1,076 Member Member Posts: 1,076 Member
    cgvet37 wrote: »
    mockchoc wrote: »
    cgvet37 wrote: »
    mockchoc wrote: »
    cgvet37 wrote: »
    Masks do nothing but give a false sense of security. You better wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Dispose of gloves before entering your vehicle. Sanitize your car and anything you purchased when you get home. You better take your clothes off in the garage, and immediately take them to the washer. Then take a shower. If not, you are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.

    Hey you. :) I appreciate your thoughts on masks. I don't know if you mentioned social distancing or not. If you do that then masks are not so important. Are you doing that? That is really important.

    I go to the gym 3 days a week. I go to friends houses. I go to resteraunts. I'm not going to live in fear.

    Do you know what is funny? You ARE actually showing you are living in fear by behaving this way. Wishing you the best though. Sorry to read you are scared. We all are a little bit.

    I'm scared, because I don't wear a mask like a good little sheep?

    I mean, it's gotta be pretty terrifying to live your life thinking that the mask mandates are in place to control all of us and that the global pandemic is some kind of spooky conspiracy to terrorize the masses, and that you alone know all of this and are out trying to spread the good word and no one is listening to you because we have been brain washed.

    I'd be pretty scared if I believed all of that.

    Maybe you should stay inside?

    Keep your head buried in the sand. I bet if the Government told you to get into a box car for the health of yourself and others, you would do it, no questions asked.
  • mockchocmockchoc Member Posts: 6,407 Member Member Posts: 6,407 Member
    Too lazy to read back and find the exact posts and parts of posts I am responding to

    But re Australia situation - yes people returning from o/s and in some cases from one state to another (eg Victoria into anywhere else) are quarantined in supervised hotels.

    The hotel used in SA is one I have stayed in myself pre Covid.

    it isnt a 5 star hotel but it isnt an internment camp or a *kitten* hole - it is a decent basic level hotel.

    Given this was at government cost initially and is now at people's own cost if they returned after the deadline - it is not reasonable or cost efficient for it to be a luxury 5 star hotel
    and obviously not practical for it to be many different hotels.
    Someone posted a video upthread- not sure if that was NZ or Australia - but ,yes they are like that.
    Seem quite reasonable to me.

    Yes people in self isolation because they have Covid or have been in contact with a Covid cluster or have returned from another state not requiring quarnatined hotels - can be checked on by police
    Which I also agree with - no point having a self isolation rule if it is not enforced.

    I highly doubt there has been much, if any, breaking down doors to do so.

    My friend who went to visit family in NSW for compassionate reasons returned to SA - he was then required to self isolate in his own home for 2 weeks
    Police came round at random times to check he was there - they knocked on the door, politely spoke to him and left. No harrassing involved.
    I have no problem with this at all.

    Somebody claimed people in parts of Australia cannot go outside - other than those in 2 weeks quarantine or self isolation, this is not so at all.
    Even in Victoria, which has the worst case load, this is not so.
    People can go out to excercise and can be unmasked whilst excercising (other than plain walking)
    I'm not even sure that they apply to all of Victoria - or only metropolitan Melbourne.
    https://www.dhhs.vic.gov.au/stage-4-restrictions-covid-19

    Where I live in SA we are doing very well.

    NO community transmission despite massive testing levels, trickle of new cases which are all returnees from o/s or interstate, isolated as above.
    Life is almost normal - sports back on, dining out back on, shops open, activities like Dog Obedience back on, nursing home residents can have visitors and go out
    Every place and activity has to have Covid safe plan and abide by conditions - but the conditions are not onerous and relatively easy to meet.
    No mass gatherings and hard border against NSW and Victoria and, as all of Australia, against other countries.

    I think we are doing much better than most other countries, and much much better than US - many reasons I know - but high up would be early and strong restrictions and what seems much more population compliance.

    not quite sure how anyone is thinking it did not work out here :*

    Umm my guess is they listen to a oompa loompa.
  • ReenieHJReenieHJ Member Posts: 2,161 Member Member Posts: 2,161 Member
    Hollis100 wrote: »
    "AnnPT77 wrote:
    Well, for one it's IMO pretty questionable that the 2nd & 3rd graders are not only going to stay in the squares, but all stay in the *exact center* of their own squares? That's what would maintain 6' distances, staying dead center.

    Yes, this was my thought, but I didn't express it well. How the heck can squirmy little kids stay in the middle of a 6 x 6 foot square all day? I can't see this happening.

    That. Plus where did they come up with the 6' rule? Weren't there other findings that said droplets could get hurled further than that? Sometimes we're fed numbers and focus too much on those.
    My belief is 'better to be safe(r) than sorry' and if it's all for nothing, then well, at least I tried, right?

    It's hard to be perfect. :) And get all this just right. I am at my sister's house several times a week to offer her respite, always sanitizing my hands before I enter and donning a mask. I'm trying, in my own way. She has different caregivers/nurses into her home helping with her dh(he has Alzheimers). These people are truly wonderful and without them, I think I would've lost my sister months ago. :( While I'm by no means doing it perfectly, I have also seen caregivers drop their masks down to chew their fingernails. :( WTH
    None of us are doing it 100% no matter how hard we try. BUT it's the fact that we do try. We will never know how many people did NOT become infected because of that alone.
    edited August 22
  • Theoldguy1Theoldguy1 Member Posts: 1,222 Member Member Posts: 1,222 Member
    cgvet37 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Dnarules wrote: »
    lokihen wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    ReenieHJ wrote: »
    Wearing a mask in public, for me, has become like wearing a seat belt. I feel naked without it. Plus it covers my teeth in case I didn't see the broccoli.

    I wear one when required, but counting the days until not required. Will wear seat belt forever.

    While I doubt it will become as cultural here in the US as it is in some Asian countries, I hope it becomes normal to wear one when we have colds and flu.

    I would like to see masks used more during flu season. Not mandated....but just a shift to people using the..

    Doubt it will happen on a widespread basis in most of the US. The places in Asia where you commonly see them being worn have terrible air quality and high population density.

    I think it's not just that, but also cultural. I live near an area with a good many East Asians in Chicago, and it was reasonably common to see people in masks before this.

    But I agree it's unlikely to catch on in the US.

    No, it's because of pollution. The pollution in mainland China is so bad they have to wet the streets. They don't have regulations like we do here. A lot of that pollution winds up in Japan, that's why you see a lot of Japanese wearing masks.

    You are correct on the general lack of pollution regulations. I work for a company that sells equipment world wide. The stuff that is sold in North America and Europe is 20 years or so ahead of what is sold in many Asian countries as far as pollution controls go. There is little regulation and customers won't pay the premium for the controls without the government regulations so we have different versions of products for those countries.

    Also the population density of many Asian cities is such that if a cootie does get out it spreads fast.

    There is not one US city on the list of the 50 most densely populated metropolitan areas in the world.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2019/07/11/the-50-most-densely-populated-cities-in-the-world/39664259/
    edited August 22
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