Thin Guy Looking To Gain Muscle
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richardgavel wrote: »At least some of it is a result of neuromuscular adaptation, which happens initially. Basically, your nervous system is learning to more thoroughly engage your muscle fibers when performing a lift.
Is there no growth during that time? How long do I give it before I know this particular routine isn't effectively working?0 -
If you want to avoid frustration and burnout I would suggest scaling your expectations to years rather than months.4
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richardgavel wrote: »At least some of it is a result of neuromuscular adaptation, which happens initially. Basically, your nervous system is learning to more thoroughly engage your muscle fibers when performing a lift.
Is there no growth during that time? How long do I give it before I know this particular routine isn't effectively working?
Very little... it's mostly strength gains. It's an old saying but there is some truth to it - but until you hit your first real plateau you really don't start to build any mass. It was true for me - although I miss being able to add weight to the bar every week.
I've been using the same routine for years - even scaled it down during the pandemic, since we've been only allotted an hour at a time in the gym and by appointment only. Funny thing is that I've actually seen more growth and progress with the shorter sessions (all compounds, no accessory). Less is more for me, apparently.
It's also true that unless you want to bulk rather rapidly (I did) and are cool with being fluffy, it's going to be a very long journey. I've been at this now for over 5 years, was pretty damned skinny at the start. It's only been the last couple of years that people actually started to consider me big... well, excluding that monster bulk I did year one - that wasn't the kind of "big" I wanted to be known for. lol2 -
Did you review that athleanX video I linked about Jessie's progress?
Wasn't the main link, but it's one of the suggested near the end.
He has made some really good progress, but day to day and week to week videos you likely would never notice, not until you compare months of difference.
This is why I mentioned way back about strength vs hypertrophy (some overlap), and tapping out what you got first.
Resetting expectations with knowledge will indeed be your biggest thing for making this sustaining and successful.1 -
jseams1234 wrote: »Very little... it's mostly strength gains. It's an old saying but there is some truth to it - but until you hit your first real plateau you really don't start to build any mass. It was true for me - although I miss being able to add weight to the bar every week.
Ok. I just re-measured myself this morning and my body is overall up from 3 months ago, minus my arms which haven't changed (granted, bicep did go down by 1 cm when I measured in June and are now back up to the starting number). Thighs, hips, chest, and shoulders have all added 1 cm or more.jseams1234 wrote: »It's also true that unless you want to bulk rather rapidly (I did) and are cool with being fluffy, it's going to be a very long journey. I've been at this now for over 5 years, was pretty damned skinny at the start. It's only been the last couple of years that people actually started to consider me big... well, excluding that monster bulk I did year one - that wasn't the kind of "big" I wanted to be known for. lol
How skinny were you and where are you at now?
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Did you review that athleanX video I linked about Jessie's progress?
Wasn't the main link, but it's one of the suggested near the end.
He has made some really good progress, but day to day and week to week videos you likely would never notice, not until you compare months of difference.
This one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDh3fnHn7Xc
Interestingly, in that video, his starting body overall at 130lbs "looks" bigger than me. His arms are bigger than mine at that weight. He also talks about legs being his most concerned area. I don't think my legs are my weakest, thighs are actually pretty decent, it's definitely arms.
"Resetting expectations with knowledge". YES.This is why I mentioned way back about strength vs hypertrophy (some overlap), and tapping out what you got first.
Resetting expectations with knowledge will indeed be your biggest thing for making this sustaining and successful.
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Barrelquest wrote: »Pullups, Dips, Bench press,(push ups)- All of that! 3-4 sets to failure. (you don't need to join a gym for this) Everyday to every other day or a soreness subsides. This is not rocket science and you dont need a program, Just do a ton of those movements hard and to failure and EAT .....A lot- Breads, pasta, eggs, milk just about anything. You'll have to worry about getting cut later after you build the muscle. Note: a lot of cardio (your biking may offset"kill" your attempts to gain,.)
Errr, friends don't let friends skip leg day.1 -
jseams1234 wrote: »Very little... it's mostly strength gains. It's an old saying but there is some truth to it - but until you hit your first real plateau you really don't start to build any mass. It was true for me - although I miss being able to add weight to the bar every week.
Ok. I just re-measured myself this morning and my body is overall up from 3 months ago, minus my arms which haven't changed (granted, bicep did go down by 1 cm when I measured in June and are now back up to the starting number). Thighs, hips, chest, and shoulders have all added 1 cm or more.jseams1234 wrote: »It's also true that unless you want to bulk rather rapidly (I did) and are cool with being fluffy, it's going to be a very long journey. I've been at this now for over 5 years, was pretty damned skinny at the start. It's only been the last couple of years that people actually started to consider me big... well, excluding that monster bulk I did year one - that wasn't the kind of "big" I wanted to be known for. lol
How skinny were you and where are you at now?
I started at around 135# at 6'1 and I gained just by eating to 165 back in late 2016 but I ended up a rather stereotypical "skinny fat". Started lifting at the beginning of 2017 when I joined MFP and I'm about 210 right now. At my heaviest I was a bit over 250 during one of my bulks. I'm "bulking" again but I've not been as focused and it's turning into more of a recomp but I'm ok with that at the moment.
165# 2017
Current (kinda, haven't taken a new progress photo a while).
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You look great.jseams1234 wrote: »I started at around 135# at 6'1 and I gained just by eating to 165 back in late 2016 but I ended up a rather stereotypical "skinny fat". Started lifting at the beginning of 2017 when I joined MFP and I'm about 210 right now. At my heaviest I was a bit over 250 during one of my bulks. I'm "bulking" again but I've not been as focused and it's turning into more of a recomp but I'm ok with that at the moment.
Wow, you added 30lbs just from eating! How far into lifting was that 2017 pic?1 -
You look great.jseams1234 wrote: »I started at around 135# at 6'1 and I gained just by eating to 165 back in late 2016 but I ended up a rather stereotypical "skinny fat". Started lifting at the beginning of 2017 when I joined MFP and I'm about 210 right now. At my heaviest I was a bit over 250 during one of my bulks. I'm "bulking" again but I've not been as focused and it's turning into more of a recomp but I'm ok with that at the moment.
Wow, you added 30lbs just from eating! How far into lifting was that 2017 pic?
Well, I got married... my wife was literally force feeding me.
I'm not sure - I think it was only maybe a few weeks into lifting. I had a really crappy trainer at first who was more interested in having me balance on a bosu ball and flap my arms with pink dumbbells than listen to my goals. I remember I started to take progress pics after I got rid of him and started doing my own programming. I think some people here might remember but I got really fat during my first bulk. Literal Kung-Fu Panda. I was told by so many forum "guru's" that I was doing it wrong. Maybe I was... but it did work for me because when I lost the fluff I looked nothing like I had previously. I'm not sure I'd advise others to go that route though. It was a new experience for me though - never been so fat I had trouble putting on socks or tying my shoes before. lol
edit: in the first pic above I'm holding in my gut... I'm not in the second. lol0 -
jseams1234 wrote: »I'm not sure - I think it was only maybe a few weeks into lifting.
edit: in the first pic above I'm holding in my gut... I'm not in the second. lol
You can see all your potential there in the first pic, you had a great start already. The second pic absolutely shows your work and you look great.
I would be very curious to see a pic of you at 135. My arms are thin (10" at the bicep) and my body just wont put any weight there so far. I'm just getting a "muffin top" band around my waist and a little overall body fill in.
It's been suggested to me more than once that I need to eat even more, but I don't fully understand that with what I'm seeing my body do already with a 6-8lb gain. Since you used to be 135, what are your thoughts?
Also, thanks for this. I really appreciate it.1 -
jseams1234 wrote: »I'm not sure - I think it was only maybe a few weeks into lifting.
edit: in the first pic above I'm holding in my gut... I'm not in the second. lol
You can see all your potential there in the first pic, you had a great start already. The second pic absolutely shows your work and you look great.
I would be very curious to see a pic of you at 135. My arms are thin (10" at the bicep) and my body just wont put any weight there so far. I'm just getting a "muffin top" band around my waist and a little overall body fill in.
It's been suggested to me more than once that I need to eat even more, but I don't fully understand that with what I'm seeing my body do already with a 6-8lb gain. Since you used to be 135, what are your thoughts?
Also thanks for this. I really appreciate it.
Thank you for the compliment - I appreciate it. I still sometimes don't know how to take them about my appearance. Body dysmorphia really is a thing for skinny guys too. It's why I cut my head off the vast majority of my progress pics... it really does help.
I'm sorry can't find a picture of me shirtless at my lower weights - not really a surprise. I was always very self-conscious of my weight as I was teased for it my entire life. Especially in the Army, as I stuck out like a sore thumb. They had a nickname for me back then, "Pumkinhead"... I say I'm 6'1 but I'm closer to 6'2 and when you are super skinny it makes you look even taller. I was also kinda mean and had a temper - so they named me after this movie guy and it stuck for a long time:
I usually wore shirts way to large for my frame - never fitted, or even wearing the entire two shirt thing. It's a bit common for tall skinny guys to do this even though I now realize it hid nothing and made me look worse. Here is a picture of me at around 140.. maybe 150. You can see how skinny I was even though I'm trying to hide it with the baggy outfit and double shirt:
So, I went back and checked out some of your previous posts - first thing: you are bigger than I was when in the Army and bigger than I was for most of my life until my 40's. I just turned 51 - so I'm not young. You are starting a couple of years before I did - so I think your starting place, while maybe not ideal in your own mind, isn't too bad. If you've ever seen any of the threads where extremely large individuals lost a lot of weight, they may be lucky in that they sometimes have a rather muscular underlying base - but they also have to deal with loose skin and the constant struggle to keep the weight off. Not something I deal with or you will deal with either, I think.
I'd say keep bulking. You mention your "muffin top" and some body fat filling in... Well, here is how I looked after about a year and a half of lifting and one long crazy bulk where I ended up on the north side of 250. I wasn't joking that I got fat...
Also, not sure what program you are following - I started out on a PPL and moved to PHUL and then modified that to a 3 day program with no leg work when I kept tearing my knee up. I need a knee replacement but I keep putting it off. I have chicken legs - luckily board shorts are a thing... don't skip leg days like I do.
What are your goals? Do you want to look like Jessie from Athlean X? or are you more wanting "bear mode"? Jesse doesn't look bad but his build is the kind of body that will look small in clothes - like "Do you even lift" in most clothes. Personally, I want to look big in clothes - it's where I spend most of my time. So I'm perfectly happy sitting at 15% with a 4 pack or even at 18%. What I'm not happy with is looking like the joke by Dan Cummins "looks like he lifts from the front but like he shouldn't from the side - he might hurt the baby"... but for me, I went through that stage more than a couple of times to be mostly happy with my end results. I'm not sure I would be where I'm at if I had done it differently - or maybe I'm just rationalizing it all to myself and I'd be further along without the extreme swings. I just know that this is the path I took and this is where I'm at today, 5 years later.
How you approach bodybuilding and bulking will really depend on your goals and comfort levels with gaining fluff. Some people can't stand going through those stages and can't see the picture at the end of the tunnel.
What I don't really recommend is trying to ride that razor edge of getting just enough calories to gain some muscle but limit fat gains - what they call "lean bulking". I've seen a few people who seem to have some success doing a lean bulk - a couple are actually regulars in this forum... but the vast majority who try it and stick with it look exactly the same today as they did years ago and the others just seem to quit in frustration after a year or two.
Recomp is also a no-go unless you are already at your goal weight - and even then, once again - from the posts I've seen here and the "success" stories posted - it doesn't seem to usually produce any results. Too many who claim success show before and after pics where you have to squint real hard and use your imagination to see anything - or they simply lost weight and leaned out while calling it a recomp - which is frankly, dishonest.
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"Body dysmorphia really is a thing for skinny guys too." AGREED.jseams1234 wrote: »Thank you for the compliment - I appreciate it. I still sometimes don't know how to take them about my appearance. Body dysmorphia really is a thing for skinny guys too. It's why I cut my head off the vast majority of my progress pics... it really does help.
I actually think my thighs are pretty decent, arms are desperate for improvement. Thighs increased about 4.5cm and butt/hips increased 6cm since April this year.jseams1234 wrote: »Also, not sure what program you are following - I started out on a PPL and moved to PHUL and then modified that to a 3 day program with no leg work when I kept tearing my knee up. I need a knee replacement but I keep putting it off. I have chicken legs - luckily board shorts are a thing... don't skip leg days like I do.
I started out knowing NOTHING, so I followed along with YouTube videos (Next Workout - Igor), then I added some other videos, then I got dumbbells and followed along with dumbbell routines. Then I started asking around and was told to follow a novice routine and utilize time under tension with my dumbbells. This was at about the 5-month mark. So I followed an M&S routine but I personally didn't like it so I used theirs as a template and just switched it out with sets from their guide page.
So for the past 5 weeks I've been doing 3 days a week, hitting every muscle group each of those days (and yes, including legs!). It's basically 3 sets, 2 minutes each, 7 different exercises/areas per day totaling between 45 to 50 minutes (I can list the entire routine if you're curious).
Since starting that, when I used to feel the part of my chest closest to the center, it was all rib cage. Now, I have padding there and cannot feel skin on ribs (and that's a new feeling for me!). My muscle-less biceps, which used to be like a short cucumber, now are starting to have a more circular bulge (but I don't understand how my measurement for them is the same for the past 6 months?! Go figure). So I'm seeing small changes. Am I at a snail's pace? Could I be doing better? I don't know. That's why I'm looking for advice.
"Do you even lift" is the goal. Back to the dysmorphia... I just want to bring myself up to a moderate range and get out of the "skinny" area once and for all.jseams1234 wrote: »What are your goals? Do you want to look like Jessie from Athlean X? or are you more wanting "bear mode"? Jesse doesn't look bad but his build is the kind of body that will look small in clothes - like "Do you even lift" in most clothes. Personally, I want to look big in clothes - it's where I spend most of my time.
The fluff. I don't like what I have now, I can't imagine anymore. That coupled with thin arms? Really don't want to go through that. Will I have to endure the fluff to be "do you even lift"?jseams1234 wrote: »So, I went back and checked out some of your previous posts - first thing: you are bigger than I was when in the Army and bigger than I was for most of my life until my 40's. I just turned 51 - so I'm not young. You are starting a couple of years before I did - so I think your starting place, while maybe not ideal in your own mind, isn't too bad.
I'd say keep bulking. You mention your "muffin top" and some body fat filling in...
How you approach bodybuilding and bulking will really depend on your goals and comfort levels with gaining fluff. Some people can't stand going through those stages and can't see the picture at the end of the tunnel.
And that's what I'm trying to figure out/learn. Where do I go? I don't know.jseams1234 wrote: »What I don't really recommend is trying to ride that razor edge of getting just enough calories to gain some muscle but limit fat gains - what they call "lean bulking". I've seen a few people who seem to have some success doing a lean bulk - a couple are actually regulars in this forum... but the vast majority who try it and stick with it look exactly the same today as they did years ago and the others just seem to quit in frustration after a year or two.
And now it's time to go eat! Again, appreciate you taking the time to do this for me.
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I'd suggest before bulking you confirm you have tapped out the muscle you got already for CNS and form improvements.
You can gain strength for a while improving those 2 things before the body feels the need to make more muscle - during which time that's not what the extra calories are being used for. Some body parts may already be there, some may have more to go.
Once the increases on the bar have really slowed down or seemed to stop - then time to add on extra calories, increase the volume to hypertrophy level programs, and start your 1-2 lbs monthly, so about 250 cal surplus.
Just my thought. Your extra gut right now is probably because you haven't tapped out yet.1 -
I'd suggest before bulking you confirm you have tapped out the muscle you got already for CNS and form improvements.
You can gain strength for a while improving those 2 things before the body feels the need to make more muscle - during which time that's not what the extra calories are being used for. Some body parts may already be there, some may have more to go.
Once the increases on the bar have really slowed down or seemed to stop - then time to add on extra calories, increase the volume to hypertrophy level programs, and start your 1-2 lbs monthly, so about 250 cal surplus.
Just my thought. Your extra gut right now is probably because you haven't tapped out yet.
Ok, that makes sense. Gut has added 10cm since the start.
What's CNS?
Thanks for the advice, appreciate it.0 -
CNS = Central Nervous System1
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Basing one’s expectations off another’s progress can also be a path to disappointment, as each of us respond differently to training and dietary stimuli, and have different genetic frameworks including max muscle size, muscle insertion points, joint segment lengths, etc.2
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