A CALORIE IS NOT A CALORIE
Replies
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Wait, you're not sure if they accounted for water weight, and you say that can affect the weight loss numbers, but measuring for LBM is a perfect comparison, even though water is a component of LBM. Water weight loss would show as a decrease in LBM. So how can you discount one number (weight loss) due to possible water weight fluctuation, but you don't discount the other number (LBM) due to the same water weight fluctuation? I believe that's called "cherry picking."On the studies, the way I interpret them, is that there are two things going on: (1) weight loss and (2) LBM maintenance. The PRO groups lost more weight than the CHO groups while also maintaining more LBM (or in the first study's case, lost the same), so that means that the PRO groups actually lost a LOT more FAT than the CHO (or "normal") groups. I was trying to not couple these (maintain LBM and increased fat loss) as I thought it would muddy the waters because weight loss has a couple factors that affect the numbers on the scale -- (1) muscle loss, (2) fat loss and (3) water retention. People with more CHO in their diets, retain more water, correct? That's why you see a huge initial weight loss in ketogenic/carb restricted diets -- it's that loss of 5-7+ lbs of water, right? I wasn't sure if they accounted for that in their weight loss numbers or not, in either study, so that can skew the weight loss results whereas when measuring for LBM, that's always apples to apples. So, I was using the study to emphasize the maintenance of LBM in the PRO groups rather than discussing the weight/fat issue as it's not as straightforward. Perhaps I'm wrong on this, but that's how I read it.
And I have seen several sources showing that the catabolization of 1 lb muscle releases 600-1500 kcals whereas 1 lb of fat releases 3500 kcals, and I don't think anyone is disputing that. So, if the PRO group also lost more or the same weight than the CHO.normal groups while maintaining a greater amount of LBM, they lost a LOT more lbs of fat (or possibly water). That tracks, right?
In the end, I was just trying to take an easy illustration to show that not all calories are created equal, especially as regards macros. So caloric deficit while important (and likely essential for weight loss) is not the only factor that determines (1) how much weight you lose and (2) what type of weight you lose (i.e. muscle vs fat). There are several other factors that affect that, including the type of food/calories you eat.
I didn't even want to get into the "clean" debate, as I think there is less research on it and the effects are likely less dramatic than macros differences. For me, I think it's possible that it tracks the idea of macros as well -- that "cleaner" food may result in greater weight loss/fat loss. The more nutrient dense food you eat, the less total calories you likely will need to eat to feel full, satiated and meet your nutrient requirements (essential fatty acids, essential amino acids, vitamins, minerals ,etc.). I've seen theories on that -- that too many modern diets have too much low nutrient food. So to get all the nutrients you need, your body will crave more of the food and people end of overeating (or just really hungry while on a diet -- and that's one reason why such a lifestyle is difficult to sustain longterm). Now, I haven't seen any study on that, just theories people have discussed. But, to me, that seems plausible and why you MAY benefit from focusing on nutrient dense food as opposed to food with low nutrient count (i.e. lots of empty calories) for (1) satiety and (2) essential nutrients, especially while in a caloric deficit. But, once again, I haven't seen any studies on that per se -- or don't remember any that were cited by people discussing the theory. If anyone knows of any, I'd love to read them.
I'm just giving possibilities. I haven't read the study in detail for a while, and I'm not particularly interested in doing so now just to get the exact details right in explanation. Feel free to read the details for yourself and compare rather than rely on my memory or explanation.
In the end, either way you cut it, I think it shows that not all calories are the same. That higher protein diet affects weightloss and LBM -- that the higher protein groups lost either weight or presumably more fat and retain more LBM than their CHO/normal counterparts. And that was the thrust of my argument from the very beginning -- that not all calories are the same or result in the same weight loss for the same deficit. So looking at what you eat is important as well -- that it isn't just about how many total calories you consume.
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back in for the gifs0
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I'm just giving possibilities. I haven't read the study in detail for a while, and I'm not particularly interested in doing so now just to get the exact details right in explanation. Feel free to read the details for yourself and compare rather than rely on my memory or explanation.
In the end, either way you cut it, I think it shows that not all calories are the same. That higher protein diet affects weightloss and LBM -- that the higher protein groups lost either weight or presumably more fat and retain more LBM than their CHO/normal counterparts. And that was the thrust of my argument from the very beginning -- that not all calories are the same or result in the same weight loss for the same deficit. So looking at what you eat is important as well -- that it isn't just about how many total calories you consume.
Oh no, look what I found! It seems to be suggesting that A CALORIE IS A CALORIE :noway:
Effects of 4 weight-loss diets differing in fat, protein, and carbohydrate on fat mass, lean mass, visceral adipose tissue, and hepatic fat: results from the POUNDS LOST trial. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22258266
OBJECTIVE: We determined whether energy-reduced diets that emphasize fat, protein, or carbohydrate differentially reduce total, visceral, or hepatic fat or preserve lean mass.
DESIGN: In a subset of participants in a randomized trial of 4 weight-loss diets, body fat and lean mass (n = 424; by using dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry) and abdominal and hepatic fat (n = 165; by using computed tomography) were measured after 6 mo and 2 y. Changes from baseline were compared between assigned amounts of protein (25% compared with 15%) and fat (40% compared with 20%) and across 4 carbohydrate amounts (35% through 65%).
CONCLUSION: Participants lost more fat than lean mass after consumption of all diets, with no differences in changes in body composition, abdominal fat, or hepatic fat between assigned macronutrient amounts.0 -
What's the "quality" calorie that is going to help me lose weight faster? Just wondering
The one that you don't eat...or maybe it was the other one...
:laugh: Got it thanks.0 -
I'm just giving possibilities. I haven't read the study in detail for a while, and I'm not particularly interested in doing so now just to get the exact details right in explanation. Feel free to read the details for yourself and compare rather than rely on my memory or explanation.
In the end, either way you cut it, I think it shows that not all calories are the same. That higher protein diet affects weightloss and LBM -- that the higher protein groups lost either weight or presumably more fat and retain more LBM than their CHO/normal counterparts. And that was the thrust of my argument from the very beginning -- that not all calories are the same or result in the same weight loss for the same deficit. So looking at what you eat is important as well -- that it isn't just about how many total calories you consume.
Oh no, look what I found! It seems to be suggesting that A CALORIE IS A CALORIE :noway:
Effects of 4 weight-loss diets differing in fat, protein, and carbohydrate on fat mass, lean mass, visceral adipose tissue, and hepatic fat: results from the POUNDS LOST trial. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22258266
OBJECTIVE: We determined whether energy-reduced diets that emphasize fat, protein, or carbohydrate differentially reduce total, visceral, or hepatic fat or preserve lean mass.
DESIGN: In a subset of participants in a randomized trial of 4 weight-loss diets, body fat and lean mass (n = 424; by using dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry) and abdominal and hepatic fat (n = 165; by using computed tomography) were measured after 6 mo and 2 y. Changes from baseline were compared between assigned amounts of protein (25% compared with 15%) and fat (40% compared with 20%) and across 4 carbohydrate amounts (35% through 65%).
CONCLUSION: Participants lost more fat than lean mass after consumption of all diets, with no differences in changes in body composition, abdominal fat, or hepatic fat between assigned macronutrient amounts.
Was this study based on self-reported nutrient intake? Or was a strict diet regime followed?
From looking at the link quickly, it looks like it was the former and it even said that "Dietary goals were not fully met; self-reported contrasts were closer to 2% protein, 8% fat, and 14% carbohydrate at 6 mo and 1%, 7%, and 10%, respectively, at 2 y", though I'm not sure what the actual percentages are referencing.
One of the biggest pieces of advice many members give people is to closely track your calories -- weigh everything -- as most know that's one of, if not the biggest, source of error. So, if this was a self-reporting study, that looks like a large area of potential error that may undercut its ultimate conclusions.0 -
Totally random thought:
You know those people who have to have the last word in real life? I wonder if they're the same way online.0 -
I'm just giving possibilities. I haven't read the study in detail for a while, and I'm not particularly interested in doing so now just to get the exact details right in explanation. Feel free to read the details for yourself and compare rather than rely on my memory or explanation.
In the end, either way you cut it, I think it shows that not all calories are the same. That higher protein diet affects weightloss and LBM -- that the higher protein groups lost either weight or presumably more fat and retain more LBM than their CHO/normal counterparts. And that was the thrust of my argument from the very beginning -- that not all calories are the same or result in the same weight loss for the same deficit. So looking at what you eat is important as well -- that it isn't just about how many total calories you consume.
Oh no, look what I found! It seems to be suggesting that A CALORIE IS A CALORIE :noway:
Effects of 4 weight-loss diets differing in fat, protein, and carbohydrate on fat mass, lean mass, visceral adipose tissue, and hepatic fat: results from the POUNDS LOST trial. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22258266
OBJECTIVE: We determined whether energy-reduced diets that emphasize fat, protein, or carbohydrate differentially reduce total, visceral, or hepatic fat or preserve lean mass.
DESIGN: In a subset of participants in a randomized trial of 4 weight-loss diets, body fat and lean mass (n = 424; by using dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry) and abdominal and hepatic fat (n = 165; by using computed tomography) were measured after 6 mo and 2 y. Changes from baseline were compared between assigned amounts of protein (25% compared with 15%) and fat (40% compared with 20%) and across 4 carbohydrate amounts (35% through 65%).
CONCLUSION: Participants lost more fat than lean mass after consumption of all diets, with no differences in changes in body composition, abdominal fat, or hepatic fat between assigned macronutrient amounts.
Was this study based on self-reported nutrient intake? Or was a strict diet regime followed?
From looking at the link quickly, it looks like it was the former and it even said that "Dietary goals were not fully met; self-reported contrasts were closer to 2% protein, 8% fat, and 14% carbohydrate at 6 mo and 1%, 7%, and 10%, respectively, at 2 y", though I'm not sure what the actual percentages are referencing.
One of the biggest pieces of advice many members give people is to closely track your calories -- weigh everything -- as most know that's one of, if not the biggest, source of error. So, if this was a self-reporting study, that looks like a large area of potential error that may undercut its ultimate conclusions.
Perhaps they would have better luck doing such a study in a correctional facility, as it was over the course of two years. 'Course then it's not exactly a "free living" study, as this was intended to be.0 -
Read the study. They used biomarkers such as nitrogen balance and RQ as well as self-reported dietary data. Although dietary goals were not met, they still provided contrasts for analysis.I'm just giving possibilities. I haven't read the study in detail for a while, and I'm not particularly interested in doing so now just to get the exact details right in explanation. Feel free to read the details for yourself and compare rather than rely on my memory or explanation.
In the end, either way you cut it, I think it shows that not all calories are the same. That higher protein diet affects weightloss and LBM -- that the higher protein groups lost either weight or presumably more fat and retain more LBM than their CHO/normal counterparts. And that was the thrust of my argument from the very beginning -- that not all calories are the same or result in the same weight loss for the same deficit. So looking at what you eat is important as well -- that it isn't just about how many total calories you consume.
Oh no, look what I found! It seems to be suggesting that A CALORIE IS A CALORIE :noway:
Effects of 4 weight-loss diets differing in fat, protein, and carbohydrate on fat mass, lean mass, visceral adipose tissue, and hepatic fat: results from the POUNDS LOST trial. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22258266
OBJECTIVE: We determined whether energy-reduced diets that emphasize fat, protein, or carbohydrate differentially reduce total, visceral, or hepatic fat or preserve lean mass.
DESIGN: In a subset of participants in a randomized trial of 4 weight-loss diets, body fat and lean mass (n = 424; by using dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry) and abdominal and hepatic fat (n = 165; by using computed tomography) were measured after 6 mo and 2 y. Changes from baseline were compared between assigned amounts of protein (25% compared with 15%) and fat (40% compared with 20%) and across 4 carbohydrate amounts (35% through 65%).
CONCLUSION: Participants lost more fat than lean mass after consumption of all diets, with no differences in changes in body composition, abdominal fat, or hepatic fat between assigned macronutrient amounts.
Was this study based on self-reported nutrient intake? Or was a strict diet regime followed?
From looking at the link quickly, it looks like it was the former and it even said that "Dietary goals were not fully met; self-reported contrasts were closer to 2% protein, 8% fat, and 14% carbohydrate at 6 mo and 1%, 7%, and 10%, respectively, at 2 y", though I'm not sure what the actual percentages are referencing.
One of the biggest pieces of advice many members give people is to closely track your calories -- weigh everything -- as most know that's one of, if not the biggest, source of error. So, if this was a self-reporting study, that looks like a large area of potential error that may undercut its ultimate conclusions.
So, what fully controlled dietary manipulation studies can YOU provide to back YOUR claims Lyndsey?
You're grasping at straws to avoid losing face. You will find just as many studies showing macronutrient distribution within reasonable limits has an effect as you will find studies showing little or no effect. The human organism is extremely complex and no doubt there is a lot going on that we are yet to discover. The other aspect is the difficulties of human dietary manipulation studies. (Actually, this is one of the things that irk me with regards to people who write diet books and cite lovely cherry picked studies to back their claims).
Anyways, are we going for the 500 for part 2. 0 -
Read the study. They used biomarkers such as nitrogen balance and RQ as well as self-reported dietary data. Although dietary goals were not met, they still provided contrasts for analysis.I'm just giving possibilities. I haven't read the study in detail for a while, and I'm not particularly interested in doing so now just to get the exact details right in explanation. Feel free to read the details for yourself and compare rather than rely on my memory or explanation.
In the end, either way you cut it, I think it shows that not all calories are the same. That higher protein diet affects weightloss and LBM -- that the higher protein groups lost either weight or presumably more fat and retain more LBM than their CHO/normal counterparts. And that was the thrust of my argument from the very beginning -- that not all calories are the same or result in the same weight loss for the same deficit. So looking at what you eat is important as well -- that it isn't just about how many total calories you consume.
Oh no, look what I found! It seems to be suggesting that A CALORIE IS A CALORIE :noway:
Effects of 4 weight-loss diets differing in fat, protein, and carbohydrate on fat mass, lean mass, visceral adipose tissue, and hepatic fat: results from the POUNDS LOST trial. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22258266
OBJECTIVE: We determined whether energy-reduced diets that emphasize fat, protein, or carbohydrate differentially reduce total, visceral, or hepatic fat or preserve lean mass.
DESIGN: In a subset of participants in a randomized trial of 4 weight-loss diets, body fat and lean mass (n = 424; by using dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry) and abdominal and hepatic fat (n = 165; by using computed tomography) were measured after 6 mo and 2 y. Changes from baseline were compared between assigned amounts of protein (25% compared with 15%) and fat (40% compared with 20%) and across 4 carbohydrate amounts (35% through 65%).
CONCLUSION: Participants lost more fat than lean mass after consumption of all diets, with no differences in changes in body composition, abdominal fat, or hepatic fat between assigned macronutrient amounts.
Was this study based on self-reported nutrient intake? Or was a strict diet regime followed?
From looking at the link quickly, it looks like it was the former and it even said that "Dietary goals were not fully met; self-reported contrasts were closer to 2% protein, 8% fat, and 14% carbohydrate at 6 mo and 1%, 7%, and 10%, respectively, at 2 y", though I'm not sure what the actual percentages are referencing.
One of the biggest pieces of advice many members give people is to closely track your calories -- weigh everything -- as most know that's one of, if not the biggest, source of error. So, if this was a self-reporting study, that looks like a large area of potential error that may undercut its ultimate conclusions.
So, what fully controlled dietary manipulation studies can YOU provide to back YOUR claims Lyndsey?
You're grasping at straws to avoid losing face. You will find just as many studies showing macronutrient distribution within reasonable limits has an effect as you will find studies showing little or no effect. The human organism is extremely complex and no doubt there is a lot going on that we are yet to discover. The other aspect is the difficulties of human dietary manipulation studies. (Actually, this is one of the things that irk me with regards to people who write diet books and cite lovely cherry picked studies to back their claims).
Anyways, are we going for the 500 for part 2.
does not matter….she is always right ..na na na na na na ….0 -
In for part 2 because...gifs...and everyone's educational resume.0
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In for part 2 because...gifs...and everyone's educational resume.
apparently you have to have an iq of 10,00 or greater to contribute to this thread….0 -
In for part 2 because...gifs...and everyone's educational resume.
apparently you have to have an iq of 10,00 or greater to contribute to this thread….
In that case, I would like to amend my previous post and instead state that I was just retested and scored a 10,01...
...so still in.0 -
In for part 2 because...gifs...and everyone's educational resume.
I'm only here for the beer. Mmmm beer. :drinker:0 -
This wasn't rolled in.
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Are self reported degrees and IQs sufficient or should we measure? :laugh:0
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apparently you have to have an iq of 10,00 or greater to contribute to this thread….
An IQ of 10 ? LOL - I assume you're not using the continental European convention of a "," as the decimal separator.0 -
Was this study based on self-reported nutrient intake? Or was a strict diet regime followed?
There was a published response to it at http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/95/3/535.long with some criticism of the methodology.
The article itself states "Despite the intensive behavioral counseling in our study, macronutrient targets were not fully met, which complicated the interpretation of our null result. We aimed to test a contrast in protein energy of 10% but achieved only an ∼3% contrast, which our trial was not powered to detect."0 -
Are self reported degrees and IQs sufficient or should we measure? :laugh:
Or is it the "quality" of the the degree that's important?
maybe quantity matters too? <head spinning> 0
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