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Conflicting Advice from Seemingly Knowledgeable People

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  • LiminalAscendance
    LiminalAscendance Posts: 489 Member
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    I don't worry one little iota about what the fitness gurus preach. I've heard those guys in person. They're often wrong and focus on silly things that make no difference. I heard a couple talking once and I thought, "I have probably forgotten more about muscle contraction than these two yahoos, put together, ever learned." They still had a lot less fat and a lot more muscle.
    And yet you're the one on a weightloss forum. Makes sense.
    I think many who read here don't listen to 'fitness gurus'. Well, I listen often but I usually roll my eyes. :smile:

    Of course, but that's a loaded term.

    The example used, however, was guys who didn't know what they were talking about, despite having "a lot less fat and a lot more muscle." I guess they must have been a couple of those "naturally thin" people I read about so often on here.

    And, of course, no example of what they said was used. Let's just disparage some gym guys.

    The fact of the matter is that the average in-shape person knows more than the average fat person about fitness, and if you're fat and know better...well, that's even worse, isn't it?
  • DerekVTX
    DerekVTX Posts: 287 Member
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    Thanks bud. If my Body Fat % calculator and my calculations are accurate I believe I have dropped 59 lbs of fat and gained 8 lbs of muscle in just under 6 months.
    Your calculator is not accurate. What you are describing isn't possible without using a boatload of PED's. Gaining 8 lbs of muscle while eating in a surplus is a pretty decent goal for 6 months. Gaining 8 lbs of muscle while at the same time losing almost 60 lbs is impossible. What kind of device are you using to track body fat?

    Just one of those bathroom scale/Body Fat Monitor's (Electrodes on the bottom). I assumed the muscle percentage (neglecting water percentages) but noting that when i started out my monitor told me I was at 270 lbs and 46.5% Body Fat (125.5 lbs of fat) and my current of 219.5 lbs and 32% (70 lbs of fat).....opps that would mean 55.5 lbs of fat loss and therefore 5 lbs of muscle gain in 6 months (Sorry I originally said 7)

    Maybe it is or maybe it isn't right, I am eating a lot of protien and there is no doubt that I am stronger, much better definition in my chest and my biceps and triceps are definately bigger........regardless I am feeling great and like you Vismal I plan to focus on the muscle gains once I get to my goal weight.
  • DerekVTX
    DerekVTX Posts: 287 Member
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    I am at a 7000 calorie a week defecit but eat a lot of protien.

    1. My biceps are much bigger now and my pecs are much more defined
    2. Arm curl bar has gone up from 70 to 90 lbs for a set of 10
    3. Fly machine has gone from 100 to 150 for a set of 10
    4. Tricept pushdown from 50 to 60 for a set of 10
    5. I can run fair distances now without getting out of breath.

    I'm stronger now.............think I have gained some muscle.

    Amazing progress.

    But I think you are confusing strength and endurance gains with mass gains. They are not the same thing.

    However you are significantly over weight or new to exercise you may be making small gains.

    Keep it going!

    Thanks bud. If my Body Fat % calculator and my calculations are accurate I believe I have dropped 59 lbs of fat and gained 8 lbs of muscle in just under 6 months.

    I really didn't mean to sound like an - - - .

    I meant IF you are significantly overweight. :-/

    No worries you didnt' sound like an azz (not too much anyways....LOL). There is no doubt that I was significantly overweight and still am.........for now :)
  • Hornsby
    Hornsby Posts: 10,322 Member
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    Maybe it is or maybe it isn't right, I am eating a lot of protien and there is no doubt that I am stronger, much better definition in my chest and my biceps and triceps are definately bigger........regardless I am feeling great and like you Vismal I plan to focus on the muscle gains once I get to my goal weight.

    Really that is all that matters. I think everyone knows that you can build some muscle in a deficit (noob gains, returning athletes, yada yada), but the real question is how much? I don't think anyone really knows that answer. I don't buy into the notion that others that don't fall into the categories of noob gains or returning athletes can't gain muscle on a deficit (mainly because I have seen it happen before, and have been watching it happen recently), but how much muscle is unknown and probably varies from individual to individual. I do think that no matter what, everyone will reach a point where they won't gain anymore muscle in a deficit.
  • WalkingAlong
    WalkingAlong Posts: 4,926 Member
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    The fact of the matter is that the average in-shape person knows more than the average fat person about fitness, and if you're fat and know better...well, that's even worse, isn't it?
    Not to be argumentative but I think that belief is how we wind up with people like Jillian Michaels and Gwyneth Paltrow, neither with any real education in the field, seen as diet/fitness gurus.
  • EvgeniZyntx
    EvgeniZyntx Posts: 24,208 Member
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    Stated like that, they are both true/false/incorrect (choose one) and yet remain excellent advice.

    Context. It matters.

    "You can't build muscle on a deficit." It's sorta true. Except even someone dieting will break that deficit when they eat. For the few hours after a meal that you are digesting, you aren't in a deficit. What that phrase, borrowed from bodybuilders, means is that one can't build optimal amounts of muscle on a deficit. You can build some, especially as a newbie or overweight person, especially if the deficit is small. Building muscle on a large cut is more difficult, requires intensive training and may lead to injury. And it's not the best strategy. If one want to build significant mass, it's on a bulking program that the best results will be reached. For someone trying to lose weight, it's sort of a non-sequitur challenge to "I making so many gainz". One isn't. You might be gaining a little bit of muscle but not significant and not long term, on a deficit.

    Weighing daily thing. Really has nothing to do with the above. Weight fluctuates massively for a variety of reasons that include water retention from diet, exercise, illness to changes in weight from hormones, undigested food, etc... Seeing small increases may be emotionally difficult for some people. They shouldn't be weighing themselves if it helps to stop. But data is data - if you have no emotional attachment to weighing yourself, daily is fine.

    Context.
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    Stated like that, they are both true/false/incorrect (choose one) and yet remain excellent advice.

    Context. It matters.

    "You can't build muscle on a deficit." It's sorta true. Except even someone dieting will break that deficit when they eat. For the few hours after a meal that you are digesting, you aren't in a deficit. What that phrase, borrowed from bodybuilders, means is that one can't build optimal amounts of muscle on a deficit. You can build some, especially as a newbie or overweight person, especially if the deficit is small. Building muscle on a large cut is more difficult, requires intensive training and may lead to injury. And it's not the best strategy. If one want to build significant mass, it's on a bulking program that the best results will be reached. For someone trying to lose weight, it's sort of a non-sequitur challenge to "I making so many gainz". One isn't. You might be gaining a little bit of muscle but not significant and not long term, on a deficit.

    Weighing daily thing. Really has nothing to do with the above. Weight fluctuates massively for a variety of reasons that include water retention from diet, exercise, illness to changes in weight from hormones, undigested food, etc... Seeing small increases may be emotionally difficult for some people. They shouldn't be weighing themselves if it helps to stop. But data is data - if you have no emotional attachment to weighing yourself, daily is fine.

    Context.


    ^^basically this.

    Also, you can go quite a while without scale loss but with fat loss due to water retention if you change up/start exercising. It can last up to about 6 weeks with some people.


    The other thing that people confuse...muscle =/= LBM.
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    I am at a 7000 calorie a week defecit but eat a lot of protien.

    1. My biceps are much bigger now and my pecs are much more defined
    2. Arm curl bar has gone up from 70 to 90 lbs for a set of 10
    3. Fly machine has gone from 100 to 150 for a set of 10
    4. Tricept pushdown from 50 to 60 for a set of 10
    5. I can run fair distances now without getting out of breath.

    I'm stronger now.............think I have gained some muscle.

    Amazing progress.

    But I think you are confusing strength and endurance gains with mass gains. They are not the same thing.

    However you are significantly over weight or new to exercise you may be making small gains.

    Keep it going!

    Thanks bud. If my Body Fat % calculator and my calculations are accurate I believe I have dropped 59 lbs of fat and gained 8 lbs of muscle in just under 6 months.

    I really didn't mean to sound like an - - - .

    I meant IF you are significantly overweight. :-/

    No worries you didnt' sound like an azz (not too much anyways....LOL). There is no doubt that I was significantly overweight and still am.........for now :)

    As has already been mentioned strength (or more precisely, how much weight you can lift) =/= muscle gain. Also, BIAs are very inaccurate for measuring body fat. However, based on your size, especially if you were new to lifting or detrained, there is no reason to believe that you could not have gained 5lb muscle over 6 months, even at a deficit. It is very reasonable, depending on context. Age, gender and genetics also play a large role.
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    Thanks bud. If my Body Fat % calculator and my calculations are accurate I believe I have dropped 59 lbs of fat and gained 8 lbs of muscle in just under 6 months.
    Your calculator is not accurate. What you are describing isn't possible without using a boatload of PED's. Gaining 8 lbs of muscle while eating in a surplus is a pretty decent goal for 6 months. Gaining 8 lbs of muscle while at the same time losing almost 60 lbs is impossible. What kind of device are you using to track body fat?

    It really depends:

    http://muscleevo.net/calorie-deficit/#.VAlvEPldWSo

    However, again, LBM =/= only muscle, so glycogen/water retention will come into play.
  • Liftng4Lis
    Liftng4Lis Posts: 15,151 Member
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    Per the scale, while weight training, you're so prone to retain water, the scale doesn't always move, but you do lose inches. Per the muscle, most important, is we're retaining more muscle than if no strength training were involved. (Plus getting stronger).