Pseudoscience and bad advice

77tes

I always go by the adage: If it's on the internet, it must be true. :laugh:

netchik

If you had diabetes or high cholesterol, or you were obese with bad asthma and wanted to start losing weight, you'd probably head to your GP as a first step. I would.

Then you would be a fool. When I was diagnosed with diabetes 2 years ago, the GP asked me (!) how much medication i should take. They haven't offered any advice, an eating plan or education. And do you know how I have managed to reverse my diabetes and high blood pressure? Research. Trial and error. Discussion with people on MFP with the same issues as me (like PCOS). And I've done that without my GP's help. When he has been blown away by my recurring test results showing everything is normal, he still won't take me off my meds. Because the NHS doesn't consider diabetes to be reversible.

lulabox

A lot of nitpicking later and rebuilding the world through modern medicine vs. alternative medicine, bashing GPs and the rest, I'm really pleased it's turned into an interesting discussion with lots of good points, and for the people out there who like me at the beginning were clueless and didn't know where to look or who to trust, I hope my initial post was useful to help you sort out sources of information.

Good luck everyone with your goals, however you may chose to reach them :flowerforyou:

LabRat529

What do you mean by "holistic"? Because some things that get thrown under the "holistic" label can be backed by research, some can not, and some haven't actually been all that tested so far. For instance, some medicinal herbs have been studied, and shown to have certain benefits. That's not voodoo....

NOTE: I cut your quote just to reduce the wall of text, but I'm really replying to the whole thing.

I know I'm not the "you" that you are referring to here, but I'd like to address this.

I will admit from the start that I am biased against anything holistic, any "natural remedies", and against most forms of "alternative medicine". I try to be objective, but the bias is there and I'd rather be upfront about that from the start.

The problem that I have with "holistic", "natural remedies", and "alternative medicines" is that they 1) aren't regulated in any way, 2) aren't subjected to the same intense scientific scrutiny that pharmaceuticals are subjected to, 3) there isn't anyone to 'punish' if the remedy damages your health or even worse, causes death (you can sue Glaxo-Smith-Kline, but who are you going to sue if you OD on Tyroamine because you were taking St. John's Wart and ate pickled herring.

I guess I'd add another point... people assume because something is 'natural' or 'holistic', that there is nothing dangerous about it, but that's not true at all. Many of the natural remedies ARE dangerous.

That said... yes, absolutely, some of those herbs have chemical compounds in them that interact with receptors in the body and cause some kind of effect. So I won't deny some of them work.

But we don't know what it's doing in the human body. We don't know why (IF?) it works. We don't know what it interacts with... we just don't know any of that because "holistic", "natural/alternative medicines" are based in large part on folk-lore, hear-say, and so on. It was handed down from generation to generation. People collected that info and put it together and added to it and it's just so impossible to know what's what.

So... I DO tend to think of it as voodoo until I see a scientific study or 10 that say, hey... yah... this really does work.

I believe in St. John's Wart, for the record :P That's because I know what it does... it has been scientifically studied.

LabRat529

If you had diabetes or high cholesterol, or you were obese with bad asthma and wanted to start losing weight, you'd probably head to your GP as a first step. I would.

Then you would be a fool. When I was diagnosed with diabetes 2 years ago, the GP asked me (!) how much medication i should take. They haven't offered any advice, an eating plan or education. And do you know how I have managed to reverse my diabetes and high blood pressure? Research. Trial and error. Discussion with people on MFP with the same issues as me (like PCOS). And I've done that without my GP's help. When he has been blown away by my recurring test results showing everything is normal, he still won't take me off my meds. Because the NHS doesn't consider diabetes to be reversible.

One bad experience with an MD does not mean they are all bad.

Usually, your doctor is a good place to start. Yes, you have to be a responsible patient too. You need to do your homework. You need to be assertive. But doctors have more education about the human body than the average person, so they are certainly a valid starting point.

I'd start with my doctor if something were wrong. Does that make ME a fool? I don't think it does. I understand my limitations. I understand the strengths and weaknesses of my education, and I have NO business trying to diagnose and treat myself for anything beyond a hang-nail.

kbw414

There are some very annoying, misinformed people on this site who claim they are nurses or fitness trainers, and practically have their resume in their signature (as if we should all be impressed). These types of people are usually the most outspoken and the most adamant that they are always right.

For anyone new to the site or inexperienced with using the internet on a frequent basis, I'd suggest being wary of these type of folks.

wxyz9

The problem is just when a novice who begins to read the literature then starts giving advice - it should be taken with the caveat that this person may not fully understand or appreciate the material. Understanding and assessing medical statistics isn't particularly easy

This. ^^

It's all well and good for me to read about clinical trials and studies but as someone who is less scientifically inclined I don't trust my ability to determine if a study was conducted properly, or my ability to accurately interpret the results. So, like it or not, I am at the mercy of those who are more educated. This is the curse of being born with limited gray matter :embarassed: I've accepted that the best I can do is to read whatever materials I can but with the understanding that my conclusion might not be accurate, and try to defer to the "experts" (which often means reading several opposing perspectives and trying to sort through the bias). Not ideal, but like everything else in life, we pays our money and we takes our choice.

jeccalou

While I will ageee that there is a lot of mis information and half truths abundent in the internetsphere about diet/nutrition/fitness/ disease prevention and management. I disagree with the assertion (intentional or not) that the average joe or common man isn't capable of of coming to "correct" or "scientific" truths on their own. I know how to read, evaluate information, experiment safely, and come to scientific outcomes ( within the scope of my own body). And whether intinial or not. your op insinuates that unless you have a phd after your name ( or are working towards it) you are not cabable of of a an intellectual,unbiased, scientific thought process. I kind of resent that.

And just for the record I have never met a gp I would take nutrition/fitness advice from. And every registered diatition I have interacted with has had jsuch a narrow scope of training and advice it was laughable.

Just my two cents

marsellient

Can't remember who said it but....

"Eat. Not too much. Mostly plants."

I try to keep this in mind-weight loss doesn't have to be rocket science! If it is--go see a doctor, you might have an underlying issue (like thyroid or hormone imbalance!)

That's from Michael Pollan's "Food Rules" and makes a lot of sense. Thanks for mentioning it. I think I'll go find that book again.

wxyz9

I disagree with the assertion (intentional or not) that the average joe or common man isn't capable of of coming to "correct" or "scientific" truths on their own.

I know this wasn't directed at me, but, I totally agree that the average person is capable of sussing out good information and coming to accurate conclusions when it comes to their general health. But I do think we have to do a little more "homework" and sort through more information to make an informed decision.

And whether intinial or not. your op insinuates that unless you have a phd after your name ( or are working towards it) you are not cabable of of a an intellectual,unbiased, scientific thought process.

I didn't get that impression from the OP, but I agree with the point in general. Like you, I've heard some pretty terrible advice coming from registered dieticians : /

veganbaum

What do you mean by "holistic"? Because some things that get thrown under the "holistic" label can be backed by research, some can not, and some haven't actually been all that tested so far. For instance, some medicinal herbs have been studied, and shown to have certain benefits. That's not voodoo....

NOTE: I cut your quote just to reduce the wall of text, but I'm really replying to the whole thing.

I know I'm not the "you" that you are referring to here, but I'd like to address this.

I will admit from the start that I am biased against anything holistic, any "natural remedies", and against most forms of "alternative medicine". I try to be objective, but the bias is there and I'd rather be upfront about that from the start.

The problem that I have with "holistic", "natural remedies", and "alternative medicines" is that they 1) aren't regulated in any way, 2) aren't subjected to the same intense scientific scrutiny that pharmaceuticals are subjected to, 3) there isn't anyone to 'punish' if the remedy damages your health or even worse, causes death (you can sue Glaxo-Smith-Kline, but who are you going to sue if you OD on Tyroamine because you were taking St. John's Wart and ate pickled herring.

I guess I'd add another point... people assume because something is 'natural' or 'holistic', that there is nothing dangerous about it, but that's not true at all. Many of the natural remedies ARE dangerous.

That said... yes, absolutely, some of those herbs have chemical compounds in them that interact with receptors in the body and cause some kind of effect. So I won't deny some of them work.

But we don't know what it's doing in the human body. We don't know why (IF?) it works. We don't know what it interacts with... we just don't know any of that because "holistic", "natural/alternative medicines" are based in large part on folk-lore, hear-say, and so on. It was handed down from generation to generation. People collected that info and put it together and added to it and it's just so impossible to know what's what.

So... I DO tend to think of it as voodoo until I see a scientific study or 10 that say, hey... yah... this really does work.

I believe in St. John's Wart, for the record :P That's because I know what it does... it has been scientifically studied.

I know you stated "natural remedies" and given your further reply am assuming you are speaking purely of ingested remedies and not of practitioners, because many alternative medicine practitioners are regulated and have to be licensed. Given that states control licensure certification can vary by state. I agree with many of your points, especially pointing out that natural remedies do not mean danger-free, but disagree in some ways with the association with folklore. Modern allopathic medicine has a very strong foothold. Having an automatic bias against natural remedies is similar to having an automatic bias against midwives (whether lay or certified), which largely exists due to the development of allopathic medicine. Allopaths have their place, but also have an amazing amount of control, something to keep in mind when thinking about alternative medicine practice and medicines.

LabRat529

I know you stated "natural remedies" and given your further reply am assuming you are speaking purely of ingested remedies and not of practitioners, because many alternative medicine practitioners are regulated and have to be licensed. Given that states control licensure certification can vary by state. I agree with many of your points, especially pointing out that natural remedies do not mean danger-free, but disagree in some ways with the association with folklore. Modern allopathic medicine has a very strong foothold. Having an automatic bias against natural remedies is similar to having an automatic bias against midwives (whether lay or certified), which largely exists due to the development of allopathic medicine. Allopaths have their place, but also have an amazing amount of control, something to keep in mind when thinking about alternative medicine practice and medicines.

My feeling about practitioners is mixed. My roommate is a chiropractor, which is 'alternative medicine' to most. I actually like her approach. She's very down-to-earth, very practical, and not in anyway a voodoo artist :P But I've heard of other chiropractors who take their art too far, claiming that chiropractic medicine can cure everything including things that have no relationship at all with the back (autism... depression... you get the idea). I've also been to a massage therapist, which is also 'alternative medicine' and I credit the woman with getting rid of some pretty debilitating headaches. I'm okay generally with the concept of midwives, though I'd never be comfy with the midwife in my house thing... I'd want to be in a hospital, just in case (midwife in the hospital is fine with me). I have a harder time with eastern medicine- acupuncture, acupressure, reki (sp?), and anything that deals with the 'energies' of the body. That seems a bit too much like 'magic' to me and makes me uncomfortable.

I see your point with the word 'folklore'. That was perhaps an unfair word for me to use. I let my bias get the best of me with my word choice.

SteveTries

On the issue of trusting your GP, both times I visited my doc about losing weight, I walked out with a pharmaceutical prescription. When I asked to see a dietician or have some nursing input into a weightloss programme, I was told they wouldn't tell me anything I didn't already know. Well since I couldn't lose the weight clearly what I knew was wrong- they were pretty much admitting what they advise doesn't work!

In the end I pretty much ignored what the NHS says is a healthy diet, upped my fat intake, slashed the carbs, and it is working. So whether it's pills or nutritional pie-charts, I definitely do NOT trust NHS advice.

The NHS is a fabulous organisation and does many, many wonderful things. They manage the health of our entire population have have a wealth of data and experience to draw upon.

Your GP is not "the NHS". All GP's are independant contractors who bill to the NHS for treating you. As the name suggests General Practitioners are generalists not specialists. They are also all different. Some will qualify and never pick up a medical journal again and will carry the teachings from 40 years ago through to retirement. Others give up their own time to keep up to date whilst others still participate in trying to move thinking forward.

Your GP seems a bit crap in the area of weightloss, but that doesn't mean every GP is like that, so I'd urge anyone to listen to the GP then decide for themselves if that advice makes sense.

oh and no, I don't work for the NHS, but I have received amazing service from them.

SteveTries

OP - you are from the UK yes?

i suggest you read confessions of a GP - available for 99p for the kindle if you have one.

sure opened my eyes to the NHS and its targets.

dont be such a sucker.

Why yes indeed, there is no way that a book written to make money would ever be sensationalist and unbalanced in order to be entertaining is there?

who is the sucker?
[is there a Smiley for Extreme Sarcasm?]

SteveTries

the NHS is tripe.

The End.

Is there a way to hide comments from people who speak utter tosh so I don't have to endure them?

bcattoes

If you had diabetes or high cholesterol, or you were obese with bad asthma and wanted to start losing weight, you'd probably head to your GP as a first step. I would.

Then you would be a fool. When I was diagnosed with diabetes 2 years ago, the GP asked me (!) how much medication i should take. They haven't offered any advice, an eating plan or education. And do you know how I have managed to reverse my diabetes and high blood pressure? Research. Trial and error. Discussion with people on MFP with the same issues as me (like PCOS). And I've done that without my GP's help. When he has been blown away by my recurring test results showing everything is normal, he still won't take me off my meds. Because the NHS doesn't consider diabetes to be reversible.

That is a shame, but in no way means that every doctor is like this and everyone who goes to a doctor is a fool. I know next to nothing about the NHS, but do you not have the option to switch doctors?

meerkat70

I think the point is more that your GP is a generalist (it's in the name!) whose job is, among other things, to direct you to more appropriate specialists.

ironanimal

oh and no, I don't work for the NHS, but I have received amazing service from them.

The NHS near killed me several times in my early youth, and have endangered my life since by using a sedative I was allergic to, have come to the conclusion that my blood pressure issues in my mid teens were 'something I'd grow out of' (and one of the reasons I'm now overweight), failed to diagnose my mothers stomach condition for over 2 years, induced a coma in my father that left him mentally damaged (and he died soon after) and my GP didn't bat an eyelid when I went in recently at the 124.9kg of me, because they were running a satisfaction survey and they're frightened of upsetting their patients.

Do not tell me that the NHS is not a load of *kitten*.

meerkat70

oh and no, I don't work for the NHS, but I have received amazing service from them.

The NHS near killed me several times in my early youth, and have endangered my life since by using a sedative I was allergic to, have come to the conclusion that my blood pressure issues in my mid teens were 'something I'd grow out of' (and one of the reasons I'm now overweight), failed to diagnose my mothers stomach condition for over 2 years, induced a coma in my father that left him mentally damaged (and he died soon after) and my GP didn't bat an eyelid when I went in recently at the 124.9kg of me, because they were running a satisfaction survey and they're frightened of upsetting their patients.

Do not tell me that the NHS is not a load of *kitten*.

Problems associated with medical negligence occur everywhere. This is tragic, and I'm truly sorry that you've been so disproportionately affected by these. But they're not unique to the NHS. Live in a country where there isn't any form of social medicine, or with a two tier health service, and perhaps we'll talk then about whether public healthcare is really a bad thing.

I took a woman into a county hospital, 15 years ago. I'd found her on the street with a head wound. I think she'd been attacked and raped, judging from the state of her. We sat in the hospital, and she bled, and bled and bled, for hours, in a hospital corridor alongside what seemed like hundreds of other bleeding, groaning, puking patients. She died, unattended, while I held her hand.

A family member of mine was recently diagnosed with cancer, while in the US. her insurance didn't cover it, so guess what? Nobody wants to treat her. I guess she'll die of not having enough money. No-one should have to do that.

A friend of mine was crying over the phone to me a few months ago. Her father in law had kidney failure. He was on dialysis. His insurance ran out, his family double mortgaged the house to continue paying for his treatment. Eventually they had to make the decision to let this otherwise healthy man who they loved die because they couldn't carry on paying the bills. Imagine having to make that choice....

3 different countries. No NHS. Bad stories.

THe NHS has its flaws, They're largely flaws associated with underfunding. Largely a consequence of the reality that we pay less in national insurance (which remember covers a whole range of insurances not just health) than most people in countries with a two tier or private health care service pay *just* for healthcare. If we put more into it, it would be a far better system.

dennydifferent

The NHS is a fabulous organisation and does many, many wonderful things. They manage the health of our entire population have have a wealth of data and experience to draw upon.

Your GP is not "the NHS". All GP's are independant contractors who bill to the NHS for treating you. As the name suggests General Practitioners are generalists not specialists. They are also all different. Some will qualify and never pick up a medical journal again and will carry the teachings from 40 years ago through to retirement. Others give up their own time to keep up to date whilst others still participate in trying to move thinking forward.

Your GP seems a bit crap in the area of weightloss, but that doesn't mean every GP is like that, so I'd urge anyone to listen to the GP then decide for themselves if that advice makes sense.

oh and no, I don't work for the NHS, but I have received amazing service from them.

But it is "the NHS" dietary advice that I have learned to ignore, not that of my GP, since he didn't give me any. Such faulty advice is right there on "the NHS" website, not my GP's website. How would you prefer I refer to this? I have learned to ignore the advice of the people who write the text that goes on the website that purports to be in the ownership of the NHS? Come on, nitpicker much?

Perhaps you made the leap that I was criticising the NHS as an institution or idea when I criticised the help and advice I've received. That's an assumption, and an incorrect one. The idea of an NHS is wonderful, but it can only ever be as good as the advice it doles out. In the area of diet and weight loss, I contend that this is almost uniformly crap. Since I cannot conceivably visit every single doctor and dietician in the NHS, I must speak from my experience of half a dozen or so, all of whom, on the issue of my weight (a longstanding issue covering several GP surgeries) have been terrible. I'm very glad you had a good experience with the NHS. I generally have too. Their advice on diet is still awful.