Veterans as "Heroes"
Replies
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Here's something else I wanted to add to this. We got side tracked on what heroic deeeds are and aren't, who is and isn't. We could debate the merits of each individual soldier for the next 100 years, and honestly, you wouldn't see me defending too many paper pushers in the military as "heroes" either.
But that isn't my issue. We all agreed about this Chris's dumb tiiming. Fine. But I don't think that this is the crux of his argument. Actually, I think their is a certain amount of intellectual dishonesty and cowardice coming from these statements. He wasn't talking about not applying the word "hero" to every fallen soldier because it cheapens the term for those who threw themselves on gernades or did something actually and completely heroic. He was worried about the false patriotism and nationalism of blanketly calling all enlisted people heroes because it somehow gave indirect approval to a war he no longer/never approved of.
So if this is his opinion, and yours, and the criteria of using the word "hero" should be dependent on the justification of the war, if you are completely against it, think it unjust, evil, misguided, ect., then how can you claim that any sacrifice a military man or woman makes is heroic? He made the word, as have conservatives in the past, political. If you are dead set agains the war and a guy throws himself on a grenade to save his men and you think calling soldiers heroes gives approval to the wars......then great heroic deeds whould garner even more support for the wars.
I'll take it even a step further and really get out there. The Nazi's had heros. Now they, of course were, their heroes, but did heroic deeds. No one could argue that from a historical perspective. But we call them the opposite because they were the enemy....villains. Nationalism does that. But if I can be unbiased and admit that Nazis in fact had heroic people in their armies, it's not tacit approval of the Nazi party, is it?
It just sort of worries me that if you are doing something heroic, and the barometer being set too judge those deeds is a persons political feelings about the appropriateness of the war, then how long until we go from hero to villain?
I jumped into this debate late, and my primary debate wasn't centered on the initial topic. I had no intention of jumping in until I read the argument comparing soldiers, police, and firemen. I found a flaw in the argument, and that is where my debate lies. I am opposed to war, generally. I think it has a time and place that is appropriate, and I've disagreed with our current conflicts from the start. That being said, I still fully acknowledge that many men and women in our armed services are heroes.
The cheapening part-- that was my argument for why I felt the way I did. Not Chris'. I know that, that's why I'm debating from that perspective. I didn't say I agree with the man, my main debate was with what we can and cannot call a hero, and whether that term automatically applies to one simply because they serve. That's my apolitical stance on heroism.
I don't think that the definition of hero is dependent upon how just the conflict was. People who were never in combat can be heroes. Had I managed to actually save anyone by banging on doors at 3AM because of a fire, I'd be a big damn hero. Combat has nothing to do with the definition of hero. But using the term hero to justify future wars and instill nationalistic pride, that's a very real issue. And by calling ALL soldiers heroes as if "hero" was in the job description, that language lends itself to unnecessary nationalistic pride. Just because I don't think they are all heroes doesn't mean I don't think that most of them are.
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I have never seen army men as heroes. Never.
The wars are largely political, and innocent people pay the price for the greed of America and the UK.
I feel for the men who get killed, and I guess they're brave for going, but I don't see them as heroes.
And I don't think this guy should have apologised.
Wow, you do realize that soldiers don't decided what wars we are in and what orders they are given right? They are bound and forced to carrie out their orders whether they argree with them or not or they could be court marshalled and imprisoned.
Do you have any idea what life is like for a soldier and their family? Imagine the worst possible employer scenarios: you don't get your paycheck, you don't get you benefits set up how you are supposed to. You can't go to a lawyer or the government for help because THEY are your employer. Not to mention their entire life serves the post or base they live on. Their housing, food, everything! If a woman gets robbed off base/post and don't have their ID, and their husband is deployed, do you know what she has to go through just to get back inside her home. If a woman is down to her last dollar and the government screws up her husbands payday, how is she going to get food for her kids. It is a mess.
For those who live off base/post, they have the fear of everyday knowing their spouse could be killed, and the chance of that happening is high. Just yesterday we had a 23 year old Marine die. He was married for 7 months. Having to go months or a year or more without seeing their spouse and the hardships that come with that for their children.
These people choose, for whatever reason, to take this risk and enter a rough career and life. Before anyone bashes what a military person does, I dare them to spend one day on the job.
Oh for God's sake.
Look. I do not have some stupid vendetta against people in the army, and nor do I automatically hate them.
But I have never seen them as brave. Get over it - not everyone fawns over soldiers. And, yes, I understand they are following orders but following orders doesn't mean you're not accountable for your actions. I don't think Manson's followers are unaccountable because they were following orders, okay?
"Do you have any idea what life is like for a soldier and their family? Imagine the worst possible employer scenarios: you don't get your paycheck, you don't get you benefits set up how you are supposed to. You can't go to a lawyer or the government for help because THEY are your employer. Not to mention their entire life serves the post or base they live on. Their housing, food, everything! If a woman gets robbed off base/post and don't have their ID, and their husband is deployed, do you know what she has to go through just to get back inside her home. If a woman is down to her last dollar and the government screws up her husbands payday, how is she going to get food for her kids. It is a mess. <-- what has that got to do with me not thinking they're heroes?"
For those who live off base/post, they have the fear of everyday knowing their spouse could be killed, and the chance of that happening is high. Just yesterday we had a 23 year old Marine die. He was married for 7 months. Having to go months or a year or more without seeing their spouse and the hardships that come with that for their children.
These people choose, for whatever reason, to take this risk and enter a rough career and life. Before anyone bashes what a military person does, I dare them to spend one day on the job.
Again, I have empathy for their spouses, kid's etc, but these people CHOOSE to go into the army. They are not forced to, like in WW1 & 2.
I see doctor's as heroes, not people whose job is to kill and follow orders of a shady Government.
If that upsets you, that's your problem - not mine. But don't try and guilt trip me because I don't share America's fetish with soldiers. I was not raised in a family that fawns over Government pawns.
I can see what you are saying in some of these responses, but there are a few points I would like to debate. I can respect that you are not some soldier sniffer. But a comparison to Charles Manson giving his followers orders is a far cry from the orders modern soldiers get in 99.9% of cases. In modern warfare, especially the two wars going on right not, American soldiers are given a code of conduct and Rules of Engagement to follow.
Screw it up and you are likely to be charged under articles of the UCMJ. For instance, one of our rules was not only shooting unarmed civilians which is a no-brainer, but we could not shoot a hostile who was armed unless he was actively aiming a weapon at us. Technically, he could fire a rocket, throw down his weapon and run, and we would no longer be able to shoot because he was unarmed.
You say you don't see them as brave, and did you mean that blankely? I can understand that you might not feel they are heroic and that a Navy accountant isn't all that brave, but I think you would have to consider that kicking down a door with several guys armed with AK-47s is not exactly an act of cowardice.
I also think that Doctors are heroes. But you have to consider that some doctors go into it for prestige and money. A plastic surgeon who fixes childrens cleft pallets for free in Africa is a hero. But would you consider a surgeon who does breast implants for rich women to be a hero? Same premise.
Shady goverment? I agree. But calling all soldiers pawns is a strong statement. I think that most people would have to agree that the inital invasion of Afghanistan and trying to rob Al Queida of a safe haven was a good thing. I myself have always had mixed feelings about the Iraq war, so I understand anyone else who questioned or still questioned that war. I think a healthy distrust of the government is good, but I think that, myself included, that we can get cynical to the point that we consider all government actions to be an evil conspiracy even when they are trying to do something right.0 -
I also think that Doctors are heroes. But you have to consider that some doctors go into it for prestige and money. A plastic surgeon who fixes childrens cleft pallets for free in Africa is a hero. But would you consider a surgeon who does breast implants for rich women to be a hero? Same premise.
Nicely played.0 -
I agree with this. This can apply to military people, too. The ones who join to protect and serve, fight in battle, save people's lives, risk their own, lose their own, etc are heroes to me. The ones who join the military because they don't know what to do with their lives after high school, hope to have a desk job and never see combat, who don't even have an ounce of patriotism are not heroes to me JUST because they're in the military (yes, I know some of these and wouldn't consider them heroes).I also think that Doctors are heroes. But you have to consider that some doctors go into it for prestige and money. A plastic surgeon who fixes childrens cleft pallets for free in Africa is a hero. But would you consider a surgeon who does breast implants for rich women to be a hero? Same premise.0 -
I agree with this. This can apply to military people, too. The ones who join to protect and serve, fight in battle, save people's lives, risk their own, lose their own, etc are heroes to me. The ones who join the military because they don't know what to do with their lives after high school, hope to have a desk job and never see combat, who don't even have an ounce of patriotism are not heroes to me JUST because they're in the military (yes, I know some of these and wouldn't consider them heroes).I also think that Doctors are heroes. But you have to consider that some doctors go into it for prestige and money. A plastic surgeon who fixes childrens cleft pallets for free in Africa is a hero. But would you consider a surgeon who does breast implants for rich women to be a hero? Same premise.
I still have to disagree. What about the soldiers who are MIA or POW? We don't know what reason they joined for. Chosing service over jail time, because they got their gf pregnant, or they were drafted in Vietnam. Military and civilian archaeologists are still finding American soldiers in Hawaii, they are being dug up in Vietnam and Korea. There are soldiers my age in the middle east who have suffered unimaginable torture and been killed or held prisoner and their families never get closure. My point is, these people sign up for various reasons but Wars do not discriminate when it comes to who they claim or who has to fight.
I just recently learned about a family friend who was hospitalized last year for a mental breakdown. He is a Marine and good friend of my brother but what I consider a "bro". He has never been deployed. Constantly posting pictures of his naked muscles all over his facebook. Being a typical 21 year old with the "frat boy" mentality. We didn't know why he was hospitalized other then he got fired from his job, apparently for repeatedly asking some girl out. Apparently what happend was recently unclassifred and his hospitalization was a result of an incredible secret mission. His family was told he was going for special training at a base here in the U.S. He was actually on mission involing a small unit of talented Marines and also 1 of 2 out of about a dozen to make it back home. After years of viewing this kid as a *kitten* (for lack of a better word) I've comletely changed my mind about him. Just knowing he joined thinking it would make him cool and manly and realizing what he had done and how few people are selected to do these kind of things was a big eye opener to me.0 -
I have never seen army men as heroes. Never.
The wars are largely political, and innocent people pay the price for the greed of America and the UK.
I feel for the men who get killed, and I guess they're brave for going, but I don't see them as heroes.
And I don't think this guy should have apologised.
Wow, you do realize that soldiers don't decided what wars we are in and what orders they are given right? They are bound and forced to carrie out their orders whether they argree with them or not or they could be court marshalled and imprisoned.
Do you have any idea what life is like for a soldier and their family? Imagine the worst possible employer scenarios: you don't get your paycheck, you don't get you benefits set up how you are supposed to. You can't go to a lawyer or the government for help because THEY are your employer. Not to mention their entire life serves the post or base they live on. Their housing, food, everything! If a woman gets robbed off base/post and don't have their ID, and their husband is deployed, do you know what she has to go through just to get back inside her home. If a woman is down to her last dollar and the government screws up her husbands payday, how is she going to get food for her kids. It is a mess.
For those who live off base/post, they have the fear of everyday knowing their spouse could be killed, and the chance of that happening is high. Just yesterday we had a 23 year old Marine die. He was married for 7 months. Having to go months or a year or more without seeing their spouse and the hardships that come with that for their children.
These people choose, for whatever reason, to take this risk and enter a rough career and life. Before anyone bashes what a military person does, I dare them to spend one day on the job.
Oh for God's sake.
Look. I do not have some stupid vendetta against people in the army, and nor do I automatically hate them.
But I have never seen them as brave. Get over it - not everyone fawns over soldiers. And, yes, I understand they are following orders but following orders doesn't mean you're not accountable for your actions. I don't think Manson's followers are unaccountable because they were following orders, okay?
"Do you have any idea what life is like for a soldier and their family? Imagine the worst possible employer scenarios: you don't get your paycheck, you don't get you benefits set up how you are supposed to. You can't go to a lawyer or the government for help because THEY are your employer. Not to mention their entire life serves the post or base they live on. Their housing, food, everything! If a woman gets robbed off base/post and don't have their ID, and their husband is deployed, do you know what she has to go through just to get back inside her home. If a woman is down to her last dollar and the government screws up her husbands payday, how is she going to get food for her kids. It is a mess. <-- what has that got to do with me not thinking they're heroes?"
For those who live off base/post, they have the fear of everyday knowing their spouse could be killed, and the chance of that happening is high. Just yesterday we had a 23 year old Marine die. He was married for 7 months. Having to go months or a year or more without seeing their spouse and the hardships that come with that for their children.
These people choose, for whatever reason, to take this risk and enter a rough career and life. Before anyone bashes what a military person does, I dare them to spend one day on the job.
Again, I have empathy for their spouses, kid's etc, but these people CHOOSE to go into the army. They are not forced to, like in WW1 & 2.
I see doctor's as heroes, not people whose job is to kill and follow orders of a shady Government.
If that upsets you, that's your problem - not mine. But don't try and guilt trip me because I don't share America's fetish with soldiers. I was not raised in a family that fawns over Government pawns.
I can see what you are saying in some of these responses, but there are a few points I would like to debate. I can respect that you are not some soldier sniffer. But a comparison to Charles Manson giving his followers orders is a far cry from the orders modern soldiers get in 99.9% of cases. In modern warfare, especially the two wars going on right not, American soldiers are given a code of conduct and Rules of Engagement to follow.
Screw it up and you are likely to be charged under articles of the UCMJ. For instance, one of our rules was not only shooting unarmed civilians which is a no-brainer, but we could not shoot a hostile who was armed unless he was actively aiming a weapon at us. Technically, he could fire a rocket, throw down his weapon and run, and we would no longer be able to shoot because he was unarmed.
You say you don't see them as brave, and did you mean that blankely? I can understand that you might not feel they are heroic and that a Navy accountant isn't all that brave, but I think you would have to consider that kicking down a door with several guys armed with AK-47s is not exactly an act of cowardice.
I also think that Doctors are heroes. But you have to consider that some doctors go into it for prestige and money. A plastic surgeon who fixes childrens cleft pallets for free in Africa is a hero. But would you consider a surgeon who does breast implants for rich women to be a hero? Same premise.
Shady goverment? I agree. But calling all soldiers pawns is a strong statement. I think that most people would have to agree that the inital invasion of Afghanistan and trying to rob Al Queida of a safe haven was a good thing. I myself have always had mixed feelings about the Iraq war, so I understand anyone else who questioned or still questioned that war. I think a healthy distrust of the government is good, but I think that, myself included, that we can get cynical to the point that we consider all government actions to be an evil conspiracy even when they are trying to do something right.
I respect your reply, and I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying. I guess I'm not coming across right - I've never had anything against soldiers, specifically, nor have I ever not respected them in their death. However, I have never bought into the whole patrioism thing of 'our boys', nor have I ever agreed with the war. I'm kind of the odd one out, because I come from an environment that hates police, Government, army and anything percieved as authority, whereas I defend police, and don't despise the army.
When I say I don't see them as brave, I don't mean I don't recognise the bravado needed to enter a situation you know you're likely to not come home physically or mentally damaged from, or dead. Instead, I mean, I never automatically think they're brave, or apply it as a blanket statement to all. I guess it's like, I see two types of brave - brave I respect, that I think is inspiring - like Aron Ralston, or firefighters and the recognition of bravado that I know wouldn't be easy - IE - being in the army.
As for the war, well, it's never sat right with me. If it was supposed to be of help to the people, I don't understand why millions of the people have been killed. Or why they will stop at nothing to get this Bin Laden character (I know he's now apparently dead), even if it means killing civilians. It's just ironic that the only seem to help countries with material goods, like oil. It's just full of holes, and conspiracies, and it makes my head swim.
Whether or not the war was what the Government said it was, miillions of civilians are dead, their lives ruined, WE'RE in a recession, making cuts on our services while they spend money on war, and the soldiers suffer too. It's all one big cluster****.
Did I make ANY sense at all? LOL.0 -
I have never seen army men as heroes. Never.
The wars are largely political, and innocent people pay the price for the greed of America and the UK.
I feel for the men who get killed, and I guess they're brave for going, but I don't see them as heroes.
And I don't think this guy should have apologised.
Wow, you do realize that soldiers don't decided what wars we are in and what orders they are given right? They are bound and forced to carrie out their orders whether they argree with them or not or they could be court marshalled and imprisoned.
Do you have any idea what life is like for a soldier and their family? Imagine the worst possible employer scenarios: you don't get your paycheck, you don't get you benefits set up how you are supposed to. You can't go to a lawyer or the government for help because THEY are your employer. Not to mention their entire life serves the post or base they live on. Their housing, food, everything! If a woman gets robbed off base/post and don't have their ID, and their husband is deployed, do you know what she has to go through just to get back inside her home. If a woman is down to her last dollar and the government screws up her husbands payday, how is she going to get food for her kids. It is a mess.
For those who live off base/post, they have the fear of everyday knowing their spouse could be killed, and the chance of that happening is high. Just yesterday we had a 23 year old Marine die. He was married for 7 months. Having to go months or a year or more without seeing their spouse and the hardships that come with that for their children.
These people choose, for whatever reason, to take this risk and enter a rough career and life. Before anyone bashes what a military person does, I dare them to spend one day on the job.
Oh for God's sake.
Look. I do not have some stupid vendetta against people in the army, and nor do I automatically hate them.
But I have never seen them as brave. Get over it - not everyone fawns over soldiers. And, yes, I understand they are following orders but following orders doesn't mean you're not accountable for your actions. I don't think Manson's followers are unaccountable because they were following orders, okay?
"Do you have any idea what life is like for a soldier and their family? Imagine the worst possible employer scenarios: you don't get your paycheck, you don't get you benefits set up how you are supposed to. You can't go to a lawyer or the government for help because THEY are your employer. Not to mention their entire life serves the post or base they live on. Their housing, food, everything! If a woman gets robbed off base/post and don't have their ID, and their husband is deployed, do you know what she has to go through just to get back inside her home. If a woman is down to her last dollar and the government screws up her husbands payday, how is she going to get food for her kids. It is a mess. <-- what has that got to do with me not thinking they're heroes?"
For those who live off base/post, they have the fear of everyday knowing their spouse could be killed, and the chance of that happening is high. Just yesterday we had a 23 year old Marine die. He was married for 7 months. Having to go months or a year or more without seeing their spouse and the hardships that come with that for their children.
These people choose, for whatever reason, to take this risk and enter a rough career and life. Before anyone bashes what a military person does, I dare them to spend one day on the job.
Again, I have empathy for their spouses, kid's etc, but these people CHOOSE to go into the army. They are not forced to, like in WW1 & 2.
I see doctor's as heroes, not people whose job is to kill and follow orders of a shady Government.
If that upsets you, that's your problem - not mine. But don't try and guilt trip me because I don't share America's fetish with soldiers. I was not raised in a family that fawns over Government pawns.
I can see what you are saying in some of these responses, but there are a few points I would like to debate. I can respect that you are not some soldier sniffer. But a comparison to Charles Manson giving his followers orders is a far cry from the orders modern soldiers get in 99.9% of cases. In modern warfare, especially the two wars going on right not, American soldiers are given a code of conduct and Rules of Engagement to follow.
Screw it up and you are likely to be charged under articles of the UCMJ. For instance, one of our rules was not only shooting unarmed civilians which is a no-brainer, but we could not shoot a hostile who was armed unless he was actively aiming a weapon at us. Technically, he could fire a rocket, throw down his weapon and run, and we would no longer be able to shoot because he was unarmed.
You say you don't see them as brave, and did you mean that blankely? I can understand that you might not feel they are heroic and that a Navy accountant isn't all that brave, but I think you would have to consider that kicking down a door with several guys armed with AK-47s is not exactly an act of cowardice.
I also think that Doctors are heroes. But you have to consider that some doctors go into it for prestige and money. A plastic surgeon who fixes childrens cleft pallets for free in Africa is a hero. But would you consider a surgeon who does breast implants for rich women to be a hero? Same premise.
Shady goverment? I agree. But calling all soldiers pawns is a strong statement. I think that most people would have to agree that the inital invasion of Afghanistan and trying to rob Al Queida of a safe haven was a good thing. I myself have always had mixed feelings about the Iraq war, so I understand anyone else who questioned or still questioned that war. I think a healthy distrust of the government is good, but I think that, myself included, that we can get cynical to the point that we consider all government actions to be an evil conspiracy even when they are trying to do something right.
I respect your reply, and I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying. I guess I'm not coming across right - I've never had anything against soldiers, specifically, nor have I ever not respected them in their death. However, I have never bought into the whole patrioism thing of 'our boys', nor have I ever agreed with the war. I'm kind of the odd one out, because I come from an environment that hates police, Government, army and anything percieved as authority, whereas I defend police, and don't despise the army.
When I say I don't see them as brave, I don't mean I don't recognise the bravado needed to enter a situation you know you're likely to not come home physically or mentally damaged from, or dead. Instead, I mean, I never automatically think they're brave, or apply it as a blanket statement to all. I guess it's like, I see two types of brave - brave I respect, that I think is inspiring - like Aron Ralston, or firefighters and the recognition of bravado that I know wouldn't be easy - IE - being in the army.
As for the war, well, it's never sat right with me. If it was supposed to be of help to the people, I don't understand why millions of the people have been killed. Or why they will stop at nothing to get this Bin Laden character (I know he's now apparently dead), even if it means killing civilians. It's just ironic that the only seem to help countries with material goods, like oil. It's just full of holes, and conspiracies, and it makes my head swim.
Whether or not the war was what the Government said it was, miillions of civilians are dead, their lives ruined, WE'RE in a recession, making cuts on our services while they spend money on war, and the soldiers suffer too. It's all one big cluster****.
Did I make ANY sense at all? LOL.
I completely agree with your view on the war. In my opinion we shouldn't have troops anywhere unless we have a formal declaration of war. Period. I also don't feel like we should be policing the world, "helping" other countries sort out their problemts or getting involved when other countries want to duke it out. Let them kill each other and call it Darwinism. I don't think we should be spending so much money on aid for foreign lands when our own government is on the brink of an abyss.
Still, those who serve don't chose where they go or what they do.0 -
I have never seen army men as heroes. Never.
The wars are largely political, and innocent people pay the price for the greed of America and the UK.
I feel for the men who get killed, and I guess they're brave for going, but I don't see them as heroes.
And I don't think this guy should have apologised.
Wow, you do realize that soldiers don't decided what wars we are in and what orders they are given right? They are bound and forced to carrie out their orders whether they argree with them or not or they could be court marshalled and imprisoned.
Do you have any idea what life is like for a soldier and their family? Imagine the worst possible employer scenarios: you don't get your paycheck, you don't get you benefits set up how you are supposed to. You can't go to a lawyer or the government for help because THEY are your employer. Not to mention their entire life serves the post or base they live on. Their housing, food, everything! If a woman gets robbed off base/post and don't have their ID, and their husband is deployed, do you know what she has to go through just to get back inside her home. If a woman is down to her last dollar and the government screws up her husbands payday, how is she going to get food for her kids. It is a mess.
For those who live off base/post, they have the fear of everyday knowing their spouse could be killed, and the chance of that happening is high. Just yesterday we had a 23 year old Marine die. He was married for 7 months. Having to go months or a year or more without seeing their spouse and the hardships that come with that for their children.
These people choose, for whatever reason, to take this risk and enter a rough career and life. Before anyone bashes what a military person does, I dare them to spend one day on the job.
Oh for God's sake.
Look. I do not have some stupid vendetta against people in the army, and nor do I automatically hate them.
But I have never seen them as brave. Get over it - not everyone fawns over soldiers. And, yes, I understand they are following orders but following orders doesn't mean you're not accountable for your actions. I don't think Manson's followers are unaccountable because they were following orders, okay?
"Do you have any idea what life is like for a soldier and their family? Imagine the worst possible employer scenarios: you don't get your paycheck, you don't get you benefits set up how you are supposed to. You can't go to a lawyer or the government for help because THEY are your employer. Not to mention their entire life serves the post or base they live on. Their housing, food, everything! If a woman gets robbed off base/post and don't have their ID, and their husband is deployed, do you know what she has to go through just to get back inside her home. If a woman is down to her last dollar and the government screws up her husbands payday, how is she going to get food for her kids. It is a mess. <-- what has that got to do with me not thinking they're heroes?"
For those who live off base/post, they have the fear of everyday knowing their spouse could be killed, and the chance of that happening is high. Just yesterday we had a 23 year old Marine die. He was married for 7 months. Having to go months or a year or more without seeing their spouse and the hardships that come with that for their children.
These people choose, for whatever reason, to take this risk and enter a rough career and life. Before anyone bashes what a military person does, I dare them to spend one day on the job.
Again, I have empathy for their spouses, kid's etc, but these people CHOOSE to go into the army. They are not forced to, like in WW1 & 2.
I see doctor's as heroes, not people whose job is to kill and follow orders of a shady Government.
If that upsets you, that's your problem - not mine. But don't try and guilt trip me because I don't share America's fetish with soldiers. I was not raised in a family that fawns over Government pawns.
I can see what you are saying in some of these responses, but there are a few points I would like to debate. I can respect that you are not some soldier sniffer. But a comparison to Charles Manson giving his followers orders is a far cry from the orders modern soldiers get in 99.9% of cases. In modern warfare, especially the two wars going on right not, American soldiers are given a code of conduct and Rules of Engagement to follow.
Screw it up and you are likely to be charged under articles of the UCMJ. For instance, one of our rules was not only shooting unarmed civilians which is a no-brainer, but we could not shoot a hostile who was armed unless he was actively aiming a weapon at us. Technically, he could fire a rocket, throw down his weapon and run, and we would no longer be able to shoot because he was unarmed.
You say you don't see them as brave, and did you mean that blankely? I can understand that you might not feel they are heroic and that a Navy accountant isn't all that brave, but I think you would have to consider that kicking down a door with several guys armed with AK-47s is not exactly an act of cowardice.
I also think that Doctors are heroes. But you have to consider that some doctors go into it for prestige and money. A plastic surgeon who fixes childrens cleft pallets for free in Africa is a hero. But would you consider a surgeon who does breast implants for rich women to be a hero? Same premise.
Shady goverment? I agree. But calling all soldiers pawns is a strong statement. I think that most people would have to agree that the inital invasion of Afghanistan and trying to rob Al Queida of a safe haven was a good thing. I myself have always had mixed feelings about the Iraq war, so I understand anyone else who questioned or still questioned that war. I think a healthy distrust of the government is good, but I think that, myself included, that we can get cynical to the point that we consider all government actions to be an evil conspiracy even when they are trying to do something right.
I respect your reply, and I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying. I guess I'm not coming across right - I've never had anything against soldiers, specifically, nor have I ever not respected them in their death. However, I have never bought into the whole patrioism thing of 'our boys', nor have I ever agreed with the war. I'm kind of the odd one out, because I come from an environment that hates police, Government, army and anything percieved as authority, whereas I defend police, and don't despise the army.
When I say I don't see them as brave, I don't mean I don't recognise the bravado needed to enter a situation you know you're likely to not come home physically or mentally damaged from, or dead. Instead, I mean, I never automatically think they're brave, or apply it as a blanket statement to all. I guess it's like, I see two types of brave - brave I respect, that I think is inspiring - like Aron Ralston, or firefighters and the recognition of bravado that I know wouldn't be easy - IE - being in the army.
As for the war, well, it's never sat right with me. If it was supposed to be of help to the people, I don't understand why millions of the people have been killed. Or why they will stop at nothing to get this Bin Laden character (I know he's now apparently dead), even if it means killing civilians. It's just ironic that the only seem to help countries with material goods, like oil. It's just full of holes, and conspiracies, and it makes my head swim.
Whether or not the war was what the Government said it was, miillions of civilians are dead, their lives ruined, WE'RE in a recession, making cuts on our services while they spend money on war, and the soldiers suffer too. It's all one big cluster****.
Did I make ANY sense at all? LOL.
I completely agree with your view on the war. In my opinion we shouldn't have troops anywhere unless we have a formal declaration of war. Period. I also don't feel like we should be policing the world, "helping" other countries sort out their problemts or getting involved when other countries want to duke it out. Let them kill each other and call it Darwinism. I don't think we should be spending so much money on aid for foreign lands when our own government is on the brink of an abyss.
Still, those who serve don't chose where they go or what they do.
You said it perfectly
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I know too many people touted as "heroes who volunteered" who I subtitle with "knocked up a chick out of high school, couldn't even hold down a retail job." It is a job, you are getting paid because you may get put into a situation where you get shot at. I'm not sure where the "hero" part applies.
That said, ordinary citizens who were drafted during war time were heroes. It wasn't their job to fight, but they went to serve when needed.
I believe you have either not served yourself or not worked with those who do. I have done one and am currently doing the other, and I believe your position is flawed because of a lack of information. I think what you and Mr. Hayes fail to understand is that joining the military isn't the same thing as "a job." In civilian life, you can quit your job if you want. You can get a tattoo anywhere on your body that you desire. You can get fat. You don't have to exercise. You can move to a new town if you desire. You have freedoms that you take for granted because you've never been without them.
But perhaps more importantly, even those who are not serving in direct combat have to deploy. I work with the Air Force and all of those guys deploy for 6 months at a time to Iraq, Afghanistan, Africa... they are away from their families, they miss the births of their children, they watch their kids grow up on Skype.... you just can't put a price tag on any of that stuff. Regardless of the reason we're there, the fact that they are willing to do that is heroic in my book. It might not be "storm the beaches of Normandy" heroic, but it's still a larger sacrifice than 90% of the country will ever make.
There are bad apples in any group and the military is no exception. But there are over 3 million active duty and reserve military members in the United States. I think the sacrifices made by most of these people goes completely unnoticed by the average citizen.
I completely agree and couldn't have said it better.0 -
In my opinion, when you call everybody a "Hero", then nobody's a hero. Throwing that word around so easily cheapens the word.
I was proud to serve in the US Navy. I went to boot camp, I went to a lot of training. I was a machinist, worked in the machine shops on the ships doing maintenance and repair work. I was also a firefighter and fought a couple of real at-sea fires. I worked some insane hours. I spent 48 months in the service, and spent 27 months of that at-sea, separated from my family. When I was in port we worked a typical 45 hour a week schedule, and then I had to sleep over on the ship and stand watches every third night.
I did some TAD's with some other units, did some crazy stuff. Was crew on a landing craft for a while, crawled around with the beachmasters, had a lot of fun. I also visited 17 foreign countries, and chased a lot of girls, many of whom did not entirely speak english.
It was tough, it was a hard job. I'm glad I did it, and I'm glad it's over.
I am not a hero. I was a squid and I did my job.
SALVATORE A. GIUNTA is a hero. Do not cheapen what he did my calling me what you should be calling him.
GIUNTA, SALVATORE A.
Rank and Organization: Staff Sergeant, U.S. Army, Battle Company, 2nd Battalion, 503rd Infantry,173d Airborne Brigade. Place and date: Korengal Valley, Afghanistan, 25 October 2007. Entered service at: Cedar Rapids, Iowa. Born: 25 January 1985, Clinton, Iowa. Citation: Specialist Salvatore A. Giunta distinguished himself conspicuously by gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty in action with an armed enemy in the Korengal Valley, Afghanistan, on October 25, 2007. While conducting a patrol as team leader with Company B, 2d Battalion (Airborne), 503d Infantry Regiment, Specialist Giunta and his team were navigating through harsh terrain when they were ambushed by a well-armed and well-coordinated insurgent force. While under heavy enemy fire, Specialist Giunta immediately sprinted towards cover and engaged the enemy. Seeing that his squad leader had fallen and believing that he had been injured, Specialist Giunta exposed himself to withering enemy fire and raced towards his squad leader, helped him to cover, and administered medical aid. While administering first aid, enemy fire struck Specialist Giunta's body armor and his secondary weapon. Without regard to the ongoing fire, Specialist Giunta engaged the enemy before prepping and throwing grenades, using the explosions for cover in order to conceal his position. Attempting to reach additional wounded fellow soldiers who were separated from the squad, Specialist Giunta and his team encountered a barrage of enemy fire that forced them to the ground. The team continued forward and upon reaching the wounded soldiers, Specialist Giunta realized that another soldier was still separated from the element. Specialist Giunta then advanced forward on his own initiative. As he crested the top of a hill, he observed two insurgents carrying away an American soldier. He immediately engaged the enemy, killing one and wounding the other. Upon reaching the wounded soldier, he began to provide medical aid, as his squad caught up and provided security. Specialist Giunta's unwavering courage, selflessness, and decisive leadership while under extreme enemy fire were integral to his platoon's ability to defeat an enemy ambush and recover a fellow American soldier from the enemy. Specialist Salvatore A. Giunta's extraordinary heroism and selflessness above and beyond the call of duty are in keeping with the highest traditions of military service and reflect great credit upon himself, Company B, 2d Battalion (Airborne), 503d Infantry Regiment, and the United States Army.0 -
I'm going to repeat myself.
I have great respect for our Servicemen and Veterans, but there is no draft and, subsequently, they made the choice to join our Armed Forces. Many perform heroic deeds.
But, aside from those serviceman and veterans that performed heroically in remarkable situations, the real "everyday" heroes are the spouses and families of these servicemen that remain behind and hold everything together.0 -
Over the weekend, Chris Hayes from MSNBC said that he felt uncomfortable calling classifying all veterans and "heroes."“Why do I feel so uncomfortable about the word ‘hero’?” Hayes said. “I feel uncomfortable about the word hero because it seems to me that it is so rhetorically proximate to justifications for more war. Um, and, I don’t want to obviously desecrate or disrespect memory of anyone that’s fallen, and obviously there are individual circumstances in which there is genuine, tremendous heroism, you know, hail of gunfire, rescuing fellow soldiers and things like that. But it seems to me that we marshal this word in a way that is problematic. But maybe I’m wrong about that.”
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0512/76799.html
Of course, he has since made the token apology.
I disagree with him, I think volunteering for military service given the possible consequences his a heroic act in and of itself, but I do think he raises an interesting point. We do tend to equate military service with "fighting to protect our freedom," when "our freedom" is usually only on the line in a tangential sense, if that.
On a related note, I wish people would just say what they think without issuing the B.S apology.
Dated a Marine off and on for 10 years and live with a Navy Reservist, so I'm a bit biased. But I agree with you.
And while each and every war may or may not be about our freedom, a huge part of the reason we have our freedom is the strength of our military and other countries' fear of it. Without the men and women who volunteer, we wouldn't have that.0 -
In my opinion, when you call everybody a "Hero", then nobody's a hero. Throwing that word around so easily cheapens the word.
I was proud to serve in the US Navy. I went to boot camp, I went to a lot of training. I was a machinist, worked in the machine shops on the ships doing maintenance and repair work. I was also a firefighter and fought a couple of real at-sea fires. I worked some insane hours. I spent 48 months in the service, and spent 27 months of that at-sea, separated from my family. When I was in port we worked a typical 45 hour a week schedule, and then I had to sleep over on the ship and stand watches every third night.
I did some TAD's with some other units, did some crazy stuff. Was crew on a landing craft for a while, crawled around with the beachmasters, had a lot of fun. I also visited 17 foreign countries, and chased a lot of girls, many of whom did not entirely speak english.
It was tough, it was a hard job. I'm glad I did it, and I'm glad it's over.
I am not a hero. I was a squid and I did my job.
SALVATORE A. GIUNTA is a hero. Do not cheapen what he did my calling me what you should be calling him.
GIUNTA, SALVATORE A.
Rank and Organization: Staff Sergeant, U.S. Army, Battle Company, 2nd Battalion, 503rd Infantry,173d Airborne Brigade. Place and date: Korengal Valley, Afghanistan, 25 October 2007. Entered service at: Cedar Rapids, Iowa. Born: 25 January 1985, Clinton, Iowa. Citation: Specialist Salvatore A. Giunta distinguished himself conspicuously by gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty in action with an armed enemy in the Korengal Valley, Afghanistan, on October 25, 2007. While conducting a patrol as team leader with Company B, 2d Battalion (Airborne), 503d Infantry Regiment, Specialist Giunta and his team were navigating through harsh terrain when they were ambushed by a well-armed and well-coordinated insurgent force. While under heavy enemy fire, Specialist Giunta immediately sprinted towards cover and engaged the enemy. Seeing that his squad leader had fallen and believing that he had been injured, Specialist Giunta exposed himself to withering enemy fire and raced towards his squad leader, helped him to cover, and administered medical aid. While administering first aid, enemy fire struck Specialist Giunta's body armor and his secondary weapon. Without regard to the ongoing fire, Specialist Giunta engaged the enemy before prepping and throwing grenades, using the explosions for cover in order to conceal his position. Attempting to reach additional wounded fellow soldiers who were separated from the squad, Specialist Giunta and his team encountered a barrage of enemy fire that forced them to the ground. The team continued forward and upon reaching the wounded soldiers, Specialist Giunta realized that another soldier was still separated from the element. Specialist Giunta then advanced forward on his own initiative. As he crested the top of a hill, he observed two insurgents carrying away an American soldier. He immediately engaged the enemy, killing one and wounding the other. Upon reaching the wounded soldier, he began to provide medical aid, as his squad caught up and provided security. Specialist Giunta's unwavering courage, selflessness, and decisive leadership while under extreme enemy fire were integral to his platoon's ability to defeat an enemy ambush and recover a fellow American soldier from the enemy. Specialist Salvatore A. Giunta's extraordinary heroism and selflessness above and beyond the call of duty are in keeping with the highest traditions of military service and reflect great credit upon himself, Company B, 2d Battalion (Airborne), 503d Infantry Regiment, and the United States Army.
This is the common consensus among most Vets I know and it's probably the most valid point. My only argument with this whole story was that the original story with this Chris guy. He was not making the valid point that you just made about cheapening the word hero by using it frivolously, but he was worried about the political implications of seeming to support the wars by the use of the word hero. In my mind set, once the playing field has been changed that way and our praise of service men and women are contingent on the popularity or rightcheousnees of the war, then even guys like Gunta would no longer be called a hero.0 -
Being a hero requires a heroic act.Over the weekend, Chris Hayes from MSNBC said that he felt uncomfortable calling classifying all veterans and "heroes."“Why do I feel so uncomfortable about the word ‘hero’?” Hayes said. “I feel uncomfortable about the word hero because it seems to me that it is so rhetorically proximate to justifications for more war. Um, and, I don’t want to obviously desecrate or disrespect memory of anyone that’s fallen, and obviously there are individual circumstances in which there is genuine, tremendous heroism, you know, hail of gunfire, rescuing fellow soldiers and things like that. But it seems to me that we marshal this word in a way that is problematic. But maybe I’m wrong about that.”
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0512/76799.html
Of course, he has since made the token apology.
I disagree with him, I think volunteering for military service given the possible consequences his a heroic act in and of itself, but I do think he raises an interesting point. We do tend to equate military service with "fighting to protect our freedom," when "our freedom" is usually only on the line in a tangential sense, if that.
On a related note, I wish people would just say what they think without issuing the B.S apology.
What about the troops who go over & kill civilians?, are they heroes? - not everybody who puts on a uniform should automatically get given that title.
A lone stranger pulling a women from a burning car, risking death is a hero - as they don't get paid for it & nobody expects them to do it, neither do they kill people.
Killing people in another country (often to acquire resources) is hardly at the same level as the above.
Now, world war 2 vets - I agree, as it was to prevent the extermination of another race, but now? - no, I think it cheapens the respect the real veterans of the world wars deserve.
Note - To clarify, some of the actions of modern army medics (along with those in history) are indeed heroic - those have my respect (because it's earned).0 -
My question is: if we do believe that veterans are heroes, then why do they make up 23% of the homeless population?0
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Being a hero requires a heroic act.Over the weekend, Chris Hayes from MSNBC said that he felt uncomfortable calling classifying all veterans and "heroes."“Why do I feel so uncomfortable about the word ‘hero’?” Hayes said. “I feel uncomfortable about the word hero because it seems to me that it is so rhetorically proximate to justifications for more war. Um, and, I don’t want to obviously desecrate or disrespect memory of anyone that’s fallen, and obviously there are individual circumstances in which there is genuine, tremendous heroism, you know, hail of gunfire, rescuing fellow soldiers and things like that. But it seems to me that we marshal this word in a way that is problematic. But maybe I’m wrong about that.”
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0512/76799.html
Of course, he has since made the token apology.
I disagree with him, I think volunteering for military service given the possible consequences his a heroic act in and of itself, but I do think he raises an interesting point. We do tend to equate military service with "fighting to protect our freedom," when "our freedom" is usually only on the line in a tangential sense, if that.
On a related note, I wish people would just say what they think without issuing the B.S apology.
What about the troops who go over & kill civilians?, are they heroes? - not everybody who puts on a uniform should automatically get given that title.
A lone stranger pulling a women from a burning car, risking death is a hero - as they don't get paid for it & nobody expects them to do it, neither do they kill people.
Killing people in another country (often to acquire resources) is hardly at the same level as the above.
Now, world war 2 vets - I agree, as it was to prevent the extermination of another race, but now? - no, I think it cheapens the respect the real veterans of the world wars deserve.
Note - To clarify, some of the actions of modern army medics (along with those in history) are indeed heroic - those have my respect (because it's earned).
We went to war long before we new Hitler was putting Jews in concentration camps. WW II vets also used flame throwers and roasted krauts alive, indiscriminately bombed civilian and military targets from above, and many cases of executing unarmed prisoners happened throughout the war. At least now we try and minimize the civilian death toll. And how about nuking Japan? Should we have nuked Iraq or Afghanistan? Once again, I love how the popularity of the war dictates heroism. And why do army medics deserve more respect than an infantry man, scout, or tanker? Where is the logic in that? They are all out to achieve the same goals, win battles.0 -
That guy is a *kitten* and a HALF.
I'd like to dare him to come into my household and tell me that the personal sacrifices my husband (and I) make on a daily basis for the Army as members of the 1% of the US population that actually serves are not worthy of being called heroic. Soldiers don't have to be POW, KIA, or MIA to be called heroes. How about all of our wounded warriors, who make up a great bit of our veterans--especially from OIF and OEF--who've come home with limbs missing and haunted with PTSD? Most soldiers don't like war, but they defend our country because they feel the need to, regardless of the political implications. Deeming them less than heroic because you don't like war is a really sorry opinion.0 -
Being a hero requires a heroic act.Over the weekend, Chris Hayes from MSNBC said that he felt uncomfortable calling classifying all veterans and "heroes."“Why do I feel so uncomfortable about the word ‘hero’?” Hayes said. “I feel uncomfortable about the word hero because it seems to me that it is so rhetorically proximate to justifications for more war. Um, and, I don’t want to obviously desecrate or disrespect memory of anyone that’s fallen, and obviously there are individual circumstances in which there is genuine, tremendous heroism, you know, hail of gunfire, rescuing fellow soldiers and things like that. But it seems to me that we marshal this word in a way that is problematic. But maybe I’m wrong about that.”
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0512/76799.html
Of course, he has since made the token apology.
I disagree with him, I think volunteering for military service given the possible consequences his a heroic act in and of itself, but I do think he raises an interesting point. We do tend to equate military service with "fighting to protect our freedom," when "our freedom" is usually only on the line in a tangential sense, if that.
On a related note, I wish people would just say what they think without issuing the B.S apology.
What about the troops who go over & kill civilians?, are they heroes? - not everybody who puts on a uniform should automatically get given that title.
A lone stranger pulling a women from a burning car, risking death is a hero - as they don't get paid for it & nobody expects them to do it, neither do they kill people.
Killing people in another country (often to acquire resources) is hardly at the same level as the above.
Now, world war 2 vets - I agree, as it was to prevent the extermination of another race, but now? - no, I think it cheapens the respect the real veterans of the world wars deserve.
Note - To clarify, some of the actions of modern army medics (along with those in history) are indeed heroic - those have my respect (because it's earned).
So WWII vets are more heroic than vets of OIF and OEF?
Are you so deluded that you actually think ALL soldiers are bloodthirsty criminals who just want to kill people?
It's a sad reality that the US public opinion of service members is so highly influenced by the disgraceful actions of less than a handful of stupid soldiers that decide to use their position to cause undue harm in a war zone.
Before you judge ALL military service members by the actions of ONE or TWO men or women who are completely unfit to wear the uniform, ask if you would feel comfortable being judged by the actions of a disgruntled coworker who blows up the corporate office of your company...
Just serving and giving up 20 + years of your and your family's life to the military must not be a respectful pursuit.... Every soldier plays a part in helping carry out a mission, whether it's killing the enemy or helping to restore peace and order. It's really sad very few soldiers ever receive recognition for their efforts. Hence why there are currently only 2 living recipients of the MOH.0 -
My question is: if we do believe that veterans are heroes, then why do they make up 23% of the homeless population?
^^^THIS! Fortunately, the culture of the military is changing so that more soldiers who come back wounded MENTALLY don't get as stigmatized as before for seeking treatment. The visibility of the wound doesn't always dictate the severity... Too many soldiers who've needed help (my great grandfather was a WWII vet and became an alcoholic as a result of his experiences... he subsequently died of alcoholism) aren't getting it and more alarmingly, are afraid to seek treatment. No more homeless vets!!!!!0 -
I'm going to repeat myself.
I have great respect for our Servicemen and Veterans, but there is no draft and, subsequently, they made the choice to join our Armed Forces. Many perform heroic deeds.
But, aside from those serviceman and veterans that performed heroically in remarkable situations, the real "everyday" heroes are the spouses and families of these servicemen that remain behind and hold everything together.
You are a gem
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