7 Reasons why women should lift heavy

dotknott

I was just trying to find out if there was any actual evidence to support that notion.

And you found out that there was.

Now what?

I've only seen one article about increasing BMD in post menopausal women posted and while it was interesting it didn't really say anything about the need to lift progressively heavier.

The National Osteoporosis Foundation also does not say anything about the need to progressively lift heavier.
http://www.nof.org/articles/238

Nor does the Mayo Clinic
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/osteoporosis/DS00128/DSECTION=prevention

Or any of these articles:
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/ss05/osteoporosis.html
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/osteoporosis-000120.htm
http://health.usnews.com/health-conditions/bone-joint-health/osteoporosis/prevention
http://www.webmd.com/osteoporosis/guide/osteoporosis-prevention

All list weight bearing cardio exercises as being needed more often than weight lifting to preserve bone than weight lifting. 2 days a week with no mention of the amount of weight seems to be the general consensus for lifting recommendations. A couple specifically mention strength training such as ankle/wrist weights and resistance bands.

Now what? I'd say sticking with my current exercise routine seems best since I enjoy most of it and it exceeds the medical recommendations.

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/ss05/osteoporosis.html - Only says mentions strength training and weight bearing exercise. Does not specify that if should not be progressive, nor does it specify that it needs to be progressive. so lets talk about definitions.
Wikipedia has Strength Training as 80-90% of 1RM. Your argument is that it doesn't say that you have to lift progressively then you don't need to, but you're ignoring that strength training by definition will involve heavier weights over time because you are always lifting at 80-90% of 1RM.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strength_training#Realization_of_training_goals

http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/osteoporosis-000120.htm Just says lifting weights, again, it doesn't state that progression is necessary, but lets see what the CDC says:

"After the first week or so of strength training, you should start doing each exercise with weights that you can lift at least ten times with only moderate difficulty. (If a given exercise seems too difficult—if you cannot do at least eight repetitions—then the weight you are using is too heavy and you need to scale back.)….To take full advantage of the many benefits of strength training, it's important to progress, or consistently advance the intensity of your workout by challenging your muscles with heavier weights. This continuous challenge allows your muscles to grow strong and stay strong."

http://health.usnews.com/health-conditions/bone-joint-health/osteoporosis/prevention
http://www.webmd.com/osteoporosis/guide/osteoporosis-prevention


It's also worth stating that these are links to articles about Osteoporosis and not research studies on the effects of lifting on Osteoporosis, which would have provided numbers vs. a general outline of what osteoporosis is. I won't bother with the last two. I'm not sifting trough webmd and us news articles.

bcattoes

It's also worth stating that these are links to articles about Osteoporosis and not research studies on the effects of lifting on Osteoporosis, which would have provided numbers vs. a general outline of what osteoporosis is.

When there are conflicting studies, which there almost always are, it's easy to pick some that back up a particular side. But is there any reason to believe those making the medical recommendations are unaware of all or most of the studies?

bcattoes

No, if the question you refer to is the one I keep asking, it wasn't about the benefits of lifting heavy. It's whether one has to lift consistently heavier in order to prevent bone loss and specifically whether lifting greater than 25 lbs weights is necessary.

See the results section in particular. To be within that percentage of your 1 RM, and to see the benefits, you need more than 25 lbs.

Effect of weighted exercises on bone mineral density in post menopausal women. A systematic review.
Zehnacker CH, Bemis-Dougherty A.
Source
Physical Therapy Consults, Frederick, MD 21701, USA. doctorcz@comcast.net
Abstract
PURPOSE:
Osteoporosis is both preventable and treatable with exercise playing an important role in osteogenesis. The purpose of this systematic review was to determine which specific exercise programs utilizing weights were effective in maintaining or increasing bone mineral density (BMD) in postmenopausal women.
METHODS:
A computerized search of the MEDLINE, CINAHL, EMBASE, PEDro, and Science Citation databases was conducted for the period 1990 through February 2005. The search was performed using English language-only keyword searches using MESH terms osteoporosis, postmenopausal, exercise, weight training, and bone mineral density. A total of 20 articles was critically evaluated for the quality of an intervention study using the criteria developed by MacDermid. An expert on the topic was asked to review the list of articles for omissions.
RESULTS:
The review revealed evidence to support the effectiveness of weight training exercises to increase BMD in postmenopausal women. The increases in BMD were site-specific and required high loading with a training intensity of 70% to 90% of 1 RM for 8 to 12 repetitions of 2 to 3 sets performed over one year duration.
CONCLUSION:
Weighted exercises can help in maintaining BMD in postmenopausal women and increasing BMD of the spine and hip in women with osteopenia and osteoporosis. The exercise program must be incorporated into a lifestyle change and be lifelong due to the chronic nature of bone loss in older women.

Thank you. That is along the lines I was looking for. I'm not sure it makes the case that more than 25 lbs is necessary, though. There are some moves that I can not do one rep at 25 lbs (lateral raises, for example). And certainly many post-menopausal women could not do one rep of anything at 25 lbs. I would think the amount needed would be relative.

This does make me very glad that I don't have any bone loss as I approach menopause, though.

You're right, But like I said in my earlier post, you're only accounting for weight, and not 1RM. If 25 lbs on any given lift is within the given percentage of your 1 RM, then you should see BMD increases (or at least a slowing in the normal age related decrease). You aren't proving we're wrong, you're comparing apples to shrimp.

I'm not trying to prove anyone is wrong. I was just asking for evidence that a statement was true.

And I've asked the same from you.

I don't understand. What statement do you want me to provide evidence for??

erinsueburns

No, if the question you refer to is the one I keep asking, it wasn't about the benefits of lifting heavy. It's whether one has to lift consistently heavier in order to prevent bone loss and specifically whether lifting greater than 25 lbs weights is necessary.

See the results section in particular. To be within that percentage of your 1 RM, and to see the benefits, you need more than 25 lbs.

Effect of weighted exercises on bone mineral density in post menopausal women. A systematic review.
Zehnacker CH, Bemis-Dougherty A.
Source
Physical Therapy Consults, Frederick, MD 21701, USA. doctorcz@comcast.net
Abstract
PURPOSE:
Osteoporosis is both preventable and treatable with exercise playing an important role in osteogenesis. The purpose of this systematic review was to determine which specific exercise programs utilizing weights were effective in maintaining or increasing bone mineral density (BMD) in postmenopausal women.
METHODS:
A computerized search of the MEDLINE, CINAHL, EMBASE, PEDro, and Science Citation databases was conducted for the period 1990 through February 2005. The search was performed using English language-only keyword searches using MESH terms osteoporosis, postmenopausal, exercise, weight training, and bone mineral density. A total of 20 articles was critically evaluated for the quality of an intervention study using the criteria developed by MacDermid. An expert on the topic was asked to review the list of articles for omissions.
RESULTS:
The review revealed evidence to support the effectiveness of weight training exercises to increase BMD in postmenopausal women. The increases in BMD were site-specific and required high loading with a training intensity of 70% to 90% of 1 RM for 8 to 12 repetitions of 2 to 3 sets performed over one year duration.
CONCLUSION:
Weighted exercises can help in maintaining BMD in postmenopausal women and increasing BMD of the spine and hip in women with osteopenia and osteoporosis. The exercise program must be incorporated into a lifestyle change and be lifelong due to the chronic nature of bone loss in older women.

Thank you. That is along the lines I was looking for. I'm not sure it makes the case that more than 25 lbs is necessary, though. There are some moves that I can not do one rep at 25 lbs (lateral raises, for example). And certainly many post-menopausal women could not do one rep of anything at 25 lbs. I would think the amount needed would be relative.

This does make me very glad that I don't have any bone loss as I approach menopause, though.

You're right, But like I said in my earlier post, you're only accounting for weight, and not 1RM. If 25 lbs on any given lift is within the given percentage of your 1 RM, then you should see BMD increases (or at least a slowing in the normal age related decrease). You aren't proving we're wrong, you're comparing apples to shrimp.

I'm not trying to prove anyone is wrong. I was just asking for evidence that a statement was true.

They have already posted the "evidence" it pretty specifically states "high loading with a training intensity of 70% to 90% of 1 RM". So maybe it will help you if you think of it instead as math. My 1RM on bench press is around 105, so my reps should be done from 75lbs to 95 lbs for an appropriate amount of reps per set. I could do 50 lbs for a ton more reps, but honestly, my endurance is going to give out a hell of a lot sooner than my strength. And muscular endurance is not what provides the BMD benefits.

I think what you may be confusing is the difference between receiving benefit from something, and receiving maximal benefit from something.

dotknott

I don't understand. What statement do you want me to provide evidence for??

Your statement that lifting only 25 lbs is necessary.

When there are conflicting studies, which there almost always are, it's easy to pick some that back up a particular side.

Please, I'd like to see a study that says that lifting weight over time with out progression has an equal effect on BMD as lifting with a progression.

But is there any reason to believe those making the medical recommendations are unaware of all or most of the studies?

I'm not saying they are unaware of all or most of the studies, my point was that these recommendations don't prove that you need not progress and that just lifting up to X lbs is a great way to stave off osteoporosis.

Articles referenced in a later post only say strength training. I've seen strength training defined as a % of a 1RM, so with out a weight lifting limitation in the recommendation I don't see how it could say that you shouldn't progress.

_chiaroscuro

Well bcattoes we gave you evidence; you're being obtuse about it because you didn't really want it anyway. I am back to my original conclusion that you're just going to show up on lifting threads and antagonize because you've got some issue with that crowd.

And now...I have LOTS of evidence to support that notion.

dotknott

Well bcattoes we gave you evidence; you're being obtuse about it because you didn't really want it anyway. I am back to my original conclusion that you're just going to show up on lifting threads and antagonize because you've got some issue with that crowd.

And now...I have LOTS of evidence to support that notion.

:drinker:

Achrya

Is this a good thread to ask questions about lifting? I don't wanna hijack but I do promise I intend to lift more that 25 pounds and won't argue with people who know more about the subject than me. :laugh:

dotknott

It might get lost, sorry. If you start another thread, I promise to answer to the best of my abilities (assuming I see the thread.)

coralmoser

Another very good article about strength training and osteoporosis with a lot of great references.


http://www.thesportjournal.org/article/training-improve-bone-density-adults-review-and-recommendations

bcattoes

I don't understand. What statement do you want me to provide evidence for??

Your statement that lifting only 25 lbs is necessary.

I never made that statement.

When there are conflicting studies, which there almost always are, it's easy to pick some that back up a particular side.

Please, I'd like to see a study that says that lifting weight over time with out progression has an equal effect on BMD as lifting with a progression.

I don't know if that's ever been studied, but if you find one I'd be interested to see it (reason I asked the question).

But is there any reason to believe those making the medical recommendations are unaware of all or most of the studies?

I'm not saying they are unaware of all or most of the studies, my point was that these recommendations don't prove that you need not progress and that just lifting up to X lbs is a great way to stave off osteoporosis.

Articles referenced in a later post only say strength training. I've seen strength training defined as a % of a 1RM, so with out a weight lifting limitation in the recommendation I don't see how it could say that you shouldn't progress.

Some of the articles gave examples of strength training as resistance bands and ankle/wrist weights. Not many people lift heavy by the bodybuilding.com definition with wrist weights.

swillybay

I'm just starting out& can only lift 15 pd dumbbells. Except lateral raises I can only do 7 pd dumbbells(my 3&4pd dumbbells together). Is that not enough? Most of the exercises I have to really push to complete the 2nd set of reps.

I am not an expert in lifting by ANY means whatsoever, but I do know that no matter what amount of weight you plan to end up lifting, you need to build in increments or you can injure your joints. Age, weight, fitness all matter. Good luck to you! I am old enough that I do not go beyond 12 lbs. lifting (one in each hand), and I am seeing good effects and good progress in my strength and weight loss. I choose not to go heavier because that doesn't work for my own body. If you choose to go heavier, I'm sure, if you work up to it, it won't be a problem.

Matiara

I hesitate to wade in, but I have a question that's been on my mind for a while. In a lot of the lifting threads, I've seen women who say they are glad that they lift because now they can lift heavy everyday items by themselves. I have never lifted heavy and do mostly body weight and light/moderate weight stuff and I have no problem lifting heavy everyday items. I can carry the 42 pound bag of cat litter without assistance, I'm the one in my office who's called upon the lift heavy boxes, and I can move heavy furniture around no problem. If I'm at a family member's house and they want something heavy moved, they ask me to do it and call me "She-Ra". I'm not saying I can move hundreds of pounds, but I rarely require assistance to move or carry the heavier items in everyday life.

In fact it's funny because I'll pick up something heavy and if there's a guy around, they usually run to assist me. Most of them look at me like I've grown an extra head when I tell them I don't need help.

OTOH, I've never been able to do a "real" pushup. If I do shoulder presses with eight pound weights, I get to failure in about 10 reps, but I lifted a 50 pound box to put on an overhead shelf in my closet and it didn't bother me. It's the same movement, more or less, though I know my legs probably took the bulk of the work.

So my question is, how the heck do I have so much real world strength, but then my muscles fatigue with light weights during a workout? Shouldn't I be able to do more? I can carry the aforementioned 42 pounds of litter up the driveway and the two flights of stairs to my apartment, but I can't do one pushup on my toes? How can that be explained?

jonnythan

I hesitate to wade in, but I have a question that's been on my mind for a while. In a lot of the lifting threads, I've seen women who say they are glad that they lift because now they can lift heavy everyday items by themselves. I have never lifted heavy and do mostly body weight and light/moderate weight stuff and I have no problem lifting heavy everyday items. I can carry the 42 pound bag of cat litter without assistance, I'm the one in my office who's called upon the lift heavy boxes, and I can move heavy furniture around no problem. If I'm at a family member's house and they want something heavy moved, they ask me to do it and call me "She-Ra". I'm not saying I can move hundreds of pounds, but I rarely require assistance to move or carry the heavier items in everyday life.

In fact it's funny because I'll pick up something heavy and if there's a guy around, they usually run to assist me. Most of them look at me like I've grown an extra head when I tell them I don't need help.

OTOH, I've never been able to do a "real" pushup. If I do shoulder presses with eight pound weights, I get to failure in about 10 reps, but I lifted a 50 pound box to put on an overhead shelf in my closet and it didn't bother me. It's the same movement, more or less, though I know my legs probably took the bulk of the work.

So my question is, how the heck do I have so much real world strength, but then my muscles fatigue with light weights during a workout? Shouldn't I be able to do more? I can carry the aforementioned 42 pounds of litter up the driveway and the two flights of stairs to my apartment, but I can't do one pushup on my toes? How can that be explained?

You have good leg and back strength but poor upper body strength. That's typical for women.

3laine75

I was just trying to find out if there was any actual evidence to support that notion.

And you found out that there was.

Now what?

I've only seen one article about increasing BMD in post menopausal women posted and while it was interesting it didn't really say anything about the need to lift progressively heavier.

Now what? I'd say sticking with my current exercise routine seems best since I enjoy most of it and it exceeds the medical recommendations.

Just a quick question. If you're not progressing the weight anymore, aren't you now just doing cardio - therefore losing the benefits?

dotknott

Perhaps it's just that progressing beyond that doesn't provide any additional health benefits, though it might provide bragging rights or personal satisifaction.

We start with a reference to the original article, and questioning of the motives of those who lift. Progressing beyond that [25 lbs] doesn't provide any additional health benefits.


[/quote]
But my point was - is there evidence that one must lift more than 25 lbs to receive these benefits?
[/quote]

To which many have replied, as well as cited studies which show that strength training improves BMD when performed long term at a high percent of 1RM. Though not right away, because some were still focused on the OP's link, and others were still amazed by this claim.

So, I'm going to assume that the progressively passive aggressive tone of replies means there isn't any evidence that going beyond 25 lbs or working to failure is necessary to preserve bone.

You may have never said that its not necessary to lift over 25lbs but you seem very convicted in this statement of lack of evidence.

You've never actually stated the light is off, but you only demand from others evidence that the light is on.

The discussion was not comparing no resistance training to always lifting to failure, I'm asking about the amount required for health benefits.

I gave you some numbers on this, and have cited several studies on strength training with progression and correlation to bone density. But that was after this post, so I can forgive this one.

I've never seen one article, study or other evidence that only lifting progressively heavy will prevent bone loss.

So here it's not that there's a weight limitation, it's just that you need not work with strength as a goal. I believe strength training is one of the items in your medical recommendation articles you linked to.

It's whether one has to lift consistently heavier in order to prevent bone loss and specifically whether lifting greater than 25 lbs weights is necessary.

I'm not sure it makes the case that more than 25 lbs is necessary, though.

Going back to my light is on scenario:

This article, while detailing the wiring diagrams and the switch as well as voltmeter measure and an electric bill showing long term usage of the light doesn't prove the light is on.

My questions are asking people to back up statements in this thread which I believe to be untrue, so this seems the appropriate place.

Don't tell me you never said that lifting 25lbs is necessary when you've argued that an article doesn't make the case that it is necessary, as well as demanded proof from any one that said you were wrong.

I and others have cited articles and I know at least one I cited abstracts shows that strength training (at 70-90% of 1RM) over the long term shows increases in BMD where cardio and stretching show no increase.

This is above and beyond what anyone should reasonably expect within a forum on a website such as MFP. If this was a different forum, or even a subset dedicated to the medical/research side of the fitness industry then this might not be out of the realm of reasonable expectation, but it's not.


Also, If you start with something so easily read as an insult to folks who actively strength train, you're probably not going to get answers to your question, and when you do they most certainly won't be from peer reviewed sources.

neandermagnon

So my question is, how the heck do I have so much real world strength, but then my muscles fatigue with light weights during a workout? Shouldn't I be able to do more? I can carry the aforementioned 42 pounds of litter up the driveway and the two flights of stairs to my apartment, but I can't do one pushup on my toes? How can that be explained?

sounds like you've never been afraid to lift things, so built up your muscles lifting and carrying things when necessary over the years.... just like the vast majority of women did before modern times. They got strong from (for example) doing heavy work on the farm, they didn't need to go to the gym. (and the same applies to men of course). Women are naturally capable of being strong, just that nowadays many women (and many men for that matter) grow up weak and stay weak because we live in a society where people would rather take the car to the local shops than walk, and many women will look at 42lb bags of litter and think "OMG I can't carry that, I'll ask a man to do it" without even trying.

Lack of upper body strength for things like push-ups is mostly because you don't do those things. Women tend to have less upper body strength than men, but you can develop it, either by practicing push-ups or by doing gym exercises that work the same muscles, e.g. bench press.

bcattoes

I was just trying to find out if there was any actual evidence to support that notion.

And you found out that there was.

Now what?

I've only seen one article about increasing BMD in post menopausal women posted and while it was interesting it didn't really say anything about the need to lift progressively heavier.

Now what? I'd say sticking with my current exercise routine seems best since I enjoy most of it and it exceeds the medical recommendations.

Just a quick question. If you're not progressing the weight anymore, aren't you now just doing cardio - therefore losing the benefits?

No, I do more reps. I do them to failure. Though I've seen no evidence that lifting to failure is necessary to maintain BMD, at my age it does seem necessary to prevent muscle loss. I do body weight strength training more often than weights though. I just don't enjoy it. I wish I did.

I have nothing against weight lifting or anyone that lifts.. It provides wonderful benefits. When I lift I would use heavier weights for things like bench press if I had heavier weights. My questions were never whether "lifting heavy" is good, I was only questioning the assertion in an post that it is necessary to maintain bone density.

bcattoes

Don't tell me you never said that lifting 25lbs is necessary when you've argued that an article doesn't make the case that it is necessary, as well as demanded proof from any one that said you were wrong.

I and others have cited articles and I know at least one I cited abstracts shows that strength training (at 70-90% of 1RM) over the long term shows increases in BMD where cardio and stretching show no increase.

This is above and beyond what anyone should reasonably expect within a forum on a website such as MFP. If this was a different forum, or even a subset dedicated to the medical/research side of the fitness industry then this might not be out of the realm of reasonable expectation, but it's not.


Also, If you start with something so easily read as an insult to folks who actively strength train, you're probably not going to get answers to your question, and when you do they most certainly won't be from peer reviewed sources.

"Troll" is always meant as an insult, and we all know it. All I did was offer a suggestion for the wording in the article (look up the meaning of "perhaps"). And I asked someone to back up a statement that I believe to be untrue. He never did, though another poster did post an article on a similar but not the same subject (maintaining bone mass was the subject of my question, rebuilding bone after bone loss was the subject of the article).

I have not seen anyone has post anything suggesting that bone density will be lost if one does not lift heavy but does other strength training. If I missed something, please reference that page in the thread and I'll go back and look for ti.

A question does not need to be backed up.

JoRocka

lift the heavy things.

25 lbs- pish posh. I did all the big three over (some well over my own BW) this weekend... and I look fantastic.

So yes- lift lift lift lift- and if you can lift more than 25- do so. things in the world are not capped by 25 lb weight limits and there are no gender discrimination between weights- the weight doesn't care what color it is or what your plumbing is... just lift the things folks.