Self Esteem & Lack of Shame vs. Self Delusion & Narcissism

Good question. I think it's similar to the Supreme Court justice said about porn. I can't define it but I know it when I see it.

I think shame is an important emotion. I don't think we should hang on to it, but I think it's there to guide us towards what's right. We know in our hearts what is right. Like, for instance... you should feel shame when you deliberately lie, cheat, steal or use Comic Sans.

When they start using capslock.

heh.

Moral relativism.

It can vary depending on individuals, communities, race, country, society, time, era etc.

It is not some fixed truth that we can identify. That is why topics such as those you listed can become so controversial and flame provoking.

You can have a conscience without feeling ashamed. "Ashamed" happens when you push past your conscience to do something you know you should not, especially when you're faced with unavoidable consequences. I associate shame with some outside authority sitting in judgement of my actions.

I follow my conscience most of the time. When I don't, I'm accountable to myself first. Shame doesn't enter into it.

The fun of being "narcissistic" is that I'm the only person whose judgement I truly fear.

Since we're dealing in absolutes...

Shame only serves a positive purpose when it propels us to make positive change. I believe it needs to be short-lived and it is not even necessary for success. On the other hand, there are so many risk factors associated with low self esteem that I would never think it appropriate to shame another person into change.

As for narcissism, I believe that there there is not a risk of creating this through building self esteem. Narcissistic personalities do well by recognizing who they are and keeping it in check. This can change in time anyway without effort.

This is all just IMO:)

This

and also that narcissism and attention seeking behaviour is underpinned by a lack of self esteem/self belief... the narcissistic behaviour compensates for this, i.e. people feel bad about themselves, but strive to make themselves feel better through others... but it only lasts a short time so they keep on doing it. People with high self esteem don't feel the need to seek notoriety or excessive attention/praise, because they don't need it.

Therefore I don't see low self esteem and narcissism as being opposite ends of the same spectrum. I see narcissism as a symptom of low self esteem and also of self hatred. People with narcissistic personality disorder generally hate themselves underneath all the narcissism, which is why they put so much effort into projecting this fake, idealised version of themselves on the world, and are threatened by anyone who's not co-operating with them (i.e. sucking up to them and giving them the praise and attention they want) because they are afraid of the illusion being shattered and people seeing them the way they see themselves (i.e. worthless and pathetic).

you don't make people narcissistic by praising them and trying to raise their self esteem. People with high self esteem get on well in life and deal with failure well, and go about achieving their goals without worrying so much about what other people think, and they also care about other people's feelings so don't go round hurting others to make themselves feel good (bullies have low self esteem/self worth, etc too, that underpins why they need to go around hurting others... additionally many narcissists are also bullies)

So build people up and be encouraging and supportive and if you need to correct someone be kind and respectful about it, but keep an emotional (and preferably physical if possible) distance from narcissists and bullies.

When it's harmful to others and when you're ignoring the needs of the people in your life (not strangers, but your actual family and close friends), a person should be ashamed.

I don't know that body weight even enters into this, but certainly addictions are an issue. I can offer some really personal examples, but I don't want to put it all out there on a message board, so I won't. I think those on my FL have seen a few of those examples, though, and know what I'm talking about.

EDITED TO ADD: When you lose sympathy and empathy for others, you should feel shame.

Moral relativism.

It can vary depending on individuals, communities, race, country, society, time, era etc.

It is not some fixed truth that we can identify. That is why topics such as those you listed can become so controversial and flame provoking.

Precisely. Not to mention that people use terms like "narcissistic" (an adjective) and "Narcissistic Personality Disorder" (a noun and psychiatric label) interchangeably.

Not every person needs to be shamed into positive change.

Good luck! I started a judgement vs. discernment thread 3 years ago on a yoga forum. Still going.

Shame only serves a positive purpose when it propels us to make positive change. I believe it needs to be short-lived and it is not even necessary for success. On the other hand, there are so many risk factors associated with low self esteem that I would never think it appropriate to shame another person into change.

As for narcissism, I believe that there there is not a risk of creating this through building self esteem. Narcissistic personalities do well by recognizing who they are and keeping it in check. This can change in time anyway without effort.

This is all just IMO:)

Edited to add: there is no line for me, I tend to swing towards self depreciation:)

I was trying to think of the best way to state my feelings on the value of shame, but Mandy said it perfectly before I could decide. For me, the degree of excess is mostly based on the degree it can negatively affect others around me, who are important in my life; and that can be applied to any of the above.

I think it crosses a line when your behavior genuinely hurts other people. When you isolate yourself, alienate yourself, from those around you with your own self-centered mindset. Obviously if you're hurting yourself, there's a line drawn there as well. That's how it works in my world, anyway... not completely black and white, but it's defined enough for me to know the difference I think.

ETA: Forgot about the shame bit... I think shame is something people automatically feel when they've done something wrong. Some people seem to feel this even when they haven't, due to emotional perversions of some kind. I had issues feeling ashamed of myself for crap that wasn't my fault for a long time, but genuine, real shame, that's reserved for when you've done something horrible I think.

Moral relativism.

It can vary depending on individuals, communities, race, country, society, time, era etc.

It is not some fixed truth that we can identify. That is why topics such as those you listed can become so controversial and flame provoking.

I agree, except I would call the phenomenon "context," not moral relativism.

I don't think anyone should really be ashamed of their bodies until they just don't try. That is my personal feeling for myself. During times that I had been doing nothing for myself, I did feel a sense of shame, but when I began taking better care of my self I felt a sense of pride, even if I didn't look good.

Shame only serves a positive purpose when it propels us to make positive change. I believe it needs to be short-lived and it is not even necessary for success. On the other hand, there are so many risk factors associated with low self esteem that I would never think it appropriate to shame another person into change.

As for narcissism, I believe that there there is not a risk of creating this through building self esteem. Narcissistic personalities do well by recognizing who they are and keeping it in check. This can change in time anyway without effort.

This is all just IMO:)

This

and also that narcissism and attention seeking behaviour is underpinned by a lack of self esteem/self belief... the narcissistic behaviour compensates for this, i.e. people feel bad about themselves, but strive to make themselves feel better through others... but it only lasts a short time so they keep on doing it. People with high self esteem don't feel the need to seek notoriety or excessive attention/praise, because they don't need it.

Therefore I don't see low self esteem and narcissism as being opposite ends of the same spectrum. I see narcissism as a symptom of low self esteem and also of self hatred. People with narcissistic personality disorder generally hate themselves underneath all the narcissism, which is why they put so much effort into projecting this fake, idealised version of themselves on the world, and are threatened by anyone who's not co-operating with them (i.e. sucking up to them and giving them the praise and attention they want) because they are afraid of the illusion being shattered and people seeing them the way they see themselves (i.e. worthless and pathetic).

you don't make people narcissistic by praising them and trying to raise their self esteem. People with high self esteem get on well in life and deal with failure well, and go about achieving their goals without worrying so much about what other people think, and they also care about other people's feelings so don't go round hurting others to make themselves feel good (bullies have low self esteem/self worth, etc too, that underpins why they need to go around hurting others... additionally many narcissists are also bullies)

So build people up and be encouraging and supportive and if you need to correct someone be kind and respectful about it, but keep an emotional (and preferably physical if possible) distance from narcissists and bullies.

This