Protein requirements as you become more experienced
SirBonerFart
Posts: 1,185 Member
How do protein requirements for muscle gain change as you become a more experienced lifter?
I would think with noob gains your protein requirements would be higher than when you are only gaining a couple lbs of muscle a year.
I would think with noob gains your protein requirements would be higher than when you are only gaining a couple lbs of muscle a year.
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Replies
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I guess I'm stuck on your statement "only gaining a couple lbs of muscle a year." Depending on your metabolic state, you can gain well over 10 lbs per year through most of your life.
That said, every cell in your body has to replace itself over time. As long as you're lifting properly, I don't think your protein requirements will drop much, if at all.0 -
only replying to say what an awesome name you have!0
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I guess I'm stuck on your statement "only gaining a couple lbs of muscle a year." Depending on your metabolic state, you can gain well over 10 lbs per year through most of your life.
I disagree with this. Assuming no drugs are at play, people who have been lifting for several years and are much closer to their genetic limits aren't going to add 10lbs per year.
A good read:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/whats-my-genetic-muscular-potential.html0 -
I guess I'm stuck on your statement "only gaining a couple lbs of muscle a year." Depending on your metabolic state, you can gain well over 10 lbs per year through most of your life.
That said, every cell in your body has to replace itself over time. As long as you're lifting properly, I don't think your protein requirements will drop much, if at all.
I'm talking about natural gains0 -
More muscle requires more protein. Some of the most successful bodybuilders eat up to 400g of protein a day. I think the general recommendation is 1 gram of protein for every lb of lean body mass.
Personally, I think that is a bunch of made up crap because there is no way that relationship is exactly 1:1. Someone made that up. I have been trying to find hard scientific numbers on what the exact requirements are. Consider the following article:
http://www.askmen.com/sports/bodybuilding_900/960_popular-metabolism-myths-part-1.htmlIn fact, according to internationally renowned obesity researcher Dr. Claude Bouchard, muscle has a relatively low resting metabolic rate. Dr. Bouchard told me in an interview that, on average, a pound of muscle will only burn an extra six calories per day, and that this is marginally better than what a pound of fat burns in a day, which is two calories.
So, assuming that the caloric expenditure increase is 100% due to protein, that means for every lean lb of muscle mass, you would need about 1.5 grams of protein, and that is an average number. Different muscle fiber types probably have different caloric needs for maintenance and growth. To be on the safe side, I would probably consume at least 2 grams of protein for every lb of lean body mass.0 -
More muscle requires more protein. Some of the most successful bodybuilders eat up to 400g of protein a day. I think the general recommendation is 1 gram of protein for every lb of lean body mass.
Personally, I think that is a bunch of made up crap because there is no way that relationship is exactly 1:1. Someone made that up. I have been trying to find hard scientific numbers on what the exact requirements are. Consider the following article:
http://www.askmen.com/sports/bodybuilding_900/960_popular-metabolism-myths-part-1.htmlIn fact, according to internationally renowned obesity researcher Dr. Claude Bouchard, muscle has a relatively low resting metabolic rate. Dr. Bouchard told me in an interview that, on average, a pound of muscle will only burn an extra six calories per day, and that this is marginally better than what a pound of fat burns in a day, which is two calories.
So, assuming that the caloric expenditure increase is 100% due to protein, that means for every lean lb of muscle mass, you would need about 1.5 grams of protein, and that is an average number. Different muscle fiber types probably have different caloric needs for maintenance and growth. To be on the safe side, I would probably consume at least 2 grams of protein for every lb of lean body mass.
I don't think you'll find hard data on exact requirements.
Suffice it to say that there are several variables at play that determine optimal protein needs but I'd be comfortable listing a general range of 1.5g/kg and about 2.2g/kg total bodyweight as a general range to cover most contexts. Single digit bodyfat trying to get leaner would be one context where going above that may be a good idea.
But regarding the original question, I'll attempt to reply after reviewing a few resources.
EDIT: I'm going to make the assumption here that the OP is referring to differences in proportional protein needs and not differences in net protein needs since the latter should be intuitive.0 -
Tagging to read and/or respond when not on my phone0
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More muscle requires more protein. Some of the most successful bodybuilders eat up to 400g of protein a day. I think the general recommendation is 1 gram of protein for every lb of lean body mass.
Personally, I think that is a bunch of made up crap because there is no way that relationship is exactly 1:1. Someone made that up. I have been trying to find hard scientific numbers on what the exact requirements are. Consider the following article:
http://www.askmen.com/sports/bodybuilding_900/960_popular-metabolism-myths-part-1.htmlIn fact, according to internationally renowned obesity researcher Dr. Claude Bouchard, muscle has a relatively low resting metabolic rate. Dr. Bouchard told me in an interview that, on average, a pound of muscle will only burn an extra six calories per day, and that this is marginally better than what a pound of fat burns in a day, which is two calories.
So, assuming that the caloric expenditure increase is 100% due to protein, that means for every lean lb of muscle mass, you would need about 1.5 grams of protein, and that is an average number. Different muscle fiber types probably have different caloric needs for maintenance and growth. To be on the safe side, I would probably consume at least 2 grams of protein for every lb of lean body mass.
Are you saying muscle uses protein for energy?0 -
More muscle requires more protein. Some of the most successful bodybuilders eat up to 400g of protein a day. I think the general recommendation is 1 gram of protein for every lb of lean body mass.
Personally, I think that is a bunch of made up crap because there is no way that relationship is exactly 1:1. Someone made that up. I have been trying to find hard scientific numbers on what the exact requirements are. Consider the following article:
http://www.askmen.com/sports/bodybuilding_900/960_popular-metabolism-myths-part-1.htmlIn fact, according to internationally renowned obesity researcher Dr. Claude Bouchard, muscle has a relatively low resting metabolic rate. Dr. Bouchard told me in an interview that, on average, a pound of muscle will only burn an extra six calories per day, and that this is marginally better than what a pound of fat burns in a day, which is two calories.
So, assuming that the caloric expenditure increase is 100% due to protein, that means for every lean lb of muscle mass, you would need about 1.5 grams of protein, and that is an average number. Different muscle fiber types probably have different caloric needs for maintenance and growth. To be on the safe side, I would probably consume at least 2 grams of protein for every lb of lean body mass.
I don't think you'll find hard data on exact requirements.
Suffice it to say that there are several variables at play that determine optimal protein needs but I'd be comfortable listing a general range of 1.5g/kg and about 2.2g/kg total bodyweight as a general range to cover most contexts. Single digit bodyfat trying to get leaner would be one context where going above that may be a good idea.
But regarding the original question, I'll attempt to reply after reviewing a few resources.
EDIT: I'm going to make the assumption here that the OP is referring to differences in proportional protein needs and not differences in net protein needs since the latter should be intuitive.
This is what Lyle has to say on the matter:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/protein-requirements-for-strength-and-power-athletes.htmlSo here’s my recommendation, strength/power athletes should aim for 1.5 g/lb protein per day (again, this is about 3.3 g/kg for the metrically inclined). So for a 200 lb strength/power athlete, that’s 300 grams of protein per day. For a 300 lber, that’s 450 grams per day. If you’re Jeff Lewis, I imagine your protein requirements are basically ‘All of it’ or perhaps ‘A cow’. Per day.0 -
More muscle requires more protein. Some of the most successful bodybuilders eat up to 400g of protein a day. I think the general recommendation is 1 gram of protein for every lb of lean body mass.
Personally, I think that is a bunch of made up crap because there is no way that relationship is exactly 1:1. Someone made that up. I have been trying to find hard scientific numbers on what the exact requirements are. Consider the following article:
http://www.askmen.com/sports/bodybuilding_900/960_popular-metabolism-myths-part-1.htmlIn fact, according to internationally renowned obesity researcher Dr. Claude Bouchard, muscle has a relatively low resting metabolic rate. Dr. Bouchard told me in an interview that, on average, a pound of muscle will only burn an extra six calories per day, and that this is marginally better than what a pound of fat burns in a day, which is two calories.
So, assuming that the caloric expenditure increase is 100% due to protein, that means for every lean lb of muscle mass, you would need about 1.5 grams of protein, and that is an average number. Different muscle fiber types probably have different caloric needs for maintenance and growth. To be on the safe side, I would probably consume at least 2 grams of protein for every lb of lean body mass.
I don't think you'll find hard data on exact requirements.
Suffice it to say that there are several variables at play that determine optimal protein needs but I'd be comfortable listing a general range of 1.5g/kg and about 2.2g/kg total bodyweight as a general range to cover most contexts. Single digit bodyfat trying to get leaner would be one context where going above that may be a good idea.
But regarding the original question, I'll attempt to reply after reviewing a few resources.
EDIT: I'm going to make the assumption here that the OP is referring to differences in proportional protein needs and not differences in net protein needs since the latter should be intuitive.
This is what Lyle has to say on the matter:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/protein-requirements-for-strength-and-power-athletes.htmlSo here’s my recommendation, strength/power athletes should aim for 1.5 g/lb protein per day (again, this is about 3.3 g/kg for the metrically inclined). So for a 200 lb strength/power athlete, that’s 300 grams of protein per day. For a 300 lber, that’s 450 grams per day. If you’re Jeff Lewis, I imagine your protein requirements are basically ‘All of it’ or perhaps ‘A cow’. Per day.
I'd be really curious as to whether or not Lyle's recommendations have changed on that or not. Would be interesting to know.
EDIT:So basically we have an intake continuum ranging from about 1.5 g/kg (0.68 g/lb) as a minimum for the obese non-training individual up to a high of around 3.3 g/kg (1.5 g/lb) of protein per pound of lean body mass for very lean heavily training athletes or bodybuilders with middle ground values being found in between those two extremes. You’ll note that I didn’t put any of those values in terms of percentages for reasons discussed in Diet Percentages: Part 1 and Diet Percentages: Part 2.
This seems much more reasonable IMO, given that the 1.5b/lb is in reference to very lean bodybuilders (I'm going to presume people in contest prep).0 -
How do protein requirements for muscle gain change as you become a more experienced lifter?
I would think with noob gains your protein requirements would be higher than when you are only gaining a couple lbs of muscle a year.
I actually think you will find the reverse tends to be true. When you initially start to lift, the stimulus is so unfamiliar to your body and the adaptive response so great you can make some great progress even with crappy protein intake and training. However, as you move that dial closer to your genetic potential, more things need to be on point like your training and protein to maintain that progress and continue to progress.0 -
Curiouser0
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Are you saying muscle uses protein for energy?
I am saying every cell in the body requires a certain percentage of its daily caloric needs from protein. I was very clear in stating, "So, assuming that the caloric expenditure increase is 100% due to protein..." clearly there are other biologic pathways in the cell that require carbohydrate and fat, but for purposes of calculating a theoretical maximum requirement, I made the aforementioned assumption.0 -
Just thinking out loud here.
Some of the recent stuff I have read shows an increase intake of protein helps maintain muscle. If muscle requires basically a maintenance dose of protein it would make sense that as you add more muscle that dose would go up. If you also want to add new muscle you would need that dose + additional protein to help build the new stuff.0 -
Just thinking out loud here.
Some of the recent stuff I have read shows an increase intake of protein helps maintain muscle. If muscle requires basically a maintenance dose of protein it would make sense that as you add more muscle that dose would go up. If you also want to add new muscle muscle you would need that dose + additional protein to help build the new stuff.
I'm talking retaliative to body mass, I think its obvious as your overall mass increases so do overall requirements0 -
Just thinking out loud here.
Some of the recent stuff I have read shows an increase intake of protein helps maintain muscle. If muscle requires basically a maintenance dose of protein it would make sense that as you add more muscle that dose would go up. If you also want to add new muscle muscle you would need that dose + additional protein to help build the new stuff.
I'm talking retaliative to body mass, I think its obvious as your overall mass increases so do overall requirements
Ah I see. So the the question is why does the requirement go up disproportionately to the amount of muscle added.0 -
Well I think we are shifting away from the OP. The main premise of the OP, that is, muscle gains are lower when you first start lifting, is false. SideSteel linked an article to support the debunking of that premise.
However, there is a point to be made regardless of the premise, that is, more experienced lifters, according to Lyle, may need less protein in relation to lean body mass. He mentions that in the link that I posted in a previous post.0 -
Well I think we are shifting away from the OP. The main premise of the OP, that is, muscle gains are lower when you first start lifting, is false. SideSteel linked an article to support the debunking of that premise.
However, there is a point to be made regardless of the premise, that is, more experienced lifters, according to Lyle, may need less protein in relation to lean body mass. He mentions that in the link that I posted in a previous post.
Here is the direct quote from Lyle's article:Other research (done with low intensity aerobic work) suggests that training improves protein retention; that is, as athletes become more trained, their protein requirements may actually go down. But does research with lower intensity aerobic work apply to the kind of training a strength/power athlete is doing? Probably not, so the high protein researchers will shoot that down. Around and around it goes.
So, he doesn't give a ringing endorsement for the claim, but he is citing research to suggest that what you are saying is possible; however, the entire article is geared toward making an argument for higher protein consumption in general.0 -
Just thinking out loud here.
Some of the recent stuff I have read shows an increase intake of protein helps maintain muscle. If muscle requires basically a maintenance dose of protein it would make sense that as you add more muscle that dose would go up. If you also want to add new muscle muscle you would need that dose + additional protein to help build the new stuff.
I'm talking retaliative to body mass, I think its obvious as your overall mass increases so do overall requirements
Ah I see. So the the question is why does the requirement go up disproportionately to the amount of muscle added.
Guess I worded it poorly
assuming that as a inexperienced lifter gains more muscle mass in 1 year than an experienced lifter.
Do the relative protein requirements change for that person from one year to the next?0 -
Just thinking out loud here.
Some of the recent stuff I have read shows an increase intake of protein helps maintain muscle. If muscle requires basically a maintenance dose of protein it would make sense that as you add more muscle that dose would go up. If you also want to add new muscle muscle you would need that dose + additional protein to help build the new stuff.
I'm talking retaliative to body mass, I think its obvious as your overall mass increases so do overall requirements
Ah I see. So the the question is why does the requirement go up disproportionately to the amount of muscle added.
Guess I worded it poorly
assuming that as a inexperienced lifter gains more muscle mass in 1 year than an experienced lifter.
Do the relative protein requirements change for that person from one year to the next?
No you worded it fine I just got off track by the other comments about muscle requiring protein for energy.
A new lifter can add a lot of muscle but requires less protein. An experienced lifter cant gain as much new muscle but requires a higher ratio of protein to LBM. Its an interesting question.
The body seems to be resistant to anything that goes beyond a normal range. The leaner you get the more the body wants to burn muscle and add fat. The higher the ratio of muscle the harder it gets to maintain.0
This discussion has been closed.