The problem with science
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Some good points here.... and a lot of snarkiness (to be expected). Not going to argue the points because everyone is entitled to their opinion and we are, of course, all at different stages on this journey. Would certainly be interesting to see photos of the bodies on threads like this though. Not that having a great physique is necessarily a guarantee of anything but it's certainly interesting to see the physiques behind the opinions. In the fitness world there seems to be a baffling inverse correlation behind having a great physique and training "scientifically". After all these years, I admit that I still can't figure out exactly why... although I have some ideas.
I'm not showing off anything but my N7 hoodie, stained with the tears of a chemistry PhD student.
And possibly acid, but mainly (hopefully) tears.7 -
stevencloser wrote: »I went from 28 BMI to abs. All thanks to science.
No pics for you.
I went the other way all thanks to science.
Pics of my fat a$% available on request.7 -
Some good points here.... and a lot of snarkiness (to be expected). Not going to argue the points because everyone is entitled to their opinion and we are, of course, all at different stages on this journey. Would certainly be interesting to see photos of the bodies on threads like this though. Not that having a great physique is necessarily a guarantee of anything but it's certainly interesting to see the physiques behind the opinions. In the fitness world there seems to be a baffling inverse correlation behind having a great physique and training "scientifically". After all these years, I admit that I still can't figure out exactly why... although I have some ideas.
I'm not showing off anything but my N7 hoodie, stained with the tears of a chemistry PhD student.
And possibly acid, but mainly (hopefully) tears.
And your scorn for the foolishness of the Council.
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Cover up the 'Bama logo and you're good.
Can't do it!
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3) Science is just the latest opinion on a subject, albeit a hopefully very educated one. The "science" of weight loss is totally different today compared to 10 years ago. 10 years from now it will be completely different again. Don’t get *too” attached to the studies we have today
I hear this kind of thing a lot, but people are usually confused when they say it. Usually people read something a writer put in a magazine, and think that's what "science" says. There are great cartoons about this problem.
When I was born, we knew that people and dinosaurs didn't live at the same time. It's 38 years later, and we don't think LA is overrun with stegosauruses.
Gravity made heavy things fall toward each other when Newton was investing in Apple stock, and it's still true.
We knew 100 years ago that rock beats scissors, and it scissors still beat paper.
Sometimes the scientific consensus changes entirely, but that's pretty rare, except when the old thinking was "we have no idea."3 -
CoffeeNCardio wrote: »Wetcoaster wrote: »
I can confirm scientifically that arguing with people online does not make me feel like a man of any size.
Thank goodness 2 -
I feel pretty good for having turned 58 in May. And yes....I eat too much "junk" and like having beer as a staple in my Diet
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Growing Older but not UP as Jimmy sings......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLC8fJdQJ24
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I love this post! Definitely agree with what you are saying here. I went to school for biology and now am pre-nursing for my second bachelor degree and am so guilty of only wanting to see published studies, but I have seen people defy CICO with my own eyes and know there is much to be interpreted and much lost in fitness/weight loss studies.
I realize none of us are experts but maybe you can check out my recent post and offer advice. I feel stuck lately.2 -
peacelovestone wrote: »I love this post! Definitely agree with what you are saying here. I went to school for biology and now am pre-nursing for my second bachelor degree and am so guilty of only wanting to see published studies, but I have seen people defy CICO with my own eyes and know there is much to be interpreted and much lost in fitness/weight loss studies.
I realize none of us are experts but maybe you can check out my recent post and offer advice. I feel stuck lately.
Since you don't believe CICO works, sounds like it would be a great time to test out some of your own theories about how weight loss actually happens. In the name of science.8 -
Anvil_Head wrote: »peacelovestone wrote: »I love this post! Definitely agree with what you are saying here. I went to school for biology and now am pre-nursing for my second bachelor degree and am so guilty of only wanting to see published studies, but I have seen people defy CICO with my own eyes and know there is much to be interpreted and much lost in fitness/weight loss studies.
I realize none of us are experts but maybe you can check out my recent post and offer advice. I feel stuck lately.
Since you don't believe CICO works, sounds like it would be a great time to test out some of your own theories about how weight loss actually happens. In the name of science.
I love science, yes, I'm intrigued.4 -
peacelovestone wrote: »I love this post! Definitely agree with what you are saying here. I went to school for biology and now am pre-nursing for my second bachelor degree and am so guilty of only wanting to see published studies, but I have seen people defy CICO with my own eyes and know there is much to be interpreted and much lost in fitness/weight loss studies.
I realize none of us are experts but maybe you can check out my recent post and offer advice. I feel stuck lately.
Funny thing about science, when you study it you quickly learn what seeing things "with your own eyes" actually amounts to.11 -
clicketykeys wrote: »Some good points here.... and a lot of snarkiness (to be expected). Not going to argue the points because everyone is entitled to their opinion and we are, of course, all at different stages on this journey. Would certainly be interesting to see photos of the bodies on threads like this though. Not that having a great physique is necessarily a guarantee of anything but it's certainly interesting to see the physiques behind the opinions. In the fitness world there seems to be a baffling inverse correlation behind having a great physique and training "scientifically". After all these years, I admit that I still can't figure out exactly why... although I have some ideas.
I'm not showing off anything but my N7 hoodie, stained with the tears of a chemistry PhD student.
And possibly acid, but mainly (hopefully) tears.
And your scorn for the foolishness of the Council.
Saving the galaxy, one anti-science thread rebuttal at a time.6 -
The problem with science is all those pesky advanced-degreed researchers who think their peer-reviewed, evidence-based findings have more value than my personal beliefs (which are obviously more valuable because I thought them up with my very own head).
Honestly, it's a conspiracy to denigrate my personal specialness.
This should have ended the thread with a resounding mic drop.5 -
No pics here either, but even with hormonal factors that modify my calories out (PCOS and borderline low thyroid) I was able to lose 99 lbs so far and still going. All I needed to do was to trust science and do some basic math. I don't think losing that much was a fluke.
Adaptations to lower calories do happen in many cases. No one is arguing with that. They do not nullify the principle, however. Some people even adapt in the opposite direction: they increase their NEAT without noticing when they increase their calories. None of that causes anyone to lose weight on 5000 calories or to gain weight on 800 like it's often claimed though. People just need to understand how to play with the number estimates they are given and use science and math to tweak them to fit their individual situation and how to accurately log their intake. They also need to understand how water weight works and what factors affect it (in some cases increasing calories lowers stress which causes them to retain less water).6 -
And BTW, some of us have private pictures for a variety of reason. I already get enough threats, I don't need someone reverse imaging my photo to give them more ammo. The people I want to see my photo's have them.
I reverse image google searched your skating lemon and found your home address. I hope you enjoy your Hornsby glute calendar for Christmas :bigsmile:12 -
peacelovestone wrote: »I love this post! Definitely agree with what you are saying here. I went to school for biology and now am pre-nursing for my second bachelor degree and am so guilty of only wanting to see published studies, but I have seen people defy CICO with my own eyes and know there is much to be interpreted and much lost in fitness/weight loss studies.
I realize none of us are experts but maybe you can check out my recent post and offer advice. I feel stuck lately.
Sounds like you have an open mind which is very cool. Some of us are forced to open our minds when our experience cannot be explained by what the studies say. This is how I reached my current beliefs on this subject. Do you have a link to your post? Would love to help if I can.0 -
Thanks for all the replies. There are some great points being made in here. Let me make some additional points too:
1) the studies are almost all short term. The CICO idea (which I generally agree with - a lot of people missed that I said that) seems to break down over longer periods of time
2) a bit of background about me: I am 38 years old, male, very active and have been weight training without a break for almost 22 years with the last 8 years as a full time fitness professional. I really got into training to build muscle in my late teens. I never wanted to be really big but just have a really athletic physique. Anyway, YEARS of frustration followed not because I had trouble building muscle (that was relatively easy for me) but because I had massive trouble getting lean (under 10% BF). I thought I had finally cracked it when I learned about CICO and began to track calories and macros. The early results were very promising (I got quite a but leaner) and I felt like I had found the holy grail.... but then something happened. At a certain point (about 12% BF) I couldn't get any leaner. I dropped calories further, I added a little cardio, then a few less calories, then more cardio eventually getting down to 1200 cals per day with 5 weight training sessions per week and 5 cardio sessions (which was crazy, looking back). At this point I was not losing a single pound and looked like absolute crap. It actually seemed like I was gaining fat which is apparently impossible according to science but I wasn't the only one who noticed this. Feeling totally deflated, I hired a female veteran natural bodybuilding coach who gradually brought my cals back up to 2800 at which point I was MUCH leaner and looked pretty awesome (if I say so myself). During this time my waist went from 33.5" to 31.5". How do you explain that? I am completely open-minded and LOVE to be proven wrong because that's how I learn and grow so there is no attachment to my current beliefs.
3) I currently have a training client who is male, 6'4", 286 lbs, 30%+ bodyfat, very strong, trains 4 times a week as a powerlifter and has a LOT of weight to lose. He gradually reduced his calories all the way down to 1800 and at this calorie intake this huge guy wasn't losing an ounce. I have reverse-dieted him back up to 2600 cals (we are going up to at least 3500) and, although the weight isn't exactly falling off him the scale is finally moving back down. This client is also a close friend and I have a lot of meals with him and I know exactly what he eats and how much. How do you explain these results with CICO? Again, opinions genuinely welcome.
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