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What the Health?

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Replies

  • stanmann571
    stanmann571 Posts: 5,728 Member
    Amy8Lyn wrote: »
    lauracups wrote: »
    Amy8Lyn wrote: »
    lauracups wrote: »
    Amy8Lyn wrote: »
    My vegan agenda and I enjoyed the film. I do think though as with any food or health documentary you need to do your own


    Nota bene: Steak/bacon/burger jokes? Are we still doing this? I think there are ways to share your opinions without demeaning or making fun of others beliefs.

    Or..you can have a sense of humor, life is too short to take oneself so serious

    I'd have a sense of humor if I didn't hear this multiple times a day, every day.

    For some reason it's the only thing Omi people like to say/joke about vegans. I understand that you will not know my frustration as it is not something you have had to deal with, but take my word for it.

    Yup ya right, my 48 years of life experiences, dealing with abuse, loss, death, addiction, recovery and learning the VALUE of laughing it off makes me unqualified to understand your frustration. Enjoy the day!

    I'm not sure what my frustration with having my ethical choices mocked daily have to do with "48 years of life experiences, dealing with abuse, loss, death, addiction, recovery etc" just because you feel I shouldn't care about mocking jokes doesn't negate my feelings. Just as it wouldn't make your past issues any less important to you. Trust me, I joke and laugh off A LOT of things but eventually you need to stand up for yourself. Should a thin person just "laugh it off" every time someone tells them to eat a burger? No, because after a while it's hurtful. This forum is certainly not the first place I've had to defend my personal habits, because my 36 years of life experiences; domestic violence, dealing with ED, depression, anxiety, loss and disease has taught me the VALUE of sticking up for myself.

    *********

    Now back to the actual topic, like I said in my OP I do agree that the documentary was overly dramatic, and I also said that some things should be taken with a grain of salt because everyone needs to research their own choices. So, let me clarify; what I did enjoy about the film is the discussion of the link between big Ag, major corporations and our healthcare systems. Many of these major non-profits (Like Susan G. Komen/American Heart Association) are sponsored by huge companies that may not really reflect the mission of the brand.

    Also, I would like to note that I am an ethical vegan, not a vegan for health reasons so perhaps my opinion is a little different than some who may try to bash studies and numbers into peoples heads. I don't feel that food should be demonized**, that's how people develop unhealthy relationships with food. What I do think is that people need to be empowered and make choices for themselves, and if a (flawed) documentary lights a fire and helps them decide to make positive changes or sparks them to start to do some research, I consider that a win.

    Framing it as an allegedly ethical choice sets you up to feel superior to those who make other choices.

    **animals are food. By framing your choice as ethical, you're demonizing food.

    Don't we all make decisions based on our personal beliefs of what is most ethical in a given situation? Yes, some people use that as a basis to feel superior, but others don't.

    Let's say someone chooses to abstain from sex in certain circumstances or feels an obligation to share a portion of their money with the less fortunate. Those are choices based on ethics, yet many people do these things without it damaging the way they see others.

    I would argue that is is possible to live in a way that is consistent with one's ethics without feeling superior.

    I would tend to agree, however the overall tone of the person I responded to(contrasted with your general tone.. since I recall you're also an ethical vegetarian) grated on me.
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
    Amy8Lyn wrote: »
    lauracups wrote: »
    Amy8Lyn wrote: »
    lauracups wrote: »
    Amy8Lyn wrote: »
    My vegan agenda and I enjoyed the film. I do think though as with any food or health documentary you need to do your own


    Nota bene: Steak/bacon/burger jokes? Are we still doing this? I think there are ways to share your opinions without demeaning or making fun of others beliefs.

    Or..you can have a sense of humor, life is too short to take oneself so serious

    I'd have a sense of humor if I didn't hear this multiple times a day, every day.

    For some reason it's the only thing Omi people like to say/joke about vegans. I understand that you will not know my frustration as it is not something you have had to deal with, but take my word for it.

    Yup ya right, my 48 years of life experiences, dealing with abuse, loss, death, addiction, recovery and learning the VALUE of laughing it off makes me unqualified to understand your frustration. Enjoy the day!

    I'm not sure what my frustration with having my ethical choices mocked daily have to do with "48 years of life experiences, dealing with abuse, loss, death, addiction, recovery etc" just because you feel I shouldn't care about mocking jokes doesn't negate my feelings. Just as it wouldn't make your past issues any less important to you. Trust me, I joke and laugh off A LOT of things but eventually you need to stand up for yourself. Should a thin person just "laugh it off" every time someone tells them to eat a burger? No, because after a while it's hurtful. This forum is certainly not the first place I've had to defend my personal habits, because my 36 years of life experiences; domestic violence, dealing with ED, depression, anxiety, loss and disease has taught me the VALUE of sticking up for myself.

    *********

    Now back to the actual topic, like I said in my OP I do agree that the documentary was overly dramatic, and I also said that some things should be taken with a grain of salt because everyone needs to research their own choices. So, let me clarify; what I did enjoy about the film is the discussion of the link between big Ag, major corporations and our healthcare systems. Many of these major non-profits (Like Susan G. Komen/American Heart Association) are sponsored by huge companies that may not really reflect the mission of the brand.

    Also, I would like to note that I am an ethical vegan, not a vegan for health reasons so perhaps my opinion is a little different than some who may try to bash studies and numbers into peoples heads. I don't feel that food should be demonized**, that's how people develop unhealthy relationships with food. What I do think is that people need to be empowered and make choices for themselves, and if a (flawed) documentary lights a fire and helps them decide to make positive changes or sparks them to start to do some research, I consider that a win.

    Framing it as an allegedly ethical choice sets you up to feel superior to those who make other choices.

    **animals are food. By framing your choice as ethical, you're demonizing food.

    Don't we all make decisions based on our personal beliefs of what is most ethical in a given situation? Yes, some people use that as a basis to feel superior, but others don't.

    Let's say someone chooses to abstain from sex in certain circumstances or feels an obligation to share a portion of their money with the less fortunate. Those are choices based on ethics, yet many people do these things without it damaging the way they see others.

    I would argue that is is possible to live in a way that is consistent with one's ethics without feeling superior.

    I would tend to agree, however the overall tone of the person I responded to(contrasted with your general tone.. since I recall you're also an ethical vegetarian) grated on me.

    Oh, I see. Thanks for clarifying.

  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
    Amy8Lyn wrote: »
    lauracups wrote: »
    Amy8Lyn wrote: »
    lauracups wrote: »
    Amy8Lyn wrote: »
    My vegan agenda and I enjoyed the film. I do think though as with any food or health documentary you need to do your own


    Nota bene: Steak/bacon/burger jokes? Are we still doing this? I think there are ways to share your opinions without demeaning or making fun of others beliefs.

    Or..you can have a sense of humor, life is too short to take oneself so serious

    I'd have a sense of humor if I didn't hear this multiple times a day, every day.

    For some reason it's the only thing Omi people like to say/joke about vegans. I understand that you will not know my frustration as it is not something you have had to deal with, but take my word for it.

    Yup ya right, my 48 years of life experiences, dealing with abuse, loss, death, addiction, recovery and learning the VALUE of laughing it off makes me unqualified to understand your frustration. Enjoy the day!

    I'm not sure what my frustration with having my ethical choices mocked daily have to do with "48 years of life experiences, dealing with abuse, loss, death, addiction, recovery etc" just because you feel I shouldn't care about mocking jokes doesn't negate my feelings. Just as it wouldn't make your past issues any less important to you. Trust me, I joke and laugh off A LOT of things but eventually you need to stand up for yourself. Should a thin person just "laugh it off" every time someone tells them to eat a burger? No, because after a while it's hurtful. This forum is certainly not the first place I've had to defend my personal habits, because my 36 years of life experiences; domestic violence, dealing with ED, depression, anxiety, loss and disease has taught me the VALUE of sticking up for myself.

    *********

    Now back to the actual topic, like I said in my OP I do agree that the documentary was overly dramatic, and I also said that some things should be taken with a grain of salt because everyone needs to research their own choices. So, let me clarify; what I did enjoy about the film is the discussion of the link between big Ag, major corporations and our healthcare systems. Many of these major non-profits (Like Susan G. Komen/American Heart Association) are sponsored by huge companies that may not really reflect the mission of the brand.

    Also, I would like to note that I am an ethical vegan, not a vegan for health reasons so perhaps my opinion is a little different than some who may try to bash studies and numbers into peoples heads. I don't feel that food should be demonized, that's how people develop unhealthy relationships with food. What I do think is that people need to be empowered and make choices for themselves, and if a (flawed) documentary lights a fire and helps them decide to make positive changes or sparks them to start to do some research, I consider that a win.

    I rather see people empowered to make choices by themselves by exposure to scientifically accurate information and not scare mongering garbage. I rather people make informed decisions than make decisions based on fear and cherry picked data.

    Making a decision based on fear created by inaccurate information is the opposite of being empowered.

    That's what I think too. Just used that word since the poster who I was responding to used it.

    Absolutely -- I was agreeing with you. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
  • jennpinklady
    jennpinklady Posts: 26 Member
    I'm vegan and watched the documentary and found it interesting. One thing for sure is no one should push onto others what to eat for our health belongs to us to each decide. So why watch a documentary about vegan if your not vegan? Just a thought....
  • redonkulousd
    redonkulousd Posts: 22 Member
    E"vegan"gelicals.......word to the wise. If you want people to listen just give the facts. Not weird science on it. I'm not and won't be vegan. But if that's your choice, you do you and I'll do me. Animals are tasty and good for you...I like them...a lot.
  • Holly_981
    Holly_981 Posts: 286 Member
    crazyravr wrote: »
    hollysin81 wrote: »
    I haven't seen it but have heard enough to know I'm not going to bother.. Paleo and Vegan.. Two opposite ends of the scale, yet each will tell you it's the best (or only) option. Each to their own in terms of what people choose to put into their bodies for whatever reasons. I eat meat, but I source it locally and make the effort to know where it's raised and what it's been fed. So from a health point of view, I don't disagree with eating meat or animal products. I do however, disagree with mass produced, inhumanely farmed meat and animal products.

    Interesting topic. I like it :)

    Yes, but please do note that both of these ways preach to you the importance of nutrient dense foods. Paleo will never tell you not to eat veggies. Hell, I eat more veggies now than I ever did. Like wise for the vegans, eat crap load of veggies but instead of meat get your proteins elsewhere. That simple. Neither does advertise that you should be eating any kind of processed foods. So although they both might be very different ways of eating and ways of life, they are very similar.

    I never said anything about processed foods. I'm not sure why you quoted me.. :/
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    crazyravr wrote: »
    hollysin81 wrote: »
    crazyravr wrote: »
    hollysin81 wrote: »
    I haven't seen it but have heard enough to know I'm not going to bother.. Paleo and Vegan.. Two opposite ends of the scale, yet each will tell you it's the best (or only) option. Each to their own in terms of what people choose to put into their bodies for whatever reasons. I eat meat, but I source it locally and make the effort to know where it's raised and what it's been fed. So from a health point of view, I don't disagree with eating meat or animal products. I do however, disagree with mass produced, inhumanely farmed meat and animal products.

    Interesting topic. I like it :)

    Yes, but please do note that both of these ways preach to you the importance of nutrient dense foods. Paleo will never tell you not to eat veggies. Hell, I eat more veggies now than I ever did. Like wise for the vegans, eat crap load of veggies but instead of meat get your proteins elsewhere. That simple. Neither does advertise that you should be eating any kind of processed foods. So although they both might be very different ways of eating and ways of life, they are very similar.

    I never said anything about processed foods. I'm not sure why you quoted me.. :/

    Just trying to point out that paleo and vegan although very different are pretty much the same in the end. Just like any religion if you break things down, its all the same thing, and they all have they firm followers, who in the end practice the same things. Just in a different way.

    They are not pretty much the same.

    I did paleo for a bit and know a number of people who do it and follow paleo stuff to some extent, and they don't think meat is bad for you and actually tend to eat more meat than the US average, from what I observed.

    A vegan diet, even WFPB, is really hard to maintain without legumes, which paleo puts on the verboten list, and grains are also helpful.

    Both are anti dairy, granted.

    SOME vegans and most paleo followers (although weirdly, not all, fewer than one should expect, really), tend to eat lots of whole foods and of course ensure that lots of those whole foods are vegetables. You know who else does this? A lot of people who aren't vegan or paleo, like me. So that's not a special thing about vegan or paleo diets, especially since not everyone who does those diets does it.

    Another difference: SOME paleo types (not all, not the ones I know best) tend to be anti carb and pro sat fat, and therefore warn against fruit (or more than a little or "low sugar" fruits). To the extent that paleo overlaps with keto, some may even warn against root veg (sugary carrots) or too many vegetables.

    Both can be done in a way that accentuates eating lots of produce, making plants the center of the plate, doing lots of home cooking, so on -- in fact, I think both should, ideally -- but again that does not separate them from many other ways of eating, so it seems weird to claim that they are "very similar."
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,451 Member
    The majority of documentaries are very biased to whatever their agenda is. I hardly see any that show even evidence or benefits from whatever they are opposing.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png
  • Gianfranco_R
    Gianfranco_R Posts: 1,297 Member
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    crazyravr wrote: »
    hollysin81 wrote: »
    crazyravr wrote: »
    hollysin81 wrote: »
    I haven't seen it but have heard enough to know I'm not going to bother.. Paleo and Vegan.. Two opposite ends of the scale, yet each will tell you it's the best (or only) option. Each to their own in terms of what people choose to put into their bodies for whatever reasons. I eat meat, but I source it locally and make the effort to know where it's raised and what it's been fed. So from a health point of view, I don't disagree with eating meat or animal products. I do however, disagree with mass produced, inhumanely farmed meat and animal products.

    Interesting topic. I like it :)

    Yes, but please do note that both of these ways preach to you the importance of nutrient dense foods. Paleo will never tell you not to eat veggies. Hell, I eat more veggies now than I ever did. Like wise for the vegans, eat crap load of veggies but instead of meat get your proteins elsewhere. That simple. Neither does advertise that you should be eating any kind of processed foods. So although they both might be very different ways of eating and ways of life, they are very similar.

    I never said anything about processed foods. I'm not sure why you quoted me.. :/

    Just trying to point out that paleo and vegan although very different are pretty much the same in the end. Just like any religion if you break things down, its all the same thing, and they all have they firm followers, who in the end practice the same things. Just in a different way.

    They are not pretty much the same.

    I did paleo for a bit and know a number of people who do it and follow paleo stuff to some extent, and they don't think meat is bad for you and actually tend to eat more meat than the US average, from what I observed.

    A vegan diet, even WFPB, is really hard to maintain without legumes, which paleo puts on the verboten list, and grains are also helpful.

    Both are anti dairy, granted.

    SOME vegans and most paleo followers (although weirdly, not all, fewer than one should expect, really), tend to eat lots of whole foods and of course ensure that lots of those whole foods are vegetables. You know who else does this? A lot of people who aren't vegan or paleo, like me. So that's not a special thing about vegan or paleo diets, especially since not everyone who does those diets does it.

    Another difference: SOME paleo types (not all, not the ones I know best) tend to be anti carb and pro sat fat, and therefore warn against fruit (or more than a little or "low sugar" fruits). To the extent that paleo overlaps with keto, some may even warn against root veg (sugary carrots) or too many vegetables.

    Both can be done in a way that accentuates eating lots of produce, making plants the center of the plate, doing lots of home cooking, so on -- in fact, I think both should, ideally -- but again that does not separate them from many other ways of eating, so it seems weird to claim that they are "very similar."

    and perhaps even weirder that the most extreme vegan diet, fruitarianism, is definitely paleo :smile:
  • CSARdiver
    CSARdiver Posts: 6,257 Member
    I understand why documentaries utilize fear to promote their agenda, but I think it sends a far more powerful message to minimize the hyperbole and simply let the facts lead you to your own decision.

    Adding absurd comparatives does more harm to your attempt to persuade.