August 2017 Running Challenge
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MNLittleFinn wrote: »kristinegift wrote: »MNLittleFinn wrote: »@MobyCarp I ran 12x400 with 200m recovery at ~1:51(7:27 pace) per interval, with a hammer drop to 1:38 for the last interval. It actually felt pretty easy Slowest interval was the first at 1:55. Had a 1 mile warm up in z1 and a 1 mile cool down in z1. My 5k PR last november was a 7:31 pace, for reference.
I'm going with Ian Torrence's notion that doing speedwork, while good for all around fitness also pays dividends for Long distance in increast VO2 max and such.... I kind of felt like today's workout was too easy, I felt GREAT after I was done.
@MNLittleFinn That is why 12x400 is one of my favorite workouts. It's fun to go fast and not feel totally wiped out afterward!! I'm hoping my friend's Hanson plan has another one on the agenda before our race in October (I'm not DOING Hanson's... just doing all her Hanson's workouts with her).
I'll admit, I really thought that 12x400 was going to wipe me out. Very pleasantly surprised at how good it felt. The last rep at 1:38 made me wonder if I could have gone faster, since even on thr last one, dropping 12 seconds from my my rep time didn't feel like anything.
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The other picture from our run last night. A toast to our friend ( Lady in Blue in the center ) on her last outing with us before she moves to her new job.20
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MNLittleFinn wrote: »@MobyCarp I ran 12x400 with 200m recovery at ~1:51(7:27 pace) per interval, with a hammer drop to 1:38 for the last interval. It actually felt pretty easy Slowest interval was the first at 1:55. Had a 1 mile warm up in z1 and a 1 mile cool down in z1. My 5k PR last november was a 7:31 pace, for reference.
I'm going with Ian Torrence's notion that doing speedwork, while good for all around fitness also pays dividends for Long distance in increast VO2 max and such.... I kind of felt like today's workout was too easy, I felt GREAT after I was done.
In the terms I think of, you set out to run 12x400 at I pace (McMilan cruise interval), and ran the last one closer to R pace (McMilan speed intervals). With the intervals as short as 400, that ought to feel pretty easy. Do 8x800 at the same pace, and it will be a lot more challenging. Or if you tried to do 12x400 all at the pace you ran the last one, the workout should really kick your butt.
There is speed work, and there is speed work. Much of it should be controlled speed work, like the 12x400 you ran. You *can* run a 400 faster, but the point is to run them *consistently*. I'm not sure what the physiological benefits are, but mentally this prepares you to hold a sustainable pace in longer races instead of burning out in a sprint at the start.5 -
Thanks @MobyCarp I was actually thinking of maintaining that pace and increasing the interval lengths like you mentioned.
My tboughts were to try to increase the distance I can run thr 400 currently, since it feels food and is roughly analogous to my 5k pace.
Ultimately, in the real long run, I'd like to get to doing like 4x1200-1600 at 5k pace, but I have no illusions about that really happening.0 -
Non-running update: Day 2 of ankle sprain. I could run 10 paces today, but that was sufficient to show that I shouldn't be doing any real running. Walking doesn't hurt as much as yesterday, but the ankle still likes it gentle and short.
Went to club practice to check in with Coach and teammates on status and the question marks about my running the Flint Mile a week from tomorrow. It's cool on that front; if I think I'm healthy enough to run a mile race, I get in my car a week from today and drive to Michigan. If I don't, I stay home and drop a few texts letting folks know I'm bailing out.
In regards to the speed work discussion, I paid attention to the workouts on the board at practice. They are illustrative of different types of speed work to prepare for different goals.
For the Rochester Mile (2 days away):
1 x 800 at T (lactic threshold)
2 sets of (400, 200, 200) at R w/full recovery (n.b. "R" is like McMilan speed interval pace)
For the Flint Mile (8 days away):
1 x 800 at T
2 sets of (600, 400, 200) at R with 400 recovery
4 x 200 at R with 200 recovery
General preparation for 5K cross country:
1 x 800 at T
2 x 2000 at T
4 x 200 at R with 200 recovery
For a 10 mile race (Hap Crim 10 mile, 9 days out) or longer race further out:
1 x 800 at T
3 miles at MP
1 mile at T
2 miles at MP
1 mile at T
1 mile at E (as in "easy")
The point of this: Coach likes the 800 at T to really warm you up before a challenging speed workout. It helps you have a better workout when you get to the R pace that follows it for the mile race workouts, and prepares you to start the first 2000 solid for the 5K workout.
You run more at faster paces to prepare for a shorter race, but the difficulty of the workout decreases as you get closer to race day. 5K and longer has a lot of T pace to build endurance. The mile race workouts have a lot of R pace to improve form and endurance at speed for relatively short distances. The really long interval workouts for true distance races vary paces to a) improve endurance, b) simulate tired legs without actually running enough miles to get beat up, and c) mentally prepare the runner for the idea that you keep running when you're tired, and you can run fast again after you've slowed down.
There wasn't any workout with I pace (like McMilan cruise intervals) today; some weeks that pace is prominent. But that's usually when the club is gearing up for a major 5K or 10K event, and those are further out than what we're focusing on right now.2 -
MNLittleFinn wrote: »Thanks @MobyCarp I was actually thinking of maintaining that pace and increasing the interval lengths like you mentioned.
My tboughts were to try to increase the distance I can run thr 400 currently, since it feels food and is roughly analogous to my 5k pace.
Ultimately, in the real long run, I'd like to get to doing like 4x1200-1600 at 5k pace, but I have no illusions about that really happening.
It's quite possible. You build on past success, week by week. A sample progression might look like this.
Week 1: 4x800 at I
Week 2: 4x1000 at I
Week 3: The "I pyramid", 1x800, 1x1000, 1-2x1200, 1x1000, 1x800 all at I
Week 4: 2 x (1000, 1200, 1000) at I
Long workouts at I typically allow "same time" recovery, i.e. if you ran 800m in 3:40, you'd get 3:40 recovery before starting the next interval.
That's about as much I pace as I get on the marathon training schedule; after that the distances get longer and the pace slows to T, e.g. 2x2 miles at T with 2 minutes recovery, then a week alter 2x3 miles at T with 3 minutes recovery. If you want to focus on faster, there's no reason you couldn't progress to 3-4 x 1200, then 3-4 x 1600 at I pace, as long as you cut back after some of the hard stuff to give your body some recovery. But you might not see a whole lot of benefit from pushing the speed work that hard if your main goal is running trail ultras.
Really, by the time I've done the Week 4 workout above and a 3 x 2 miles at T in the same training cycle, I start to wonder why guys fade 3 miles into a 4 mile race or 2 miles into a 5K. This stuff really helps the stamina for those short races.2 -
01 Aug – 8 km
04 Aug – 34 km – marathon ready!
07 Aug – 9.3 km in the rain
08 Aug – 7.1 km including a few sprints
09 Aug – 6 km
11 Aug – 5.8 km
12 Aug – 10.1 km including my 75th parkrun
15 Aug – 14.5 km
18 Aug – 8.1 km
Goal: Run my first marathon on August 27So, while in general shorter intervals tend to be run faster than longer intervals, it's not a simple formula of X length implies Y pace. There is considerable overlap. My standard joke that I tell to 5K runners is that from a marathon runner's perspective, a 5K is just an interval workout: 4800m at I, plus 200m at R.
@MobyCarp It weirds me out when I see people's training plans for intervals, because my marathon pace IS my easy run pace.
Is that normal for a first marathon?1 -
Thanks @MobyCarp I might just copy that progression and see where I get with it, getting some leg speed time in won't hurt, and could very well help me with this plateau.
I have 9 weeks until my big race, and if I can work up along that progression roug hoy on schedule, I could be trying to run those long intervals before I'm done and still have several weeks to play with things and taper off for recovery. 6 miles total with the 12x400 wasn't real hard today, so maybe I can reap the benefits of longer Intervals at roughly my 5k pace0 -
01 Aug – 8 km
04 Aug – 34 km – marathon ready!
07 Aug – 9.3 km in the rain
08 Aug – 7.1 km including a few sprints
09 Aug – 6 km
11 Aug – 5.8 km
12 Aug – 10.1 km including my 75th parkrun
15 Aug – 14.5 km
18 Aug – 8.1 km
Goal: Run my first marathon on August 27So, while in general shorter intervals tend to be run faster than longer intervals, it's not a simple formula of X length implies Y pace. There is considerable overlap. My standard joke that I tell to 5K runners is that from a marathon runner's perspective, a 5K is just an interval workout: 4800m at I, plus 200m at R.
@MobyCarp It weirds me out when I see people's training plans for intervals, because my marathon pace IS my easy run pace.
Is that normal for a first marathon?
Yes. First marathon for most runners is about building the toughness to FINISH. Remember you ALWAYS PR your first Marathon.4 -
@MobyCarp It weirds me out when I see people's training plans for intervals, because my marathon pace IS my easy run pace.
Is that normal for a first marathon?
@Orphia Completely! My marathons so far have all been the same as my easy run paces (but the last 2 were not on purpose, just days that went from BQ-goal to just-finish-goal). Especially for a first marathon, you want to take it at a pace where you KNOW you can finish, which is going to be the same as your easy/long run pace5 -
8/1: 7 miles of Track Tuesday
8/2: 7.1 miles easy
8/3: 8 miles "tempo run"
8/3: 6.3 miles group run
8/4: Rest day
8/5: 6 miles
8/6: 16 miles
8/7: 6 miles group run + lift/strength
8/8: 7 miles Track Tuesday
8/9: 5 miles + lift/strength
8/10: 6.8 miles "tempo Thursday"
8/10: 6.1 mile
8/11: Rest day
8/12: 6.4 miles
8/13: 15.8 miles
8/14: 3.2 miles
8/15: 9.4 miles of Track Tuesday
8/16: 5 miles
8/17: 8 miles "tempo run"
8/17: 7.4 miles
8/18: Rest day, hallelujah
136.5 miles of 250 goal miles
I was going to try to make up some of the tempo miles at my group run tonight but HAHA NOPE. I added 2 miles to the front of the run to at least get approximately the same mileage for the day, but I had to cut the last of two group run loops short because my HR kept sky rocketing. It was a tiny bit elevated all day (my resting HR is usually 48-52 and it kept creeping from 55-60 all day), and the heat/humidity this evening didn't help at all; it was still about 80F and 70% humidity because we have storms rolling in tonight. So all in all, it was hot and miserable and I was totally soaked through with sweat and my HR would not stay within a reasonable zone.
So in case anyone was wondering: Yes, I am definitely looking forward to a rest day tomorrow. And then a short run Saturday and a long run with a fast finish Sunday. I think I'm going to add in a second rest day next week and use it as a cutback week. I jumped my mileage from 25-30 miles right up to 51-55 mpw, and I haven't had a cutback week since I started training again 4 weeks ago. My body is definitely giving me "Let me rest, damn it!" signals. I really ought to listen.
Upcoming Races:
Oct 8: Steamtown Marathon
Oct 22: Perfect 10 (10 Miler)
Nov 5: Princeton Half Marathon (pacer)
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8/1/17 - 3.01 miles treadmill before weight lifting.
8/2/17 - 6.13 miles
8/3/17 - 3.03 miles on the treadmill before weight lifting.
8/4/17 - Rest day
8/5/17 - 12.04 miles, rough BG before, during, and after run.
8/6/17 - Rest day; weight lifting
8/7/17 - Rest
8/8/17 - 3.01 miles treadmill before weight lifting
8/9/17 - 6.01 miles, "Race Pace" (not quite) - felt good and indicators for fat adaptation look promising
8/10/17 - Rest (not exercising due to blood tests on 8/11)
8/11/17 - Rest
8/12/17 - Rest (lots of walking at state fair)
8/13/17 - 9.00 miles
8/14/17 - Rest
8/15/17 - 4 miles treadmill before weight lifting. Having electrolyte issues
8/16/17 - 4.85 miles. Still having electrolyte issues
8/17/17 - 4.35 miles treadmill before weight lifting.
Upcoming Races:
9/9/17 - Wabash Trace HM
10/21/17 - Oregon Trail Run HM1 -
On the topic of intervals I found them incredibly beneficial in the shorter races, 5k & 10k, and more of a way to break up the monotony of crushing 55-70 miles a week during marathon training. The longer the race, half & full marathons, it's more about tempo miles in my opinion. I'm not sure 12x400 intevals would get the HR up past where it would need to be for any length of time to have a ton of benefits for marathon's. I looked at @MNLittleFinn hr data on strava and it looks like your hr really never left z3. If you hr threshold is 170ish you'll need to run faster/longer to get into the proper hr zone to have benefits.1
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@5512bf I noticed that too. That's why I was thinking like you said about going faster/longer. Today's run kind of confirmed that, it was as much a test run as anything, I'm going to go longer during next week's intervals to see if that gets my HR up there.
Edit to add, my average HR on the intervals was too low, but max got into the right range, so I'm starting to think upping distance but keeping pace might put me in the right zone.0 -
August Goal: 60 miles
8/1: 4 miles
8/2: 3.1 miles
8/3: 2.2 miles
8/5: kr30dc day 1
8/6: 5.4 miles; kr30dc day 2
8/7: 3.1 miles; kr30dc day 3
8/8: 2.7 miles; kr30dc day 4
8/9: 3.1 miles; kr30dc day 5
8/10: kr30dc day 6
8/11: kr30dc day 7
8/12: kr30dc day 8
8/13: 6.3 miles; kr30dc day 9
8/14: kr30dc day 10
8/15: 3 miles; kr30dc day 11
8/16: 2.5 miles; kr30dc day 12
8/17: 3.2 miles; kr30dc day 13
38.6/60 miles completed
I had a great run tonight. It was almost cool at least for Texas in August. It was 82°F when I started out and by the time I was done it was down to 77°F. There was just enough of a breeze to be pleasant, but not windy. I am still one of the slower runners on here, but I am definitely improving. I ran a loop that is near my house so I didn't have to drive anywhere. After I finished I stopped by the house and picked up the dogs and drove them to the park for a bit. I prefer to walk them at the park instead of the neighborhood because I don't have to worry about loose dogs at the park. Plus the park is well lit and there are usually people there so I feel better being there when it is starting to get dark. They loved it because it was relatively cool. I felt like I could have kept going and they could have too, but it was getting dark so we came on home after a mile.
Tomorrow will just be yoga and then Saturday will be a rest day. That worked out well because tomorrow is my 27th wedding Anniversary so I wouldn't have run any way.
Good luck to all those racing this weekend!
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10 km River Bank Trails. Still feeling the effort of my Emperor's Challenge Race.
Legs were heavy right from the start - so I put myself in LSD mode and just relaxed enjoying the view over the river and the cool air.
08/01 0.0 km – 150.0 km - 0.0 km – YTD 862.57 km
08/01 7.5 km – 142.5 km - 7.5 km – YTD 870.07 km
08/03 14.0 km – 128.5 km - 21.5 km – YTD 884.07 km
08/05 12.0 km – 116.5 km - 33.5 km – YTD 896.07 km
08/12 20.0 km – 96.5 km - 53.5 km – YTD 916.07 km Emperor's Challenge My A Event for the Season
08/16 6.0 km – 90.5 km - 59.5 km – YTD 922.07 km
08/17 10.0 km – 80.5 km - 69.5 km – YTD 932.07 km
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PastorVincent wrote: »01 Aug – 8 km
04 Aug – 34 km – marathon ready!
07 Aug – 9.3 km in the rain
08 Aug – 7.1 km including a few sprints
09 Aug – 6 km
11 Aug – 5.8 km
12 Aug – 10.1 km including my 75th parkrun
15 Aug – 14.5 km
18 Aug – 8.1 km
Goal: Run my first marathon on August 27So, while in general shorter intervals tend to be run faster than longer intervals, it's not a simple formula of X length implies Y pace. There is considerable overlap. My standard joke that I tell to 5K runners is that from a marathon runner's perspective, a 5K is just an interval workout: 4800m at I, plus 200m at R.
@MobyCarp It weirds me out when I see people's training plans for intervals, because my marathon pace IS my easy run pace.
Is that normal for a first marathon?
Yes. First marathon for most runners is about building the toughness to FINISH. Remember you ALWAYS PR your first Marathon.kristinegift wrote: »@Orphia Completely! My marathons so far have all been the same as my easy run paces (but the last 2 were not on purpose, just days that went from BQ-goal to just-finish-goal). Especially for a first marathon, you want to take it at a pace where you KNOW you can finish, which is going to be the same as your easy/long run pace
@PastorVincent @kristinegift Thanks so much!!! That's incredibly reassuring!
I need to get my head around the fact that I need to stick to my very easy run pace, so I can last the distance. I mustn't worry about my time, just about enjoying it and finishing. Listen, brain!!3 -
August goal: 4 x 4
8/1: 4.72 1hr
8/2 4.58 1:01
8/3 rest
8/4 5.26 1:03
8/5 4.10 0:53
8/6 rest
8/7 6.37 1:11
8/8 4.10 1:00
8/9 4.11 0:51
8/10 rest
8/11 4.09 0:48
8/12 4.00 0:50
8/13 rest
8/14 5.88 1:15
8/15 4.26 :56
8/16 snorkel 4hrs- didn't get any really good photos...this is a damselfish by a pencil urchin
8/17 4.10 (walking to save my legs for saturday....)
Total 55.77
Ticker is my goal for 2017 and progress to date:
upcoming races:
Volcano Rainforest Runs 10k 8/19
Hilo Bay 5 and 10k 9/10
BlockThe Sun Run 5k Oct 14 (https://walk.aimatmelanoma.org/Hilo2017) (physical and virtual options available)
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6 Aug 3.15 km (1.95m)
8 Aug PT session
9 Aug 3.71 km (2.30m)
10 Aug PT session
11 Aug rest day
12 Aug 3.69 km (2.29m)
13 Aug 5km (3.1m)
14Aug PT session
15Aug rest day
16 Aug I had every intention of going for a run but ended up making some art.
17 Aug PT session
Goal
15.55km/50km
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A nice trail walk with stretches to get me back into the swing of things
August 9: 5.0 miles
August 10: 4.0 miles
August 11: 6.0 miles
August 12: 0 miles
August 13: 3 miles
August 14: 0 miles
August 15: 1 mile
August 16: 1 mile
August 17: 4 miles
August 18:
August 19:
August 20:
August 21:
August 22:
...
Total miles logged in August: 24.0 miles
Total miles left to go in August: 66 miles3
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