Ketogenic diet
Replies
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No for me. I don't like restrictions.4
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I have seen a tremendous difference in weight loss and energy level depending on what I eat.
That would be consistent with CICO, yeah.
I don't see a difference in energy between keto and not, low carb and not. I do see a difference based on other things, like whether I'm sleeping okay or whether I eat a terrible diet. I don't usually, but if I eat really poorly for a couple of days it does affect my energy. (I suspect that a lot of people who say they feel a lot better on low carb are either IR -- so have trouble converting carbs to energy -- or just didn't eat so well when eating more carbs and are comparing a non healthy higher carb diet instead of one with lots of veg, etc.). Other people may try going lower fat than they like and end up low energy for that reason (I see to have enough energy on low fat but just don't feel as satisfied overall).
Anyway, I certainly agree that what you eat will affect how you feel and energy.5 -
@lemurcat12 I've always thought that maybe I was IR, although my labs are always good. Would it make sense that I have MUCH more energy on keto even at a lower caloric intake because of my high BF%? I'm 5' 11" 285lb. and about 180lb. LBM.
Previously when I lost weight, my energy was not as high when I was close to 225lbs.0 -
It's a little late in the thread for this post but the ISSN's position statement has a worthwhile overview of diet types. Here's some of what they say regarding ketogenic diets:
"If there is any advantage to KD over non-KD for fat loss, it is potentially in the realm of appetite regulation. Under non-calorically restricted conditions, KD has consistently resulted in body fat and/or body weight reduction [65, 66, 67, 68, 69]. This occurs via spontaneous energy intake reduction, which could be due to increased satiety through a suppression of ghrelin production [70].
Moreover, KD has demonstrated hunger-suppressive effects independent of protein content. In a 4-week crossover design, Johnstone et al. [66] found that a KD consumed ad libitum (without purposeful caloric restriction) resulted in an energy intake reduction of 294 kcal/day. The latter results were seen despite a relatively high protein intake (30% of energy) matched between KD (4% CHO) and non-KD (35% CHO) conditions. In further support of this idea, a meta-analysis by Gibson et al. [71] found that KD suppresses appetite more than VLED. However, it remains unclear whether the appetite suppression is due to ketosis or other factors such as an increased protein or fat intake, or restriction of carbohydrate."
Source4 -
@AlabasterVerve
@psuLemon
The studies you refer to seem to show that in random groups of participants, keto diets and non- keto diets have a similar average combined result. Seems there would be an equal number IR and IS in both groups for example.
Do you know of any studies that looked at individual responses on keto vs. high carb? An entire group on keto, then on high carb? Curious if as individuals some people lose more fat on keto and some on higher carb. all other factors being equal.0 -
Doubt it, but check out Christopher Gardner's diet studies. His A to Z study is where the original IS/low fat, IR/low carb hypothesis came from I believe. His follow up RCT to test that theory controlled for diet quality and showed no benefit.
Research is ongoing but I wouldn't put too much stock into the notion insulin sensitivity/resistance plays too much of a part in one diet being better for weightloss than another. Diet quality and adherence is where it's at, IMO.
ETA: If you do have any markers for metabolic syndrome I think it's extremely foolish given the current research not to restrict your carbs at least somewhat and to avoid refined carbohydrate (and possibly industrial seed oils too) as much as possible - hyperinsulimia is no joke.1 -
@CharlieBeansmomTracey As I have said before, each individual responds differently ti different types of food. My mtabolic response is different than yours. For you carbs don't seem to matter. For me they do. If I eat junk carbs at any calorie level, my energy is very low all the time. The type of calorie makes a differrence in the individual response. My wife feels horrible with low energy on keto but loses weight on a high carb, calorie restricted diet. A calorie is a calorie, but how it affects energy level is where the difference is.
then its possible you have an underlying issue that is caused from carbs, but still a calorie is a calorie.for me carbs matter because I cant do keto due to the high fat. I have a health issue and keto literally knocks my butt in the dirt. as for it affecting energy levels usually its because a person has an insulin issue or some other underlying issue so maybe that is what is happening to you. but you said a person eating 2000 calories of high glycemic foods is not the same as 2000 calories of low glycemic food wont lose weight you said it was bull.
since a calorie is a unit of energy its would be the same if you burned say 20,000 BTUs of propane vs natural gas. sure the heat may be a little different(one may feel warmer than the other to you) but its still burning at that amount of btus. you dont lose weight faster on keto either. its mostly water weight at first. how do you know you also maintained muscle? did you get a dexa scan or something similar before and during the weight loss phase?. you may feel better doing keto and thats fine, but saying CICO is bull is bull. if you lost energy lifting doing a certain diet it could be you werent getting enough calories or you werent eating enough of a certain macro. low carbs for a lot of people will make their lifting and other activities suffer,for some it may give them more energy but it still comes down to CICO .6 -
@AlabasterVerve
@psuLemon
The studies you refer to seem to show that in random groups of participants, keto diets and non- keto diets have a similar average combined result. Seems there would be an equal number IR and IS in both groups for example.
Do you know of any studies that looked at individual responses on keto vs. high carb? An entire group on keto, then on high carb? Curious if as individuals some people lose more fat on keto and some on higher carb. all other factors being equal.
Check this out:
http://caloriesproper.com/insulin-resistance-is-a-spectrum/
http://caloriesproper.com/chris-gardner-strikes-again/At baseline, patients were divided into insulin sensitive & resistant groups based on insulin levels (AUC) during an oral glucose tolerance test. Then those groups were assigned to either a low fat or low carb diet. There were four groups, three time points (baseline, 3 months, and 6 months).
To make a long story short, insulin sensitive patients randomized to the low fat diet lost about 20% more weight than those randomized to low carb.... Insulin resistant dieters lost more weight on low carb...
Not all the studies are like this, but there are a number that are. I would not be at all surprised if it's due to better compliance, and also would not be surprised if it's because of energy and resulting TDEE to some degree.2 -
@AlabasterVerve
@psuLemon
The studies you refer to seem to show that in random groups of participants, keto diets and non- keto diets have a similar average combined result. Seems there would be an equal number IR and IS in both groups for example.
Do you know of any studies that looked at individual responses on keto vs. high carb? An entire group on keto, then on high carb? Curious if as individuals some people lose more fat on keto and some on higher carb. all other factors being equal.
Unfortunately, there seems to be limited amounts of research regarding keto diets. I think it would definitely be worthwhile, but it's speculation at best currently.
here is the study I was referencing earlier.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1038/oby.2005.79/full
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AlabasterVerve wrote: »Doubt it, but check out Christopher Gardner's diet studies. His A to Z study is where the original IS/low fat, IR/low carb hypothesis came from I believe. His follow up RCT to test that theory controlled for diet quality and showed no benefit.
Research is ongoing but I wouldn't put too much stock into the notion insulin sensitivity/resistance plays too much of a part in one diet being better for weightloss than another. Diet quality and adherence is where it's at, IMO.
ETA: If you do have any markers for metabolic syndrome I think it's extremely foolish given the current research not to restrict your carbs at least somewhat and to avoid refined carbohydrate (and possibly industrial seed oils too) as much as possible - hyperinsulimia is no joke.
I couldn't agree with you any more. I know i focus on diet quality. My greater focus is just eating foods that are filling. For me, it's proteins and high GI fruits and starchy foods. I cut fats as my immediate approach to weight loss, but try to incorporate fish and avocado as much as I can.
I also agree that many with MS would be foolish to not cut carbs.2 -
high fat is where its at!!
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My take is that since it offers zero metabolic advantage to weight loss, why on Earth would I choose to intentionally deprive myself?
I think most people that fall into the trap of Keto and most other fad diets do so because they were lied to at some point early on and have not figured this out yet. Or else the people that have been on it awhile and are too proud to admit that they were lied to so they go with the whole "well, yeah, I know it's really CICO, but it makes me less hungry" song and dance. In either case, they are pretty much wasting their time. I fell for their lies myself back in the day, so I am certainly no better. All of that said, you can 100% attain a calorie deficit with Keto, and since for the most part it's not dangerous to do it, if that is what people want to do then it's all good. Any route to reducing their BMI is going to lead to dramatic improvements in health, especially over the long term.13 -
Oh man...
I eat keto, I love keto. But not because it's some kind of magic way to lose weight more quickly or something like that - but just because I feel terrible when I'm eating moderate/high carbs. That's why keto works for me and doesn't feel restricting. I get to eat pretty much anything I want and I feel great at the gym. It's awesome.
But it's not for everyone. Some people are just really addicted to sugar/some people simply like carbs/some feel great while eating a lot of them/etc. That's why everyone is free to choose their own diet (diet as in "way of eating", not "way of losing weight"). As long as they understand that what you eat doesn't matter when it comes to losing/maintaining/gaining weight - but it might matter to your health and or your well-being.
13 -
No, because:
1. I like carbs
2. It causes me depression and anxiety
3. I can't ever feel full on it if I want to lose weight. The portions are TINY so I overeat. It made me gain weight.
4. Makes me smell bad
5. Makes my intestines feel and act funny, an unexplainable "odd" feeling that doesn't go away until after a couple of weeks of re-introducing carbs
6. Saps me out of energy and makes exercising feel like a chore
7. I feel like a zombie on it (possibly related to depression), which isn't good because my job requires a lot of brain work
8. It's too restrictive for me for no good reason and impairs my social enjoyment. I don't have any of the conditions where ketosis is favorable, I don't like the lack of variety because my preferences limit what I can eat on a keto diet, and it's just... completely unnecessary.
Notice a trend in my reply? "I, me".
There is not much to it, really. Some people feel it's an easier diet to follow and feel better on it (or see it as a good choice for their specific condition), others don't do as well on it. That's all there is to to it.18 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »
since a calorie is a unit of energy its would be the same if you burned say 20,000 BTUs of propane vs natural gas. sure the heat may be a little different(one may feel warmer than the other to you) but its still burning at that amount of btus. you dont lose weight faster on keto either. its mostly water weight at first. how do you know you also maintained muscle? did you get a dexa scan or something similar before and during the weight loss phase?. you may feel better doing keto and thats fine, but saying CICO is bull is bull. if you lost energy lifting doing a certain diet it could be you werent getting enough calories or you werent eating enough of a certain macro. low carbs for a lot of people will make their lifting and other activities suffer,for some it may give them more energy but it still comes down to CICO .
This relects my belief on CICO:
"Newton’s first law of thermodynamics states that the energy of an isolated system is constant. In other words, in a laboratory, or “isolated system,” 1,000 calories of broccoli and 1,000 calories of soda are, in fact, the same. I’m not saying Newton was wrong about that. It’s true that when burned in a laboratory setting, 1,000 calories of broccoli and 1,000 calories of soda would indeed release the same amount of energy.
But sorry, Mr. Newton; your law of thermodynamics doesn’t apply in living, breathing, digesting systems. When you eat food, the “isolated system” part of the equation goes out the window. The food interacts with your biology, a complex adaptive system that instantly transforms every bite.” -Dr. Mark Hyman17 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »
since a calorie is a unit of energy its would be the same if you burned say 20,000 BTUs of propane vs natural gas. sure the heat may be a little different(one may feel warmer than the other to you) but its still burning at that amount of btus. you dont lose weight faster on keto either. its mostly water weight at first. how do you know you also maintained muscle? did you get a dexa scan or something similar before and during the weight loss phase?. you may feel better doing keto and thats fine, but saying CICO is bull is bull. if you lost energy lifting doing a certain diet it could be you werent getting enough calories or you werent eating enough of a certain macro. low carbs for a lot of people will make their lifting and other activities suffer,for some it may give them more energy but it still comes down to CICO .
This relects my belief on CICO:
"Newton’s first law of thermodynamics states that the energy of an isolated system is constant. In other words, in a laboratory, or “isolated system,” 1,000 calories of broccoli and 1,000 calories of soda are, in fact, the same. I’m not saying Newton was wrong about that. It’s true that when burned in a laboratory setting, 1,000 calories of broccoli and 1,000 calories of soda would indeed release the same amount of energy.
But sorry, Mr. Newton; your law of thermodynamics doesn’t apply in living, breathing, digesting systems. When you eat food, the “isolated system” part of the equation goes out the window. The food interacts with your biology, a complex adaptive system that instantly transforms every bite.” -Dr. Mark Hyman
How does Hyman conclude that the "complex adaptive system" of my body will get a different amount of energy from 1,000 calories of soda and 1,000 calories of broccoli? What exact transformation is he saying will take place?9 -
janejellyroll wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »
since a calorie is a unit of energy its would be the same if you burned say 20,000 BTUs of propane vs natural gas. sure the heat may be a little different(one may feel warmer than the other to you) but its still burning at that amount of btus. you dont lose weight faster on keto either. its mostly water weight at first. how do you know you also maintained muscle? did you get a dexa scan or something similar before and during the weight loss phase?. you may feel better doing keto and thats fine, but saying CICO is bull is bull. if you lost energy lifting doing a certain diet it could be you werent getting enough calories or you werent eating enough of a certain macro. low carbs for a lot of people will make their lifting and other activities suffer,for some it may give them more energy but it still comes down to CICO .
This relects my belief on CICO:
"Newton’s first law of thermodynamics states that the energy of an isolated system is constant. In other words, in a laboratory, or “isolated system,” 1,000 calories of broccoli and 1,000 calories of soda are, in fact, the same. I’m not saying Newton was wrong about that. It’s true that when burned in a laboratory setting, 1,000 calories of broccoli and 1,000 calories of soda would indeed release the same amount of energy.
But sorry, Mr. Newton; your law of thermodynamics doesn’t apply in living, breathing, digesting systems. When you eat food, the “isolated system” part of the equation goes out the window. The food interacts with your biology, a complex adaptive system that instantly transforms every bite.” -Dr. Mark Hyman
How does Hyman conclude that the "complex adaptive system" of my body will get a different amount of energy from 1,000 calories of soda and 1,000 calories of broccoli? What exact transformation is he saying will take place?
I will bet that you won't receive an adaquate response to this perfectly legitimate question. Experience (of threads like this one) has taught me that the Keto crowd when confronted with an obvious vague falsehood will simply create new vague falsehoods to blurs the lines or move the goal posts from the original. It's about like trying to have an intelligent conversation with a conspiracy theorist.16 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »
since a calorie is a unit of energy its would be the same if you burned say 20,000 BTUs of propane vs natural gas. sure the heat may be a little different(one may feel warmer than the other to you) but its still burning at that amount of btus. you dont lose weight faster on keto either. its mostly water weight at first. how do you know you also maintained muscle? did you get a dexa scan or something similar before and during the weight loss phase?. you may feel better doing keto and thats fine, but saying CICO is bull is bull. if you lost energy lifting doing a certain diet it could be you werent getting enough calories or you werent eating enough of a certain macro. low carbs for a lot of people will make their lifting and other activities suffer,for some it may give them more energy but it still comes down to CICO .
This relects my belief on CICO:
"Newton’s first law of thermodynamics states that the energy of an isolated system is constant. In other words, in a laboratory, or “isolated system,” 1,000 calories of broccoli and 1,000 calories of soda are, in fact, the same. I’m not saying Newton was wrong about that. It’s true that when burned in a laboratory setting, 1,000 calories of broccoli and 1,000 calories of soda would indeed release the same amount of energy.
But sorry, Mr. Newton; your law of thermodynamics doesn’t apply in living, breathing, digesting systems. When you eat food, the “isolated system” part of the equation goes out the window. The food interacts with your biology, a complex adaptive system that instantly transforms every bite.” -Dr. Mark Hyman
they are the same calories but not the same nutritionally...not sure why everyone always misses that...6 -
JustRobby1 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »
since a calorie is a unit of energy its would be the same if you burned say 20,000 BTUs of propane vs natural gas. sure the heat may be a little different(one may feel warmer than the other to you) but its still burning at that amount of btus. you dont lose weight faster on keto either. its mostly water weight at first. how do you know you also maintained muscle? did you get a dexa scan or something similar before and during the weight loss phase?. you may feel better doing keto and thats fine, but saying CICO is bull is bull. if you lost energy lifting doing a certain diet it could be you werent getting enough calories or you werent eating enough of a certain macro. low carbs for a lot of people will make their lifting and other activities suffer,for some it may give them more energy but it still comes down to CICO .
This relects my belief on CICO:
"Newton’s first law of thermodynamics states that the energy of an isolated system is constant. In other words, in a laboratory, or “isolated system,” 1,000 calories of broccoli and 1,000 calories of soda are, in fact, the same. I’m not saying Newton was wrong about that. It’s true that when burned in a laboratory setting, 1,000 calories of broccoli and 1,000 calories of soda would indeed release the same amount of energy.
But sorry, Mr. Newton; your law of thermodynamics doesn’t apply in living, breathing, digesting systems. When you eat food, the “isolated system” part of the equation goes out the window. The food interacts with your biology, a complex adaptive system that instantly transforms every bite.” -Dr. Mark Hyman
How does Hyman conclude that the "complex adaptive system" of my body will get a different amount of energy from 1,000 calories of soda and 1,000 calories of broccoli? What exact transformation is he saying will take place?
I will bet that you won't receive an adaquate response to this perfectly legitimate question. Experience (of threads like this one) has taught me that the Keto crowd when confronted with an obvious vague falsehood will simply create new vague falsehoods to blurs the lines or move the goal posts from the original. It's about like trying to have an intelligent conversation with a conspiracy theorist.
This has been my experience as well -- you get a vague claim about the "complexity" of the body, but there's never anything concrete to establish how that complexity actually plays out in real life.9
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