Of refeeds and diet breaks
Replies
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rickinnercirclebet wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »rickinnercirclebet wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Only got through about 1/2 so far but this ties in with the MATADOR Study, his article on Full Diet Breaks and his diets like UD2. I agree that he is saying that 1 day refeeds aren't enough and in the Diet Break article, he talks about the adaptions not normalizing till the 10 day to 2 week point.
Yes, my understanding is that the refeeds will bring leptin back up, but the adaptations are still happening over time, they just take longer.
remind me why we need leptin back up? thx
Leptin is the hunger/satiety hormone, when it drops, you feel hungrier (your body
s way of telling you you need to look for food). It also drives the other hormones that get out of whack when we diet, primarily thyroid and cortisol (thyroid goes down, cortisol goes up). Both leptin and thyroid are sensitive to carbohydrate intake, hence the need to increase carbs on refeeds/diet breaks. Lyle has a six part (!!) article all about leptin (which I haven't read). Here's the link to part one: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-hormones-of-bodyweight-regulation-leptin-part-1.html/
right yes, thanks
I haven't got hungry yet but I am eating 2000 cals of nutrient dense food every day. PT said 'it will take a fair while yet for your leptin level to drop'
I didn't understand that at the time, been a few weeks since then but still no noticeable increase in hunger. Often I am eating my final 300 cals of the day when not at all hungry but been told not to skip it.
I was BMI 50+12 weeks ago coming off fast food addiction. Probably why I still don't feel hungry yet.
Being at a BMI of 50+ previously, your body can afford the deficit without much noticeable change in leptin signaling. Basically, you have enough stored energy to keep your body perceiving that there is enough energy substrate to produce leptin.
As you get leaner, the metabolic adaptations are much more pronounced and it's when structured refeed frequency, if any is needed at that time, become much more necessary to allow for continued fat loss if that is your goal.
In context, if you're not feeling the negative effects of calorie reduction yet, you're in a much more optimal state of weight and fat loss, since the psychological drive for cravings haven't occurred, which is the premise of restoring leptin signaling, just to mitigate those perceived negative adaptations.
Thanks!
I've read a whole load of the guy in the videos' website now and it all makes so much sense
My trainer says it will be another 60lbs or so before I really start to get hungry at which point he'll give me re-feed instructions. I may even suggest to him the full 'diet break' that is spoken about.
This information fills me with confidence as understanding the process makes it much easier to comply with the requirements. Logging on the app daily really helps too, just completing the day is all it takes10 -
I am playing around with the last 2kgs and find my body craving food. I feel hungry all the time, I have increased my Cals by 200 and reset my macro breakdown, my Carbs are now up to 150g which seems to be well enough to keep me satisfied.
I always refeed at the weekend, mainly high carb. But I have always looked at it as a blow out rather than the science behind it. This has given me a better insight. Thanks8 -
Dropped 4kgs since last weigh in, down to 116.1 from 131.7kgs
That's 34.8lbs in exactly 12 weeks
Just an update15 -
rickinnercirclebet wrote: »Dropped 4kgs since last weigh in, down to 116.1 from 131.7kgs
That's 34.8lbs in exactly 12 weeks
Just an update
NIce work!3 -
rickinnercirclebet wrote: »rickinnercirclebet wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »rickinnercirclebet wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Only got through about 1/2 so far but this ties in with the MATADOR Study, his article on Full Diet Breaks and his diets like UD2. I agree that he is saying that 1 day refeeds aren't enough and in the Diet Break article, he talks about the adaptions not normalizing till the 10 day to 2 week point.
Yes, my understanding is that the refeeds will bring leptin back up, but the adaptations are still happening over time, they just take longer.
remind me why we need leptin back up? thx
Leptin is the hunger/satiety hormone, when it drops, you feel hungrier (your body
s way of telling you you need to look for food). It also drives the other hormones that get out of whack when we diet, primarily thyroid and cortisol (thyroid goes down, cortisol goes up). Both leptin and thyroid are sensitive to carbohydrate intake, hence the need to increase carbs on refeeds/diet breaks. Lyle has a six part (!!) article all about leptin (which I haven't read). Here's the link to part one: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-hormones-of-bodyweight-regulation-leptin-part-1.html/
right yes, thanks
I haven't got hungry yet but I am eating 2000 cals of nutrient dense food every day. PT said 'it will take a fair while yet for your leptin level to drop'
I didn't understand that at the time, been a few weeks since then but still no noticeable increase in hunger. Often I am eating my final 300 cals of the day when not at all hungry but been told not to skip it.
I was BMI 50+12 weeks ago coming off fast food addiction. Probably why I still don't feel hungry yet.
Being at a BMI of 50+ previously, your body can afford the deficit without much noticeable change in leptin signaling. Basically, you have enough stored energy to keep your body perceiving that there is enough energy substrate to produce leptin.
As you get leaner, the metabolic adaptations are much more pronounced and it's when structured refeed frequency, if any is needed at that time, become much more necessary to allow for continued fat loss if that is your goal.
In context, if you're not feeling the negative effects of calorie reduction yet, you're in a much more optimal state of weight and fat loss, since the psychological drive for cravings haven't occurred, which is the premise of restoring leptin signaling, just to mitigate those perceived negative adaptations.
Thanks!
I've read a whole load of the guy in the videos' website now and it all makes so much sense
My trainer says it will be another 60lbs or so before I really start to get hungry at which point he'll give me re-feed instructions. I may even suggest to him the full 'diet break' that is spoken about.
This information fills me with confidence as understanding the process makes it much easier to comply with the requirements. Logging on the app daily really helps too, just completing the day is all it takes
Knowledge is power
and good work on the weight loss!!
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Goingagain wrote: »I am playing around with the last 2kgs and find my body craving food. I feel hungry all the time, I have increased my Cals by 200 and reset my macro breakdown, my Carbs are now up to 150g which seems to be well enough to keep me satisfied.
I always refeed at the weekend, mainly high carb. But I have always looked at it as a blow out rather than the science behind it. This has given me a better insight. Thanks
One of the funny things with looking at it from the perspective of doing a good thing for your body is that that actually helps lower cortisol levels. We'll often see people here say things like 'oh I haven't done a diet break, but I was off track for a week, so really I have'. Not the same.5 -
rickinnercirclebet wrote: »rickinnercirclebet wrote: »rickinnercirclebet wrote: »O/T slightly but I just re-introduced baby new potatoes into my diet and they are yummy
been eating organic brown rice as my main carb source for weeks
damm that was good
Any specific reason for the brown rice? It's actually not that much different from white rice nutrition wise.
fills me up better than white rice and is slower to digest
The quantity of white rice I can have with a meal is just not worth it bulk wise
Not really true. Brown rice does have more fiber than white rice but it's not a lot in absolute terms (about 1.5 grams per serving). Not enough to make a significant difference. In addition, white rice actually has fewer calories than brown rice on a like for like basis, so you could technically eat more of it.
Similarly, GI differences vs. white rice are negligible. Both white and brown rice will have a similar impact on blood sugar.
Basically, while brown rice is slightly healthier than white rice, it's not healthier enough to make any kind of meaningful difference. Keeping eating it if you like it, but if you're forcing yourself to eat it for dietary purposes you're pretty much OK to stop.
no, not forcing, I prefer it, I soak it for two days, then when cooked it fluffs up nicely, got a nice chewy nutty taste and texture, definitely more filling and slower to digest
not going back to white any time soon
I prefer brown rice too. I like the taste of it better.5 -
Thanks for posting this! I haven't watched the video yet and I don't know if this was discussed, but on the two days where you "re-feed" and increase your calories and carbs, is there a consensus on what should be consumed? Like does the person in the video advocate nutrient dense carbs ("healthy" food) or whatever the person wants, like pizza and donuts? Just curious if the person in the video had a recommendation for food during re-feed days or if it was personal preference?2
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cefleischman wrote: »Thanks for posting this! I haven't watched the video yet and I don't know if this was discussed, but on the two days where you "re-feed" and increase your calories and carbs, is there a consensus on what should be consumed? Like does the person in the video advocate nutrient dense carbs ("healthy" food) or whatever the person wants, like pizza and donuts? Just curious if the person in the video had a recommendation for food during re-feed days or if it was personal preference?
For a refeed, it's a bit more specific than for a diet break (in which the main thing is eat at maintenance and make sure your carbs are at least 100-150g). The refeed should be carb heavy, but not high on fats (not low either, he doesn't specify exactly, but I'm guessing about 0.4g of fat per lb of body weight based on what he says, which is still within the recommended minimum intake). So alas, I can't default to pizza to get my carbs up for refeed because it will put me over on fat. Aside from that, it's personal preference. But watch the video.2 -
I just started shooting for 1800 on weekdays so I can have 2 days around 2500 on weekends. I'm totally going to pretend I'm doing "re-feeds" and not just that I like to drink too much and eat crap on weekends.16
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@cefleischman I should add that the refeed as discussed in the podcast is more geared towards lean individuals aiming to get leaner, and who train. I know you're in your healthy weight range, and I see from your other thread that you're tending to eat at maintenance on weekends due to socialising. I think just doing that is probably fine for you at this stage. It's still going to have some physiological benefits I would think.9
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I'll also add that I am not lean (probably around 25% body fat), but I'm doing it with the high carbs, lower (for me) fat anyway. The combined glycogen and hormonal weight weekend after next should be hilarious!10
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Thank you for all of the info!!3
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cefleischman wrote: »Thanks for posting this! I haven't watched the video yet and I don't know if this was discussed, but on the two days where you "re-feed" and increase your calories and carbs, is there a consensus on what should be consumed? Like does the person in the video advocate nutrient dense carbs ("healthy" food) or whatever the person wants, like pizza and donuts? Just curious if the person in the video had a recommendation for food during re-feed days or if it was personal preference?
For clarification, carb refeeds are more intended for leaner folks, but psychologically they’re a break for most people. If you follow any diets like PSMF/RFL or UD2, you should be pretty glycogen depleted by the time a refeed is necessary and traditionally you would focus mostly on dry starchy food (gummy bears / Swedish fish, dry cereal, nonfat fig newtons, nonfat pastry mixes, potatoes, rice, etc). Roughly 4-5g of carb per lb of body weight on the high end.
Traditional refeeds suuuuck. It seems awesome at first, but the amount of carbs with minimal amounts of fat (protein stays the same) gets daunting and will bloat you. Make no mistake about that. If you freak out over large scale fluctuations, just do maintenance calories with some treats on those refeed days to minimize the jump.
What Lyle was saying in this video is that the traditional refeed (usually 36-48 hours) doesn’t need to be crammed in bulk so much, and that the leaner individuals might need more frequent refeeds (probably around maintenance calories) more often, like every 3rd day or something. The more body fat you have, the less frequent your refeeds need to be.
All in all, it’s about adherence. If a day or two out of the week you know you can allow a more relaxed menu of eating, it makes 3-4 days of calorie reduction that much more tolerable. And it might actually be more beneficial than strict dieting for weeks on end and just being miserable. If you have fat loss goals, be controlled but don’t go crazy unless you are trying to prep for a contest. Looking good naked is also a positive goal to have, and no one needs to be an absolutely shredded anatomy chart for that.11 -
Thanks @anubis609
I'm possibly going slightly overkill with this, given that I'm not really lean. I was originally just going with doing weekends at maintenance, to try to offset hormonal adaptations etc and make the last pesky few pounds a bit easier (albeit longer, which I don't really care about). But if some extra carbs (I have around 300g planned in, so 3g per lb of lbm) are going to help get leptin back up (which then helps everything else), I figure why not? I will remind myself I said that on Monday morning as I step on the scale
. Nah, I know it's gonna be glycogen, I'm pretty secure in my maintenance cals from diet break. Next week might be a good time to start running again though! 7 -
No problem @Nony_Mouse (｡◕‿◕｡)
You're probably in a good place mentally if you're sticking with the majority of your planned goals. A bump up in carbs every so often does help in general, and if you're not suffering from any metabolic disorders, there's no reason simple CICO/low-ish fat diet strategies won't work either. The good thing is you don't have to be absolutely lean to have free meals/refeeds/diet breaks. They provide a lot more benefit than just getting an increase in leptin. Weight loss success isn't necessarily about how many pounds you've lost, but more about how long you've kept it off and being/feeling healthier, happier, confident, stronger, leaner, etc, overall. It falls under the 80/20 heuristic of health. 80% of your nutrition/activity is mindfully focused on healthy practice and allow yourself 20% to be free.
Dieting as a nitpicky strategy can become a fustercluck (anagram loophole lol) if you get way deep into the biochemistry, and for the average person just wanting to look good for some holiday cuffing, there is absolutely no need to wreck themselves trying to get to absolute optimized nutrient partitioning. It's more stressful to even attempt guessing your leptin level response (without constant metabolic panel lab draws) vs just taking a few days out of the week to be human.
As a funny observation, anyone that's ever presented Lyle with a recent history of freaking out over fluctuations, guessing hormone response, water retention, busting out two-a-days of HIIT/LISS + hypertrophy training, intermittent fasting, taking a bowlful of supplements, etc., his first response is to tell them to calm the hell down and go on a vacation or get drunk, get laid, and magically come back relaxed, happier, and lighter on the scale.
25 -
No problem @Nony_Mouse (｡◕‿◕｡)
You're probably in a good place mentally if you're sticking with the majority of your planned goals. A bump up in carbs every so often does help in general, and if you're not suffering from any metabolic disorders, there's no reason simple CICO/low-ish fat diet strategies won't work either. The good thing is you don't have to be absolutely lean to have free meals/refeeds/diet breaks. They provide a lot more benefit than just getting an increase in leptin. Weight loss success isn't necessarily about how many pounds you've lost, but more about how long you've kept it off and being/feeling healthier, happier, confident, stronger, leaner, etc, overall. It falls under the 80/20 heuristic of health. 80% of your nutrition/activity is mindfully focused on healthy practice and allow yourself 20% to be free.
Dieting as a nitpicky strategy can become a fustercluck (anagram loophole lol) if you get way deep into the biochemistry, and for the average person just wanting to look good for some holiday cuffing, there is absolutely no need to wreck themselves trying to get to absolute optimized nutrient partitioning. It's more stressful to even attempt guessing your leptin level response (without constant metabolic panel lab draws) vs just taking a few days out of the week to be human.
As a funny observation, anyone that's ever presented Lyle with a recent history of freaking out over fluctuations, guessing hormone response, water retention, busting out two-a-days of HIIT/LISS + hypertrophy training, intermittent fasting, taking a bowlful of supplements, etc., his first response is to tell them to calm the hell down and go on a vacation or get drunk, get laid, and magically come back relaxed, happier, and lighter on the scale.
Haha, don't worry @anubis609, I have a pretty good grasp of how all this works for the average person. I'm never going to be super lean etc, just don't feel the need, but aiming to get a little more off (essentially the rest of what I gained over winter (southern hemisphere) plus the extra kg I never got around to before, then recomp. So, leaner than now, but like 22-23%. And I'm very good at telling myself to calm the hell down if the scale does something whacky, I know I haven't overeaten (and if I have, own fault). The scale is merely a tool to enable me to observe long term trends. Day to day is always going to bounce ('cept those three days on diet break where I stayed exactly the same). I certainly wasn't always this chill about it all though. Knowledge is power
Thanks again for your well thought out responses 6 -
I'm looking forward to reaching goal weight so I can use all this knowledge to manipulate body comp. I'm lucky I burn fat and gain muscle easily so when I get switched on I can make great gains.
Just got about 100 more pounds of fat to burn first...6 -
(☞ﾟヮﾟ)☞ ☜(ﾟヮﾟ☜)
I tend to generalize a lot of my responses, but you're welcome @Nony_Mouse
I have the tendency to get up my own hole regarding being neurotic about the nuances of stuff like fluctuations, macros, micros, labs, etc., so it becomes a reminder if I express to everyone else that being on my level of insanity isn't recommended haha. Cheers!3 -
rickinnercirclebet wrote: »I'm looking forward to reaching goal weight so I can use all this knowledge to manipulate body comp. I'm lucky I burn fat and gain muscle easily so when I get switched on I can make great gains.
Just got about 100 more pounds of fat to burn first...
If you do have that much to lose, you actually are at a metabolic advantage over a natural lean athlete to manipulate body composition. Lift heavy things properly, eat enough protein, and be at a deficit *just low enough to lose weight*, but not so low that you hate life. I'll use the Physiqonomics heurisic: for fat loss, training supports your diet; for muscle gain, diet supports your training.8
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