Of refeeds and diet breaks
Replies
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CynthiasChoice wrote: »Oh, and another thing - after 5 days on a diet break, I'm sleeping again! I knew something was off with me because I've always been blessed in regards to sleep. My head hits the pillow and within 5 minutes I'm out. Not true though for the last several months. At bedtime, my mind just wouldn't turn off, and there's no particular issue in my life to explain that sort of restlessness. High cortisol would explain it though.
I've gotten some great sleep the last two nights. I hope it's a sign that my hormones are balancing, and not just carb crash.
Yep, that's hormones rebalancing
I was meaning to ask how you are finding the extra carbs. From memory, you keep them low to help with cravings? Any problems there?4 -
CynthiasChoice wrote: »Oh, and another thing - after 5 days on a diet break, I'm sleeping again! I knew something was off with me because I've always been blessed in regards to sleep. My head hits the pillow and within 5 minutes I'm out. Not true though for the last several months. At bedtime, my mind just wouldn't turn off, and there's no particular issue in my life to explain that sort of restlessness. High cortisol would explain it though.
I've gotten some great sleep the last two nights. I hope it's a sign that my hormones are balancing, and not just carb crash.
That's the extra's that are sometimes missed.
I noticed several comments reading through the 4 pages that seemed to suggest the main benefit to the leptin increase was controlling the hunger that would be starting when it dropped.
And while that is one thing, couple other posts mentioned the cortisol and the thyroid - great other reasons for wanting these improvements.
And those improvements are not only for those down near goal weight, even those with plenty of fat to lose have those changes if deficit is great enough - several studies seem to show the body just doesn't like to lose the fat level it's at, whether it's got plenty or little to spare, hormones are changing even if no feelings of uncontrollable hunger. Leptin is dropping.
In fact I'd suggest that someone on MFP doing a good job of food logging is probably not going to get hit by the hunger aspect of leptin drop so bad they blow it all, at least not those with reasonable deficit and proper viewing of food (no "good" or "bad" and super limited diet) as a means to an end goal.
It's good to see some of these studies getting into such gritty details for specific groups of people.
Too bad not as much interest in doing some studies for things that might benefit a bigger group, give some similar details for application. Though perhaps that's the point, in general, follow the major already known points until you need these finer details later.
Who wants to bet how long it takes, say Weight Watchers or similar, to include something like this in their program. Trying to recall what I heard them recently do as a change that was from research from like many years ago.
Great post Nony_Mouse.9 -
Thanks for the added insights @heybales 3
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Oh, and it would be nice if Weight Watchers incorporated something sensible into their programme! I started WW way back in the Dark Ages (okay, 1988) as a tubby teen, and the programme then was, for all intents and purposes, based on macros, with some extra calories to 'spend' on whatever you liked. It was low fat (cos '80s), but otherwise, well, a whole lot more sensible that the more recent Points programmes have been!7
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As I said in earlier posts on this thread, started at 130kgs / 288lbs 89 days ago, been eating 2000 a day consistently so maybe not a surprise, have lost 35lbs
but I'm still not really hungry... still high leptin levels, huh?1 -
rickinnercirclebet wrote: »As I said in earlier posts on this thread, started at 130kgs / 288lbs 89 days ago, been eating 2000 a day consistently so maybe not a surprise, have lost 35lbs
but I'm still not really hungry... still high leptin levels, huh?
Leptin falls by 50% in the first week at a deficit (then slows significantly, but keeps dropping). But, you would have started out with high leptin because of your weight. You're also eating a reasonable number of calories, so not as likely to feel hungry. I wouldn't necessarily assume your leptin is still high because you're not hungry though. Increasing hunger can be an overt sign, but more so for leaner/healthy weight individuals. I wouldn't rely on it as an indicator that it's time for a diet break in someone above healthy weight.5 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »rickinnercirclebet wrote: »As I said in earlier posts on this thread, started at 130kgs / 288lbs 89 days ago, been eating 2000 a day consistently so maybe not a surprise, have lost 35lbs
but I'm still not really hungry... still high leptin levels, huh?
Leptin falls by 50% in the first week at a deficit (then slows significantly, but keeps dropping). But, you would have started out with high leptin because of your weight. You're also eating a reasonable number of calories, so not as likely to feel hungry. I wouldn't necessarily assume your leptin is still high because you're not hungry though. Increasing hunger can be an overt sign, but more so for leaner/healthy weight individuals. I wouldn't rely on it as an indicator that it's time for a diet break in someone above healthy weight.
yeah, I mean still high DESPITE the fact it will have fallen during more than 12 weeks of non-stop deficit... indicating that it was extremely high at my heaviest
not planning to do a re-ffed or diet break for a fair while, may eat maintenance for a week over Christmas / New Year0 -
Knowing about diet breaks and choosing not to employ them until there are obvious signs it's needed is kinda like watching the rain clouds approaching but not getting the laundry off the line until it's hosing down. You know metabolic adaptation is happening, whether you can feel it/see it or not, building regular diet breaks into your weight loss plan just makes sense.
Also like waiting for the oil light in your car to come on and risking a seized engine instead of checking the level regularly and topping up when required.11 -
rickinnercirclebet wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »rickinnercirclebet wrote: »As I said in earlier posts on this thread, started at 130kgs / 288lbs 89 days ago, been eating 2000 a day consistently so maybe not a surprise, have lost 35lbs
but I'm still not really hungry... still high leptin levels, huh?
Leptin falls by 50% in the first week at a deficit (then slows significantly, but keeps dropping). But, you would have started out with high leptin because of your weight. You're also eating a reasonable number of calories, so not as likely to feel hungry. I wouldn't necessarily assume your leptin is still high because you're not hungry though. Increasing hunger can be an overt sign, but more so for leaner/healthy weight individuals. I wouldn't rely on it as an indicator that it's time for a diet break in someone above healthy weight.
yeah, I mean still high DESPITE the fact it will have fallen during more than 12 weeks of non-stop deficit... indicating that it was extremely high at my heaviest
not planning to do a re-ffed or diet break for a fair while, may eat maintenance for a week over Christmas / New Year
That timing is probably okay for you, I wouldn't push it any longer, but do it for two weeks (did you read the article?).5 -
Another massive THANK YOUR for this thread!
I'd tried to raise the hormone issues somewhere else on the boards after my PT taught me about the concept when I was having an epic compliance fail/hungry all the time/seeing results but just ARGH type situation, and was totally shouted down and told it was a load of nonsense and the only thing that mattered was CICO.
So hurrah for finding more leanies just trying to get a bit leaner who actually share useful information. Hurrah!
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Nony_Mouse wrote: »rickinnercirclebet wrote: »As I said in earlier posts on this thread, started at 130kgs / 288lbs 89 days ago, been eating 2000 a day consistently so maybe not a surprise, have lost 35lbs
but I'm still not really hungry... still high leptin levels, huh?
Leptin falls by 50% in the first week at a deficit (then slows significantly, but keeps dropping). But, you would have started out with high leptin because of your weight. You're also eating a reasonable number of calories, so not as likely to feel hungry. I wouldn't necessarily assume your leptin is still high because you're not hungry though. Increasing hunger can be an overt sign, but more so for leaner/healthy weight individuals. I wouldn't rely on it as an indicator that it's time for a diet break in someone above healthy weight.
This^^0 -
Interesting. This past cut I did a calorie cycle where I would bring the cals up a bit more on lifting days and especially on weekends. I don't know if I was doing it right because while most of the extra cals came from carbs, fats usually went up too. Not sure if he addresses this in the video as I only skimmed trough it briefly, but how do you know if you are doing refeeds correctly? Did it really matter? I only really felt drained at the end (of 16 weeks) at which point I just headed into maintenance. I didn't do any formal diet breaks during that time. I am not a competitor or anything, so I did not get that lean, but I would say lean enough that these high cal days were necessary!1
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Interesting. This past cut I did a calorie cycle where I would bring the cals up a bit more on lifting days and especially on weekends. I don't know if I was doing it right because while most of the extra cals came from carbs, fats usually went up too. Not sure if he addresses this in the video as I only skimmed trough it briefly, but how do you know if you are doing refeeds correctly? Did it really matter? I only really felt drained at the end (of 16 weeks) at which point I just headed into maintenance. I didn't do any formal diet breaks during that time. I am not a competitor or anything, so I did not get that lean, but I would say lean enough that these high cal days were necessary!
You were intuitively doing pretty close to the right thing. IIRC, Lyle recommends raising carbs but keep fats the same or lower during the short refeed windows. But, you didn't hurt yourself any. You are pretty lean, so it was a smart thing to do.
The one thing I'd consider on your next cut is a 2 week full diet break every 6 to 8 weeks. It's help make your cut more efficient and probably have you feeling so drained at the end. 16 weeks is a long grind without a break both mentally and physiologically!
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I haven't had time to watch it, but am just starting my second week of eating maintenance cals after a long time of dieting... I surprisingly haven't gained a thing, except for a few hundred grams after a high carb day yesterday (two lower carb days to compensate, and dropped fat to 40g to bump carbs up more)....
Training hard and feeling good so I might do it for a while!7 -
Interesting. This past cut I did a calorie cycle where I would bring the cals up a bit more on lifting days and especially on weekends. I don't know if I was doing it right because while most of the extra cals came from carbs, fats usually went up too. Not sure if he addresses this in the video as I only skimmed trough it briefly, but how do you know if you are doing refeeds correctly? Did it really matter? I only really felt drained at the end (of 16 weeks) at which point I just headed into maintenance. I didn't do any formal diet breaks during that time. I am not a competitor or anything, so I did not get that lean, but I would say lean enough that these high cal days were necessary!
You were intuitively doing pretty close to the right thing. IIRC, Lyle recommends raising carbs but keep fats the same or lower during the short refeed windows. But, you didn't hurt yourself any. You are pretty lean, so it was a smart thing to do.
The one thing I'd consider on your next cut is a 2 week full diet break every 6 to 8 weeks. It's help make your cut more efficient and probably have you feeling so drained at the end. 16 weeks is a long grind without a break both mentally and physiologically!
Yes definitely, while I made it through, looking back I probably would have benefit from a good diet break weeks before reaching that breaking point. I kept thinking "but what's the point, I'm so close to the end...." (however, I underestimated how far I really was from the end) now I know better and see the benefit. Each bulk/cut I learn a little bit more, do things a little differently, become a little more successful.5 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Knowing about diet breaks and choosing not to employ them until there are obvious signs it's needed is kinda like watching the rain clouds approaching but not getting the laundry off the line until it's hosing down. You know metabolic adaptation is happening, whether you can feel it/see it or not, building regular diet breaks into your weight loss plan just makes sense.
Also like waiting for the oil light in your car to come on and risking a seized engine instead of checking the level regularly and topping up when required.
Preventing the issues is a whole lot easier than trying to get out of them too.
Thinking about the research study where they followed the Biggest Loser folks for a year afterwards - and they had plenty to lose at the start - they still had the lower than expected TDEE and had to eat so little just to maintain the weight loss they had accomplished. Let alone getting down to a healthy weight they really wanted to be at on their own.
I'm sure a 2 week diet break would go over really well for drama on that program.
Oh, and thanks for reminder what I forgot to do on last fillup at station.6 -
Interesting. This past cut I did a calorie cycle where I would bring the cals up a bit more on lifting days and especially on weekends. I don't know if I was doing it right because while most of the extra cals came from carbs, fats usually went up too. Not sure if he addresses this in the video as I only skimmed trough it briefly, but how do you know if you are doing refeeds correctly? Did it really matter? I only really felt drained at the end (of 16 weeks) at which point I just headed into maintenance. I didn't do any formal diet breaks during that time. I am not a competitor or anything, so I did not get that lean, but I would say lean enough that these high cal days were necessary!
You were intuitively doing pretty close to the right thing. IIRC, Lyle recommends raising carbs but keep fats the same or lower during the short refeed windows. But, you didn't hurt yourself any. You are pretty lean, so it was a smart thing to do.
The one thing I'd consider on your next cut is a 2 week full diet break every 6 to 8 weeks. It's help make your cut more efficient and probably have you feeling so drained at the end. 16 weeks is a long grind without a break both mentally and physiologically!
Yes definitely, while I made it through, looking back I probably would have benefit from a good diet break weeks before reaching that breaking point. I kept thinking "but what's the point, I'm so close to the end...." (however, I underestimated how far I really was from the end) now I know better and see the benefit. Each bulk/cut I learn a little bit more, do things a little differently, become a little more successful.
I think we can sometimes be our own worst critics. You could stop cutting right now and stay right where you are and you would still look fabulous and be in fabulous shape. I'm sure there are many of us that would be happy to be as lean as you are!
But, yes, what you describe is what I called "the nose to the grindstone" mentality in an earlier post. It's counter productive but there are psychological factors to get over to be proactive and take the darn break!! I think with your experience of bulking in the past, you would have an easier time of it.5 -
Interesting. This past cut I did a calorie cycle where I would bring the cals up a bit more on lifting days and especially on weekends. I don't know if I was doing it right because while most of the extra cals came from carbs, fats usually went up too. Not sure if he addresses this in the video as I only skimmed trough it briefly, but how do you know if you are doing refeeds correctly? Did it really matter? I only really felt drained at the end (of 16 weeks) at which point I just headed into maintenance. I didn't do any formal diet breaks during that time. I am not a competitor or anything, so I did not get that lean, but I would say lean enough that these high cal days were necessary!
You were intuitively doing pretty close to the right thing. IIRC, Lyle recommends raising carbs but keep fats the same or lower during the short refeed windows. But, you didn't hurt yourself any. You are pretty lean, so it was a smart thing to do.
The one thing I'd consider on your next cut is a 2 week full diet break every 6 to 8 weeks. It's help make your cut more efficient and probably have you feeling so drained at the end. 16 weeks is a long grind without a break both mentally and physiologically!
Yes definitely, while I made it through, looking back I probably would have benefit from a good diet break weeks before reaching that breaking point. I kept thinking "but what's the point, I'm so close to the end...." (however, I underestimated how far I really was from the end) now I know better and see the benefit. Each bulk/cut I learn a little bit more, do things a little differently, become a little more successful.
I think we can sometimes be our own worst critics. You could stop cutting right now and stay right where you are and you would still look fabulous and be in fabulous shape. I'm sure there are many of us that would be happy to be as lean as you are!
But, yes, what you describe is what I called "the nose to the grindstone" mentality in an earlier post. It's counter productive but there are psychological factors to get over to be proactive and take the darn break!! I think with your experience of bulking in the past, you would have an easier time of it.
Aww thanks!
Yea well I am finished cutting, now easing into my bulk, so I won't be this lean for long haha. 2 -
@VintageFeline - Yes, ma'am! All too familiar with those two names. But thank you for the "look there" post. You don't know that I follow their youtube channels. I really like it when Eric Helms is interviewed by a couple of other channels and they have their little pow-wows. I like to talk....a lot.....but when those folks speak I shut up and listen.0
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@mmapags - I really like the idea of a diet break. Or a gym break. In fact, I think that concept should be entitled "But, we were on a break!". For some reason, that phrase sounds really familiar to me (not that I ever watched Friends on TV....no, sir! Never). Most people have never heard of that concept....or believe that it is valid. Kinda like telling a person who is 5'3" @ 200lbs but is eating 700 Calories a day that "Girl, you need to eat a heck of a lot more food"......you get the "you are telling a fat person to eat more....and, a whole lot more at that?" response. But it is absolutely the right thing to do.
And, I do not know, @sardelsa , if you saw the video from Lyle McDonald on this topic? Likely the one that @mmapags is referencing.2
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