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Is every single body in the world intended to be within the so-called healthy BMI range?
Replies
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1st one is an abstract and is from 2002...almost 20 years old????
I'm sure you are capable of finding the full article and reading it. I know I managed to do it. And I'm not sure why you have an issue with an article published 15 years ago. Unless time itself invalidates science.
and it doesn't address your assertion that bone size difference can account for 8+lbs in body weight variance of two people who are same gender, height and race.and the 2nd one doesn't prove anything about your original assertion either...we know that Asians have a different BMI scale than we do and has nothing to do with your original argument or the original post...My original assertion..BMI is a good measure for the average population and that there are few outliers in that population...and that it is not "bone size" that will account for people being categorized as overweight or obese it's fat.
1. that the cutoff of 25 is arbitrary and not supported by morbidity and morality data for all populations. The existence of separate recommendations for Asians is evidence.
2. The BMI scale itself is flawed because it assumes a relationship of height to volume (mass) of h*h while volume is a cubic relationship. Being stochastically fitted for a height of 5' even, the error is linearly increasing with deviation from that height. This is not particularly controversial from a mathematics standing.
3. As a matter of mathematical interest, if my bones alone, never mind the volume of everything else in me, account for 15% of my mass, and my friend's bones are 12% of hers, then exactly 7.6 lbs of our weight difference is just bones. Now, personally, I find it really stupid that if I gain 10 lbs I'm classified as "overweight" but she has to gain 35 lbs to be "overweight". Because my body is clearly larger in frame and muscle. That is a pretty good illustration of the arbitrary nature of BMI when applied to individuals not populations.
4. Also on that matter, the fit of BMI to body fat is considered generally good... To one standard deviation. That's 68%. OK, great. That means if the population is normally distributed 32% are outliers.
If you found the article why link in the abstract????
2nd point you responded to me saying 8lbs of bone was a bit much imo with a negative assertion that it was possible based on you and your friend and there are 2 links...1 is an abstract that doesn't prove it and neither does the 2nd.
No where did I say frame size of people was all the same...I said 8lbs of it was a bit much imo and that for those people claiming frame size keeps them in the overweight of bmi they were in denial...perhaps you have me confused with another poster.
Now onto the meat of it.
comparing 12% for your friend and 15% is flawed...apples to apples.
and perhaps you are one of those individuals who is in denial because you are almost in the overweight category????and that is causing a bias in your argument...been there done that until I wasn't in the overweight category and still wearing a size 8 shoe...and still "big boned" but a hella lot less fat.
I think accusing someone of being “in denial” about their body because you disagree with them on a point of them on a point of science is out of line and deserves an apology.
Yes, pander to delusion. That’s helpful.
Have you ever seen her progress pictures? There's no delusion going on.6 -
1st one is an abstract and is from 2002...almost 20 years old????
I'm sure you are capable of finding the full article and reading it. I know I managed to do it. And I'm not sure why you have an issue with an article published 15 years ago. Unless time itself invalidates science.
and it doesn't address your assertion that bone size difference can account for 8+lbs in body weight variance of two people who are same gender, height and race.and the 2nd one doesn't prove anything about your original assertion either...we know that Asians have a different BMI scale than we do and has nothing to do with your original argument or the original post...My original assertion..BMI is a good measure for the average population and that there are few outliers in that population...and that it is not "bone size" that will account for people being categorized as overweight or obese it's fat.
1. that the cutoff of 25 is arbitrary and not supported by morbidity and morality data for all populations. The existence of separate recommendations for Asians is evidence.
2. The BMI scale itself is flawed because it assumes a relationship of height to volume (mass) of h*h while volume is a cubic relationship. Being stochastically fitted for a height of 5' even, the error is linearly increasing with deviation from that height. This is not particularly controversial from a mathematics standing.
3. As a matter of mathematical interest, if my bones alone, never mind the volume of everything else in me, account for 15% of my mass, and my friend's bones are 12% of hers, then exactly 7.6 lbs of our weight difference is just bones. Now, personally, I find it really stupid that if I gain 10 lbs I'm classified as "overweight" but she has to gain 35 lbs to be "overweight". Because my body is clearly larger in frame and muscle. That is a pretty good illustration of the arbitrary nature of BMI when applied to individuals not populations.
4. Also on that matter, the fit of BMI to body fat is considered generally good... To one standard deviation. That's 68%. OK, great. That means if the population is normally distributed 32% are outliers.
If you found the article why link in the abstract????
2nd point you responded to me saying 8lbs of bone was a bit much imo with a negative assertion that it was possible based on you and your friend and there are 2 links...1 is an abstract that doesn't prove it and neither does the 2nd.
No where did I say frame size of people was all the same...I said 8lbs of it was a bit much imo and that for those people claiming frame size keeps them in the overweight of bmi they were in denial...perhaps you have me confused with another poster.
Now onto the meat of it.
comparing 12% for your friend and 15% is flawed...apples to apples.
and perhaps you are one of those individuals who is in denial because you are almost in the overweight category????and that is causing a bias in your argument...been there done that until I wasn't in the overweight category and still wearing a size 8 shoe...and still "big boned" but a hella lot less fat.
I think accusing someone of being “in denial” about their body because you disagree with them on a point of them on a point of science is out of line and deserves an apology.
I am not disagreeing on a point of science. She disagreed and argued that she is "bigger" because of bone size...I say no way...people who think that are in denial and are more fat than they want to admit.
Point of science is this.
BMI is a good measure for the average person (at least it is currently)
12-15% of the body weight of a person is from bone no more no less.
if you are in the overweight category for BMI it's not from bones...chances are you are overfat (unless an outlier who has exceptional muscle mass) and yes I will say that there are those who are outlier.
This poster is not.
ETA: so no apology will be forthcoming from me.
That poster isn't overweight. She's within healthy range for BMI. You just moved the goalposts. She's near the top range for her BMI because she has a large frame.
She's not in denial and yes, you do owe her an apology.13 -
bmeadows380 wrote: »I mean I wear a size 8-9 shoe ...that's pretty big for a woman...
I'd absolutely LOVE to be in a size 8-9 shoe. In the US, anyway, every style out there shows up in those sizes, unlike in my size. I've been wearing an 11/12 shoe in women's (US sizes) since I was a teenager. And as I lose weight, while I know I'll hopefully move from WW widths down to W widths and perhaps even regular widths, I'd been surprised if the actually size number itself went down.
And let me tell you - it is ever a pain to find shoes! This is why I have 1 pair of dress shoes and wear men's shoes for work as it's much easier to find loafers that fit in a men's 9 1/2 to 10 than a woman's 11......
And to clarify, according to the chart I found online, a US women's 11 is a UK women's 10.5 and an EU 44-45.
Shoe sizes are 2-2.5 sizes down in the UK. I know because I'm a UK 5/5.5 and buy US 7/7.5.0 -
Also, size 8 feet (I'm assuming US sizing?) isn't large at all. It's average. It's on of the sizes that sells out fastest because it's the most common size (actually more like 7-8 but leaning more towards 8 now because we're all bigger).
Yours,
Someone who has worked in shoe retail more times than I'd ever hoped.6 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »1st one is an abstract and is from 2002...almost 20 years old????
I'm sure you are capable of finding the full article and reading it. I know I managed to do it. And I'm not sure why you have an issue with an article published 15 years ago. Unless time itself invalidates science.
and it doesn't address your assertion that bone size difference can account for 8+lbs in body weight variance of two people who are same gender, height and race.and the 2nd one doesn't prove anything about your original assertion either...we know that Asians have a different BMI scale than we do and has nothing to do with your original argument or the original post...My original assertion..BMI is a good measure for the average population and that there are few outliers in that population...and that it is not "bone size" that will account for people being categorized as overweight or obese it's fat.
1. that the cutoff of 25 is arbitrary and not supported by morbidity and morality data for all populations. The existence of separate recommendations for Asians is evidence.
2. The BMI scale itself is flawed because it assumes a relationship of height to volume (mass) of h*h while volume is a cubic relationship. Being stochastically fitted for a height of 5' even, the error is linearly increasing with deviation from that height. This is not particularly controversial from a mathematics standing.
3. As a matter of mathematical interest, if my bones alone, never mind the volume of everything else in me, account for 15% of my mass, and my friend's bones are 12% of hers, then exactly 7.6 lbs of our weight difference is just bones. Now, personally, I find it really stupid that if I gain 10 lbs I'm classified as "overweight" but she has to gain 35 lbs to be "overweight". Because my body is clearly larger in frame and muscle. That is a pretty good illustration of the arbitrary nature of BMI when applied to individuals not populations.
4. Also on that matter, the fit of BMI to body fat is considered generally good... To one standard deviation. That's 68%. OK, great. That means if the population is normally distributed 32% are outliers.
If you found the article why link in the abstract????
2nd point you responded to me saying 8lbs of bone was a bit much imo with a negative assertion that it was possible based on you and your friend and there are 2 links...1 is an abstract that doesn't prove it and neither does the 2nd.
No where did I say frame size of people was all the same...I said 8lbs of it was a bit much imo and that for those people claiming frame size keeps them in the overweight of bmi they were in denial...perhaps you have me confused with another poster.
Now onto the meat of it.
comparing 12% for your friend and 15% is flawed...apples to apples.
and perhaps you are one of those individuals who is in denial because you are almost in the overweight category????and that is causing a bias in your argument...been there done that until I wasn't in the overweight category and still wearing a size 8 shoe...and still "big boned" but a hella lot less fat.
I think accusing someone of being “in denial” about their body because you disagree with them on a point of them on a point of science is out of line and deserves an apology.
Cosigned.
And also? She's posted pictures. She's not in denial.
Yes, this.
People have different builds. I look kind of fat still at 25 BMI, since I have a more delicate build. I don't think it's because my bones weigh whatever, but it is a genuine difference. Other people my height look thinner than me at higher weights. And there are many things that go along with a bigger overall frame than bone weight -- different structure means fat is spread differently, perhaps, muscle may be naturally a bit higher. I don't know exactly why, but it's true.4 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »1st one is an abstract and is from 2002...almost 20 years old????
I'm sure you are capable of finding the full article and reading it. I know I managed to do it. And I'm not sure why you have an issue with an article published 15 years ago. Unless time itself invalidates science.
and it doesn't address your assertion that bone size difference can account for 8+lbs in body weight variance of two people who are same gender, height and race.and the 2nd one doesn't prove anything about your original assertion either...we know that Asians have a different BMI scale than we do and has nothing to do with your original argument or the original post...My original assertion..BMI is a good measure for the average population and that there are few outliers in that population...and that it is not "bone size" that will account for people being categorized as overweight or obese it's fat.
1. that the cutoff of 25 is arbitrary and not supported by morbidity and morality data for all populations. The existence of separate recommendations for Asians is evidence.
2. The BMI scale itself is flawed because it assumes a relationship of height to volume (mass) of h*h while volume is a cubic relationship. Being stochastically fitted for a height of 5' even, the error is linearly increasing with deviation from that height. This is not particularly controversial from a mathematics standing.
3. As a matter of mathematical interest, if my bones alone, never mind the volume of everything else in me, account for 15% of my mass, and my friend's bones are 12% of hers, then exactly 7.6 lbs of our weight difference is just bones. Now, personally, I find it really stupid that if I gain 10 lbs I'm classified as "overweight" but she has to gain 35 lbs to be "overweight". Because my body is clearly larger in frame and muscle. That is a pretty good illustration of the arbitrary nature of BMI when applied to individuals not populations.
4. Also on that matter, the fit of BMI to body fat is considered generally good... To one standard deviation. That's 68%. OK, great. That means if the population is normally distributed 32% are outliers.
If you found the article why link in the abstract????
2nd point you responded to me saying 8lbs of bone was a bit much imo with a negative assertion that it was possible based on you and your friend and there are 2 links...1 is an abstract that doesn't prove it and neither does the 2nd.
No where did I say frame size of people was all the same...I said 8lbs of it was a bit much imo and that for those people claiming frame size keeps them in the overweight of bmi they were in denial...perhaps you have me confused with another poster.
Now onto the meat of it.
comparing 12% for your friend and 15% is flawed...apples to apples.
and perhaps you are one of those individuals who is in denial because you are almost in the overweight category????and that is causing a bias in your argument...been there done that until I wasn't in the overweight category and still wearing a size 8 shoe...and still "big boned" but a hella lot less fat.
I think accusing someone of being “in denial” about their body because you disagree with them on a point of them on a point of science is out of line and deserves an apology.
I am not disagreeing on a point of science. She disagreed and argued that she is "bigger" because of bone size...I say no way...people who think that are in denial and are more fat than they want to admit.
Point of science is this.
BMI is a good measure for the average person (at least it is currently)
12-15% of the body weight of a person is from bone no more no less.
if you are in the overweight category for BMI it's not from bones...chances are you are overfat (unless an outlier who has exceptional muscle mass) and yes I will say that there are those who are outlier.
This poster is not.
ETA: so no apology will be forthcoming from me.
That poster isn't overweight. She's within healthy range for BMI. You just moved the goalposts. She's near the top range for her BMI because she has a large frame.
She's not in denial and yes, you do owe her an apology.
1. I never said she didn't have a large frame.
2. She contended bmi is not valid due to bone size which is invalid.
3. I never said she was over weight I said she might be on the top end because she had more weight than she wants to admit aka denial.
And I will not apologize for that.
I will stand by my original statement that those who say bmi doesn't apply to them are most likely in denial as the outliers are not that common.9 -
VintageFeline wrote: »Also, size 8 feet (I'm assuming US sizing?) isn't large at all. It's average. It's on of the sizes that sells out fastest because it's the most common size (actually more like 7-8 but leaning more towards 8 now because we're all bigger).
Yours,
Someone who has worked in shoe retail more times than I'd ever hoped.
yes, I know size 8 in US sizing isn't large at all. That's why I said I'd love to be in a size 8. I am in a US size 11/12, which is definitely considered large for a female0 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »1st one is an abstract and is from 2002...almost 20 years old????
I'm sure you are capable of finding the full article and reading it. I know I managed to do it. And I'm not sure why you have an issue with an article published 15 years ago. Unless time itself invalidates science.
and it doesn't address your assertion that bone size difference can account for 8+lbs in body weight variance of two people who are same gender, height and race.and the 2nd one doesn't prove anything about your original assertion either...we know that Asians have a different BMI scale than we do and has nothing to do with your original argument or the original post...My original assertion..BMI is a good measure for the average population and that there are few outliers in that population...and that it is not "bone size" that will account for people being categorized as overweight or obese it's fat.
1. that the cutoff of 25 is arbitrary and not supported by morbidity and morality data for all populations. The existence of separate recommendations for Asians is evidence.
2. The BMI scale itself is flawed because it assumes a relationship of height to volume (mass) of h*h while volume is a cubic relationship. Being stochastically fitted for a height of 5' even, the error is linearly increasing with deviation from that height. This is not particularly controversial from a mathematics standing.
3. As a matter of mathematical interest, if my bones alone, never mind the volume of everything else in me, account for 15% of my mass, and my friend's bones are 12% of hers, then exactly 7.6 lbs of our weight difference is just bones. Now, personally, I find it really stupid that if I gain 10 lbs I'm classified as "overweight" but she has to gain 35 lbs to be "overweight". Because my body is clearly larger in frame and muscle. That is a pretty good illustration of the arbitrary nature of BMI when applied to individuals not populations.
4. Also on that matter, the fit of BMI to body fat is considered generally good... To one standard deviation. That's 68%. OK, great. That means if the population is normally distributed 32% are outliers.
If you found the article why link in the abstract????
2nd point you responded to me saying 8lbs of bone was a bit much imo with a negative assertion that it was possible based on you and your friend and there are 2 links...1 is an abstract that doesn't prove it and neither does the 2nd.
No where did I say frame size of people was all the same...I said 8lbs of it was a bit much imo and that for those people claiming frame size keeps them in the overweight of bmi they were in denial...perhaps you have me confused with another poster.
Now onto the meat of it.
comparing 12% for your friend and 15% is flawed...apples to apples.
and perhaps you are one of those individuals who is in denial because you are almost in the overweight category????and that is causing a bias in your argument...been there done that until I wasn't in the overweight category and still wearing a size 8 shoe...and still "big boned" but a hella lot less fat.
I think accusing someone of being “in denial” about their body because you disagree with them on a point of them on a point of science is out of line and deserves an apology.
I am not disagreeing on a point of science. She disagreed and argued that she is "bigger" because of bone size...I say no way...people who think that are in denial and are more fat than they want to admit.
Point of science is this.
BMI is a good measure for the average person (at least it is currently)
12-15% of the body weight of a person is from bone no more no less.
if you are in the overweight category for BMI it's not from bones...chances are you are overfat (unless an outlier who has exceptional muscle mass) and yes I will say that there are those who are outlier.
This poster is not.
ETA: so no apology will be forthcoming from me.
That poster isn't overweight. She's within healthy range for BMI. You just moved the goalposts. She's near the top range for her BMI because she has a large frame.
She's not in denial and yes, you do owe her an apology.
And how did I move the goal posts?
5 -
bmeadows380 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Also, size 8 feet (I'm assuming US sizing?) isn't large at all. It's average. It's on of the sizes that sells out fastest because it's the most common size (actually more like 7-8 but leaning more towards 8 now because we're all bigger).
Yours,
Someone who has worked in shoe retail more times than I'd ever hoped.
yes, I know size 8 in US sizing isn't large at all. That's why I said I'd love to be in a size 8. I am in a US size 11/12, which is definitely considered large for a female
That response wasn't aimed at you but at Stef who said she had big feet.3 -
bmeadows380 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Also, size 8 feet (I'm assuming US sizing?) isn't large at all. It's average. It's on of the sizes that sells out fastest because it's the most common size (actually more like 7-8 but leaning more towards 8 now because we're all bigger).
Yours,
Someone who has worked in shoe retail more times than I'd ever hoped.
yes, I know size 8 in US sizing isn't large at all. That's why I said I'd love to be in a size 8. I am in a US size 11/12, which is definitely considered large for a female
Size 8 shoe is not average for women 7 is or 7.5. That might not seem like much bit it is enough that a 7 I can't even fit my foot in it.
I used to wear a 9 but with weight loss I'm in an 8.6 -
VintageFeline wrote: »bmeadows380 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Also, size 8 feet (I'm assuming US sizing?) isn't large at all. It's average. It's on of the sizes that sells out fastest because it's the most common size (actually more like 7-8 but leaning more towards 8 now because we're all bigger).
Yours,
Someone who has worked in shoe retail more times than I'd ever hoped.
yes, I know size 8 in US sizing isn't large at all. That's why I said I'd love to be in a size 8. I am in a US size 11/12, which is definitely considered large for a female
That response wasn't aimed at you but at Stef who said she had big feet.
Yes I umderstood. Surprised me tho that size 8 is considered average...none of my friend wear anything bigger than a 7.5 except me and 1 other..5 -
VintageFeline wrote: »bmeadows380 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Also, size 8 feet (I'm assuming US sizing?) isn't large at all. It's average. It's on of the sizes that sells out fastest because it's the most common size (actually more like 7-8 but leaning more towards 8 now because we're all bigger).
Yours,
Someone who has worked in shoe retail more times than I'd ever hoped.
yes, I know size 8 in US sizing isn't large at all. That's why I said I'd love to be in a size 8. I am in a US size 11/12, which is definitely considered large for a female
That response wasn't aimed at you but at Stef who said she had big feet.
Yes I umderstood. Surprised me tho that size 8 is considered average...none of my friend wear anything bigger than a 7.5 except me and 1 other..
Yeah, back when I had my first weekend job it was in a shoe shop. Average then was a 5/38/7 depending where in the world you are. Now it's gone up one. My feet have shrunk too, usually more of a 5/7 than a 6/8 now!4 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »1st one is an abstract and is from 2002...almost 20 years old????
I'm sure you are capable of finding the full article and reading it. I know I managed to do it. And I'm not sure why you have an issue with an article published 15 years ago. Unless time itself invalidates science.
and it doesn't address your assertion that bone size difference can account for 8+lbs in body weight variance of two people who are same gender, height and race.and the 2nd one doesn't prove anything about your original assertion either...we know that Asians have a different BMI scale than we do and has nothing to do with your original argument or the original post...My original assertion..BMI is a good measure for the average population and that there are few outliers in that population...and that it is not "bone size" that will account for people being categorized as overweight or obese it's fat.
1. that the cutoff of 25 is arbitrary and not supported by morbidity and morality data for all populations. The existence of separate recommendations for Asians is evidence.
2. The BMI scale itself is flawed because it assumes a relationship of height to volume (mass) of h*h while volume is a cubic relationship. Being stochastically fitted for a height of 5' even, the error is linearly increasing with deviation from that height. This is not particularly controversial from a mathematics standing.
3. As a matter of mathematical interest, if my bones alone, never mind the volume of everything else in me, account for 15% of my mass, and my friend's bones are 12% of hers, then exactly 7.6 lbs of our weight difference is just bones. Now, personally, I find it really stupid that if I gain 10 lbs I'm classified as "overweight" but she has to gain 35 lbs to be "overweight". Because my body is clearly larger in frame and muscle. That is a pretty good illustration of the arbitrary nature of BMI when applied to individuals not populations.
4. Also on that matter, the fit of BMI to body fat is considered generally good... To one standard deviation. That's 68%. OK, great. That means if the population is normally distributed 32% are outliers.
If you found the article why link in the abstract????
2nd point you responded to me saying 8lbs of bone was a bit much imo with a negative assertion that it was possible based on you and your friend and there are 2 links...1 is an abstract that doesn't prove it and neither does the 2nd.
No where did I say frame size of people was all the same...I said 8lbs of it was a bit much imo and that for those people claiming frame size keeps them in the overweight of bmi they were in denial...perhaps you have me confused with another poster.
Now onto the meat of it.
comparing 12% for your friend and 15% is flawed...apples to apples.
and perhaps you are one of those individuals who is in denial because you are almost in the overweight category????and that is causing a bias in your argument...been there done that until I wasn't in the overweight category and still wearing a size 8 shoe...and still "big boned" but a hella lot less fat.
I think accusing someone of being “in denial” about their body because you disagree with them on a point of them on a point of science is out of line and deserves an apology.
I am not disagreeing on a point of science. She disagreed and argued that she is "bigger" because of bone size...I say no way...people who think that are in denial and are more fat than they want to admit.
Point of science is this.
BMI is a good measure for the average person (at least it is currently)
12-15% of the body weight of a person is from bone no more no less.
if you are in the overweight category for BMI it's not from bones...chances are you are overfat (unless an outlier who has exceptional muscle mass) and yes I will say that there are those who are outlier.
This poster is not.
ETA: so no apology will be forthcoming from me.
That poster isn't overweight. She's within healthy range for BMI. You just moved the goalposts. She's near the top range for her BMI because she has a large frame.
She's not in denial and yes, you do owe her an apology.
And how did I move the goal posts?
Your wording was ambiguous.
And you are missing the poster's point.
Her point isn't that BMI is worthless. Her point is that it's only useful to a point. Her point is that there are outliers beyond the muscle bound because statistics say so, and she made the point mathematically and no one seemed to follow it.
Everyone seems to think that someone at the top end of BMI range can't possibly be lean, and I can guarantee you that the poster in question is indeed rather slim. If she'd know that I'd meant it as a compliment, I'd even call her skinny. It's ridiculous that she's only 10 pounds from overweight from BMI standards, because you'd NEVER know it from looking at her.
She is indeed an outlier, for whatever reason. Different people have different builds. One of her issues is that she has scoliosis and should be taller than she is by, IIRC, about 5 inches. She has the bones and musculature of a taller person, but her BMI is calculated based on her measured height.13 -
To add. She currently weighs five pounds less than this. No denial going on.
@tomteboda, I apologize. I know you are perfectly capable of handling this yourself, but I thought what was going on in here was particularly ugly and I know you faced obstacles in losing weight due to health issues and admired your approach so much.
community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/38816351/#Comment_388163518 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »To add. She currently weighs five pounds less than this. No denial going on.
@tomteboda, I apologize. I know you are perfectly capable of handling this yourself, but I thought what was going on in here was particularly ugly and I know you faced obstacles in losing weight due to health issues and admired your approach so much.
community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/38816351/#Comment_38816351
No where in any post of mine did I say she was overfat
Nor overweight or any of the sort.
Nor outside of a healthy BMI range
She compared herself to a friend who is same height and 130 lbs vs her at 155lbs...and said that is was frame size. I never said it wasn't...my contention is that those who are overweight and claim it's being big boned could probably lose some fat and that 8lbs of bone mass was probably a bit high considering that 12-15% of total weight is attributed to bone weight (based on bone size at the point where growth has stopped)
You took my question of "are you in denial?" and ran down a path that wasn't needed and called it "an ugly path".
Those who are insisting that I "called" her anything are the ones who made it ugly....
I will continue to stand by my original statement.
BMI is a valid measurement for most (note most) where there are outliers...but most of those who claim to be outliers are typically in denial due to lack of knowledge or just denial as to what is really going on.
And your assertion that she is 10lbs from a BMI standard of overweight means that she isn't an outlier...she is in a healthy weight category...so not sure how she is an outlier....
and what wording was ambigous please...there were more than 1 or 2 posts where we were debating.
As for the math..how did people not follow it?
ETA: and no where in any of my posts have I asserted that people on the high end of BMi can't be lean...
and if my post was so mean and awful then please report it and have MFP staff moderate it as I feel that they would have a better handle on a objective judgement.11 -
1st one is an abstract and is from 2002...almost 20 years old????
I'm sure you are capable of finding the full article and reading it. I know I managed to do it. And I'm not sure why you have an issue with an article published 15 years ago. Unless time itself invalidates science.
and it doesn't address your assertion that bone size difference can account for 8+lbs in body weight variance of two people who are same gender, height and race.and the 2nd one doesn't prove anything about your original assertion either...we know that Asians have a different BMI scale than we do and has nothing to do with your original argument or the original post...My original assertion..BMI is a good measure for the average population and that there are few outliers in that population...and that it is not "bone size" that will account for people being categorized as overweight or obese it's fat.
1. that the cutoff of 25 is arbitrary and not supported by morbidity and morality data for all populations. The existence of separate recommendations for Asians is evidence.
2. The BMI scale itself is flawed because it assumes a relationship of height to volume (mass) of h*h while volume is a cubic relationship. Being stochastically fitted for a height of 5' even, the error is linearly increasing with deviation from that height. This is not particularly controversial from a mathematics standing.
3. As a matter of mathematical interest, if my bones alone, never mind the volume of everything else in me, account for 15% of my mass, and my friend's bones are 12% of hers, then exactly 7.6 lbs of our weight difference is just bones. Now, personally, I find it really stupid that if I gain 10 lbs I'm classified as "overweight" but she has to gain 35 lbs to be "overweight". Because my body is clearly larger in frame and muscle. That is a pretty good illustration of the arbitrary nature of BMI when applied to individuals not populations.
4. Also on that matter, the fit of BMI to body fat is considered generally good... To one standard deviation. That's 68%. OK, great. That means if the population is normally distributed 32% are outliers.
If you found the article why link in the abstract????
2nd point you responded to me saying 8lbs of bone was a bit much imo with a negative assertion that it was possible based on you and your friend and there are 2 links...1 is an abstract that doesn't prove it and neither does the 2nd.
No where did I say frame size of people was all the same...I said 8lbs of it was a bit much imo and that for those people claiming frame size keeps them in the overweight of bmi they were in denial...perhaps you have me confused with another poster.
Now onto the meat of it.
comparing 12% for your friend and 15% is flawed...apples to apples.
and perhaps you are one of those individuals who is in denial because you are almost in the overweight category????and that is causing a bias in your argument...been there done that until I wasn't in the overweight category and still wearing a size 8 shoe...and still "big boned" but a hella lot less fat.
I think accusing someone of being “in denial” about their body because you disagree with them on a point of them on a point of science is out of line and deserves an apology.
I am not disagreeing on a point of science. She disagreed and argued that she is "bigger" because of bone size...I say no way...people who think that are in denial and are more fat than they want to admit.
Point of science is this.
BMI is a good measure for the average person (at least it is currently)
12-15% of the body weight of a person is from bone no more no less.
if you are in the overweight category for BMI it's not from bones...chances are you are overfat (unless an outlier who has exceptional muscle mass) and yes I will say that there are those who are outlier.
This poster is not.
ETA: so no apology will be forthcoming from me.
Is she more fat than she wants to admit?
6 -
time for drinks4
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Here's a confounding factor.
I mentioned that the poster being discussed has scoliosis. So do I. That's a confounding factor for BMI. I used to be 2 inches taller. I have the bones and musculature of a 2 inches taller person.
For every person who has scoliosis, which is a more accurate BMI... their height before with or without curvature?
Edit: I feel the need to mention that I am within normal BMI parameters either way. It's just a matter of number juggling.10 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »To add. She currently weighs five pounds less than this. No denial going on.
@tomteboda, I apologize. I know you are perfectly capable of handling this yourself, but I thought what was going on in here was particularly ugly and I know you faced obstacles in losing weight due to health issues and admired your approach so much.
community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/38816351/#Comment_38816351
Thank you. No need to apologize, your stepping up is appreciated. I was pondering how to reply and get the discussion back on track after derailing it by using myself as an example to illustrate how the weight range hypothetical can be quite real.
You have summarized my position quite well, and I thank you!5
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