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Is every single body in the world intended to be within the so-called healthy BMI range?
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I actually think that BMI is more often a poor indicator in the opposite direction than people think. I carry all my weight around my middle so even once I got to a healthy weight by BMI standards, I still had a 33.5 inch waist (at 5 ft 3) and would not say that I was healthy. I am now 10lbs below the top end of BMI and have finally got my waist below 30 inches. If I had stopped losing weight at a healthy BMI I would still be at risk of all the health problems associated with visceral fat.3
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Yes I could have found that myself but you at first chose to link in an abstract, that did not support your point so ergo the full blown article isn't looking that promising either.
I never once contended that there isn't a difference based on skeletal shape and size...I said I felt 8lbs was probably a bit of an overshoot on the variance and that those in the overweight category who blamed "big bones" were probably in denial...not all but most. Even if you take a low % such as 12% and compare against 15% for you and your friend it's not 8lbs...not saying 8lbs isn't a viable variance but not for the norm when comparing apples to apples. aka 5 ft 6 woman of 42 to 5 ft 6 woman of 42 both of same race and with no other conditions that causes them to be outliers.
again the abstract nor the study confirm I am wrong.
You then used yourself and a friend when in fact you knew you are one of the few who falls outside the norm...muddying the debate totally with an apples to oranges comparison that would fall in your favour.
and if that is how you want to prove your point...have at.10 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »1st one is an abstract and is from 2002...almost 20 years old????
I'm sure you are capable of finding the full article and reading it. I know I managed to do it. And I'm not sure why you have an issue with an article published 15 years ago. Unless time itself invalidates science.
and it doesn't address your assertion that bone size difference can account for 8+lbs in body weight variance of two people who are same gender, height and race.and the 2nd one doesn't prove anything about your original assertion either...we know that Asians have a different BMI scale than we do and has nothing to do with your original argument or the original post...My original assertion..BMI is a good measure for the average population and that there are few outliers in that population...and that it is not "bone size" that will account for people being categorized as overweight or obese it's fat.
1. that the cutoff of 25 is arbitrary and not supported by morbidity and morality data for all populations. The existence of separate recommendations for Asians is evidence.
2. The BMI scale itself is flawed because it assumes a relationship of height to volume (mass) of h*h while volume is a cubic relationship. Being stochastically fitted for a height of 5' even, the error is linearly increasing with deviation from that height. This is not particularly controversial from a mathematics standing.
3. As a matter of mathematical interest, if my bones alone, never mind the volume of everything else in me, account for 15% of my mass, and my friend's bones are 12% of hers, then exactly 7.6 lbs of our weight difference is just bones. Now, personally, I find it really stupid that if I gain 10 lbs I'm classified as "overweight" but she has to gain 35 lbs to be "overweight". Because my body is clearly larger in frame and muscle. That is a pretty good illustration of the arbitrary nature of BMI when applied to individuals not populations.
4. Also on that matter, the fit of BMI to body fat is considered generally good... To one standard deviation. That's 68%. OK, great. That means if the population is normally distributed 32% are outliers.
If you found the article why link in the abstract????
2nd point you responded to me saying 8lbs of bone was a bit much imo with a negative assertion that it was possible based on you and your friend and there are 2 links...1 is an abstract that doesn't prove it and neither does the 2nd.
No where did I say frame size of people was all the same...I said 8lbs of it was a bit much imo and that for those people claiming frame size keeps them in the overweight of bmi they were in denial...perhaps you have me confused with another poster.
Now onto the meat of it.
comparing 12% for your friend and 15% is flawed...apples to apples.
and perhaps you are one of those individuals who is in denial because you are almost in the overweight category????and that is causing a bias in your argument...been there done that until I wasn't in the overweight category and still wearing a size 8 shoe...and still "big boned" but a hella lot less fat.
I think accusing someone of being “in denial” about their body because you disagree with them on a point of them on a point of science is out of line and deserves an apology.
I am not disagreeing on a point of science. She disagreed and argued that she is "bigger" because of bone size...I say no way...people who think that are in denial and are more fat than they want to admit.
Point of science is this.
BMI is a good measure for the average person (at least it is currently)
12-15% of the body weight of a person is from bone no more no less.
if you are in the overweight category for BMI it's not from bones...chances are you are overfat (unless an outlier who has exceptional muscle mass) and yes I will say that there are those who are outlier.
This poster is not.
ETA: so no apology will be forthcoming from me.
Is she more fat than she wants to admit?
is she in the overweight range?1 -
Yes I could have found that myself but you at first chose to link in an abstract, that did not support your point so ergo the full blown article isn't looking that promising either.
I never once contended that there isn't a difference based on skeletal shape and size...I said I felt 8lbs was probably a bit of an overshoot on the variance and that those in the overweight category who blamed "big bones" were probably in denial...not all but most. Even if you take a low % such as 12% and compare against 15% for you and your friend it's not 8lbs...not saying 8lbs isn't a viable variance but not for the norm when comparing apples to apples. aka 5 ft 6 woman of 42 to 5 ft 6 woman of 42 both of same race and with no other conditions that causes them to be outliers.
again the abstract nor the study confirm I am wrong.
You then used yourself and a friend when in fact you knew you are one of the few who falls outside the norm...muddying the debate totally with an apples to oranges comparison that would fall in your favour.
and if that is how you want to prove your point...have at.
Hilarious. You totally ignore the post where I point out the link to the full document on the initial referenced page, which was the official publication. I referenced correctly, your inability to use a hypertext link on the official journal article page is really astounding.11 -
Yes I could have found that myself but you at first chose to link in an abstract, that did not support your point so ergo the full blown article isn't looking that promising either.
I never once contended that there isn't a difference based on skeletal shape and size...I said I felt 8lbs was probably a bit of an overshoot on the variance and that those in the overweight category who blamed "big bones" were probably in denial...not all but most. Even if you take a low % such as 12% and compare against 15% for you and your friend it's not 8lbs...not saying 8lbs isn't a viable variance but not for the norm when comparing apples to apples. aka 5 ft 6 woman of 42 to 5 ft 6 woman of 42 both of same race and with no other conditions that causes them to be outliers.
again the abstract nor the study confirm I am wrong.
You then used yourself and a friend when in fact you knew you are one of the few who falls outside the norm...muddying the debate totally with an apples to oranges comparison that would fall in your favour.
and if that is how you want to prove your point...have at.
Hilarious. You totally ignore the post where I point out the link to the full document on the initial referenced page, which was the official publication. I referenced correctly, your inability to use a hypertext link on the official journal article page is really astounding.
come now this isn't about the link...you could have linked in the full article in the first place but you didn't...and neither the full article or the abstract even talk about BMI...which is exactly what this discussion is about? why derail?
But that is not part of the issue..the issue is this
you haven't proven anything. Yes there are variations in the human body based on skeletal size and race and gender.
No one ever said that didn't exist.
my original contention is that if you are in the overweight category for BMI you are probably overweight and if you choose to say it's bone size you are probably in denial...but all the while acknowledging that there are outliers.
But what you fail to address is that you muddied the debate by using yourself, fully aware of the fact that you are in fact probably an outlier to compare yourself to a person who is not.
anyway...I am enjoying my sunday morning coffee and feel that this is only going to go down another obvious rabbit hole that isn't going to prove anything other than BMI is a valid measure for most people when it comes to defining if they are at a healthy weight.13 -
If it wasn't the point, why did you dismiss my argument basd upon my failure to directly facilitate piracy of the article? Even providing you with the hypertext link to the article was a kindness, and in return you insulted me and metaphorically spit upon me.
And don't even get me started about the dismissal of a source which was 15 years old. I can't wait to bring that up the next time I introduce newtonian physics.
You are welcome to your blind adherence to a government standard because it's a government standard.11 -
If it wasn't the point, why did you dismiss my argument basd upon my failure to directly facilitate piracy of the article? Even providing you with the hypertext link to the article was a kindness, and in return you insulted me and metaphorically spit upon me.
And don't even get me started about the dismissal of a source which was 15 years old. I can't wait to bring that up the next time I introduce newtonian physics.
You are welcome to your blind adherence to a government standard because it's a government standard.
I pointed out it was an older article and only the abstract. I didn't dismiss based on those facts.
I read the abstract and noted it wasn't on point and that it was an older study...so what? it wasn't on point. It never once mentioned BMI and how it wasn't valid...I have yet to see you address that? why not address that instead of addressing the fact I pointed out the age...address the fact it didn't prove your point.
Providing me with the actual article could have been done from the start but you chose not to and I pointed that out.
and metaphorically spitting on you is a reach...a big one.
and if you want to continue that sort of talk please again report my post to MFP and let them moderate as they see fit.
and again you are still arguing I said something I didn't. I don't blindly adhere to BMI because it's a government standard. I say it is a good measure for most....not all.
Will that change in time, probably...as we adapt and evolve but for now..it works for most.
It is not my fault you muddied the debate with a comparison that wasn't valid and failed to divulge information that was relevant....but again have at.
but enough with this bull back and forth. you did not prove BMI is not a valid measure for an average individual and you didn't prove that if you are in the overweight category it's because of bone weight....or that 8lbs of bone is a viable variance for most people.
So it's been a couple days and by this time it's not going to happen and since you don't want to admit that and instead are going down a different path and derailing I will just move along.10 -
VintageFeline wrote: »bmeadows380 wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Also, size 8 feet (I'm assuming US sizing?) isn't large at all. It's average. It's on of the sizes that sells out fastest because it's the most common size (actually more like 7-8 but leaning more towards 8 now because we're all bigger).
Yours,
Someone who has worked in shoe retail more times than I'd ever hoped.
yes, I know size 8 in US sizing isn't large at all. That's why I said I'd love to be in a size 8. I am in a US size 11/12, which is definitely considered large for a female
That response wasn't aimed at you but at Stef who said she had big feet.
ah! my apologies - the way the MFP groups together quotes had mine as the last quote showing. sorry!2 -
Here's one good comparison of BF% and BMI (given that the purpose of BMI is to act as a proxy for BF%): https://bmcobes.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/2052-9538-1-9
Key findings (note, this is for white people in Australia, there are likely race-based differences):
*17.3% of women and 31.6% of men identified as obese according to BMI were not, based on BF%.
*19.9% of women and 46.1% of men who were NOT obese by BMI actually were by BF%
*BMI particularly underestimates adiposity in elderly men (aged 70 years and older), but also in young men (aged 20–29 years).
That's different from another such study I recall seeing in the past, where it was much more likely to mischaracterize women as not obese when they were than obese when they were not. There was more mischaracterization for the overweight category in that one (this one focused on obesity measures only).4 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »1st one is an abstract and is from 2002...almost 20 years old????
I'm sure you are capable of finding the full article and reading it. I know I managed to do it. And I'm not sure why you have an issue with an article published 15 years ago. Unless time itself invalidates science.
and it doesn't address your assertion that bone size difference can account for 8+lbs in body weight variance of two people who are same gender, height and race.and the 2nd one doesn't prove anything about your original assertion either...we know that Asians have a different BMI scale than we do and has nothing to do with your original argument or the original post...My original assertion..BMI is a good measure for the average population and that there are few outliers in that population...and that it is not "bone size" that will account for people being categorized as overweight or obese it's fat.
1. that the cutoff of 25 is arbitrary and not supported by morbidity and morality data for all populations. The existence of separate recommendations for Asians is evidence.
2. The BMI scale itself is flawed because it assumes a relationship of height to volume (mass) of h*h while volume is a cubic relationship. Being stochastically fitted for a height of 5' even, the error is linearly increasing with deviation from that height. This is not particularly controversial from a mathematics standing.
3. As a matter of mathematical interest, if my bones alone, never mind the volume of everything else in me, account for 15% of my mass, and my friend's bones are 12% of hers, then exactly 7.6 lbs of our weight difference is just bones. Now, personally, I find it really stupid that if I gain 10 lbs I'm classified as "overweight" but she has to gain 35 lbs to be "overweight". Because my body is clearly larger in frame and muscle. That is a pretty good illustration of the arbitrary nature of BMI when applied to individuals not populations.
4. Also on that matter, the fit of BMI to body fat is considered generally good... To one standard deviation. That's 68%. OK, great. That means if the population is normally distributed 32% are outliers.
If you found the article why link in the abstract????
2nd point you responded to me saying 8lbs of bone was a bit much imo with a negative assertion that it was possible based on you and your friend and there are 2 links...1 is an abstract that doesn't prove it and neither does the 2nd.
No where did I say frame size of people was all the same...I said 8lbs of it was a bit much imo and that for those people claiming frame size keeps them in the overweight of bmi they were in denial...perhaps you have me confused with another poster.
Now onto the meat of it.
comparing 12% for your friend and 15% is flawed...apples to apples.
and perhaps you are one of those individuals who is in denial because you are almost in the overweight category????and that is causing a bias in your argument...been there done that until I wasn't in the overweight category and still wearing a size 8 shoe...and still "big boned" but a hella lot less fat.
I think accusing someone of being “in denial” about their body because you disagree with them on a point of them on a point of science is out of line and deserves an apology.
I am not disagreeing on a point of science. She disagreed and argued that she is "bigger" because of bone size...I say no way...people who think that are in denial and are more fat than they want to admit.
Point of science is this.
BMI is a good measure for the average person (at least it is currently)
12-15% of the body weight of a person is from bone no more no less.
if you are in the overweight category for BMI it's not from bones...chances are you are overfat (unless an outlier who has exceptional muscle mass) and yes I will say that there are those who are outlier.
This poster is not.
ETA: so no apology will be forthcoming from me.
Is she more fat than she wants to admit?
is she in the overweight range?
You weren't talking about people in the overweight range in the post I quoted. Merely people who suggest they are bigger due to bone size. Which the OP does. Stop moving the goalposts. You accused the OP of being in denial, which her progress picture clearly shows her not to be.10 -
Yes I could have found that myself but you at first chose to link in an abstract, that did not support your point so ergo the full blown article isn't looking that promising either.
I never once contended that there isn't a difference based on skeletal shape and size...I said I felt 8lbs was probably a bit of an overshoot on the variance and that those in the overweight category who blamed "big bones" were probably in denial...not all but most. Even if you take a low % such as 12% and compare against 15% for you and your friend it's not 8lbs...not saying 8lbs isn't a viable variance but not for the norm when comparing apples to apples. aka 5 ft 6 woman of 42 to 5 ft 6 woman of 42 both of same race and with no other conditions that causes them to be outliers.
again the abstract nor the study confirm I am wrong.
You then used yourself and a friend when in fact you knew you are one of the few who falls outside the norm...muddying the debate totally with an apples to oranges comparison that would fall in your favour.
and if that is how you want to prove your point...have at.
Hilarious. You totally ignore the post where I point out the link to the full document on the initial referenced page, which was the official publication. I referenced correctly, your inability to use a hypertext link on the official journal article page is really astounding.
come now this isn't about the link...you could have linked in the full article in the first place but you didn't...and neither the full article or the abstract even talk about BMI...which is exactly what this discussion is about? why derail?
But that is not part of the issue..the issue is this
you haven't proven anything. Yes there are variations in the human body based on skeletal size and race and gender.
No one ever said that didn't exist.
my original contention is that if you are in the overweight category for BMI you are probably overweight and if you choose to say it's bone size you are probably in denial...but all the while acknowledging that there are outliers.
But what you fail to address is that you muddied the debate by using yourself, fully aware of the fact that you are in fact probably an outlier to compare yourself to a person who is not.
anyway...I am enjoying my sunday morning coffee and feel that this is only going to go down another obvious rabbit hole that isn't going to prove anything other than BMI is a valid measure for most people when it comes to defining if they are at a healthy weight.
She used more than herself as an example.
She used statistics and math to show that there are more outliers than herself and that you think.
You keep missing that THAT is her point, not that BMI isn't a valid measure. It's just that it's valid for a smaller percentage as some people argue it to be.7 -
It is statistics. A 99% confidence interval. There is a 99% chance that an optimally healthy weight for you is within that range.2
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It is statistics. A 99% confidence interval. There is a 99% chance that an optimally healthy weight for you is within that range.
Nope.lemurcat12 wrote: »Here's one good comparison of BF% and BMI (given that the purpose of BMI is to act as a proxy for BF%): https://bmcobes.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/2052-9538-1-9
Key findings (note, this is for white people in Australia, there are likely race-based differences):
*17.3% of women and 31.6% of men identified as obese according to BMI were not, based on BF%.
*19.9% of women and 46.1% of men who were NOT obese by BMI actually were by BF%
*BMI particularly underestimates adiposity in elderly men (aged 70 years and older), but also in young men (aged 20–29 years).
That's different from another such study I recall seeing in the past, where it was much more likely to mischaracterize women as not obese when they were than obese when they were not. There was more mischaracterization for the overweight category in that one (this one focused on obesity measures only).
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »1st one is an abstract and is from 2002...almost 20 years old????
I'm sure you are capable of finding the full article and reading it. I know I managed to do it. And I'm not sure why you have an issue with an article published 15 years ago. Unless time itself invalidates science.
and it doesn't address your assertion that bone size difference can account for 8+lbs in body weight variance of two people who are same gender, height and race.and the 2nd one doesn't prove anything about your original assertion either...we know that Asians have a different BMI scale than we do and has nothing to do with your original argument or the original post...My original assertion..BMI is a good measure for the average population and that there are few outliers in that population...and that it is not "bone size" that will account for people being categorized as overweight or obese it's fat.
1. that the cutoff of 25 is arbitrary and not supported by morbidity and morality data for all populations. The existence of separate recommendations for Asians is evidence.
2. The BMI scale itself is flawed because it assumes a relationship of height to volume (mass) of h*h while volume is a cubic relationship. Being stochastically fitted for a height of 5' even, the error is linearly increasing with deviation from that height. This is not particularly controversial from a mathematics standing.
3. As a matter of mathematical interest, if my bones alone, never mind the volume of everything else in me, account for 15% of my mass, and my friend's bones are 12% of hers, then exactly 7.6 lbs of our weight difference is just bones. Now, personally, I find it really stupid that if I gain 10 lbs I'm classified as "overweight" but she has to gain 35 lbs to be "overweight". Because my body is clearly larger in frame and muscle. That is a pretty good illustration of the arbitrary nature of BMI when applied to individuals not populations.
4. Also on that matter, the fit of BMI to body fat is considered generally good... To one standard deviation. That's 68%. OK, great. That means if the population is normally distributed 32% are outliers.
If you found the article why link in the abstract????
2nd point you responded to me saying 8lbs of bone was a bit much imo with a negative assertion that it was possible based on you and your friend and there are 2 links...1 is an abstract that doesn't prove it and neither does the 2nd.
No where did I say frame size of people was all the same...I said 8lbs of it was a bit much imo and that for those people claiming frame size keeps them in the overweight of bmi they were in denial...perhaps you have me confused with another poster.
Now onto the meat of it.
comparing 12% for your friend and 15% is flawed...apples to apples.
and perhaps you are one of those individuals who is in denial because you are almost in the overweight category????and that is causing a bias in your argument...been there done that until I wasn't in the overweight category and still wearing a size 8 shoe...and still "big boned" but a hella lot less fat.
I think accusing someone of being “in denial” about their body because you disagree with them on a point of them on a point of science is out of line and deserves an apology.
I am not disagreeing on a point of science. She disagreed and argued that she is "bigger" because of bone size...I say no way...people who think that are in denial and are more fat than they want to admit.
Point of science is this.
BMI is a good measure for the average person (at least it is currently)
12-15% of the body weight of a person is from bone no more no less.
if you are in the overweight category for BMI it's not from bones...chances are you are overfat (unless an outlier who has exceptional muscle mass) and yes I will say that there are those who are outlier.
This poster is not.
ETA: so no apology will be forthcoming from me.
Is she more fat than she wants to admit?
is she in the overweight range?
You weren't talking about people in the overweight range in the post I quoted. Merely people who suggest they are bigger due to bone size. Which the OP does. Stop moving the goalposts. You accused the OP of being in denial, which her progress picture clearly shows her not to be.
I from the start of my posting on this thread contended it was the folks in the overweight category who claimed that bmi didn't apply to them due to bone size were possibly in denial. No goal posts moved.
I did not accuse her of any such thing I asked if is was possible she was in denial about potentially being bigger than she realized vs her friend only to find out she is an outlier which moors any argument she put forth using herself to disclaim bmi being valid for the average person.
Now for this particular conversation it has no bearing on the post at hand and I am done derailing a decent topic with this foolishness.10 -
I love how much time people on this website, which is ostensibly for people who think they're overweight and want to lose weight, spend trying to rationalize that they're not really fat, or that they don't really need to lose as much weight as they think they do. but...but..but...but
We're fat. Deal with it. Put down the doughnut, lose the gut, and quit trying to find a number that satisfies you on an emotional level.
Fat people KNOW they’re fat, some of them simply lie about it to themselves.11 -
Not everyone here is fat. Most of the people in this discussion about BMI are within the healthy range.3
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Additionally, not everyone who wants to lose weight is overweight to begin with. I lost what made me overweight 2 years ago.
I'm playing with vanity weight, pure and simple.
I used to be all... oh yeah, fat people are in denial, BMI is totally on the mark ...
And then I really listened to people like tomteboda and what she was actually saying.
BMI is good for populations, but only middling for individuals and it's not just, as the statistics that lemurcat posted show, fat people in "denial" about being fat. It's sometimes people with normal BMI's who are still overfat.
Statistically, it's not, as is oft quoted, "accurate for 95%". That number is lower. That is all that anyone is arguing when it comes to saying that BMI is an accurate indicator for individual health.
I think a perfect example is @cwolfman13. He has a normal build for a fit individual who keeps in shape. 15% bodyfat, and he is overweight by BMI standards. He's not jacked. He's not in denial. He's an outlier.
Everyone on these boards seems to think that the only outliers are people who are jacked. There are other exceptions.
The variances in frame size mean that someone with a large from could conceivably be just over 25 on the BMI scale without being overfat. And the statistics that lemurcat posted prove that.
But no, keep clinging to your ideas that fat people are in denial about a metric that was never meant to be about individuals with individual variances in the first place.
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