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We're not responsible for being obese?
richardgavel
Posts: 1,001 Member
in Debate Club
http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/27/opinions/life-expectancy-corporations-opinion-sachs/index.html
Just read this article on CNN and it really infuriated me. I think the line that was the toughest to stomach was "While the obesity and opioid epidemics are sometimes written off as "bad life choices," these epidemics are largely the handiworks of an irresponsible corporate sector." More and more, we're being told that we're not responsible for our own actions, that our lives, our own destinies, are the result of the actions of others and not ourselves. You're overweight? Blame the soda/fast food vendors? Trump won the election? Blame Russia.
</rant>
Just read this article on CNN and it really infuriated me. I think the line that was the toughest to stomach was "While the obesity and opioid epidemics are sometimes written off as "bad life choices," these epidemics are largely the handiworks of an irresponsible corporate sector." More and more, we're being told that we're not responsible for our own actions, that our lives, our own destinies, are the result of the actions of others and not ourselves. You're overweight? Blame the soda/fast food vendors? Trump won the election? Blame Russia.
</rant>
63
Replies
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This is how the establishment stays established. It's not your fault.29
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The article is annoying, but I think it's important to distinguish between two separate things:
(1) Are you ultimately responsible for your choices and are there things you should and can do to help yourself make better choices? Do you have a significant degree of choice in what you do, including (of course) what you eat? Yes, and that is important for people to realize when it comes to weight loss and maintenance.
(2) Are there also societal (cultural and other) influences on how people as a group act, on average that may affect what we do? Of course this is also true. We aren't just fatter now because we got lazy and weak compared to people in the past. Put us in the same situations as them, and them as us, and you'd probably get the exact same results as you have now (and did then) -- it's not that people are different, but that circumstances do affect behavior. (This can be such things as having no option but to move more, less food availability (which is not inherently good, obviously), and different cultural norms and taught behaviors.) To compare something like addiction (which the CNN piece did, I'm not convinced that's a great comparison here), clearly people ARE responsible for their own behaviors, but that doesn't change the fact that cultural norms and attitudes and availability and family background WILL make a statistical difference in behavior on average. We can acknowledge this and think about whether there is anything that can be done to tilt outcomes in a better direction without absolving people of responsibility. In fact, understanding what the influences are can be very helpful.62 -
yup blame the corporation they personally fed me all the crap I liked to eat back then. it's there fault I got type 2 diabetes too. i'm sick of hearing people put the blame on others when it's are own fault. I own up to it. I ate like a pig back then. now not so much.30
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"A recent expose in the New Yorker and lawsuits filed against Purdue Pharma, the maker of OxyContin, allege that the company pursued a marketing campaign that pushed OxyContin onto doctors. According to the article, Purdue allegedly did not adequately study the risks of OxyContin, paid off doctors to ignore them and pushed aggressive advertising despite growing concerns and evidence of an addiction crisis." --- So basically tobacco industry tactics, in which the "experts" say the product isn't really dangerous, all in the never ending fight for profits.21
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I feel like this idea of blame is wasted time and brainpower in most cases. The important question isn't whose fault is this, it's what can I do about it. Don't get distracted with the blame game, focus on what you can do to make things better in your item life and maybe beyond.53
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lemurcat12 wrote: »The article is annoying, but I think it's important to distinguish between two separate things:
(1) Are you ultimately responsible for your choices and are there things you should and can do to help yourself make better choices? Do you have a significant degree of choice in what you do, including (of course) what you eat? Yes, and that is important for people to realize when it comes to weight loss and maintenance.
(2) Are there also societal (cultural and other) influences on how people as a group act, on average that may affect what we do? Of course this is also true. We aren't just fatter now because we got lazy and weak compared to people in the past. Put us in the same situations as them, and them as us, and you'd probably get the exact same results as you have now (and did then) -- it's not that people are different, but that circumstances do affect behavior. (This can be such things as having no option but to move more, less food availability (which is not inherently good, obviously), and different cultural norms and taught behaviors.) To compare something like addiction (which the CNN piece did, I'm not convinced that's a great comparison here), clearly people ARE responsible for their own behaviors, but that doesn't change the fact that cultural norms and attitudes and availability and family background WILL make a statistical difference in behavior on average. We can acknowledge this and think about whether there is anything that can be done to tilt outcomes in a better direction without absolving people of responsibility. In fact, understanding what the influences are can be very helpful.
I'm of the opinion that trying to identify and understand the influences on my behavior can help me exercise more responsibility.
Trying to make all the "right decisions" without accounting for and understanding your environment is like trying to swim upstream.
A recent example comes to mind: my husband and I watched a news show last year that discussed the trend of over-prescription of strong, potentially addictive painkillers in emergency room settings for patients with things like broken bones who probably didn't need that level of pain management and how it was potentially driving new addictions. A few months later, my husband broke his wrist in a fall. In the emergency room, they gave him a prescription for the exact type of painkiller mentioned in the story. Based on the news story combined with the level of pain that he was feeling, he decided not to fill the prescription. Knowing the overall trend allowed him to make a better decision. I don't doubt his personal responsibility and will power for a minute, but knowing there are all sorts of people struggling with addiction problems with the US I'm glad we were aware and could avoid unnecessarily bringing a highly addictive substance into our lives (we both come from families with histories of addiction).42 -
Again, two separate questions:
I am fat (or addicted), what can I do about it? Focusing on societal influences is probably not that helpful, focusing on what you can do (and understanding that YOU CAN fix the problem) is.
The obesity rate is terrible or there are lots of people in certain parts of the country addicted to opiates (or even we don't have enough high school graduates who go on to study science, math, engineering, and technology). Is there something we can do about this?
Acknowledging societal and cultural influences is not new.15 -
People used to smoke constantly, in the house, the car, buildings, etc. Decades later we realize the effect.
Sugary foods/drinks/fast food became hugely popular and massed produced over a few decades and now we're realizing the effects.
Pain medications became more and more prescribed and now we are realizing the effects.
Antibiotics became prescribed as a general rule more and more, and now we are realizing the effects.
I mean, come on. We didn't, as a society, get fat all of a sudden. There is waaaaay more to it than just "bad life choices". That being said. Now that we are realizing the effects of the boom of all these things since the industrial revolution, we can gain more knowledge and be mindful of them. None of these "crisis" happened over night. I don't think blame is an answer to anything here. I don't know what the answer is though. It's not like we can just go back to before these mega corporations have influenced literally every move we make.33 -
Blame the rich corporation, sue the rich insurance company. People have fallen into the mindset that they are owed something and life is about winning the lotto at others expense. They never feel accountable for their own actions. It can also never be explained that they could be unlucky and have an accident. No, it's somebody else's fault and they are going to pay for it. I hate this mentality but the joke is on them. I (and others) raise my prices to pay for the $20,000.00 of insurance I carry and that doesn't even include my personal insurance. In the end we all pay for it and the attorney gets half of every settlement.13
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JerSchmare wrote: »^^^kinda made some huge leaps there from smoking to sugary food to drugs to antibiotics. Not sure how all that fits together.
Societal influences is the point.11 -
Societal influences and effects that aren't realized till later.7
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There is a way in which a corporation can be considered responsible for the opioid crisis. That company is Perdue Pharmaceutical, the creator of OxyContin. It isn't that creating OxyContin is the problem. Rather, it is that Perdue lobbied, advocated, and convinced doctors that pain was a vital sign. Pain is the only symptom which doctors cannot measure, and must be reported by the patient. That means anyone who wants OxyContin or narcotics can claim pain and satisfy many doctors to give them a prescription for pain. That is why the FDA can identify pharmacies in low-population areas with records of filling many millions of doses of narcotics. The pharmacy is legal. The prescriptions are legal. The doctors are within the law. The whole mess arises from the lobbying efforts of Perdue decades ago when they had a new product to sell and needed to redefine vital signs to sell their pain relieving product.
However, my exposure to drug addiction in my life has nothing to do with Oxy and Perdue. My mother became addicted to pain medications from an injury in 1939. She told me stories of a neighboring farm wife who was addicted to opioids easily accessible in veterinary medications purchased at the neighborhood feed store. My father was raised during the Prohibition years and they both told me stories of moonshiners and liquor merchants providing product under the nose of Jess Sweeten. You can see Jess's Wikipedia page. He remains a legendarily tenacious pursuer of criminals. However, the family stories I heard had him as the buffoon who couldn't find stuff.
Just this week here on mfp I've seen one recommend to another that a restricted drug be found in a feed store among the veterinary products. The point of this paragraph is that individuals are and have always been responsible for their own behavior far more than corporations and governments are.15 -
janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »The article is annoying, but I think it's important to distinguish between two separate things:
(1) Are you ultimately responsible for your choices and are there things you should and can do to help yourself make better choices? Do you have a significant degree of choice in what you do, including (of course) what you eat? Yes, and that is important for people to realize when it comes to weight loss and maintenance.
(2) Are there also societal (cultural and other) influences on how people as a group act, on average that may affect what we do? Of course this is also true. We aren't just fatter now because we got lazy and weak compared to people in the past. Put us in the same situations as them, and them as us, and you'd probably get the exact same results as you have now (and did then) -- it's not that people are different, but that circumstances do affect behavior. (This can be such things as having no option but to move more, less food availability (which is not inherently good, obviously), and different cultural norms and taught behaviors.) To compare something like addiction (which the CNN piece did, I'm not convinced that's a great comparison here), clearly people ARE responsible for their own behaviors, but that doesn't change the fact that cultural norms and attitudes and availability and family background WILL make a statistical difference in behavior on average. We can acknowledge this and think about whether there is anything that can be done to tilt outcomes in a better direction without absolving people of responsibility. In fact, understanding what the influences are can be very helpful.
I'm of the opinion that trying to identify and understand the influences on my behavior can help me exercise more responsibility.
Trying to make all the "right decisions" without accounting for and understanding your environment is like trying to swim upstream.
A recent example comes to mind: my husband and I watched a news show last year that discussed the trend of over-prescription of strong, potentially addictive painkillers in emergency room settings for patients with things like broken bones who probably didn't need that level of pain management and how it was potentially driving new addictions. A few months later, my husband broke his wrist in a fall. In the emergency room, they gave him a prescription for the exact type of painkiller mentioned in the story. Based on the news story combined with the level of pain that he was feeling, he decided not to fill the prescription. Knowing the overall trend allowed him to make a better decision. I don't doubt his personal responsibility and will power for a minute, but knowing there are all sorts of people struggling with addiction problems with the US I'm glad we were aware and could avoid unnecessarily bringing a highly addictive substance into our lives (we both come from families with histories of addiction).
Yeah, great example.1 -
Here's another example: I'm aware that people driving everywhere and not getting as much activity over the course of the day is one driver of the overall population increase in bodyweight. Thus, when I decided to lose weight, one of the first things I did was decide that I would walk absolutely everywhere that was possible, changed my commute to the L (which is more pleasant than the bus anyway), even though it meant walking over half a mile to the stop, and biking to work or running one way as much as possible. When I am not otherwise walking much on a day I might get off the L early and walk an extra mile or 2. I don't worry about looking dumb and pace across the platform if I have a long wait for the next train.
Knowing that there are societal changes that related to weight gain doesn't mean I am claiming I am powerless.10 -
janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »The article is annoying, but I think it's important to distinguish between two separate things:
(1) Are you ultimately responsible for your choices and are there things you should and can do to help yourself make better choices? Do you have a significant degree of choice in what you do, including (of course) what you eat? Yes, and that is important for people to realize when it comes to weight loss and maintenance.
(2) Are there also societal (cultural and other) influences on how people as a group act, on average that may affect what we do? Of course this is also true. We aren't just fatter now because we got lazy and weak compared to people in the past. Put us in the same situations as them, and them as us, and you'd probably get the exact same results as you have now (and did then) -- it's not that people are different, but that circumstances do affect behavior. (This can be such things as having no option but to move more, less food availability (which is not inherently good, obviously), and different cultural norms and taught behaviors.) To compare something like addiction (which the CNN piece did, I'm not convinced that's a great comparison here), clearly people ARE responsible for their own behaviors, but that doesn't change the fact that cultural norms and attitudes and availability and family background WILL make a statistical difference in behavior on average. We can acknowledge this and think about whether there is anything that can be done to tilt outcomes in a better direction without absolving people of responsibility. In fact, understanding what the influences are can be very helpful.
I'm of the opinion that trying to identify and understand the influences on my behavior can help me exercise more responsibility.
Trying to make all the "right decisions" without accounting for and understanding your environment is like trying to swim upstream.
A recent example comes to mind: my husband and I watched a news show last year that discussed the trend of over-prescription of strong, potentially addictive painkillers in emergency room settings for patients with things like broken bones who probably didn't need that level of pain management and how it was potentially driving new addictions. A few months later, my husband broke his wrist in a fall. In the emergency room, they gave him a prescription for the exact type of painkiller mentioned in the story. Based on the news story combined with the level of pain that he was feeling, he decided not to fill the prescription. Knowing the overall trend allowed him to make a better decision. I don't doubt his personal responsibility and will power for a minute, but knowing there are all sorts of people struggling with addiction problems with the US I'm glad we were aware and could avoid unnecessarily bringing a highly addictive substance into our lives (we both come from families with histories of addiction).
That's a great take on the subject.3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »The article is annoying, but I think it's important to distinguish between two separate things:
(1) Are you ultimately responsible for your choices and are there things you should and can do to help yourself make better choices? Do you have a significant degree of choice in what you do, including (of course) what you eat? Yes, and that is important for people to realize when it comes to weight loss and maintenance.
(2) Are there also societal (cultural and other) influences on how people as a group act, on average that may affect what we do? Of course this is also true. We aren't just fatter now because we got lazy and weak compared to people in the past. Put us in the same situations as them, and them as us, and you'd probably get the exact same results as you have now (and did then) -- it's not that people are different, but that circumstances do affect behavior. (This can be such things as having no option but to move more, less food availability (which is not inherently good, obviously), and different cultural norms and taught behaviors.) To compare something like addiction (which the CNN piece did, I'm not convinced that's a great comparison here), clearly people ARE responsible for their own behaviors, but that doesn't change the fact that cultural norms and attitudes and availability and family background WILL make a statistical difference in behavior on average. We can acknowledge this and think about whether there is anything that can be done to tilt outcomes in a better direction without absolving people of responsibility. In fact, understanding what the influences are can be very helpful.
I would have filled the prescription, and if I didn't need it immediately, put it away in my backpack. If anything ever happens when I'm ten miles from the nearest road...5 -
JerSchmare wrote: »^^^kinda made some huge leaps there from smoking to sugary food to drugs to antibiotics. Not sure how all that fits together.
The underlying victim mentality. Which is more pervasive in today's society than any other addiction/epidemic.15 -
Why does it matter who other people blame for their troubles? People who are ready to take responsibility will.11
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