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"Natural foods" vs "others"
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nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »100_PROOF_ wrote: »I found the secret to a zesty Mac and cheese, from a careful reading of the commercial ingredient list. I add dry mustard powder or curry. For that attractive orange colour, a little paprika.
My kids loved cream cheese with beet juice as color. It came out a pinkish red color and it was fun for them.
My poor kids getting hypnotized and drawn in by the fun color of beets. What a terrible mom I was. Lol
No you weren't, because you chose a natural method to add that color.
So if she had chosen red food dye, she would have been a terrible mother?
Maybe not 'terrible' but definitely a 'not-so-good' mom
Rethinking the fancy princess cake my mom made for my 6th birthday, the one with colored icing. I was so thrilled at the time. I loved princesses and it was my dream cake. Little did I know she was, at best, expressing her indifference to my wellbeing, if not outright hostility to it.
Does Hallmark make Mother's Day cards for the "not-so-good" moms? I need to let her know I'm finally on to her.
Oh ffs. Why do we have to turn to strawmen everywhere??
No, making your kid a birthday cake with pink icing doesn't make you a bad mother. Yes, dyeing the cream cheese with it every day because they won't eat it otherwise, along with feeding them Fruit Loops for breakfast, happy meals for lunch, doritos and pop for a snack and Kraft mac for dinner, day in and day out, makes you a mother who is not making good choices for her child's diet.
And before you say I'm exaggerating and no one actually feeds their kids like this, you'd be surprised. I'm in several online mom groups and it's quite eye opening to see how many actually don't see anything wrong with eating like that all day, every day. There are families out there whose kids don't know what a fresh veggie looks like. It's really sad.
Yes we all get busy. We all have parties and treats. that is NOT what I'm talking about. It is if you have the opinion, like stated by several on this thread, that there is NO difference between highly refined, additive laden foods and 'real' foods, whether you call them natural or whatever, that it becomes a problem. Because if there is truly no difference, why would eat them in moderation? What does it matter? Why wouldn't eat like that everyday?? If there is no difference between a homemade burger from grass-fed organic beef and a McDonald's patty? Between organic free-range chicken from a local farm and frozen nuggets? Between strawberries on your cake and artificial strawberry icing? If there is truly no benefit in one over the other, as some here say, let's just feed our kids that all the time, why not?
The comments here about moderation only serve to prove the point that people on here who are educated about food realize that these are not equally good food choices, hence the need to moderate their intake. And are being facetious in arguing otherwise.
Your assumptions about why people moderate their food choices just reinforce that you've got this all or nothing, black and white, good vs bad philosophy underscoring every comment you make about food.
People don't only moderate the "bad foods". You moderate ALL foods, that's the whole point of "All Things In Moderation, Including Moderation". You seem to be coming at it from the assumption that a person really wants to eat unlimited junk food and that the only way they can justify eating any junk food is to call it "moderation" but that all of those people are really hoping that they can somehow manage to take a pill to achieve nutritional goals, another pill to manage their weight, and then it's free reign to eat whatever they want which in your mind, is weirdly: Cheetohs, McDonalds, Kraft Easy Mac and Fake Strawberry Icing, if I remember the examples you've brought up in this thread.
Most people I know in real life (since you seem to be a fan of playing that game) want to eat a variety of foods. They like grilling out in the summer time with grass fed beef, maybe some roasted potatoes and asparagus, fresh strawberries (although I'm allergic, so for me, fresh strawberries are definitely bad) AND can appreciate a side of Velveeta Shells and Cheese thrown in the mix. That's what moderation is, you aren't checking the box on the healthy foods just so you can justify eating the Shells and Cheese or an Oreo McFlurry after dinner. You are building a comprehensive diet that includes ALL the foods, the healthy ones AND the less nutrient dense ones, in moderation.
If nutrition and calories were not a factor - would you eat nothing but "junk food"? Why do you assume that anyone wants to build a diet entirely around these types of food then?
We're talking about two different things here.
You are talking about choices and diet.
I am talking about knowledge and comparing foods - simply on their own, in isolation, regardless if you eat them once a year or every day.
And yes, I believe there are gradations of good, not-so-good, and bad (hence the term 'junk' btw, ever wonder where that came from?) foods. Does that always translate to me or others only eating the 'good' foods? Of course not. I don't always choose to eat or feed my family what I think is the best food choice. But I know that if we're eating pepperoni pizza from Pizza Hut tonight (which I can't remember the last time we did to be fair), we are not as making as healthy of a food choice as if we made homemade pizza with whole wheat crust and fresh toppings instead. I know that that my kid is going to a party and will eat neon-blue Costco cupcakes there, and that's fine, but if I am going to be making cupcakes for them and I have the time, I will make them from scratch, with no food dye and very little sugar, and believe me all the parents I know really appreciate it and most try to do the same on their end as well. (but if my kid really wanted blue cupcakes for his birthday, they would get them of course. If they wanted them every weekend, they wouldn't).
Another example: I have a friend who is hard-core into cooking and making everything herself. She raises chickens, she grows her own organic veggies. She has stopped buying prepared bread and even pasta for her family and makes it all herself ((with eggs from her chickens of course and specially-ordered whole-grain flours and sourdough cultures etc) and believes her homemade food is much healthier and better quality than storebought - and I agree. I am way too lazy to do all that, I will admit, and I despise gardening and outdoor work so I will probably never go to the extent of growing my own food - but for those who can, it is most certainly a superior choice than picking up conventional produce at Safeway. And I'm not afraid to admit that this friend is feeding her family better than I feed my own.
In my view, even natural foods come in degrees of quality - growing your own is better than buying, buying from a local farm is better than pre-packaged from a supermarket, cooking yourself is better than premade or frozen meals, pre-made meals that only use natural ingredients such as Amy's are better than those that are laden with other additives, etc etc.
At any point I can make an inferior food choice for convenience, pleasure or other reasons, but that does not discredit the fact that it is in fact inferior.
I'm not sure there is that much of a difference between the pepperoni you'd use to top a pizza at home and the pepperoni Pizza Hut is using. It seems like you're stressing yourself about things that are creating little, if any, real difference for your children
I wouldn't use pepperoni if we were making at it home, we would use grilled chicken breast and plenty of fresh veggies and homemade sauce.
If you honestly believe there is no difference between a homemade food made with quality ingredients over fast food made with the cheapest highly processed ingredients and flavor additives....well, I won't bother.
This thread is kind of surreal. Like an alternate reality, or arguing with a bunch of five year olds.
In real life, I see almost everyone moving towards natural and scratch-made and away from artificial and highly processed more and more, leaving it only for rare occasions; like I said I just assumed that was a common sense thing. Guess much of this country is still behind.
So you'd use different toppings, creating a difference in macronutrients. Pizza Hut offers chicken and vegetables as toppings, right?
To say there is a difference in the toppings . . . that's because you literally chose different toppings. You were free to choose chicken and vegetables for your pizza. You choose differently. To say that this somehow makes Pizza Hut inferior to your homemade pizza doesn't make sense.
They're different due to the specific choices you made. If you'd chosen vegetables from Pizza Hut they wouldn't be inferior to the vegetables you'd use at home, would they? I find it surreal that you're blaming Pizza Hut for including the processed ingredients that . . . you requested.
Actually yes, they probably would be, if I were using good quality organic veggies, even better seasonal and local.
As for the chicken, this is what's in Pizza Hut's chicken:
Chicken, Water, Modified Tapioca Starch, Garlic Powder, Onion Powder, Dextrose, Salt, Flavour, Spice, Sodium Phosphate, Spice Extractives,Tricalcium Phosphate.
As opposed to chicken, sea salt, fresh garlic and herbs.
Plus the chicken itself is very likely the cheapest and hence of low quality. As opposed to a free-range organic chicken.
This is one of their sauces:
Dried Butter (Cream, Salt), Palm Oil, Maltodextrin, Nonfat Milk, Salt, Food Starch-Modified, Natural Flavors, Sodium Caseinate, Dried Garlic, Soy Lecithin, Monoglycerides, Dipotassium Phosphate, Artificial Color, Xanthan Gum, Dried Parsley, Citric Acid, Bha (To Help Protect Flavor),Yellow 5, Yellow 6, And Less Than 2 Percent Silicon Dioxide (Anti-Caking Agent) -Contains Milk, Soy.
Why would someone want all this on their pizza, I'm honestly not sure.
You can argue all these things don't matter and there is no difference, go ahead. Sorry, I will not be convinced otherwise.
Trying to convince an orthorexic that such things don't matter and there is no difference would be akin to trying to convince an anorexic that they're too skinny. Or trying to convince a person with paranoia that there really aren't people out to get them.
Okay, clearly I'm orthorexic then
Along with my spouse, parents, in-laws, siblings, and pretty much every other person in our friend circle and all other moms I personally know who all share the same views (in fact many of them are much stricter and consider me overly relaxed in some of these things 
)
Gotcha. Thank you for opening my eyes. Whatever would we all do without diagnoses by self-proclaimed Internet psychiatrists?21 -
nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
Why do you think someone who is okay with their children sometimes having frosting is going to never going to buy strawberries? Why can't a family have roasted chicken some days and chicken nuggets on others? Why can you only envision an all-or-nothing situation?
If you think opening the door to some days with frosting and chicken nuggets means people would eat nothing else, I hate to break it to you -- you don't really like strawberries and roasted chicken. You're just clinging to them out of fear.
You missed my point. I never said that "someone who is okay with their children sometimes having frosting is going to never going to buy strawberries". What I said is that it's silly for an informed person to argue that there is no difference between fresh strawberries and icing, and that one is not superior to the other simply because it's natural - that was the premise of the original post.
Most parents I know, myself included, will be fine with giving kids access to a huge bowl of fresh fruit, berries, veggies etc to snack on as much as they want (barring medical issues or allergies); but most would not do the same with a can of frosting. If one is no worse than the other, than why not?
No one, literally no one in this thread, including in the OP, said there was no difference between fresh strawberries and icing. People did say that so called "natural foods" are not inherently superior though, but again, making that general statement, is not the same as saying there is NO DIFFERENCE between fresh strawberries and canned icing.
Do you really think that is what people are saying?
It's good to know though that this entire time you've been arguing against a point in the Original Post which, I'm not sure if you realized, was a very distilled summary of a conversation that OP had with an unnamed person, and quite possibly, was not an exact accounting of the actual words that were exchanged... and probably not even completely reflective of the OP's actual opinion on food quality and nutrition. It was a conversation starter- not a definitive set in stone proclamation.
You seem to be arguing with the rest of us based on this misunderstanding and suggesting that any of us that are saying that there's nothing wrong with eating Oreos in moderation, or occasionally feeding kids chicken nuggets on busy nights are saying that all foods are completely equivalent in nutritional profile, which is just plain silly.
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janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I think natural or whole foods tend to be healthier than "other food", which I would consider to be refined an highly processed with additives to make the food more shelf stable or appealing (to look at and then eat).
I don't think some "other foods" are horrible for many people to eat. a few doritos won't hurt most people but a few cigarettes don't hurt most people either... but you are probably better off skipping both.
IMO, natural or whole foods are usually better for health than "other foods", so I try to make that the majority of my diet.
For weight management I think it matters less unless you are someone who's weight is affected by poor health that is affected or caused by "other foods".
Are we really better off skipping a few corn chips? I mean, how is this quantified?
If this is your general impression, that's one thing. But as a factual statement, I'm scratching my head to see what this is based on.
I doubt it is quantifiable.
... Actually I doubt that a few cigarettes would have a quantifiable effect either.
But I did say it as part of my opinion. I think Doritos are not a great food choice. A few may not hurt anyone but more may, IMO.
We actually can track changes in the body that are tied to smoking a cigarette, even just one (heart rate, blood pressure, platelet changes, etc). If one doesn't smoke more cigarettes, the body returns to normal. Even then, people who smoke lightly but regularly still have an increased death rate as opposed to those who don't smoke.
Given that we don't have any evidence of a specific impact corn chips have on the body or an increased death rate due to light corn chip consumption, I don't think it's a fair comparison.
I don't know exactly what it means to say something isn't a great food choice without any additional information about how many are being consumed or the overall context of the diet. What does it mean for something not to be a great food choice?
A not great food choice is something that should not be eaten in large amounts or frequently. Usually a food that offers calories and taste but very little else, IMO.3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I think natural or whole foods tend to be healthier than "other food", which I would consider to be refined an highly processed with additives to make the food more shelf stable or appealing (to look at and then eat).
I don't think some "other foods" are horrible for many people to eat. a few doritos won't hurt most people but a few cigarettes don't hurt most people either... but you are probably better off skipping both.
IMO, natural or whole foods are usually better for health than "other foods", so I try to make that the majority of my diet.
For weight management I think it matters less unless you are someone who's weight is affected by poor health that is affected or caused by "other foods".
Are we really better off skipping a few corn chips? I mean, how is this quantified?
If this is your general impression, that's one thing. But as a factual statement, I'm scratching my head to see what this is based on.
I doubt it is quantifiable.
... Actually I doubt that a few cigarettes would have a quantifiable effect either.
But I did say it as part of my opinion. I think Doritos are not a great food choice. A few may not hurt anyone but more may, IMO.
We actually can track changes in the body that are tied to smoking a cigarette, even just one (heart rate, blood pressure, platelet changes, etc). If one doesn't smoke more cigarettes, the body returns to normal. Even then, people who smoke lightly but regularly still have an increased death rate as opposed to those who don't smoke.
Given that we don't have any evidence of a specific impact corn chips have on the body or an increased death rate due to light corn chip consumption, I don't think it's a fair comparison.
I don't know exactly what it means to say something isn't a great food choice without any additional information about how many are being consumed or the overall context of the diet. What does it mean for something not to be a great food choice?
A not great food choice is something that should not be eaten in large amounts or frequently. Usually a food that offers calories and taste but very little else, IMO.
Like coconut oil or heavy whipping cream?27 -
nettiklive wrote: »I despise gardening and outdoor work so I will probably never go to the extent of growing my own food - but for those who can, it is most certainly a superior choice than picking up conventional produce at Safeway.
I do do some of that. I enjoy gardening and have grown my own food to the extent possible (I only had a roofdeck until this year), and am really excited about having a real backyard garden this year. I love green markets and so tended to buy fruit there, and during the season I get the rest of my vegetables from a farm share (the farm happens to be organic, although I don't personally care about that). As mentioned in my earlier post, I used to make pasta, although I currently don't very often. I like making bread but rarely eat it, so tend not to anymore.
Despite this, I think it would be absurd to claim that home gardened vegetables are somehow meaningfully different, nutritionally, from storebought, or that during the winter one can't get nutrition (you seemed excited about trucked in from far away produce in an earlier post, but although I eat that stuff too, in the winter, I realize it is actually nutritionally inferior to local OR frozen, because it has to be picked early and eaten longer after being picked, while frozen is frozen immediately and picked ripe).
I also cannot see any reason why homemade pasta would be different from dried -- and re all the scary (not) preservatives, dried pasta doesn't even have any normally.
There's a social cachet in some circles to all the homemade, local, small producer, organic, no additives, artisanal, blah-de-blah stuff, and I also get that it often tastes better (to some palates, including mine) and is just somehow more appealing -- although I don't think that's necessarily any more logical than a kid thinking blue makes something more fun to eat. That's why I think some of this is pure elitism of a sort. And NOT truly health-based at all. Tying "being healthy" to having the means or time or inclination to be so purist is, I think, a really unfortunate thing, as it basically tells a lot of people who do make good decisions that what they do isn't good enough (including getting some frozen vegetables or canned tomatoes and beans and dried pasta and premade bread and conventional chicken at the local grocery).
And like I said, I am somewhat sensitive to this because such inclinations/biases are something I can laugh at in myself to some degree (and in my general social circle -- the Portlandia skit about the couple ordering at the restaurant with the local farm information rang really true for my particular neighborhood, for example, although I am in Chicago, not Portland).13 -
nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
Why do you think someone who is okay with their children sometimes having frosting is going to never going to buy strawberries? Why can't a family have roasted chicken some days and chicken nuggets on others? Why can you only envision an all-or-nothing situation?
If you think opening the door to some days with frosting and chicken nuggets means people would eat nothing else, I hate to break it to you -- you don't really like strawberries and roasted chicken. You're just clinging to them out of fear.
You missed my point. I never said that "someone who is okay with their children sometimes having frosting is going to never going to buy strawberries". What I said is that it's silly for an informed person to argue that there is no difference between fresh strawberries and icing, and that one is not superior to the other simply because it's natural - that was the premise of the original post.
Most parents I know, myself included, will be fine with giving kids access to a huge bowl of fresh fruit, berries, veggies etc to snack on as much as they want (barring medical issues or allergies); but most would not do the same with a can of frosting. If one is no worse than the other, than why not?
There is a difference between icing and strawberries.
The same difference exists between frozen strawberries and homemade (or good bakery made) icing.
Someone I know had a 10th anniversary party with an AMAZING cake from a high quality bakery and it struck me that although I normally don't really like cake that much this one was great, and it was mainly because the frosting was so good (I usually hate frosting). It was high quality buttercream, typical homemade frosting in many cases too.
Was that frosting BETTER than the frozen strawberries, since one was preserved and one was basically homemade?
Or -- as I think -- is the real difference between frosting and strawberries about nutritional content and NOT how natural either is?7 -
WinoGelato wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
Why do you think someone who is okay with their children sometimes having frosting is going to never going to buy strawberries? Why can't a family have roasted chicken some days and chicken nuggets on others? Why can you only envision an all-or-nothing situation?
If you think opening the door to some days with frosting and chicken nuggets means people would eat nothing else, I hate to break it to you -- you don't really like strawberries and roasted chicken. You're just clinging to them out of fear.
You missed my point. I never said that "someone who is okay with their children sometimes having frosting is going to never going to buy strawberries". What I said is that it's silly for an informed person to argue that there is no difference between fresh strawberries and icing, and that one is not superior to the other simply because it's natural - that was the premise of the original post.
Most parents I know, myself included, will be fine with giving kids access to a huge bowl of fresh fruit, berries, veggies etc to snack on as much as they want (barring medical issues or allergies); but most would not do the same with a can of frosting. If one is no worse than the other, than why not?
No one, literally no one in this thread, including in the OP, said there was no difference between fresh strawberries and icing. People did say that so called "natural foods" are not inherently superior though, but again, making that general statement, is not the same as saying there is NO DIFFERENCE between fresh strawberries and canned icing.
Do you really think that is what people are saying?
It's good to know though that this entire time you've been arguing against a point in the Original Post which, I'm not sure if you realized, was a very distilled summary of a conversation that OP had with an unnamed person, and quite possibly, was not an exact accounting of the actual words that were exchanged... and probably not even completely reflective of the OP's actual opinion on food quality and nutrition. It was a conversation starter- not a definitive set in stone proclamation.
You seem to be arguing with the rest of us based on this misunderstanding and suggesting that any of us that are saying that there's nothing wrong with eating Oreos in moderation, or occasionally feeding kids chicken nuggets on busy nights are saying that all foods are completely equivalent in nutritional profile, which is just plain silly.
I don't know what the op was or wasn't trying to say, I can't read minds, only.what was written here. The way I read it, he and several others were implying that there are absolutely no benefits in choosing foods free of artificial additives over those that have them. Regardless of other diet context, I believe foods CAN be compared simply on their own. And no one will convince me that foods containing artificial additives are just as healthy as choice as an alternative without them (let's focus on this for this argument's sake and leave alone other considerations such as processing, organic etc).
People here are arguing that no food is inherently worse or better than another, it's only about context, and I disagree. Again, I can go back to my glass of wine. Can I have it as part of an.overall healthy diet? Of course. Does it mean there is nothing harmful or unhealthy about alcohol? No. I may have it as part of a healthy diet but I know that is very likely NOT doing favors for my health - at best, it is simply not causing any effects; at worst, it is doing damage somewhere at the cellular level even though I do not feel any I'll effects at the moment. It is a risk I am taking, knowing the cons and making an informed decision and practicing moderation. I don't have the same need to moderate, say, my intake of water or herbal tea because, aside from rare water intoxication in insane amounts, an extra cup doesn't have the potential for harm in the same way as wine.
I dont know how else to explain it. You can sprinkle your food with the tiniest bit of laundry detergent every day. Maybe it gives it a cool funky flavor that you enjoy. Likely if the amount is small enough, you won't feel any ill effects from it at the beginning. Maybe for days. Maybe for years. Maybe you can keep eating it all your life and live long and healthy and it will never affect you. And maybe it will build up and kill you in a matter of months or decades. I dont know. I haven't tried. But it somehow just makes sense that since it is not a food substance, it's better not to take that risk and find out.
And if some corporation now decides to create new and cool edible Tide pods claiming they can do your laundry AND double as a snack, I'm not going to run out and start buying them as part of the kids snack rotation. Again simply because it just seems like the logical thing to me. Apparently I'm in the minority on here. Oh well.29 -
nettiklive wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
Why do you think someone who is okay with their children sometimes having frosting is going to never going to buy strawberries? Why can't a family have roasted chicken some days and chicken nuggets on others? Why can you only envision an all-or-nothing situation?
If you think opening the door to some days with frosting and chicken nuggets means people would eat nothing else, I hate to break it to you -- you don't really like strawberries and roasted chicken. You're just clinging to them out of fear.
You missed my point. I never said that "someone who is okay with their children sometimes having frosting is going to never going to buy strawberries". What I said is that it's silly for an informed person to argue that there is no difference between fresh strawberries and icing, and that one is not superior to the other simply because it's natural - that was the premise of the original post.
Most parents I know, myself included, will be fine with giving kids access to a huge bowl of fresh fruit, berries, veggies etc to snack on as much as they want (barring medical issues or allergies); but most would not do the same with a can of frosting. If one is no worse than the other, than why not?
No one, literally no one in this thread, including in the OP, said there was no difference between fresh strawberries and icing. People did say that so called "natural foods" are not inherently superior though, but again, making that general statement, is not the same as saying there is NO DIFFERENCE between fresh strawberries and canned icing.
Do you really think that is what people are saying?
It's good to know though that this entire time you've been arguing against a point in the Original Post which, I'm not sure if you realized, was a very distilled summary of a conversation that OP had with an unnamed person, and quite possibly, was not an exact accounting of the actual words that were exchanged... and probably not even completely reflective of the OP's actual opinion on food quality and nutrition. It was a conversation starter- not a definitive set in stone proclamation.
You seem to be arguing with the rest of us based on this misunderstanding and suggesting that any of us that are saying that there's nothing wrong with eating Oreos in moderation, or occasionally feeding kids chicken nuggets on busy nights are saying that all foods are completely equivalent in nutritional profile, which is just plain silly.
I don't know what the op was or wasn't trying to say, I can't read minds, only.what was written here. The way I read it, he and several others were implying that there are absolutely no benefits in choosing foods free of artificial additives over those that have them. Regardless of other diet context, I believe foods CAN be compared simply on their own. And no one will convince me that foods containing artificial additives are just as healthy as choice as an alternative without them (let's focus on this for this argument's sake and leave alone other considerations such as processing, organic etc).
People here are arguing that no food is inherently worse or better than another, it's only about context, and I disagree. Again, I can go back to my glass of wine. Can I have it as part of an.overall healthy diet? Of course. Does it mean there is nothing harmful or unhealthy about alcohol? No. I may have it as part of a healthy diet but I know that is very likely NOT doing favors for my health - at best, it is simply not causing any effects; at worst, it is doing damage somewhere at the cellular level even though I do not feel any I'll effects at the moment. It is a risk I am taking, knowing the cons and making an informed decision and practicing moderation. I don't have the same need to moderate, say, my intake of water or herbal tea because, aside from rare water intoxication in insane amounts, an extra cup doesn't have the potential for harm in the same way as wine.
I dont know how else to explain it. You can sprinkle your food with the tiniest bit of laundry detergent every day. Maybe it gives it a cool funky flavor that you enjoy. Likely if the amount is small enough, you won't feel any ill effects from it at the beginning. Maybe for days. Maybe for years. Maybe you can keep eating it all your life and live long and healthy and it will never affect you. And maybe it will build up and kill you in a matter of months or decades. I dont know. I haven't tried. But it somehow just makes sense that since it is not a food substance, it's better not to take that risk and find out.
And if some corporation now decides to create new and cool edible Tide pods claiming they can do your laundry AND double as a snack, I'm not going to run out and start buying them as part of the kids snack rotation. Again simply because it just seems like the logical thing to me. Apparently I'm in the minority on here. Oh well.
The negative effects of alcohol are known. They're quantifiable and researchable. The same is not true of "artificial additives" -- a broad category that covers far too many foods. What are the negative effects of these additives? How much does it take before they start to effect someone? When a doctor takes a blood or tissue sample, how will they expect to see and measure these effects? What are they actually doing to my body? Which ones?
Laundry detergent is not listed as a GRAS food. It's a ridiculous comparison and you know this. If you truly believe that it's a good comparison, then I'd say that you're making the exact same argument you accuse others of making: that there's no difference between "artificial additives" and laundry detergent. But even so, there are measurable, quantifiable, observable effects that will happen if I eat laundry detergent. What are the effects of these additives? Are there different ones for different additives? How did they get through the GRAS process if there are measurable effects?
I said it upthread and I will say it again. If someone can show me what the negative effects are, then I can make an informed decision to stop or keep eating them. Just as we've all had to do with man-made transfats or carcinogenic bacon. But without that information, you're asking people to take this belief that artificial additives will have negative effects on nothing but faith.
Name the risks. Show us how they're observable and measurable. Until then, I will go off of the research that I have rather than the argument that we should avoid them just because.25 -
nettiklive wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
Why do you think someone who is okay with their children sometimes having frosting is going to never going to buy strawberries? Why can't a family have roasted chicken some days and chicken nuggets on others? Why can you only envision an all-or-nothing situation?
If you think opening the door to some days with frosting and chicken nuggets means people would eat nothing else, I hate to break it to you -- you don't really like strawberries and roasted chicken. You're just clinging to them out of fear.
You missed my point. I never said that "someone who is okay with their children sometimes having frosting is going to never going to buy strawberries". What I said is that it's silly for an informed person to argue that there is no difference between fresh strawberries and icing, and that one is not superior to the other simply because it's natural - that was the premise of the original post.
Most parents I know, myself included, will be fine with giving kids access to a huge bowl of fresh fruit, berries, veggies etc to snack on as much as they want (barring medical issues or allergies); but most would not do the same with a can of frosting. If one is no worse than the other, than why not?
No one, literally no one in this thread, including in the OP, said there was no difference between fresh strawberries and icing. People did say that so called "natural foods" are not inherently superior though, but again, making that general statement, is not the same as saying there is NO DIFFERENCE between fresh strawberries and canned icing.
Do you really think that is what people are saying?
It's good to know though that this entire time you've been arguing against a point in the Original Post which, I'm not sure if you realized, was a very distilled summary of a conversation that OP had with an unnamed person, and quite possibly, was not an exact accounting of the actual words that were exchanged... and probably not even completely reflective of the OP's actual opinion on food quality and nutrition. It was a conversation starter- not a definitive set in stone proclamation.
You seem to be arguing with the rest of us based on this misunderstanding and suggesting that any of us that are saying that there's nothing wrong with eating Oreos in moderation, or occasionally feeding kids chicken nuggets on busy nights are saying that all foods are completely equivalent in nutritional profile, which is just plain silly.
I don't know what the op was or wasn't trying to say, I can't read minds, only.what was written here. The way I read it, he and several others were implying that there are absolutely no benefits in choosing foods free of artificial additives over those that have them. Regardless of other diet context, I believe foods CAN be compared simply on their own. And no one will convince me that foods containing artificial additives are just as healthy as choice as an alternative without them (let's focus on this for this argument's sake and leave alone other considerations such as processing, organic etc).
People here are arguing that no food is inherently worse or better than another, it's only about context, and I disagree. Again, I can go back to my glass of wine. Can I have it as part of an.overall healthy diet? Of course. Does it mean there is nothing harmful or unhealthy about alcohol? No. I may have it as part of a healthy diet but I know that is very likely NOT doing favors for my health - at best, it is simply not causing any effects; at worst, it is doing damage somewhere at the cellular level even though I do not feel any I'll effects at the moment. It is a risk I am taking, knowing the cons and making an informed decision and practicing moderation. I don't have the same need to moderate, say, my intake of water or herbal tea because, aside from rare water intoxication in insane amounts, an extra cup doesn't have the potential for harm in the same way as wine.
I dont know how else to explain it. You can sprinkle your food with the tiniest bit of laundry detergent every day. Maybe it gives it a cool funky flavor that you enjoy. Likely if the amount is small enough, you won't feel any ill effects from it at the beginning. Maybe for days. Maybe for years. Maybe you can keep eating it all your life and live long and healthy and it will never affect you. And maybe it will build up and kill you in a matter of months or decades. I dont know. I haven't tried. But it somehow just makes sense that since it is not a food substance, it's better not to take that risk and find out.
And if some corporation now decides to create new and cool edible Tide pods claiming they can do your laundry AND double as a snack, I'm not going to run out and start buying them as part of the kids snack rotation. Again simply because it just seems like the logical thing to me. Apparently I'm in the minority on here. Oh well.
Don't doctors recommend an occasional glass of wine?6 -
nettiklive wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
Why do you think someone who is okay with their children sometimes having frosting is going to never going to buy strawberries? Why can't a family have roasted chicken some days and chicken nuggets on others? Why can you only envision an all-or-nothing situation?
If you think opening the door to some days with frosting and chicken nuggets means people would eat nothing else, I hate to break it to you -- you don't really like strawberries and roasted chicken. You're just clinging to them out of fear.
You missed my point. I never said that "someone who is okay with their children sometimes having frosting is going to never going to buy strawberries". What I said is that it's silly for an informed person to argue that there is no difference between fresh strawberries and icing, and that one is not superior to the other simply because it's natural - that was the premise of the original post.
Most parents I know, myself included, will be fine with giving kids access to a huge bowl of fresh fruit, berries, veggies etc to snack on as much as they want (barring medical issues or allergies); but most would not do the same with a can of frosting. If one is no worse than the other, than why not?
No one, literally no one in this thread, including in the OP, said there was no difference between fresh strawberries and icing. People did say that so called "natural foods" are not inherently superior though, but again, making that general statement, is not the same as saying there is NO DIFFERENCE between fresh strawberries and canned icing.
Do you really think that is what people are saying?
It's good to know though that this entire time you've been arguing against a point in the Original Post which, I'm not sure if you realized, was a very distilled summary of a conversation that OP had with an unnamed person, and quite possibly, was not an exact accounting of the actual words that were exchanged... and probably not even completely reflective of the OP's actual opinion on food quality and nutrition. It was a conversation starter- not a definitive set in stone proclamation.
You seem to be arguing with the rest of us based on this misunderstanding and suggesting that any of us that are saying that there's nothing wrong with eating Oreos in moderation, or occasionally feeding kids chicken nuggets on busy nights are saying that all foods are completely equivalent in nutritional profile, which is just plain silly.
I don't know what the op was or wasn't trying to say, I can't read minds, only.what was written here. The way I read it, he and several others were implying that there are absolutely no benefits in choosing foods free of artificial additives over those that have them. Regardless of other diet context, I believe foods CAN be compared simply on their own. And no one will convince me that foods containing artificial additives are just as healthy as choice as an alternative without them (let's focus on this for this argument's sake and leave alone other considerations such as processing, organic etc).
People here are arguing that no food is inherently worse or better than another, it's only about context, and I disagree. Again, I can go back to my glass of wine. Can I have it as part of an.overall healthy diet? Of course. Does it mean there is nothing harmful or unhealthy about alcohol? No. I may have it as part of a healthy diet but I know that is very likely NOT doing favors for my health - at best, it is simply not causing any effects; at worst, it is doing damage somewhere at the cellular level even though I do not feel any I'll effects at the moment. It is a risk I am taking, knowing the cons and making an informed decision and practicing moderation. I don't have the same need to moderate, say, my intake of water or herbal tea because, aside from rare water intoxication in insane amounts, an extra cup doesn't have the potential for harm in the same way as wine.
I dont know how else to explain it. You can sprinkle your food with the tiniest bit of laundry detergent every day. Maybe it gives it a cool funky flavor that you enjoy. Likely if the amount is small enough, you won't feel any ill effects from it at the beginning. Maybe for days. Maybe for years. Maybe you can keep eating it all your life and live long and healthy and it will never affect you. And maybe it will build up and kill you in a matter of months or decades. I dont know. I haven't tried. But it somehow just makes sense that since it is not a food substance, it's better not to take that risk and find out.
And if some corporation now decides to create new and cool edible Tide pods claiming they can do your laundry AND double as a snack, I'm not going to run out and start buying them as part of the kids snack rotation. Again simply because it just seems like the logical thing to me. Apparently I'm in the minority on here. Oh well.
This is literally the second time in this thread that someone has resorted to this silly reductio ad absurdum argument that deliberately putting poison in one's food is in any way equivalent to not being fearful about processed food in moderation. Considering the OP was relating his conversation with someone who was claiming anything artificial was effectively poison, it's clear that many people are getting fed a steady diet of misinformation and fearmongering that's rotting their brains from the inside out.27 -
WinoGelato wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I think natural or whole foods tend to be healthier than "other food", which I would consider to be refined an highly processed with additives to make the food more shelf stable or appealing (to look at and then eat).
I don't think some "other foods" are horrible for many people to eat. a few doritos won't hurt most people but a few cigarettes don't hurt most people either... but you are probably better off skipping both.
IMO, natural or whole foods are usually better for health than "other foods", so I try to make that the majority of my diet.
For weight management I think it matters less unless you are someone who's weight is affected by poor health that is affected or caused by "other foods".
Are we really better off skipping a few corn chips? I mean, how is this quantified?
If this is your general impression, that's one thing. But as a factual statement, I'm scratching my head to see what this is based on.
I doubt it is quantifiable.
... Actually I doubt that a few cigarettes would have a quantifiable effect either.
But I did say it as part of my opinion. I think Doritos are not a great food choice. A few may not hurt anyone but more may, IMO.
We actually can track changes in the body that are tied to smoking a cigarette, even just one (heart rate, blood pressure, platelet changes, etc). If one doesn't smoke more cigarettes, the body returns to normal. Even then, people who smoke lightly but regularly still have an increased death rate as opposed to those who don't smoke.
Given that we don't have any evidence of a specific impact corn chips have on the body or an increased death rate due to light corn chip consumption, I don't think it's a fair comparison.
I don't know exactly what it means to say something isn't a great food choice without any additional information about how many are being consumed or the overall context of the diet. What does it mean for something not to be a great food choice?
A not great food choice is something that should not be eaten in large amounts or frequently. Usually a food that offers calories and taste but very little else, IMO.
Like coconut oil or heavy whipping cream?
7 -
The crew from the International Space Station just sent a message that the virtue signaling in this thread was visible to them on their last orbit.44
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nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »100_PROOF_ wrote: »I found the secret to a zesty Mac and cheese, from a careful reading of the commercial ingredient list. I add dry mustard powder or curry. For that attractive orange colour, a little paprika.
My kids loved cream cheese with beet juice as color. It came out a pinkish red color and it was fun for them.
My poor kids getting hypnotized and drawn in by the fun color of beets. What a terrible mom I was. Lol
No you weren't, because you chose a natural method to add that color.
So if she had chosen red food dye, she would have been a terrible mother?
Maybe not 'terrible' but definitely a 'not-so-good' mom
Rethinking the fancy princess cake my mom made for my 6th birthday, the one with colored icing. I was so thrilled at the time. I loved princesses and it was my dream cake. Little did I know she was, at best, expressing her indifference to my wellbeing, if not outright hostility to it.
Does Hallmark make Mother's Day cards for the "not-so-good" moms? I need to let her know I'm finally on to her.
Oh ffs. Why do we have to turn to strawmen everywhere??
No, making your kid a birthday cake with pink icing doesn't make you a bad mother. Yes, dyeing the cream cheese with it every day because they won't eat it otherwise, along with feeding them Fruit Loops for breakfast, happy meals for lunch, doritos and pop for a snack and Kraft mac for dinner, day in and day out, makes you a mother who is not making good choices for her child's diet.
And before you say I'm exaggerating and no one actually feeds their kids like this, you'd be surprised. I'm in several online mom groups and it's quite eye opening to see how many actually don't see anything wrong with eating like that all day, every day. There are families out there whose kids don't know what a fresh veggie looks like. It's really sad.
Yes we all get busy. We all have parties and treats. that is NOT what I'm talking about. It is if you have the opinion, like stated by several on this thread, that there is NO difference between highly refined, additive laden foods and 'real' foods, whether you call them natural or whatever, that it becomes a problem. Because if there is truly no difference, why would eat them in moderation? What does it matter? Why wouldn't eat like that everyday?? If there is no difference between a homemade burger from grass-fed organic beef and a McDonald's patty? Between organic free-range chicken from a local farm and frozen nuggets? Between strawberries on your cake and artificial strawberry icing? If there is truly no benefit in one over the other, as some here say, let's just feed our kids that all the time, why not?
The comments here about moderation only serve to prove the point that people on here who are educated about food realize that these are not equally good food choices, hence the need to moderate their intake. And are being facetious in arguing otherwise.
Your assumptions about why people moderate their food choices just reinforce that you've got this all or nothing, black and white, good vs bad philosophy underscoring every comment you make about food.
People don't only moderate the "bad foods". You moderate ALL foods, that's the whole point of "All Things In Moderation, Including Moderation". You seem to be coming at it from the assumption that a person really wants to eat unlimited junk food and that the only way they can justify eating any junk food is to call it "moderation" but that all of those people are really hoping that they can somehow manage to take a pill to achieve nutritional goals, another pill to manage their weight, and then it's free reign to eat whatever they want which in your mind, is weirdly: Cheetohs, McDonalds, Kraft Easy Mac and Fake Strawberry Icing, if I remember the examples you've brought up in this thread.
Most people I know in real life (since you seem to be a fan of playing that game) want to eat a variety of foods. They like grilling out in the summer time with grass fed beef, maybe some roasted potatoes and asparagus, fresh strawberries (although I'm allergic, so for me, fresh strawberries are definitely bad) AND can appreciate a side of Velveeta Shells and Cheese thrown in the mix. That's what moderation is, you aren't checking the box on the healthy foods just so you can justify eating the Shells and Cheese or an Oreo McFlurry after dinner. You are building a comprehensive diet that includes ALL the foods, the healthy ones AND the less nutrient dense ones, in moderation.
If nutrition and calories were not a factor - would you eat nothing but "junk food"? Why do you assume that anyone wants to build a diet entirely around these types of food then?
We're talking about two different things here.
You are talking about choices and diet.
I am talking about knowledge and comparing foods - simply on their own, in isolation, regardless if you eat them once a year or every day.
And yes, I believe there are gradations of good, not-so-good, and bad (hence the term 'junk' btw, ever wonder where that came from?) foods. Does that always translate to me or others only eating the 'good' foods? Of course not. I don't always choose to eat or feed my family what I think is the best food choice. But I know that if we're eating pepperoni pizza from Pizza Hut tonight (which I can't remember the last time we did to be fair), we are not as making as healthy of a food choice as if we made homemade pizza with whole wheat crust and fresh toppings instead. I know that that my kid is going to a party and will eat neon-blue Costco cupcakes there, and that's fine, but if I am going to be making cupcakes for them and I have the time, I will make them from scratch, with no food dye and very little sugar, and believe me all the parents I know really appreciate it and most try to do the same on their end as well. (but if my kid really wanted blue cupcakes for his birthday, they would get them of course. If they wanted them every weekend, they wouldn't).
Another example: I have a friend who is hard-core into cooking and making everything herself. She raises chickens, she grows her own organic veggies. She has stopped buying prepared bread and even pasta for her family and makes it all herself ((with eggs from her chickens of course and specially-ordered whole-grain flours and sourdough cultures etc) and believes her homemade food is much healthier and better quality than storebought - and I agree. I am way too lazy to do all that, I will admit, and I despise gardening and outdoor work so I will probably never go to the extent of growing my own food - but for those who can, it is most certainly a superior choice than picking up conventional produce at Safeway. And I'm not afraid to admit that this friend is feeding her family better than I feed my own.
In my view, even natural foods come in degrees of quality - growing your own is better than buying, buying from a local farm is better than pre-packaged from a supermarket, cooking yourself is better than premade or frozen meals, pre-made meals that only use natural ingredients such as Amy's are better than those that are laden with other additives, etc etc.
At any point I can make an inferior food choice for convenience, pleasure or other reasons, but that does not discredit the fact that it is in fact inferior.
I'm not sure there is that much of a difference between the pepperoni you'd use to top a pizza at home and the pepperoni Pizza Hut is using. It seems like you're stressing yourself about things that are creating little, if any, real difference for your children
I wouldn't use pepperoni if we were making at it home, we would use grilled chicken breast and plenty of fresh veggies and homemade sauce.
If you honestly believe there is no difference between a homemade food made with quality ingredients over fast food made with the cheapest highly processed ingredients and flavor additives....well, I won't bother.
This thread is kind of surreal. Like an alternate reality, or arguing with a bunch of five year olds.
In real life, I see almost everyone moving towards natural and scratch-made and away from artificial and highly processed more and more, leaving it only for rare occasions; like I said I just assumed that was a common sense thing. Guess much of this country is still behind.
So you'd use different toppings, creating a difference in macronutrients. Pizza Hut offers chicken and vegetables as toppings, right?
To say there is a difference in the toppings . . . that's because you literally chose different toppings. You were free to choose chicken and vegetables for your pizza. You choose differently. To say that this somehow makes Pizza Hut inferior to your homemade pizza doesn't make sense.
They're different due to the specific choices you made. If you'd chosen vegetables from Pizza Hut they wouldn't be inferior to the vegetables you'd use at home, would they? I find it surreal that you're blaming Pizza Hut for including the processed ingredients that . . . you requested.
Actually yes, they probably would be, if I were using good quality organic veggies, even better seasonal and local.
As for the chicken, this is what's in Pizza Hut's chicken:
Chicken, Water, Modified Tapioca Starch, Garlic Powder, Onion Powder, Dextrose, Salt, Flavour, Spice, Sodium Phosphate, Spice Extractives,Tricalcium Phosphate.
As opposed to chicken, sea salt, fresh garlic and herbs.
Plus the chicken itself is very likely the cheapest and hence of low quality. As opposed to a free-range organic chicken.
This is one of their sauces:
Dried Butter (Cream, Salt), Palm Oil, Maltodextrin, Nonfat Milk, Salt, Food Starch-Modified, Natural Flavors, Sodium Caseinate, Dried Garlic, Soy Lecithin, Monoglycerides, Dipotassium Phosphate, Artificial Color, Xanthan Gum, Dried Parsley, Citric Acid, Bha (To Help Protect Flavor),Yellow 5, Yellow 6, And Less Than 2 Percent Silicon Dioxide (Anti-Caking Agent) -Contains Milk, Soy.
Why would someone want all this on their pizza, I'm honestly not sure.
You can argue all these things don't matter and there is no difference, go ahead. Sorry, I will not be convinced otherwise.
Science disagrees with you
https://bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/hormonal-responses-fast-food-meal.html/
12 -
nettiklive wrote: »bennettinfinity wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »100_PROOF_ wrote: »I found the secret to a zesty Mac and cheese, from a careful reading of the commercial ingredient list. I add dry mustard powder or curry. For that attractive orange colour, a little paprika.
My kids loved cream cheese with beet juice as color. It came out a pinkish red color and it was fun for them.
My poor kids getting hypnotized and drawn in by the fun color of beets. What a terrible mom I was. Lol
No you weren't, because you chose a natural method to add that color.
So if she had chosen red food dye, she would have been a terrible mother?
Maybe not 'terrible' but definitely a 'not-so-good' mom
Rethinking the fancy princess cake my mom made for my 6th birthday, the one with colored icing. I was so thrilled at the time. I loved princesses and it was my dream cake. Little did I know she was, at best, expressing her indifference to my wellbeing, if not outright hostility to it.
Does Hallmark make Mother's Day cards for the "not-so-good" moms? I need to let her know I'm finally on to her.
Oh ffs. Why do we have to turn to strawmen everywhere??
No, making your kid a birthday cake with pink icing doesn't make you a bad mother. Yes, dyeing the cream cheese with it every day because they won't eat it otherwise, along with feeding them Fruit Loops for breakfast, happy meals for lunch, doritos and pop for a snack and Kraft mac for dinner, day in and day out, makes you a mother who is not making good choices for her child's diet.
And before you say I'm exaggerating and no one actually feeds their kids like this, you'd be surprised. I'm in several online mom groups and it's quite eye opening to see how many actually don't see anything wrong with eating like that all day, every day. There are families out there whose kids don't know what a fresh veggie looks like. It's really sad.
Yes we all get busy. We all have parties and treats. that is NOT what I'm talking about. It is if you have the opinion, like stated by several on this thread, that there is NO difference between highly refined, additive laden foods and 'real' foods, whether you call them natural or whatever, that it becomes a problem. Because if there is truly no difference, why would eat them in moderation? What does it matter? Why wouldn't eat like that everyday?? If there is no difference between a homemade burger from grass-fed organic beef and a McDonald's patty? Between organic free-range chicken from a local farm and frozen nuggets? Between strawberries on your cake and artificial strawberry icing? If there is truly no benefit in one over the other, as some here say, let's just feed our kids that all the time, why not?
The comments here about moderation only serve to prove the point that people on here who are educated about food realize that these are not equally good food choices, hence the need to moderate their intake. And are being facetious in arguing otherwise.
Now I'm confused... Are you saying I don't need to moderate my intake of grass-fed organic beef? I only need to moderate if it's part of a McDonald's burger? How about if it were another fast food outlet? How about if it was grass-fed, but not organic?
How about I moderate ALL my food choices regardless of where they fall on you Good-Evil continuum, you know, because calories?
Wasn't talking about moderation for weight reasons here, only health/ nutrition as that's what we were discussing here.
I have yet to hear anyone make excuses for feeding their kids too many fresh fruit and veggies and homemade meals. 'we've been so busy all week we've only eaten at home, even baked our own cookies, better balance it out with some McDonald's and oreos!'
I've seen the effects of this at children's birthday parties. The kids who have a extremely controlled diet at home, restricted to the "all natural, everything free" foods you're mentioning are often the ones around the party food table binging on sweets (although a lot of our sweets are not artificially coloured or flavoured), cakes (from the supermarket, shock horror), crisps, chocolates etc. The children who aren't subjected to restricted diets are usually the ones who can moderate themselves and don't need to eat their bodyweight at the party.24 -
livingleanlivingclean wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »bennettinfinity wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »100_PROOF_ wrote: »I found the secret to a zesty Mac and cheese, from a careful reading of the commercial ingredient list. I add dry mustard powder or curry. For that attractive orange colour, a little paprika.
My kids loved cream cheese with beet juice as color. It came out a pinkish red color and it was fun for them.
My poor kids getting hypnotized and drawn in by the fun color of beets. What a terrible mom I was. Lol
No you weren't, because you chose a natural method to add that color.
So if she had chosen red food dye, she would have been a terrible mother?
Maybe not 'terrible' but definitely a 'not-so-good' mom
Rethinking the fancy princess cake my mom made for my 6th birthday, the one with colored icing. I was so thrilled at the time. I loved princesses and it was my dream cake. Little did I know she was, at best, expressing her indifference to my wellbeing, if not outright hostility to it.
Does Hallmark make Mother's Day cards for the "not-so-good" moms? I need to let her know I'm finally on to her.
Oh ffs. Why do we have to turn to strawmen everywhere??
No, making your kid a birthday cake with pink icing doesn't make you a bad mother. Yes, dyeing the cream cheese with it every day because they won't eat it otherwise, along with feeding them Fruit Loops for breakfast, happy meals for lunch, doritos and pop for a snack and Kraft mac for dinner, day in and day out, makes you a mother who is not making good choices for her child's diet.
And before you say I'm exaggerating and no one actually feeds their kids like this, you'd be surprised. I'm in several online mom groups and it's quite eye opening to see how many actually don't see anything wrong with eating like that all day, every day. There are families out there whose kids don't know what a fresh veggie looks like. It's really sad.
Yes we all get busy. We all have parties and treats. that is NOT what I'm talking about. It is if you have the opinion, like stated by several on this thread, that there is NO difference between highly refined, additive laden foods and 'real' foods, whether you call them natural or whatever, that it becomes a problem. Because if there is truly no difference, why would eat them in moderation? What does it matter? Why wouldn't eat like that everyday?? If there is no difference between a homemade burger from grass-fed organic beef and a McDonald's patty? Between organic free-range chicken from a local farm and frozen nuggets? Between strawberries on your cake and artificial strawberry icing? If there is truly no benefit in one over the other, as some here say, let's just feed our kids that all the time, why not?
The comments here about moderation only serve to prove the point that people on here who are educated about food realize that these are not equally good food choices, hence the need to moderate their intake. And are being facetious in arguing otherwise.
Now I'm confused... Are you saying I don't need to moderate my intake of grass-fed organic beef? I only need to moderate if it's part of a McDonald's burger? How about if it were another fast food outlet? How about if it was grass-fed, but not organic?
How about I moderate ALL my food choices regardless of where they fall on you Good-Evil continuum, you know, because calories?
Wasn't talking about moderation for weight reasons here, only health/ nutrition as that's what we were discussing here.
I have yet to hear anyone make excuses for feeding their kids too many fresh fruit and veggies and homemade meals. 'we've been so busy all week we've only eaten at home, even baked our own cookies, better balance it out with some McDonald's and oreos!'
I've seen the effects of this at children's birthday parties. The kids who have a extremely controlled diet at home, restricted to the "all natural, everything free" foods you're mentioning are often the ones around the party food table binging on sweets (although a lot of our sweets are not artificially coloured or flavoured), cakes (from the supermarket, shock horror), crisps, chocolates etc. The children who aren't subjected to restricted diets are usually the ones who can moderate themselves and don't need to eat their bodyweight at the party.
My best friend grew up in a "natural food only" type of home. When she moved out for university she basically ate only highly processed foods in excessive amounts and gained 50 lbs in first year.17 -
johnslater461 wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »100_PROOF_ wrote: »I found the secret to a zesty Mac and cheese, from a careful reading of the commercial ingredient list. I add dry mustard powder or curry. For that attractive orange colour, a little paprika.
My kids loved cream cheese with beet juice as color. It came out a pinkish red color and it was fun for them.
My poor kids getting hypnotized and drawn in by the fun color of beets. What a terrible mom I was. Lol
No you weren't, because you chose a natural method to add that color.
So if she had chosen red food dye, she would have been a terrible mother?
Maybe not 'terrible' but definitely a 'not-so-good' mom
Rethinking the fancy princess cake my mom made for my 6th birthday, the one with colored icing. I was so thrilled at the time. I loved princesses and it was my dream cake. Little did I know she was, at best, expressing her indifference to my wellbeing, if not outright hostility to it.
Does Hallmark make Mother's Day cards for the "not-so-good" moms? I need to let her know I'm finally on to her.
Oh ffs. Why do we have to turn to strawmen everywhere??
No, making your kid a birthday cake with pink icing doesn't make you a bad mother. Yes, dyeing the cream cheese with it every day because they won't eat it otherwise, along with feeding them Fruit Loops for breakfast, happy meals for lunch, doritos and pop for a snack and Kraft mac for dinner, day in and day out, makes you a mother who is not making good choices for her child's diet.
And before you say I'm exaggerating and no one actually feeds their kids like this, you'd be surprised. I'm in several online mom groups and it's quite eye opening to see how many actually don't see anything wrong with eating like that all day, every day. There are families out there whose kids don't know what a fresh veggie looks like. It's really sad.
Yes we all get busy. We all have parties and treats. that is NOT what I'm talking about. It is if you have the opinion, like stated by several on this thread, that there is NO difference between highly refined, additive laden foods and 'real' foods, whether you call them natural or whatever, that it becomes a problem. Because if there is truly no difference, why would eat them in moderation? What does it matter? Why wouldn't eat like that everyday?? If there is no difference between a homemade burger from grass-fed organic beef and a McDonald's patty? Between organic free-range chicken from a local farm and frozen nuggets? Between strawberries on your cake and artificial strawberry icing? If there is truly no benefit in one over the other, as some here say, let's just feed our kids that all the time, why not?
The comments here about moderation only serve to prove the point that people on here who are educated about food realize that these are not equally good food choices, hence the need to moderate their intake. And are being facetious in arguing otherwise.
Your assumptions about why people moderate their food choices just reinforce that you've got this all or nothing, black and white, good vs bad philosophy underscoring every comment you make about food.
People don't only moderate the "bad foods". You moderate ALL foods, that's the whole point of "All Things In Moderation, Including Moderation". You seem to be coming at it from the assumption that a person really wants to eat unlimited junk food and that the only way they can justify eating any junk food is to call it "moderation" but that all of those people are really hoping that they can somehow manage to take a pill to achieve nutritional goals, another pill to manage their weight, and then it's free reign to eat whatever they want which in your mind, is weirdly: Cheetohs, McDonalds, Kraft Easy Mac and Fake Strawberry Icing, if I remember the examples you've brought up in this thread.
Most people I know in real life (since you seem to be a fan of playing that game) want to eat a variety of foods. They like grilling out in the summer time with grass fed beef, maybe some roasted potatoes and asparagus, fresh strawberries (although I'm allergic, so for me, fresh strawberries are definitely bad) AND can appreciate a side of Velveeta Shells and Cheese thrown in the mix. That's what moderation is, you aren't checking the box on the healthy foods just so you can justify eating the Shells and Cheese or an Oreo McFlurry after dinner. You are building a comprehensive diet that includes ALL the foods, the healthy ones AND the less nutrient dense ones, in moderation.
If nutrition and calories were not a factor - would you eat nothing but "junk food"? Why do you assume that anyone wants to build a diet entirely around these types of food then?
We're talking about two different things here.
You are talking about choices and diet.
I am talking about knowledge and comparing foods - simply on their own, in isolation, regardless if you eat them once a year or every day.
And yes, I believe there are gradations of good, not-so-good, and bad (hence the term 'junk' btw, ever wonder where that came from?) foods. Does that always translate to me or others only eating the 'good' foods? Of course not. I don't always choose to eat or feed my family what I think is the best food choice. But I know that if we're eating pepperoni pizza from Pizza Hut tonight (which I can't remember the last time we did to be fair), we are not as making as healthy of a food choice as if we made homemade pizza with whole wheat crust and fresh toppings instead. I know that that my kid is going to a party and will eat neon-blue Costco cupcakes there, and that's fine, but if I am going to be making cupcakes for them and I have the time, I will make them from scratch, with no food dye and very little sugar, and believe me all the parents I know really appreciate it and most try to do the same on their end as well. (but if my kid really wanted blue cupcakes for his birthday, they would get them of course. If they wanted them every weekend, they wouldn't).
Another example: I have a friend who is hard-core into cooking and making everything herself. She raises chickens, she grows her own organic veggies. She has stopped buying prepared bread and even pasta for her family and makes it all herself ((with eggs from her chickens of course and specially-ordered whole-grain flours and sourdough cultures etc) and believes her homemade food is much healthier and better quality than storebought - and I agree. I am way too lazy to do all that, I will admit, and I despise gardening and outdoor work so I will probably never go to the extent of growing my own food - but for those who can, it is most certainly a superior choice than picking up conventional produce at Safeway. And I'm not afraid to admit that this friend is feeding her family better than I feed my own.
In my view, even natural foods come in degrees of quality - growing your own is better than buying, buying from a local farm is better than pre-packaged from a supermarket, cooking yourself is better than premade or frozen meals, pre-made meals that only use natural ingredients such as Amy's are better than those that are laden with other additives, etc etc.
At any point I can make an inferior food choice for convenience, pleasure or other reasons, but that does not discredit the fact that it is in fact inferior.
I'm not sure there is that much of a difference between the pepperoni you'd use to top a pizza at home and the pepperoni Pizza Hut is using. It seems like you're stressing yourself about things that are creating little, if any, real difference for your children
I wouldn't use pepperoni if we were making at it home, we would use grilled chicken breast and plenty of fresh veggies and homemade sauce.
If you honestly believe there is no difference between a homemade food made with quality ingredients over fast food made with the cheapest highly processed ingredients and flavor additives....well, I won't bother.
This thread is kind of surreal. Like an alternate reality, or arguing with a bunch of five year olds.
In real life, I see almost everyone moving towards natural and scratch-made and away from artificial and highly processed more and more, leaving it only for rare occasions; like I said I just assumed that was a common sense thing. Guess much of this country is still behind.
So you'd use different toppings, creating a difference in macronutrients. Pizza Hut offers chicken and vegetables as toppings, right?
To say there is a difference in the toppings . . . that's because you literally chose different toppings. You were free to choose chicken and vegetables for your pizza. You choose differently. To say that this somehow makes Pizza Hut inferior to your homemade pizza doesn't make sense.
They're different due to the specific choices you made. If you'd chosen vegetables from Pizza Hut they wouldn't be inferior to the vegetables you'd use at home, would they? I find it surreal that you're blaming Pizza Hut for including the processed ingredients that . . . you requested.
Actually yes, they probably would be, if I were using good quality organic veggies, even better seasonal and local.
As for the chicken, this is what's in Pizza Hut's chicken:
Chicken, Water, Modified Tapioca Starch, Garlic Powder, Onion Powder, Dextrose, Salt, Flavour, Spice, Sodium Phosphate, Spice Extractives,Tricalcium Phosphate.
As opposed to chicken, sea salt, fresh garlic and herbs.
Plus the chicken itself is very likely the cheapest and hence of low quality. As opposed to a free-range organic chicken.
This is one of their sauces:
Dried Butter (Cream, Salt), Palm Oil, Maltodextrin, Nonfat Milk, Salt, Food Starch-Modified, Natural Flavors, Sodium Caseinate, Dried Garlic, Soy Lecithin, Monoglycerides, Dipotassium Phosphate, Artificial Color, Xanthan Gum, Dried Parsley, Citric Acid, Bha (To Help Protect Flavor),Yellow 5, Yellow 6, And Less Than 2 Percent Silicon Dioxide (Anti-Caking Agent) -Contains Milk, Soy.
Why would someone want all this on their pizza, I'm honestly not sure.
You can argue all these things don't matter and there is no difference, go ahead. Sorry, I will not be convinced otherwise.
Science disagrees with you
https://bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/hormonal-responses-fast-food-meal.html/
This thing again. That's not science. Its an intellectually dishonest experiment that purposely designed to provide a very specific out come. You can't give a group of fat guys one single hamburger, and go see no difference. Wallah!! Its science!!!
But to be honest, I'm not a fan of free range chicken. They're usually stringy and tough. Also, I don't know where that chickens been!!
24 -
One problem is people seem to have trouble defining what they mean when they say a food is "natural" and lots of people use the term to mean very different things which makes meaningful conversation difficult to impossible.
I think there is something to be said about favouring including whole foods in your diet and not having only processed foods. That said I don't think processed foods are "toxic", rather just that they are reductionist and likely lack many of the micronutrients found in whole foods.
As for the idea that natural foods are always the best option and are somehow better for you by simply being from nature is a fallacy, especially when the idea that "unnatural foods" are full of "chemikillz" and "toxins" get involved.24 -
nettiklive wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
Why do you think someone who is okay with their children sometimes having frosting is going to never going to buy strawberries? Why can't a family have roasted chicken some days and chicken nuggets on others? Why can you only envision an all-or-nothing situation?
If you think opening the door to some days with frosting and chicken nuggets means people would eat nothing else, I hate to break it to you -- you don't really like strawberries and roasted chicken. You're just clinging to them out of fear.
You missed my point. I never said that "someone who is okay with their children sometimes having frosting is going to never going to buy strawberries". What I said is that it's silly for an informed person to argue that there is no difference between fresh strawberries and icing, and that one is not superior to the other simply because it's natural - that was the premise of the original post.
Most parents I know, myself included, will be fine with giving kids access to a huge bowl of fresh fruit, berries, veggies etc to snack on as much as they want (barring medical issues or allergies); but most would not do the same with a can of frosting. If one is no worse than the other, than why not?
No one, literally no one in this thread, including in the OP, said there was no difference between fresh strawberries and icing. People did say that so called "natural foods" are not inherently superior though, but again, making that general statement, is not the same as saying there is NO DIFFERENCE between fresh strawberries and canned icing.
Do you really think that is what people are saying?
It's good to know though that this entire time you've been arguing against a point in the Original Post which, I'm not sure if you realized, was a very distilled summary of a conversation that OP had with an unnamed person, and quite possibly, was not an exact accounting of the actual words that were exchanged... and probably not even completely reflective of the OP's actual opinion on food quality and nutrition. It was a conversation starter- not a definitive set in stone proclamation.
You seem to be arguing with the rest of us based on this misunderstanding and suggesting that any of us that are saying that there's nothing wrong with eating Oreos in moderation, or occasionally feeding kids chicken nuggets on busy nights are saying that all foods are completely equivalent in nutritional profile, which is just plain silly.
I don't know what the op was or wasn't trying to say, I can't read minds, only.what was written here. The way I read it, he and several others were implying that there are absolutely no benefits in choosing foods free of artificial additives over those that have them. Regardless of other diet context, I believe foods CAN be compared simply on their own. And no one will convince me that foods containing artificial additives are just as healthy as choice as an alternative without them (let's focus on this for this argument's sake and leave alone other considerations such as processing, organic etc).
People here are arguing that no food is inherently worse or better than another, it's only about context, and I disagree. Again, I can go back to my glass of wine. Can I have it as part of an.overall healthy diet? Of course. Does it mean there is nothing harmful or unhealthy about alcohol? No. I may have it as part of a healthy diet but I know that is very likely NOT doing favors for my health - at best, it is simply not causing any effects; at worst, it is doing damage somewhere at the cellular level even though I do not feel any I'll effects at the moment. It is a risk I am taking, knowing the cons and making an informed decision and practicing moderation. I don't have the same need to moderate, say, my intake of water or herbal tea because, aside from rare water intoxication in insane amounts, an extra cup doesn't have the potential for harm in the same way as wine.
I dont know how else to explain it. You can sprinkle your food with the tiniest bit of laundry detergent every day. Maybe it gives it a cool funky flavor that you enjoy. Likely if the amount is small enough, you won't feel any ill effects from it at the beginning. Maybe for days. Maybe for years. Maybe you can keep eating it all your life and live long and healthy and it will never affect you. And maybe it will build up and kill you in a matter of months or decades. I dont know. I haven't tried. But it somehow just makes sense that since it is not a food substance, it's better not to take that risk and find out.
And if some corporation now decides to create new and cool edible Tide pods claiming they can do your laundry AND double as a snack, I'm not going to run out and start buying them as part of the kids snack rotation. Again simply because it just seems like the logical thing to me. Apparently I'm in the minority on here. Oh well.
You know you make a lot of good points, but you kinda ruin it with the hyperbole. You'd do a lot better to leave out the tide pods.15 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »One problem is people seem to have trouble defining what they mean when they say a food is "natural" and lots of people use the term to mean very different things which makes meaningful conversation difficult to impossible.
I think there is something to be said about favouring including whole foods in your diet and not having only processed foods. That said I don't think processed foods are "toxic", rather just that they are reductionist and likely lack many of the micronutrients found in whole foods.
As for the idea that natural foods are always the best option and are somehow better for you by simply being from nature is a fallacy, especially when the idea that "unnatural foods" are full of "chemikillz" and "toxins" get involved.
This is a really balanced view that I think a lot of regular posters here would advocate. Sadly it doesn't confer any ability to feel superior over the unwashed masses eating box mac and cheese and doritos.20 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »I despise gardening and outdoor work so I will probably never go to the extent of growing my own food - but for those who can, it is most certainly a superior choice than picking up conventional produce at Safeway.
I do do some of that. I enjoy gardening and have grown my own food to the extent possible (I only had a roofdeck until this year), and am really excited about having a real backyard garden this year. I love green markets and so tended to buy fruit there, and during the season I get the rest of my vegetables from a farm share (the farm happens to be organic, although I don't personally care about that). As mentioned in my earlier post, I used to make pasta, although I currently don't very often. I like making bread but rarely eat it, so tend not to anymore.
Despite this, I think it would be absurd to claim that home gardened vegetables are somehow meaningfully different, nutritionally, from storebought, or that during the winter one can't get nutrition (you seemed excited about trucked in from far away produce in an earlier post, but although I eat that stuff too, in the winter, I realize it is actually nutritionally inferior to local OR frozen, because it has to be picked early and eaten longer after being picked, while frozen is frozen immediately and picked ripe).
I also cannot see any reason why homemade pasta would be different from dried -- and re all the scary (not) preservatives, dried pasta doesn't even have any normally.
There's a social cachet in some circles to all the homemade, local, small producer, organic, no additives, artisanal, blah-de-blah stuff, and I also get that it often tastes better (to some palates, including mine) and is just somehow more appealing -- although I don't think that's necessarily any more logical than a kid thinking blue makes something more fun to eat. That's why I think some of this is pure elitism of a sort. And NOT truly health-based at all. Tying "being healthy" to having the means or time or inclination to be so purist is, I think, a really unfortunate thing, as it basically tells a lot of people who do make good decisions that what they do isn't good enough (including getting some frozen vegetables or canned tomatoes and beans and dried pasta and premade bread and conventional chicken at the local grocery).
And like I said, I am somewhat sensitive to this because such inclinations/biases are something I can laugh at in myself to some degree (and in my general social circle -- the Portlandia skit about the couple ordering at the restaurant with the local farm information rang really true for my particular neighborhood, for example, although I am in Chicago, not Portland).
On gardening. I grew up in farmland. My mother and grandfather are/were experts. I enjoy it myself, but in no way shape or form can grow vegetables to quality they can. I think gardening is as much of an art as anything, and I do it think it ultimately affects the nutrient levels involved, though I think seed strains have the biggest influence on nutrient level. The skill of gardener has more impact on flavor and color, but some affect on nutrients as well. From another angle, however, I stopped gardening. I live just outside of downtown detroit, I got to the point where I'm questioning the quality of my dirt and the levels of acid rain. Am I growing vegetable in a poisoned environment. One thing was clear, I'm definitely not going to be growing vegetables better than someone in a controlled greenhouse, nor can I do it cheaper. So what was the point?5
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