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What commonly given MFP Forum advice do you personally disagree with?
Replies
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Well, maybe my biases and projections and experiences are stronger influences for me than I realize. I've made what I believe to be a reasonable point. I also see (and respect) the counter points being made by most of you - they certainly hold water. I enjoy good, thoughtful discussions like these, and I will try to be more cognizant of my own tendencies going forward... thank you for your thoughts.11
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Unsurprisingly, I 100% agree with kimny's post just above.
My sense is that the people who complaint that others don't talk about nutrition enough really are annoyed that those people don't talk about nutrition in precisely the way they want, don't agree with their own (often common in pop media) views on nutrition, such things as:
Sugar (all sugar) is bad in any amounts
White foods are always bad and must be cut out
No fast food ever
No junk food ever (with the idea that everyone understands exactly what they mean by junk food)
No artificial sugar ever
Nothing processed (although they are often very confused about what "processed" even means)
Carbs are bad (or, to be fair, sometimes sat fat is bad or anything not plant-based is bad)
Soy is terrible, corn is terrible, GMOs are terrible
Pizza is bad for you
Artificial sugar is bad for you and should never be consumed
Restaurants, all restaurants, are bad for you
So on.
When people reject these ideas and reject the idea that a stark distinction between "good foods" and "bad foods" (never eat or feel guilty if you eat and decide you had a terrible day), that is interpreted as saying (or falsely claimed to be saying) "nutrition does not matter, only calories count."
What I find odd and frustrating is that I think the kinds of black and white statements above show a lack of understanding of nutrition and a focus on only cutting things out, and not the much, much more important question of what you are eating.
That was the point I was trying to make by saying that sure, whole grain pasta may have (moderately) more nutrients or a tiny bit more fiber than white, but how much you eat and what else you eat with it and what you eat the rest of the day and week are all vastly more important (not to mention how much you eat and whether you are exercising or drinking to excess or smoking). The idea that caring about health and nutrition comes down to whether or not you avoid white pasta is really odd, especially given how small the difference is going to be between a serving of each.
Same with insisting the focus should be on total sugar (or even added sugar) when a more holistic, comprehensive focus on eating adequate protein, lots of vegetables, sufficient fiber, healthy fats, total calories, moderating sweets, etc., is simply going to prevent any issue with excessive added sugar.
So when people say others aren't talking about nutrition or don't care about it, I don't think they are really being fair or accurate, at all. I wish they'd explain why they think the things I (and others) have actually said about nutrition are wrong.13 -
My sense is that the people who complaint that others don't talk about nutrition enough really are annoyed that those people don't talk about nutrition in precisely the way they want, don't agree with their own (often common in pop media) views on nutrition,
That is an excellent clarification, a point I had missed previously. I think that is probably a far greater issue than the point I was making.8 -
The generalization of high protein/low carbohydrate diets. Proteins coming from meat are often paired with fat and cholesterol. Moderate amounts of dietary protein can come from animals but the majority should be from beans and whole grains. There is also a huge witch hunt against carbohydrates, but not all carbohydrates should be treated the same. Whole grains and whole vegetables should be consumed as they contain essential nutrients and fiber.14
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My sense is that the people who complaint that others don't talk about nutrition enough really are annoyed that those people don't talk about nutrition in precisely the way they want, don't agree with their own (often common in pop media) views on nutrition, such things as:
Sugar (all sugar) is bad in any amounts
White foods are always bad and must be cut out
No fast food ever
No junk food ever (with the idea that everyone understands exactly what they mean by junk food)
No artificial sugar ever
Nothing processed (although they are often very confused about what "processed" even means)
Carbs are bad (or, to be fair, sometimes sat fat is bad or anything not plant-based is bad)
Soy is terrible, corn is terrible, GMOs are terrible
Pizza is bad for you
Artificial sugar is bad for you and should never be consumed
Restaurants, all restaurants, are bad for you
So on.
Yes... the typical complaint comes from those espousing their particular definition of a healthy diet.
Which I think is the population this thread was aimed at in the first place
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Well, maybe my biases and projections and experiences are stronger influences for me than I realize. I've made what I believe to be a reasonable point. I also see (and respect) the counter points being made by most of you - they certainly hold water. I enjoy good, thoughtful discussions like these, and I will try to be more cognizant of my own tendencies going forward... thank you for your thoughts.
Edit: we cross-posted, so maybe this is moot now, but in furtherance of possible conversation I'll leave it.
Are you saying that you believe that you are constantly told by MFP that you should ignore nutrition?
I'm curious how your biases -- as mentioned by you -- come into this.
From what you'd said here -- and forgive me if I get this wrong, I'm trying to be accurate to what I recall -- you don't eat the greatest diet and realize that, but struggle with food choice for reasons other than knowledge (emotional issues, habit, stuff like that). How does the advice on MFP play into that? I would agree that people are often told that if they are struggling and need to lose that just focusing on calories is a way to lose (which is different from saying that nutrition does not matter).
I personally think nutrition is very important, it's easier for me to focus on that than calories, and easier for me to control calories if I am already focusing on nutrition and exercise. But I recognize that we all come to this from different places and that I enjoy thinking about nutrition and cooking and love vegetables and don't really like fast food isn't the case for everyone (or the be-all, end-all about nutrition), and so making baby steps can be helpful, or even just focusing on calories (which will naturally tend to cause people to gravitate to lower cal and more filling foods, IMO). Experimenting with what causes you to not be hungry, things like that, using common sense about meeting protein and other macros, getting in vegetables.
I have a friend who lost about 100 lbs some years ago, and when she started she was very clear that she had no intention of changing her diet (which was pretty bad, mostly fast food). It was something of a rebellious thing -- I don't want to cook, I want to eat this way. She did lose a bunch doing that, although making better choices at the fast food places, and then increasingly got interested in cooking and changed more. I think -- and I think she'd acknowledge -- that she had food issues and being nagged about how she didn't eat right made it harder for her. Deciding she could do it her way, and didn't have to conform to norms, made it easier, at did focusing on just one change rather than feeling like she had to give up all the foods she loved.
I didn't do it that way -- in my late 20s I realized I was getting fat because I'd stopped exercising, ate lots of high cal restaurant food we could get free at work, and then stuff that was free around the office. I decided I needed to find a way to cook my food and have a schedule, and did that, and started exercising again, and didn't count calories at all, and that worked for me then. But people have different things that work for them (and I managed to find a way in my late 30s to gain again while still eating a basically home-cooked, healthy diet).2 -
Well, maybe my biases and projections and experiences are stronger influences for me than I realize. I've made what I believe to be a reasonable point. I also see (and respect) the counter points being made by most of you - they certainly hold water. I enjoy good, thoughtful discussions like these, and I will try to be more cognizant of my own tendencies going forward... thank you for your thoughts.
Edit: we cross-posted, so maybe this is moot now, but in furtherance of possible conversation I'll leave it.
Are you saying that you believe that you are constantly told by MFP that you should ignore nutrition?
I'm curious how your biases -- as mentioned by you -- come into this.
From what you'd said here -- and forgive me if I get this wrong, I'm trying to be accurate to what I recall -- you don't eat the greatest diet and realize that, but struggle with food choice for reasons other than knowledge (emotional issues, habit, stuff like that). How does the advice on MFP play into that? I would agree that people are often told that if they are struggling and need to lose that just focusing on calories is a way to lose (which is different from saying that nutrition does not matter).
I personally think nutrition is very important, it's easier for me to focus on that than calories, and easier for me to control calories if I am already focusing on nutrition and exercise. But I recognize that we all come to this from different places and that I enjoy thinking about nutrition and cooking and love vegetables and don't really like fast food isn't the case for everyone (or the be-all, end-all about nutrition), and so making baby steps can be helpful, or even just focusing on calories (which will naturally tend to cause people to gravitate to lower cal and more filling foods, IMO). Experimenting with what causes you to not be hungry, things like that, using common sense about meeting protein and other macros, getting in vegetables.
I have a friend who lost about 100 lbs some years ago, and when she started she was very clear that she had no intention of changing her diet (which was pretty bad, mostly fast food). It was something of a rebellious thing -- I don't want to cook, I want to eat this way. She did lose a bunch doing that, although making better choices at the fast food places, and then increasingly got interested in cooking and changed more. I think -- and I think she'd acknowledge -- that she had food issues and being nagged about how she didn't eat right made it harder for her. Deciding she could do it her way, and didn't have to conform to norms, made it easier, at did focusing on just one change rather than feeling like she had to give up all the foods she loved.
I didn't do it that way -- in my late 20s I realized I was getting fat because I'd stopped exercising, ate lots of high cal restaurant food we could get free at work, and then stuff that was free around the office. I decided I needed to find a way to cook my food and have a schedule, and did that, and started exercising again, and didn't count calories at all, and that worked for me then. But people have different things that work for them (and I managed to find a way in my late 30s to gain again while still eating a basically home-cooked, healthy diet).
No. I never said that people are blatantly encouraged to ignore nutrition, or that I think MFP in some way encourages people to ignore nutrition.
My point was that when "people" respond to basic weight loss questions with a simple, "eat less than you burn", that leaves a lot of context open to interpretation. And given how much knowledge, experiences, emotions, etc can vary person to person, I can understand how someone might interpret that as "MPF doesn't care about nutrition".6 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »walktalkdog wrote: »I have occasionally read on here the suggestion to those who are not losing as quickly as they hoped, or are stalled that they "need to to eat more to lose weight". Huh? That one I don't understand, nor agree with.
Well, there's an underlying kernel of truth to that statement under specific circumstances, but as general advice goes, it's not good to bandy about.
A scenario could play out wherein someone is over-restricting for a long period of time, their energy levels plummet, they become more lethargic, their exercise is less effective and burns less calories, they have less involuntary movement throughout the day, and their TDEE plummets. They may even struggle with compliance and have occasional binges.
In a scenario like that, eating more to the point where they're still in a deficit but properly fueling themselves so they have better energy, get their TDEE back up and start burning more calories, and are able to remain compliant with their diet? It's good advice to eat more.
Of course you can't fit all of that into a pithy statement.
Thank you; I guess that makes sense for some people. Not for me, so that's why I can't wrap my head around it.0 -
Well, maybe my biases and projections and experiences are stronger influences for me than I realize. I've made what I believe to be a reasonable point. I also see (and respect) the counter points being made by most of you - they certainly hold water. I enjoy good, thoughtful discussions like these, and I will try to be more cognizant of my own tendencies going forward... thank you for your thoughts.
Edit: we cross-posted, so maybe this is moot now, but in furtherance of possible conversation I'll leave it.
Are you saying that you believe that you are constantly told by MFP that you should ignore nutrition?
I'm curious how your biases -- as mentioned by you -- come into this.
From what you'd said here -- and forgive me if I get this wrong, I'm trying to be accurate to what I recall -- you don't eat the greatest diet and realize that, but struggle with food choice for reasons other than knowledge (emotional issues, habit, stuff like that). How does the advice on MFP play into that? I would agree that people are often told that if they are struggling and need to lose that just focusing on calories is a way to lose (which is different from saying that nutrition does not matter).
I personally think nutrition is very important, it's easier for me to focus on that than calories, and easier for me to control calories if I am already focusing on nutrition and exercise. But I recognize that we all come to this from different places and that I enjoy thinking about nutrition and cooking and love vegetables and don't really like fast food isn't the case for everyone (or the be-all, end-all about nutrition), and so making baby steps can be helpful, or even just focusing on calories (which will naturally tend to cause people to gravitate to lower cal and more filling foods, IMO). Experimenting with what causes you to not be hungry, things like that, using common sense about meeting protein and other macros, getting in vegetables.
I have a friend who lost about 100 lbs some years ago, and when she started she was very clear that she had no intention of changing her diet (which was pretty bad, mostly fast food). It was something of a rebellious thing -- I don't want to cook, I want to eat this way. She did lose a bunch doing that, although making better choices at the fast food places, and then increasingly got interested in cooking and changed more. I think -- and I think she'd acknowledge -- that she had food issues and being nagged about how she didn't eat right made it harder for her. Deciding she could do it her way, and didn't have to conform to norms, made it easier, at did focusing on just one change rather than feeling like she had to give up all the foods she loved.
I didn't do it that way -- in my late 20s I realized I was getting fat because I'd stopped exercising, ate lots of high cal restaurant food we could get free at work, and then stuff that was free around the office. I decided I needed to find a way to cook my food and have a schedule, and did that, and started exercising again, and didn't count calories at all, and that worked for me then. But people have different things that work for them (and I managed to find a way in my late 30s to gain again while still eating a basically home-cooked, healthy diet).
No. I never said that people are blatantly encouraged to ignore nutrition, or that I think MFP in some way encourages people to ignore nutrition.
My point was that when "people" respond to basic weight loss questions with a simple, "eat less than you burn", that leaves a lot of context open to interpretation. And given how much knowledge, experiences, emotions, etc can vary person to person, I can understand how someone might interpret that as "MPF doesn't care about nutrition".
"Eat less than you burn" makes sense as advice if you start with the assumption that people coming here are generally meeting their nutritional needs prior to losing weight.
If someone is getting what they need from a variety of foods prior to losing weight, then eating less of those goods is generally also going to result in them meeting their needs. They may need to make some adjustments or tweaks in order to meet all their needs on a deficit, but for your average person who isn't on the verge of malnutrition, there is time to make these adjustments. It isn't an urgent situation where they need to get sufficient niacin or they'll die.
In the meantime, we *know* what causes many people to fail on a diet. It's trying to change everything about their lives all at once, throwing out all their favorite foods, and trying to live on a diet of steamed chicken and broccoli because they think it's the only way to lose weight. It's the thought that weight loss has to be a total "lifestyle change" where they become a whole new person and learn how to hate pizza.
I really believe that the average person losing weight is going to be more successful if they *don't* try to do a total nutritional overhaul but instead learn to make the way they like to eat fit their calorie goals and -- if necessary -- incrementally making changes in order to ensure they're getting what they need and to promote satiety.11 -
There is some really good stuff in this thread! Brings back my confidence in MFP!3
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bobsanders1 wrote: »UsE a fOoD ScALe
why do you disagree with this?5 -
6
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bobsanders1 wrote: »deannalfisher wrote: »bobsanders1 wrote: »UsE a fOoD ScALe
why do you disagree with this?
Because most people here believe its the be all end all of weight loss. Haven't weighted a single ounce of food in 6 months and doing just fine.
Maybe for skinny people trying to "lose weight" it may help but those of us with a ton to drop its unnecessary and a waste of time. As long as your mindful of portion sizes it does the same job.
You do realize eventually (if you are successful) you will someday be a 'skinny person trying to lose weight' for those last few stubborn pounds? Just because it doesn't apply to you specifically right now doesn't make it bad advice.19 -
bobsanders1 wrote: »deannalfisher wrote: »bobsanders1 wrote: »UsE a fOoD ScALe
why do you disagree with this?
Because most people here believe its the be all end all of weight loss. Haven't weighted a single ounce of food in 6 months and doing just fine.
Maybe for skinny people trying to "lose weight" it may help but those of us with a ton to drop its unnecessary and a waste of time. As long as your mindful of portion sizes it does the same job.
Not when you've got spatial perception issues. Portion creep is real.14 -
bobsanders1 wrote: »deannalfisher wrote: »bobsanders1 wrote: »UsE a fOoD ScALe
why do you disagree with this?
Because most people here believe its the be all end all of weight loss. Haven't weighted a single ounce of food in 6 months and doing just fine.
Maybe for skinny people trying to "lose weight" it may help but those of us with a ton to drop its unnecessary and a waste of time. As long as your mindful of portion sizes it does the same job.
this is why we recommend....i don't know about you but i struggle to see a visual difference between the 2
11 -
bobsanders1 wrote: »deannalfisher wrote: »bobsanders1 wrote: »UsE a fOoD ScALe
why do you disagree with this?
Because most people here believe its the be all end all of weight loss. Haven't weighted a single ounce of food in 6 months and doing just fine.
Maybe for skinny people trying to "lose weight" it may help but those of us with a ton to drop its unnecessary and a waste of time. As long as your mindful of portion sizes it does the same job.
Usually this advice is given to people who are complaining that they are not losing weight at the recommended calorie allowance. If that's the issue, the first thing to check is that you are in fact consuming the recommended number of calories - and the tool you use to do that is a food scale.
Even obese people can need a food scale - as a matter of fact studies have shown that obese people are worse at estimating portion sizes, and more likely to underreport the food they eat, than normal weight people. There was a TV special featuring actress Dawn French, who claimed to be unable to lose, and they proved through spying on her using radioactive isotopes that she was lying about her food diary by 67%! Eating literally three times as much as you believe you are eating will sabotage weight loss efforts.
Of course if you aren't having trouble losing weight, you don't need advice on how to lose weight. That seems pretty obvious.11 -
bobsanders1 wrote: »
Already dropped 100 lbs hit my goal, all new clothes and am much Skinner than i was. Doesn't mean i forget where i came from. There was no plateau, no stalling or stubborn pounds period. A little common sense and hard work goes a long way.bobsanders1 wrote: »deannalfisher wrote: »bobsanders1 wrote: »UsE a fOoD ScALe
why do you disagree with this?
Because most people here believe its the be all end all of weight loss. Haven't weighted a single ounce of food in 6 months and doing just fine.
Maybe for skinny people trying to "lose weight" it may help but those of us with a ton to drop its unnecessary and a waste of time. As long as your mindful of portion sizes it does the same job.
You do realize eventually (if you are successful) you will someday be a 'skinny person trying to lose weight' for those last few stubborn pounds? Just because it doesn't apply to you specifically right now doesn't make it bad advice.
So do the proper tools
Sounds like you're able to portion intuitively. Not everyone is. (That's not a character flaw, by the way.) 11 -
bobsanders1 wrote: »deannalfisher wrote: »bobsanders1 wrote: »UsE a fOoD ScALe
why do you disagree with this?
Because most people here believe its the be all end all of weight loss. Haven't weighted a single ounce of food in 6 months and doing just fine.
It's advice for people struggling to lose.
I lost just fine without weighing too -- although I eventually decided to weigh since I find estimating more annoying and had a scale for baking anyway. But when I was not weighing and losing just fine I never posted "help, eating 1200 and not losing, what is wrong?!!!?"
If someone is estimating and it's not working, improving logging and perhaps introducing a food scale is a good idea.8 -
I joined MFP in the first place to get more specific in my food logging. I'dbobsanders1 wrote: »deannalfisher wrote: »bobsanders1 wrote: »UsE a fOoD ScALe
why do you disagree with this?
Because most people here believe its the be all end all of weight loss. Haven't weighted a single ounce of food in 6 months and doing just fine.
Maybe for skinny people trying to "lose weight" it may help but those of us with a ton to drop its unnecessary and a waste of time. As long as your mindful of portion sizes it does the same job.
I agree with you that it isn't essential for everyone (even said that explicitly on a thread I started about food scale time-saving tips, among other places).
That said, I joined MFP after losing about halfway to what turned out to be goal weight (28 pounds down of 50-60 needed). I'd been eyeballing portions and estimating calories, which worked great . . . until it didn't. My weight loss slowed way down, and it wasn't clear to me where/how to make changes and still maintain really good nutrition.
I figured I needed to track more accurately to keep the scale moving in my desired direction, so it was natural for me to start using a food scale and treat the process like a fun science-fair project. I'm just guessing, but I probably could've gotten along OK for another 10 pounds or so with better logging plus eyeballing. After that, I think it would've been much less manageable.
I agree that there's sometimes an over-prescription of food scales, but the data one gets from accuracy is helpful in some ways (even when not strictly necessary), and I think it's 100% appropriate to suggest a food scale to someone who's complaining of plateaus or stalls or "unexplained" regain. It clarifies the picture.
IMO, it can be a barrier that people who've never learned to use a food scale (efficiently) think it's going to be much more fussy, time-consuming and instrusive than it actually is. For sure, it's less time-consuming than a heavy reliance on cups/spoons measuring. More time-consuming than eyeballing, though.2 -
bobsanders1 wrote: »deannalfisher wrote: »bobsanders1 wrote: »UsE a fOoD ScALe
why do you disagree with this?
Because most people here believe its the be all end all of weight loss. Haven't weighted a single ounce of food in 6 months and doing just fine.
Maybe for skinny people trying to "lose weight" it may help but those of us with a ton to drop its unnecessary and a waste of time. As long as your mindful of portion sizes it does the same job.
Use a food scale is usually suggested when someone posts a "HELP...not losing and doing everything right" on the forums.6
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