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5k training to break 25 minutes

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  • DX2JX2DX2JX2 Posts: 1,909Member Member Posts: 1,909Member Member


    Just base on this, I'd say with tapering, rest, and good food... you should set your goal tine closer to 22:30.

    I like the ambition but 22:30 (~7:15 min/mile) is pretty massive and is worlds different than ~8:30 min/miles. Picking up 30 secs/mile over 3.1 miles to get to 25 minutes is still a pretty worthy goal over the next 3 months.

    My bad, i was looking at the math for just 3 miles ... the differnece between 3 miles and 5k is near a minute at his pace...

    But, he did a 26 min 5k as a segment of a 5 mile run at that pace. Which is 8:23 miles and his heart rate was only 150. That sounds like a looooot of reserve left. ...and this is the beginning of his training program.... for his first 5k.

    I wouldn't be surprised to see him shatter 25 minutes by a lot. By more than a minute.

    It's very possible to run 5K at very close to race pace and still be able to knock out an easy 3 miles afterwards, especially if you're already accustomed to running distance and have the legs for it.

    Also, while all individuals are different, remember that OP is 55. If he is close to the standard 220-age max heart rate number, then 150 would be about 90% of max. I only hit 90% of max during serious speed/interval work or at race pace.
  • twatson4936twatson4936 Posts: 121Member Member Posts: 121Member Member
    I tried to build a plan using Nike's 5k guide, but man is it hard to follow. One speed day looks like this:
    1.5 miles at 8:00, 200 at 8:25, 200 at 8:00, 200 at 7:30, 200 at 8:25, 200 at 8:00, 200 at 7:30 - 60 sec recovery between 200s 10 min at 9:55.
    I don't want to carry a cheat sheet while I run so I can remember this. I am going back to my old plan and modifying it. Will post soon.
    Thank you all for the encouragement. I've been running for many years, but this is the first time I am trying to really boost my performance so all the help I am getting here is greatly appreciated.
  • twatson4936twatson4936 Posts: 121Member Member Posts: 121Member Member
    Here is my new plan which I modified from 6 week to 8 week. I found it here:
    https://www.runbritain.com/training/runfaster/six-week-schedule-to-run-5k-in-under-24-minutes
    Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday
    Week 1 30-40 min easy 3x5 min fast Rest 40-45 min fartlek Rest 6x2 mins fast 60 mins easy
    several 30 sec burst
    Week 2 30-40 min easy 3x5 min fast Rest 40-45 min fartlek
    several 30 sec burst Rest 6x2 mins fast 65 mins easy
    Week 3 30-40 min easy 3x5 min fast Rest 40-45 min fartlek
    several 30 sec burst Rest 6x2 mins fast 60 mins easy
    Week 4 30-40 min easy 6x90 Secs fast Rest 8x40 secs fast uphill Rest 15 min easy,
    15 min tempo,
    10 min easy 75 mins easy
    Week 5 30-40 min easy 4x4 mins fast Rest 40-45 min fartlek
    several 30 sec burst Rest 8x60 secs fast 60 mins easy
    Week 6 30-40 min easy 5x3 mins fast Rest 8x40 secs fast uphill Rest 15 min easy,
    15 min tempo,
    10 min easy 75 mins easy
    Week 7 30-40 min easy 3x5 min fast Rest 40-45 min fartlek
    several 30 sec burst Rest 6x2 mins fast 60 mins easy
    Week 8 30-40 min easy Rest 6x90 S Fast Rest 3 miles easy Race

    Short fast runs are run at mile pace (7:30)
    Longer fast runs run at 5k pace (8:00)
    Easy runs at recovery pace (10:00)
    Tempo runs are at 8:25 pace
    Fartlek run at tempo with bursts
    Lower paces as I improve

    What do you think? Any feedback is appreciated.
  • Nativestar56Nativestar56 Posts: 86Member Member Posts: 86Member Member
    I highly recommend the book "80/20 Running" by Matt Fitzgerald. You can get it on Amazon for around $10 and it has so much valuable information regarding training for distance running of all levels. It also includes training plans for beginner to advanced for 5K, 10K, HM and marathon distances. They all revolve around the same basic principle that 80% of your mileage should be done at an easy pace and 20% near or above threshold (he also includes info on ways to estimate where your threshold heart rate is).

    I'm currently about a third of the way through this book and I'd second this recommendation. Its a really interesting read and I'm enjoying my runs more and seeing an improvement in my 5k times by using the 80/20 principle (and I'm probably not even doing it properly given that I haven't got to the bit about estimating threshold heart rate!)
  • z4osloz4oslo Posts: 227Member Member Posts: 227Member Member
    Too many high intensity sessions for my taste.
    If you want to go through with this, its REALLY important that your easy days are in fact easy. If you drift into Z3 on your easy days (soooo easy to do) it will backfire on you.

    Even though have have been running for several years, recovery time will be longer when we get older.

    I have sort of the same goal as you (have a 10k race in April, and have signed up for a sub 48:00 time) And my two speed sessions per week is what I can handle in terms of recovery.
    My training load per week is between 40-50 km atm, and will be 50-60 towards the end of my training plan.

    Good luck, and keep us posted.
  • twatson4936twatson4936 Posts: 121Member Member Posts: 121Member Member
    z4oslo wrote: »
    Too many high intensity sessions for my taste.
    If you want to go through with this, its REALLY important that your easy days are in fact easy. If you drift into Z3 on your easy days (soooo easy to do) it will backfire on you.

    Even though have have been running for several years, recovery time will be longer when we get older.

    I have sort of the same goal as you (have a 10k race in April, and have signed up for a sub 48:00 time) And my two speed sessions per week is what I can handle in terms of recovery.
    My training load per week is between 40-50 km atm, and will be 50-60 towards the end of my training plan.

    Good luck, and keep us posted.

    I'll test it for a few weeks. Its a 6 week plan that I adapted to 8 weeks so I should be able to adjust as required. I listen to my body and back off at the slightest bit of concern. If you look at the original plan it was much worse. I noticed tiredness and waking up more than normal. I have rested for a few days and am looking forward to the fartlek tomorrow. thanks and I'll keep everyone posted.
  • twatson4936twatson4936 Posts: 121Member Member Posts: 121Member Member
    Ran my fartlek this morning on an empty stomach and with a 1% incline. I ran 5 minutes at 10:00 pace, 5 minutes at 9:14 pace, then I jumped to 8:34 pace for 1 minute and 7:30 pace for 30 seconds. I repeated this 13 times and finished at 10:00 pace until I reached 40 minutes.
    Here is the time I spent in each zone with my max HR set to 190.
    Heart Rate Zones
    Z5 7:55 19%
    Z4 20:59 52%
    Z3 8:53 22%
    Z2 1:35 3%
    Z1 0:29 1%

    Z1 = 95-113
    Z2 = 114-132
    Z3 = 133-151
    Z4 = 152-170
    Z5 = 171 -->

    My max HR hit 174.

    I felt great and didn't feel like quitting any. I love it when I push myself a little. It gives me energy for the rest of the day.

    So what do you all think? Tomorrow is a complete rest day.

    Thanks
  • z4osloz4oslo Posts: 227Member Member Posts: 227Member Member
    Ran my fartlek this morning on an empty stomach and with a 1% incline. I ran 5 minutes at 10:00 pace, 5 minutes at 9:14 pace, then I jumped to 8:34 pace for 1 minute and 7:30 pace for 30 seconds. I repeated this 13 times and finished at 10:00 pace until I reached 40 minutes.
    Here is the time I spent in each zone with my max HR set to 190.
    Heart Rate Zones
    Z5 7:55 19%
    Z4 20:59 52%
    Z3 8:53 22%
    Z2 1:35 3%
    Z1 0:29 1%

    Z1 = 95-113
    Z2 = 114-132
    Z3 = 133-151
    Z4 = 152-170
    Z5 = 171 -->

    My max HR hit 174.

    I felt great and didn't feel like quitting any. I love it when I push myself a little. It gives me energy for the rest of the day.

    So what do you all think? Tomorrow is a complete rest day.

    Thanks

    My personal opinion is that you are pushing too hard. If your heart rate zones are correct, you are doing 70% of the run in z4 or above. You are not supposed to do that. You are supposed to drift back to Z2 in between your speed intervals.
  • MikePfirrmanMikePfirrman Posts: 759Member Member Posts: 759Member Member
    Others have said this and I concur. I used to run but had Chronic Runner's knee and begrudgingly gave it up around five years ago (still miss trail running to this day).

    I do indoor rowing now and the plans/concepts are so similar it's not funny. I'm currently injured and can't row but I'm working a 5K plan on the Assault Bike (again same concepts apply).

    I finally broke 20 minutes on the rower for a 5K a few years ago. It's actually similar to breaking 20 running a 5K and equally hard, I just found out I'm a better rower than runner! Now, I've been working to break 19 minutes on a 5K rowing, which at 54 would put me in some elite class.

    I'm around your age and have done cardio 6 days a week now for years. The running equivalent of around 40 to 50 MPW roughly. What others are saying is true. You can't go hard for more than 2 days a week unless you're very close to racing (within a month or so). I help moderate the beginner rowing thread (that is also the race prep thread) on C2's website. I've seen over and over again people break down our age doing too many "stress" workouts. Three a weak is asking for injury.

    I have abided by the 80/20 rule for sometime. I injured my back in monthly competition, on something I seldom do. But overall, since strictly following an 80/20 plan, I've been able, for the most part, to continue 5K to 10K training.

    I know guys that have plataeued, who are world class rowers that do distances that are insane. Many of them have shattered through using an 80/20 approach. It's very enticing to work harder than you should most of the time but that will leave you without the ability to work as hard as you could be working the other 20% of the time. You'll end up in the middle somewhere.
  • twatson4936twatson4936 Posts: 121Member Member Posts: 121Member Member
    z4oslo wrote: »
    Ran my fartlek this morning on an empty stomach and with a 1% incline. I ran 5 minutes at 10:00 pace, 5 minutes at 9:14 pace, then I jumped to 8:34 pace for 1 minute and 7:30 pace for 30 seconds. I repeated this 13 times and finished at 10:00 pace until I reached 40 minutes.
    Here is the time I spent in each zone with my max HR set to 190.
    Heart Rate Zones
    Z5 7:55 19%
    Z4 20:59 52%
    Z3 8:53 22%
    Z2 1:35 3%
    Z1 0:29 1%

    Z1 = 95-113
    Z2 = 114-132
    Z3 = 133-151
    Z4 = 152-170
    Z5 = 171 -->

    My max HR hit 174.

    I felt great and didn't feel like quitting any. I love it when I push myself a little. It gives me energy for the rest of the day.

    So what do you all think? Tomorrow is a complete rest day.

    Thanks

    My personal opinion is that you are pushing too hard. If your heart rate zones are correct, you are doing 70% of the run in z4 or above. You are not supposed to do that. You are supposed to drift back to Z2 in between your speed intervals.

    The whole fartlek run is new to me so I could be doing this wrong. With that said, I also do not see how my body will get any faster if I run fast for 30 seconds and then let my heart rate go all the way back to zone 2. I doubt I could even get to zone 4 in 30 seconds. Yes I pushed hard today, but it wasn't an all out push. I had plenty left in the tanks. This is my first 5k race in quite some time, but I have been running for 11 years.
    Can someone school me on the whole fartlek run, what pace should it be run at?

    Always learning
  • z4osloz4oslo Posts: 227Member Member Posts: 227Member Member
    Fartlek is just a freeform interval session.

    A quick rundown from Runnersworld:
    https://www.runnersworld.com/training/a20852351/whats-the-difference-between-fartlek-tempo-and-interval-runs/

    I would use some time to read up on the science behind the 80-20 training. A good start is here:
    http://8020endurance.com/resources/



  • twatson4936twatson4936 Posts: 121Member Member Posts: 121Member Member
    z4oslo wrote: »
    Fartlek is just a freeform interval session.

    A quick rundown from Runnersworld:
    https://www.runnersworld.com/training/a20852351/whats-the-difference-between-fartlek-tempo-and-interval-runs/

    I would use some time to read up on the science behind the 80-20 training. A good start is here:
    http://8020endurance.com/resources/



    Thank you for the info
  • twatson4936twatson4936 Posts: 121Member Member Posts: 121Member Member
    I read up on the science of the 80-20 plan. I also tried it for a week. In a word - Boring. I like to push myself. I enjoy a good long slow run on the perfect day which there might be two a year I can find time to run on. This is not the plan for me. My watch has a recovery mode. As long as I wait the recommended recovery period and work some rest days in and listen to my body I think I'll be fine. So far it has me feeling energized for my next run and I'm feeling great. Less than 6 weeks now. I am also moving to a new house at this time so it is hampering my running a bit. When you burn 1100 calories moving boxes up and down stairs it doesn't leave much in the tank for a run.
  • VladimirnapkinVladimirnapkin Posts: 294Member, Premium Member Posts: 294Member, Premium Member
    I don't see a problem with the plan, but if you can run 400s at that place, you can probably run sub 23 ( possibly a lot sub). If your mile time is a much slower than your 400 meter pace in training, it tells me you are resting too long between intervals. Try not to rest longer than it took to run the interval. Also, I would add a couple of sessions with longer intervals. 800 & 1000s.

    200s and 400s to sharpen, but 800s and 1000s to build race capacity. I wouldn't even worry about tempo runs. (at this point) 5k is almost all about VO2max.

    If you are not a beginner, I would also try to build my quality to 5 or 6K. (I've had coaches say 6 to 8k, and I always did better at 8k, per session. )
  • MikePfirrmanMikePfirrman Posts: 759Member Member Posts: 759Member Member
    I read up on the science of the 80-20 plan. I also tried it for a week. In a word - Boring. I like to push myself. I enjoy a good long slow run on the perfect day which there might be two a year I can find time to run on. This is not the plan for me. My watch has a recovery mode. As long as I wait the recommended recovery period and work some rest days in and listen to my body I think I'll be fine. So far it has me feeling energized for my next run and I'm feeling great. Less than 6 weeks now. I am also moving to a new house at this time so it is hampering my running a bit. When you burn 1100 calories moving boxes up and down stairs it doesn't leave much in the tank for a run.

    If you like doing what you're doing then stick to it. But the 20% on 80/20 training isn't boring. If you're not dying and wanting to quit, you're likely not pushing hard enough on the 20%. Most people that don't understand that don't like it that much.

    I agree with Vlad above on the two sessions. Very similar to my approach. But the two days after your hard days, if the hard days were hard enough, you should be loving a nice slower workout. Yeah, one day (or two if you workout six days a week) you'll be holding back the horsepower and it will seem counterproductive. But over and over again, nothing but mid-level workouts will not get you as fast as you could be.

    I know guys that track their HR on the slow days and monitor distance travelled for those days at the same HR. They dig really deep into the metrics to stay interested. What I do (Indoor rowing) is much easier for that stuff, I'll admit, than running. I know plenty of OCD rowers that try to match the exact splits each time so the workout looks perfect. Concentrating on little things can go a long way.
    edited February 25
  • Silent_SoliloquySilent_Soliloquy Posts: 237Member Member Posts: 237Member Member
    My slow/recovery days I get deep into heart rate and breathing and I always see garmin improve my vo2 max on those days. Its a good mini-goal.

    The underpinning of running is using the least amount of energy possible. A confluence of tiny minutia that add up to success when multiplied out over thousands of steps.

    The key is to use as little energy as possible; I find the slow days perfect for fine-tuning that.
  • TacklewasherTacklewasher Posts: 7,077Member Member Posts: 7,077Member Member
    My slow/recovery days I get deep into heart rate and breathing and I always see garmin improve my vo2 max on those days. Its a good mini-goal.

    I've just started on the 80/20 running, and have been taking it pretty easy, but my VO2Max dropped from mid 40's to 37 from the last few runs. 2 of which were half (in the snow).
  • twatson4936twatson4936 Posts: 121Member Member Posts: 121Member Member
    I love hitting it hard and its working. I did intervals yesterday, 5 minutes warm up at 12 min pace, then 6x2 min at 6:40 min pace with 1 min recovery at 12 min pace. My max heart rate only hit 172 in the last interval. Today is rest day but I can't wait to hit it again tomorrow. I love running and so far I just can't get enough of it. I am actually going to ramp this up a bit more. This interval session only burned 278 calories according to my Garmin watch. I also did this interval first thing in the morning on an empty stomach. If what you are all saying is true then maybe I'm just not going hard enough on my hard days(the 20%). I cannnot remember the last time I ran and wanted to quit. I just want to go faster. less than 3 weeks until my race
  • twatson4936twatson4936 Posts: 121Member Member Posts: 121Member Member
    Tempo run this morning. 5 minute warmup at 12 min pace, then 7:48 pace for 15 minutes. My heart rate was holding steady at 155. I increased the pace to 7:42 and my heart rate climbed to 161. I ran at this pace for 3 minutes then I increased the pace to 7:30. My heart rate maxed at 173 at the 25 minute mark. I then cooled down for 6 minutes at 12 min pace. This was on a treadmill with 1% incline on an empty stomach. Felt great and I could have pushed harder. My race will have more hills but I will also be fully fueled so I think I just might break 25.
  • DX2JX2DX2JX2 Posts: 1,909Member Member Posts: 1,909Member Member
    Tempo run this morning. 5 minute warmup at 12 min pace, then 7:48 pace for 15 minutes. My heart rate was holding steady at 155. I increased the pace to 7:42 and my heart rate climbed to 161. I ran at this pace for 3 minutes then I increased the pace to 7:30. My heart rate maxed at 173 at the 25 minute mark. I then cooled down for 6 minutes at 12 min pace. This was on a treadmill with 1% incline on an empty stomach. Felt great and I could have pushed harder. My race will have more hills but I will also be fully fueled so I think I just might break 25.

    You've basically already achieved it? If you can maintain 7:48 for 15 minutes and then still increase the pace beyond that I really don't think you'll have a problem with a 7:45 min/mile 5K?

    That said, if you've only run this pace on a treadmill thus far take it outside immediately. Wind, weather, stress, and (especially) hills will make a massive difference to your time.

    Remember that 1 mile up hill and 1 mile downhill will not feel the same as two miles flat.
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