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Jillian Michael comments about Lizzo
Replies
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Having heard Lizzo interviewed, she does "celebrate her body", and includes some appearance-related material in her lyrics. I'm not at all saying she shouldn't do either of those things; they're fine. But they do put appearance questions on the table, in contrast to some other musicians who do their musical thing without reference to weight/appearance (but who are also criticized publically for their appearance, of course 🙄😬).
Jillian Michaels seems to be what passes for a fitness and health expert these days, and certainly is a fitness/health celebrity. She does have some professional knowledge/experience that's relevant to questions of weight management and health. In that context, it isn't surprising that interviewers would ask her opinion about something like this, or that she would express concern (that might actually be sincere concern, I don't know) about Lizzo's future health. (That, once pushed, she'd express that in a brash way is completely unsurprising.)
I like Lizzo's music in a casual way, and support her right to be the woman she chooses to be, including bodyweight and her sense of self-value/beauty, as long as it doesn't harm others. I don't personally care for JM, and I do think the interviewers in this case are way more about fanning controversy for reasons of clickbait, and not at all about eliciting useful, thoughtful, expert information for the benefit of readers. That seems reprehensible to me, though I understand what might motivate them to do it. It blows my mind that we would be manipulated by something so transparent, frankly.
And I really, really don't understand why people are interested in this kind of pointless faux controversy - how it helps improve our individual sense of well-being, or ability to live a rewarding life. But it does seem to be "important" in some mysterious cultural way. Meh.
:flowerforyou: to all.
My (personal) takeaway is that me saying "Hey, I like my body" (in the context of a society that frequently tells people, and arguably women in particular, that we shouldn't like our bodies unless we fit in a very specific box as relates to weight, skin tone, age, etc) isn't necessarily an open invitation for people to respond with the reasons why they don't like our bodies.
So I understand that Lizzo may have started the conversation about herself, but that wasn't necessarily an invitation on her part for others to join the conversation by explaining why her feelings about herself are wrong.
I admit this is difficult for me to necessarily discuss dispassionately because it's very hard for me to think about what it must feel to have one's body be the source of public debates and criticisms in this way. Could Lizzo keep it from happening (or at least some of it) by being quiet about how she likes herself (or aspires to like herself)?
Part of this is that I read Lizzo's comments not as an unprompted statement of self-love, but as a specific response to how the world talks to/about women who look like her. So I don't think Michaels is entited to respond however she wants (I am not reading your comments as an argument saying that, btw).14 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Having heard Lizzo interviewed, she does "celebrate her body", and includes some appearance-related material in her lyrics. I'm not at all saying she shouldn't do either of those things; they're fine. But they do put appearance questions on the table, in contrast to some other musicians who do their musical thing without reference to weight/appearance (but who are also criticized publically for their appearance, of course 🙄😬).
Jillian Michaels seems to be what passes for a fitness and health expert these days, and certainly is a fitness/health celebrity. She does have some professional knowledge/experience that's relevant to questions of weight management and health. In that context, it isn't surprising that interviewers would ask her opinion about something like this, or that she would express concern (that might actually be sincere concern, I don't know) about Lizzo's future health. (That, once pushed, she'd express that in a brash way is completely unsurprising.)
I like Lizzo's music in a casual way, and support her right to be the woman she chooses to be, including bodyweight and her sense of self-value/beauty, as long as it doesn't harm others. I don't personally care for JM, and I do think the interviewers in this case are way more about fanning controversy for reasons of clickbait, and not at all about eliciting useful, thoughtful, expert information for the benefit of readers. That seems reprehensible to me, though I understand what might motivate them to do it. It blows my mind that we would be manipulated by something so transparent, frankly.
And I really, really don't understand why people are interested in this kind of pointless faux controversy - how it helps improve our individual sense of well-being, or ability to live a rewarding life. But it does seem to be "important" in some mysterious cultural way. Meh.
:flowerforyou: to all.
My (personal) takeaway is that me saying "Hey, I like my body" (in the context of a society that frequently tells people, and arguably women in particular, that we shouldn't like our bodies unless we fit in a very specific box as relates to weight, skin tone, age, etc) isn't necessarily an open invitation for people to respond with the reasons why they don't like our bodies.
So I understand that Lizzo may have started the conversation about herself, but that wasn't necessarily an invitation on her part for others to join the conversation by explaining why her feelings about herself are wrong.
I admit this is difficult for me to necessarily discuss dispassionately because it's very hard for me to think about what it must feel to have one's body be the source of public debates and criticisms in this way. Could Lizzo keep it from happening (or at least some of it) by being quiet about how she likes herself (or aspires to like herself)?
Part of this is that I read Lizzo's comments not as an unprompted statement of self-love, but as a specific response to how the world talks to/about women who look like her. So I don't think Michaels is entited to respond however she wants (I am not reading your comments as an argument saying that, btw).
Indeed, I'm in complete agreement with you. (And probably should have said I didn't consider Lizzo talking about it to be an invitation to criticism, just that it was a little more understandable (not defensible) in her case why people would comment in reaction. We say stuff, other people say stuff back: Common communication model.
My main point is: Why should we care? Why should we spread and happily chew over this kind of stuff? These are not our neighbors, not our friends, not actual people most of us know as full and nuanced human beings (though they are that in real life), not people we seem to me to be entitled to opinions about (unrelated to tastes/preferences/technical stuff about their professional output, anyway) in part because our opinions will be likely to be more manipulated (by the clickbaiters) than fact-based.
OP, this is completely a joke, and meant kindly, but . . . are you a publicist for Lizzo or JM?
Not to OP, but in general: In what way do our manipulated, poorly-informed opinions on this have meaning or value? (I guess it helps us know each other better, but lots of topics can accomplish that).
(/cranky old lady)7 -
Would I say it? No. Am I surprised she said it? No.5
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Further proof that we have become addicted to outrage.
Seems as if it's one comment taken out of context and responding to a statement by the interviewer:
"I love that they’re putting images out there that we don’t normally don’t get to see of bodies we don’t get to see being celebrated."
Taken within the context of the conversation a completely rational question. Would there be any controversy if she made a comment regarding any other risk mitigating measure?
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janejellyroll wrote: »Having heard Lizzo interviewed, she does "celebrate her body", and includes some appearance-related material in her lyrics. I'm not at all saying she shouldn't do either of those things; they're fine. But they do put appearance questions on the table, in contrast to some other musicians who do their musical thing without reference to weight/appearance (but who are also criticized publically for their appearance, of course 🙄😬).
Jillian Michaels seems to be what passes for a fitness and health expert these days, and certainly is a fitness/health celebrity. She does have some professional knowledge/experience that's relevant to questions of weight management and health. In that context, it isn't surprising that interviewers would ask her opinion about something like this, or that she would express concern (that might actually be sincere concern, I don't know) about Lizzo's future health. (That, once pushed, she'd express that in a brash way is completely unsurprising.)
I like Lizzo's music in a casual way, and support her right to be the woman she chooses to be, including bodyweight and her sense of self-value/beauty, as long as it doesn't harm others. I don't personally care for JM, and I do think the interviewers in this case are way more about fanning controversy for reasons of clickbait, and not at all about eliciting useful, thoughtful, expert information for the benefit of readers. That seems reprehensible to me, though I understand what might motivate them to do it. It blows my mind that we would be manipulated by something so transparent, frankly.
And I really, really don't understand why people are interested in this kind of pointless faux controversy - how it helps improve our individual sense of well-being, or ability to live a rewarding life. But it does seem to be "important" in some mysterious cultural way. Meh.
:flowerforyou: to all.
My (personal) takeaway is that me saying "Hey, I like my body" (in the context of a society that frequently tells people, and arguably women in particular, that we shouldn't like our bodies unless we fit in a very specific box as relates to weight, skin tone, age, etc) isn't necessarily an open invitation for people to respond with the reasons why they don't like our bodies.
So I understand that Lizzo may have started the conversation about herself, but that wasn't necessarily an invitation on her part for others to join the conversation by explaining why her feelings about herself are wrong.
I admit this is difficult for me to necessarily discuss dispassionately because it's very hard for me to think about what it must feel to have one's body be the source of public debates and criticisms in this way. Could Lizzo keep it from happening (or at least some of it) by being quiet about how she likes herself (or aspires to like herself)?
Part of this is that I read Lizzo's comments not as an unprompted statement of self-love, but as a specific response to how the world talks to/about women who look like her. So I don't think Michaels is entited to respond however she wants (I am not reading your comments as an argument saying that, btw).
Indeed, I'm in complete agreement with you. (And probably should have said I didn't consider Lizzo talking about it to be an invitation to criticism, just that it was a little more understandable (not defensible) in her case why people would comment in reaction. We say stuff, other people say stuff back: Common communication model.
My main point is: Why should we care? Why should we spread and happily chew over this kind of stuff? These are not our neighbors, not our friends, not actual people most of us know as full and nuanced human beings (though they are that in real life), not people we seem to me to be entitled to opinions about (unrelated to tastes/preferences/technical stuff about their professional output, anyway) in part because our opinions will be likely to be more manipulated (by the clickbaiters) than fact-based.
OP, this is completely a joke, and meant kindly, but . . . are you a publicist for Lizzo or JM?
Not to OP, but in general: In what way do our manipulated, poorly-informed opinions on this have meaning or value? (I guess it helps us know each other better, but lots of topics can accomplish that).
(/cranky old lady)
To be clear, I'm not involved in publicity or media at all.
I care, to the extent I do, because conversations like this make me think about how I would feel if someone was treating my body like a subject for public discussion in that way. So I can't help identifying with Lizzo or anybody who is being treated more like a public policy or health problem than an actual person (obviously I can help it, I just don't feel like it).
I see a big difference between a more general "Hey, here are some of the health problems that are associated with obesity" in a public policy debate and a pop culture take of "Lizzo, this particular person, is going to get diabetes and she needs to like herself less" (obviously a crude paraphrasing of the comments actually made).
Why should you care? I don't think you should and I'm not looking to convince anyone that they should pay any more attention to this than they want to. I have no doubt there are things that rub you the wrong way that I wouldn't notice at all. Does that make me a worse person than you? No (any worseness of mine is due to completely independent reasons!).
I'm not even arguing that Michaels should face any consequences for what she said. I already wasn't an audience or consumer of hers and that is going to continue. People that like her are going to continue to like her and I'm not even arguing that they shouldn't. Is this going to move the needle at all on public opinion of her? I doubt it. It's not like her thoughts about obese people were hidden. That "I have disdain for obese people for their own good" thing is her well-honed brand.5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Having heard Lizzo interviewed, she does "celebrate her body", and includes some appearance-related material in her lyrics. I'm not at all saying she shouldn't do either of those things; they're fine. But they do put appearance questions on the table, in contrast to some other musicians who do their musical thing without reference to weight/appearance (but who are also criticized publically for their appearance, of course 🙄😬).
Jillian Michaels seems to be what passes for a fitness and health expert these days, and certainly is a fitness/health celebrity. She does have some professional knowledge/experience that's relevant to questions of weight management and health. In that context, it isn't surprising that interviewers would ask her opinion about something like this, or that she would express concern (that might actually be sincere concern, I don't know) about Lizzo's future health. (That, once pushed, she'd express that in a brash way is completely unsurprising.)
I like Lizzo's music in a casual way, and support her right to be the woman she chooses to be, including bodyweight and her sense of self-value/beauty, as long as it doesn't harm others. I don't personally care for JM, and I do think the interviewers in this case are way more about fanning controversy for reasons of clickbait, and not at all about eliciting useful, thoughtful, expert information for the benefit of readers. That seems reprehensible to me, though I understand what might motivate them to do it. It blows my mind that we would be manipulated by something so transparent, frankly.
And I really, really don't understand why people are interested in this kind of pointless faux controversy - how it helps improve our individual sense of well-being, or ability to live a rewarding life. But it does seem to be "important" in some mysterious cultural way. Meh.
:flowerforyou: to all.
My (personal) takeaway is that me saying "Hey, I like my body" (in the context of a society that frequently tells people, and arguably women in particular, that we shouldn't like our bodies unless we fit in a very specific box as relates to weight, skin tone, age, etc) isn't necessarily an open invitation for people to respond with the reasons why they don't like our bodies.
So I understand that Lizzo may have started the conversation about herself, but that wasn't necessarily an invitation on her part for others to join the conversation by explaining why her feelings about herself are wrong.
I admit this is difficult for me to necessarily discuss dispassionately because it's very hard for me to think about what it must feel to have one's body be the source of public debates and criticisms in this way. Could Lizzo keep it from happening (or at least some of it) by being quiet about how she likes herself (or aspires to like herself)?
Part of this is that I read Lizzo's comments not as an unprompted statement of self-love, but as a specific response to how the world talks to/about women who look like her. So I don't think Michaels is entited to respond however she wants (I am not reading your comments as an argument saying that, btw).
Indeed, I'm in complete agreement with you. (And probably should have said I didn't consider Lizzo talking about it to be an invitation to criticism, just that it was a little more understandable (not defensible) in her case why people would comment in reaction. We say stuff, other people say stuff back: Common communication model.
My main point is: Why should we care? Why should we spread and happily chew over this kind of stuff? These are not our neighbors, not our friends, not actual people most of us know as full and nuanced human beings (though they are that in real life), not people we seem to me to be entitled to opinions about (unrelated to tastes/preferences/technical stuff about their professional output, anyway) in part because our opinions will be likely to be more manipulated (by the clickbaiters) than fact-based.
OP, this is completely a joke, and meant kindly, but . . . are you a publicist for Lizzo or JM?
Not to OP, but in general: In what way do our manipulated, poorly-informed opinions on this have meaning or value? (I guess it helps us know each other better, but lots of topics can accomplish that).
(/cranky old lady)
To be clear, I'm not involved in publicity or media at all.
I care, to the extent I do, because conversations like this make me think about how I would feel if someone was treating my body like a subject for public discussion in that way. So I can't help identifying with Lizzo or anybody who is being treated more like a public policy or health problem than an actual person (obviously I can help it, I just don't feel like it).
I see a big difference between a more general "Hey, here are some of the health problems that are associated with obesity" in a public policy debate and a pop culture take of "Lizzo, this particular person, is going to get diabetes and she needs to like herself less" (obviously a crude paraphrasing of the comments actually made).
Why should you care? I don't think you should and I'm not looking to convince anyone that they should pay any more attention to this than they want to. I have no doubt there are things that rub you the wrong way that I wouldn't notice at all. Does that make me a worse person than you? No (any worseness of mine is due to completely independent reasons!).
I'm not even arguing that Michaels should face any consequences for what she said. I already wasn't an audience or consumer of hers and that is going to continue. People that like her are going to continue to like her and I'm not even arguing that they shouldn't. Is this going to move the needle at all on public opinion of her? I doubt it. It's not like her thoughts about obese people were hidden. That "I have disdain for obese people for their own good" thing is her well-honed brand.
To bolded #1: Sure, that makes sense to me. But that's part of why I question this kind of conversation, which seems like it may fan those kind of flames in a culture sense, even though it's a conversation about the celebrities' remarks, rather than a conversation that inherently makes similar remarks. (It does tend to make people in this kind of conversation underscore one "side" or the other, I think.)
To bolded #2: If there was an implication of that, in what I said, I apologize. I have no platform for suggesting other people are worse than me (unless they're literally like that Godwin's-Law trigger dude ), or feeling like I'm better than anyone. I hope expressing an opinion about the meta of the conversation doesn't create the impression that I think otherwise.
Culturally, I think it can be better to ignore certain kinds of nonsense, vs. critique it, though that's a pretty nuanced kind of thing. The clickbaiters don't create culture, though they sort of push it along, often quite strongly. In a meaningful sense, we collectively create culture, I think. If the clickbait-slingers are the wind, and we are the waves, buffetted around, that's one thing; if we increase the winds' force, that's another. The difference is of course subtle and arguable.3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Having heard Lizzo interviewed, she does "celebrate her body", and includes some appearance-related material in her lyrics. I'm not at all saying she shouldn't do either of those things; they're fine. But they do put appearance questions on the table, in contrast to some other musicians who do their musical thing without reference to weight/appearance (but who are also criticized publically for their appearance, of course 🙄😬).
Jillian Michaels seems to be what passes for a fitness and health expert these days, and certainly is a fitness/health celebrity. She does have some professional knowledge/experience that's relevant to questions of weight management and health. In that context, it isn't surprising that interviewers would ask her opinion about something like this, or that she would express concern (that might actually be sincere concern, I don't know) about Lizzo's future health. (That, once pushed, she'd express that in a brash way is completely unsurprising.)
I like Lizzo's music in a casual way, and support her right to be the woman she chooses to be, including bodyweight and her sense of self-value/beauty, as long as it doesn't harm others. I don't personally care for JM, and I do think the interviewers in this case are way more about fanning controversy for reasons of clickbait, and not at all about eliciting useful, thoughtful, expert information for the benefit of readers. That seems reprehensible to me, though I understand what might motivate them to do it. It blows my mind that we would be manipulated by something so transparent, frankly.
And I really, really don't understand why people are interested in this kind of pointless faux controversy - how it helps improve our individual sense of well-being, or ability to live a rewarding life. But it does seem to be "important" in some mysterious cultural way. Meh.
:flowerforyou: to all.
My (personal) takeaway is that me saying "Hey, I like my body" (in the context of a society that frequently tells people, and arguably women in particular, that we shouldn't like our bodies unless we fit in a very specific box as relates to weight, skin tone, age, etc) isn't necessarily an open invitation for people to respond with the reasons why they don't like our bodies.
So I understand that Lizzo may have started the conversation about herself, but that wasn't necessarily an invitation on her part for others to join the conversation by explaining why her feelings about herself are wrong.
I admit this is difficult for me to necessarily discuss dispassionately because it's very hard for me to think about what it must feel to have one's body be the source of public debates and criticisms in this way. Could Lizzo keep it from happening (or at least some of it) by being quiet about how she likes herself (or aspires to like herself)?
Part of this is that I read Lizzo's comments not as an unprompted statement of self-love, but as a specific response to how the world talks to/about women who look like her. So I don't think Michaels is entited to respond however she wants (I am not reading your comments as an argument saying that, btw).
I again just basically wanted to second what you are saying Obese women in the public eye get a lot of nasty comments about their appearance regardless of how they dress or what they say. If they defend themselves to those comments by speaking positively about their body, then they are promoting obesity. If they lose weight (like Adele) then they are criticized for looking too thin, or from other corners for forsaking their overweight fans. Honestly, it's the same crap most famous women put up with. That can be seen in some of the crass comments made about Michaels' appearance included in many criticisms of her criticism <sigh>.
People shouldn't have trolled Lizzo online about her weight. The reporter shouldn't have tried to profit off that trolling by asking Michaels about it. Jillian should have deflected it rather than seem to be piling on.
It's possible to be glad a celebrity is living the hell out of their lives while overweight, while at the same time hoping they eventually lose the weight so they'll be healthier, all while never making a public judgement. Which I guess we all just jumped into headlong, whoops7 -
So I’m just wondering, why are a 7 and 10 year old listening to her?3
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janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Having heard Lizzo interviewed, she does "celebrate her body", and includes some appearance-related material in her lyrics. I'm not at all saying she shouldn't do either of those things; they're fine. But they do put appearance questions on the table, in contrast to some other musicians who do their musical thing without reference to weight/appearance (but who are also criticized publically for their appearance, of course 🙄😬).
Jillian Michaels seems to be what passes for a fitness and health expert these days, and certainly is a fitness/health celebrity. She does have some professional knowledge/experience that's relevant to questions of weight management and health. In that context, it isn't surprising that interviewers would ask her opinion about something like this, or that she would express concern (that might actually be sincere concern, I don't know) about Lizzo's future health. (That, once pushed, she'd express that in a brash way is completely unsurprising.)
I like Lizzo's music in a casual way, and support her right to be the woman she chooses to be, including bodyweight and her sense of self-value/beauty, as long as it doesn't harm others. I don't personally care for JM, and I do think the interviewers in this case are way more about fanning controversy for reasons of clickbait, and not at all about eliciting useful, thoughtful, expert information for the benefit of readers. That seems reprehensible to me, though I understand what might motivate them to do it. It blows my mind that we would be manipulated by something so transparent, frankly.
And I really, really don't understand why people are interested in this kind of pointless faux controversy - how it helps improve our individual sense of well-being, or ability to live a rewarding life. But it does seem to be "important" in some mysterious cultural way. Meh.
:flowerforyou: to all.
My (personal) takeaway is that me saying "Hey, I like my body" (in the context of a society that frequently tells people, and arguably women in particular, that we shouldn't like our bodies unless we fit in a very specific box as relates to weight, skin tone, age, etc) isn't necessarily an open invitation for people to respond with the reasons why they don't like our bodies.
So I understand that Lizzo may have started the conversation about herself, but that wasn't necessarily an invitation on her part for others to join the conversation by explaining why her feelings about herself are wrong.
I admit this is difficult for me to necessarily discuss dispassionately because it's very hard for me to think about what it must feel to have one's body be the source of public debates and criticisms in this way. Could Lizzo keep it from happening (or at least some of it) by being quiet about how she likes herself (or aspires to like herself)?
Part of this is that I read Lizzo's comments not as an unprompted statement of self-love, but as a specific response to how the world talks to/about women who look like her. So I don't think Michaels is entited to respond however she wants (I am not reading your comments as an argument saying that, btw).
Indeed, I'm in complete agreement with you. (And probably should have said I didn't consider Lizzo talking about it to be an invitation to criticism, just that it was a little more understandable (not defensible) in her case why people would comment in reaction. We say stuff, other people say stuff back: Common communication model.
My main point is: Why should we care? Why should we spread and happily chew over this kind of stuff? These are not our neighbors, not our friends, not actual people most of us know as full and nuanced human beings (though they are that in real life), not people we seem to me to be entitled to opinions about (unrelated to tastes/preferences/technical stuff about their professional output, anyway) in part because our opinions will be likely to be more manipulated (by the clickbaiters) than fact-based.
OP, this is completely a joke, and meant kindly, but . . . are you a publicist for Lizzo or JM?
Not to OP, but in general: In what way do our manipulated, poorly-informed opinions on this have meaning or value? (I guess it helps us know each other better, but lots of topics can accomplish that).
(/cranky old lady)
To be clear, I'm not involved in publicity or media at all.
I care, to the extent I do, because conversations like this make me think about how I would feel if someone was treating my body like a subject for public discussion in that way. So I can't help identifying with Lizzo or anybody who is being treated more like a public policy or health problem than an actual person (obviously I can help it, I just don't feel like it).
I see a big difference between a more general "Hey, here are some of the health problems that are associated with obesity" in a public policy debate and a pop culture take of "Lizzo, this particular person, is going to get diabetes and she needs to like herself less" (obviously a crude paraphrasing of the comments actually made).
Why should you care? I don't think you should and I'm not looking to convince anyone that they should pay any more attention to this than they want to. I have no doubt there are things that rub you the wrong way that I wouldn't notice at all. Does that make me a worse person than you? No (any worseness of mine is due to completely independent reasons!).
I'm not even arguing that Michaels should face any consequences for what she said. I already wasn't an audience or consumer of hers and that is going to continue. People that like her are going to continue to like her and I'm not even arguing that they shouldn't. Is this going to move the needle at all on public opinion of her? I doubt it. It's not like her thoughts about obese people were hidden. That "I have disdain for obese people for their own good" thing is her well-honed brand.
To bolded #1: Sure, that makes sense to me. But that's part of why I question this kind of conversation, which seems like it may fan those kind of flames in a culture sense, even though it's a conversation about the celebrities' remarks, rather than a conversation that inherently makes similar remarks. (It does tend to make people in this kind of conversation underscore one "side" or the other, I think.)
To bolded #2: If there was an implication of that, in what I said, I apologize. I have no platform for suggesting other people are worse than me (unless they're literally like that Godwin's-Law trigger dude ), or feeling like I'm better than anyone. I hope expressing an opinion about the meta of the conversation doesn't create the impression that I think otherwise.
Culturally, I think it can be better to ignore certain kinds of nonsense, vs. critique it, though that's a pretty nuanced kind of thing. The clickbaiters don't create culture, though they sort of push it along, often quite strongly. In a meaningful sense, we collectively create culture, I think. If the clickbait-slingers are the wind, and we are the waves, buffetted around, that's one thing; if we increase the winds' force, that's another. The difference is of course subtle and arguable.
To bolded two: I was stating that I don't consider myself a better person because I didn't like Michaels' comments and someone else doesn't see a problem with them. I didn't think you thought I was *worse*. I think this is a situation where someone can be bothered or un-bothered without us being able to draw particular conclusions about them.
I can certainly understand the point that this is the type of thing we might be better off ignoring, but that said . . . I'm not inclined to ignore it. That's due to the previously stated fact that it does strike an emotional chord for me. I just feel empathy for Lizzo here (while also recognizing that she doesn't particularly *need* my empathy and is doing fine).4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Having heard Lizzo interviewed, she does "celebrate her body", and includes some appearance-related material in her lyrics. I'm not at all saying she shouldn't do either of those things; they're fine. But they do put appearance questions on the table, in contrast to some other musicians who do their musical thing without reference to weight/appearance (but who are also criticized publically for their appearance, of course 🙄😬).
Jillian Michaels seems to be what passes for a fitness and health expert these days, and certainly is a fitness/health celebrity. She does have some professional knowledge/experience that's relevant to questions of weight management and health. In that context, it isn't surprising that interviewers would ask her opinion about something like this, or that she would express concern (that might actually be sincere concern, I don't know) about Lizzo's future health. (That, once pushed, she'd express that in a brash way is completely unsurprising.)
I like Lizzo's music in a casual way, and support her right to be the woman she chooses to be, including bodyweight and her sense of self-value/beauty, as long as it doesn't harm others. I don't personally care for JM, and I do think the interviewers in this case are way more about fanning controversy for reasons of clickbait, and not at all about eliciting useful, thoughtful, expert information for the benefit of readers. That seems reprehensible to me, though I understand what might motivate them to do it. It blows my mind that we would be manipulated by something so transparent, frankly.
And I really, really don't understand why people are interested in this kind of pointless faux controversy - how it helps improve our individual sense of well-being, or ability to live a rewarding life. But it does seem to be "important" in some mysterious cultural way. Meh.
:flowerforyou: to all.
My (personal) takeaway is that me saying "Hey, I like my body" (in the context of a society that frequently tells people, and arguably women in particular, that we shouldn't like our bodies unless we fit in a very specific box as relates to weight, skin tone, age, etc) isn't necessarily an open invitation for people to respond with the reasons why they don't like our bodies.
So I understand that Lizzo may have started the conversation about herself, but that wasn't necessarily an invitation on her part for others to join the conversation by explaining why her feelings about herself are wrong.
I admit this is difficult for me to necessarily discuss dispassionately because it's very hard for me to think about what it must feel to have one's body be the source of public debates and criticisms in this way. Could Lizzo keep it from happening (or at least some of it) by being quiet about how she likes herself (or aspires to like herself)?
Part of this is that I read Lizzo's comments not as an unprompted statement of self-love, but as a specific response to how the world talks to/about women who look like her. So I don't think Michaels is entited to respond however she wants (I am not reading your comments as an argument saying that, btw).
I again just basically wanted to second what you are saying Obese women in the public eye get a lot of nasty comments about their appearance regardless of how they dress or what they say. If they defend themselves to those comments by speaking positively about their body, then they are promoting obesity. If they lose weight (like Adele) then they are criticized for looking too thin, or from other corners for forsaking their overweight fans. Honestly, it's the same crap most famous women put up with. That can be seen in some of the crass comments made about Michaels' appearance included in many criticisms of her criticism <sigh>.
People shouldn't have trolled Lizzo online about her weight. The reporter shouldn't have tried to profit off that trolling by asking Michaels about it. Jillian should have deflected it rather than seem to be piling on.
It's possible to be glad a celebrity is living the hell out of their lives while overweight, while at the same time hoping they eventually lose the weight so they'll be healthier, all while never making a public judgement. Which I guess we all just jumped into headlong, whoops
Yes, famous women can't choose not to not have people criticize their bodies. It's up to them whether or not they participate in the conversation. I can't fault Lizzo for choosing to participate in the conversation about her body.
I fully support women choosing to lose weight. I also don't expect women to hate themselves or dislike their bodies if they're choosing not to lose weight in a particular moment. I'm guessing that Lizzo knows as much about the health risks of obesity as I do. She doesn't *need* to be reminded constantly of something she's apparently choosing not to act on, just I don't need to be reminded of health risks I'm currently choosing to disregard or not act on. The part of the conversation that is like "but Lizzo (or other fat people) NEED TO KNOW," I'm not sure what people think they don't already know.
Someone who is fat is fat. I don't *need* them to be unhappy and fat just to validate my own decision not to be fat. I can't help but feel that is an element for some people here (to be clear: not anyone in this thread, but some of the people who criticize Lizzo). They're not bothered by her fatness, but by the combination of the fatness with the happiness. There's this perception that people are going to DECIDE to be fat because Lizzo is fat and apparently happy with it. I'm not convinced that is a reasonable concern.
And I agree, people who respond to this by criticizing what Michaels looks like are completely part of the problem.8 -
corinasue1143 wrote: »So I’m just wondering, why are a 7 and 10 year old listening to her?
Because she's a successful pop star whose songs are played on the radio?9 -
Ummm. My 4 year old loves the song Truth Hurts. But we aren't here to discuss anyone's parenting are we.7
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Everyone (or nearly everyone) loves Jennifer Hudson. Nearly everyone loves Oprah. Most love James Cordan. These are people that have, currently or in the past, struggled with weight. Most on here have as well! That's why we're here.
What the public has a problem with, in general, is someone claiming "I'm perfect just how I am", when in reality they are a perfect storm physically. There's nothing wrong with admitting that you have a weight problem and working on it. No one gets ripped for that, except by idiots that shouldn't matter. It's when someone, who could be considered a role model for some denies everything we currently know about human health, it's problematic. JM is a loudmouth, fat shaming "trainer". That's how she got famous. What do people expect out of her?
Being obese in the public eye would be incredibly difficult, so I feel for anyone in that position and the pressure they must feel. But when they declare that they are "healthy" or perfect physically, they should know they are making their own situation worse. People will be mean and nasty. No sense in giving them more ammunition.6 -
I don't keep up to date with what celebrities are doing or saying, but has Lizzo ever come out and say "I am perfectly healthy just the way I am." ?? I was under the impression it was more of a "I love myself" which everyone should regardless of their weight.15
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I don't keep up to date with what celebrities are doing or saying, but has Lizzo ever come out and say "I am perfectly healthy just the way I am." ?? I was under the impression it was more of a "I love myself" which everyone should regardless of their weight.
That's my impression as well: That she thinks it's good to be happy in the body she has, and find it sexy, and that she's struggled to reach that attitude after many years when others disparaged her for her weight . . . I don't think her aim is to encourage people to be overweight. (She has been quoted as saying she feels healthy.)
This harkens back to something earlier in the thread (that I didn't say, BTW): That things get twisted to the point where being fat and happy is somehow treated as transgressive. Once people harshly criticize a celebrity over weight (or weight + happiness), I don't think it's realistic to ask that celebrity not to snap back in some way. And I don't think that snap-back needs to be "it is bad and unhealthy that I'm fat, but I'm happy anyway".6 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »Everyone (or nearly everyone) loves Jennifer Hudson. Nearly everyone loves Oprah. Most love James Cordan. These are people that have, currently or in the past, struggled with weight. Most on here have as well! That's why we're here.
What the public has a problem with, in general, is someone claiming "I'm perfect just how I am", when in reality they are a perfect storm physically. There's nothing wrong with admitting that you have a weight problem and working on it. No one gets ripped for that, except by idiots that shouldn't matter. It's when someone, who could be considered a role model for some denies everything we currently know about human health, it's problematic. JM is a loudmouth, fat shaming "trainer". That's how she got famous. What do people expect out of her?
Being obese in the public eye would be incredibly difficult, so I feel for anyone in that position and the pressure they must feel. But when they declare that they are "healthy" or perfect physically, they should know they are making their own situation worse. People will be mean and nasty. No sense in giving them more ammunition.
Why does Lizzo have to publicly perform distress about her weight for us? Why can't she have access to the same range of self-affirmations that a thin singer would? I would argue that nobody can reasonably conclude that she is declaring her actual perfection. "I'm perfect just as I am" is an anodyne statement in most hands, declaring it off-limit to the fat but open to others seems suspect.
So we're in a weird space here. Either you would insist that anyone making a pretty benign statement of self-acceptance immediately qualify it by stating their flaws or you're saying that these kind of statements are only for those within certain weight limits.
10 -
Regarding Lizzo... Lizzo rubs her body in people's faces in a way that seems like a PR stunt. As an example just google Lizzo Lakers and warning what she did at the Lakers game is NSFW. Lizzo does the same thing other celebs do but she is appealing to a different demographic so she is using a different tool.
I interpret JM as saying Lizzo should not be defined by and should not get value by her body but more so by her singing. While it doesn't objectify via reduction to Lizzo's body, it is wrong also.
IMO the saddest thing about this and most movements is companies & celebs are telling people what emotions are ok to feel - and now we should only feel positive emotions about our bodies. It should be ok to feel all emotions about our bodies because we are human, our self worth and value is not based on external changeable factors but on the sole fact we are human.
She's literally just inhabiting her body.
I don't get the logic of saying "She's doing the same thing other celebrities do" and then declaring that she's "rubbing our faces in it" and "using a different tool."
It's a body. That some of us respond differently to her body doing it than we would to another body doing it is about *us*, not about her.
10 -
So. I like Jillian Michaels. I like Lizzo. I like what they both bring to the world.
I don't know Lizzo personally - but if I had to make a guess, she is probably like an awful lot of us, wishing to be thinner/smaller/fitter, whatever and finding a lot of barriers to doing so - maybe it's time, maybe it's motivation, maybe she is a binge eater...maybe a lot of things. I say ALL those things, and have always said all those things. the heaviest I've ever been is 238 lbs (non pregnant). I've been as small as 160 (in my much younger years). Even at my favorite weight - 180, I'm still "big". What I take from Lizzo's brand of body positivity isn't "tell me how healthy it is to be obese". I don't think anybody is saying that. I think what she is trying to put out there is more like - "listen, this is what my body is right now, and I've decided to love it unconditionally". And those are NOT the same things. She is probably pretty healthy - I've been a healthy fat person pretty much my entire adult life - but even so, I KNOW (and so does every other fat person) that I continue to put myself at risk for health problems as I get older, even though I have been lucky so far. It's problematic to think that we need to be told that - we don't. We already know, and everybody has their own reasons for continuing to gain or to not lose weight.
I love what Lizzo does - I love that she is unapologetic about her body and what it is, and that she loves herself. I am envious. And I love that there are people out there publicly saying that they also love her body, and being publicly attracted to her. I wish to god I would have seen something like that when I was a teenager and thought that nobody was ever going to want to date me because of my weight. I would have loved to have had somebody visibly saying - hey, this is what the skinny girls wear...and you know what? So do I. Because I love it and that's what matters to me. It probably would have saved me years of crying about why I couldn't find clothes that I liked.
Would it have ever convinced me that there was a way to be obese and maintain good health permanently? No - because I do feel like it's a bit of a ticking time bomb - you're healthy until youre not, which is true for everybody. At my healthiest, 180 lbs, still overweight, I was running half marathons and working out harder and more than almost any thin person I knew - i WAS healthy. But would I always be? I have literally no idea. And because I'm no dense, and nor is Lizzo...I bet she already knows that and doesn't need to be told. But is gonna love herself the way she is, just as much as she would love herself if she were smaller.
I also like Jillian Michaels - I like that she has made and maintained permanent changes and is committed to helping others do the same. I like her workouts. I think her point, though badly made, was not meant to be offensive, but was meant to say - hey, I like her music, I like what she does, what her body looks like doesn't matter, but I do hope that she is taking care of her health". What she did say was offensive, intentional or not.
And this Is why we should not be asking anybody their thoughts on anybody elses body9 -
Regarding Lizzo... Lizzo rubs her body in people's faces in a way that seems like a PR stunt. As an example just google Lizzo Lakers and warning what she did at the Lakers game is NSFW. Lizzo does the same thing other celebs do but she is appealing to a different demographic so she is using a different tool.
I interpret JM as saying Lizzo should not be defined by and should not get value by her body but more so by her singing. While it doesn't objectify via reduction to Lizzo's body, it is wrong also.
IMO the saddest thing about this and most movements is companies & celebs are telling people what emotions are ok to feel - and now we should only feel positive emotions about our bodies. It should be ok to feel all emotions about our bodies because we are human, our self worth and value is not based on external changeable factors but on the sole fact we are human.
Unless she made physical contact with people's faces, she is not rubbing her body in people's faces. She's just going out in the world in the body she lives in, and how other people react to that is their choice. (I don't click on NSW videos, so I don't know what she did, but since it's "the same thing other celebs do" I have to assume it's not illegal, like indecent exposure.)8 -
I just feel like- you want to have a conversation about Lizzo's body? Fine. Get an interview with Lizzo. Want to have a conversation about health/weight/etc in general? Sure. Call Jillian Michaels. I think the question was meant to tempt JM to say something negative about Lizzo. Why? Maybe because people love drama.13
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