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How a vegan diet could affect your intelligence
BeGrandLike
Posts: 184 Member
in Debate Club
I'm really curious as to what you all think of this article on vegetarianism/veganism, essential nutrients and deficiencies.
My view on it: It seems to me that it is a far, far more balanced take on the issue than the title implies. It's an in-depth look into the nutrients that are either unavailable or less available in plant based foods, and the kinds of supplementations that may be needed for people who eat plant based (or lacto-ovo vegetarian, in some cases) diets to be optimally healthy.
It also points out that right now, most people simply don't know about most of that- most people know about things like iron and B & D vitamins in terms of supplementation or paying close attention to getting enough, but most of the others are things I'd never heard of. The article DOES point out that you can supplement pretty much all of them, but also that this takes specific research and is less about popping a multivitamin than specifically taking each individual one.
And it also does point out that vegans tend to have better heart health than meat-eaters, so it's not as one-sided as it seems either.
I think it's really interesting? Despite my own complicated history with veg*nism and my personal health (tl;dr: tried many times, every time I got sick and then sicker, it sucks and also that is about MY PERSONAL INSIDES and is not a reflection on other people's experiences), I do think that making eating-more-plants-and-less-animals as accessible and healthy a thing for as many people as possible is a really good idea, and I think it's important that we are willing to leave our own ethical standpoints re eating animals to the side when it comes to looking very clearly at the ways in which eating this way affects us, and how we can move forward in a way which lets us make those choices without making compromises with our health.
I like that- and I'm really interested to see what people's takes on it are here, since it seems like there's generally a positive attitude here towards evidence-based approaches to our bodies!
My view on it: It seems to me that it is a far, far more balanced take on the issue than the title implies. It's an in-depth look into the nutrients that are either unavailable or less available in plant based foods, and the kinds of supplementations that may be needed for people who eat plant based (or lacto-ovo vegetarian, in some cases) diets to be optimally healthy.
It also points out that right now, most people simply don't know about most of that- most people know about things like iron and B & D vitamins in terms of supplementation or paying close attention to getting enough, but most of the others are things I'd never heard of. The article DOES point out that you can supplement pretty much all of them, but also that this takes specific research and is less about popping a multivitamin than specifically taking each individual one.
And it also does point out that vegans tend to have better heart health than meat-eaters, so it's not as one-sided as it seems either.
I think it's really interesting? Despite my own complicated history with veg*nism and my personal health (tl;dr: tried many times, every time I got sick and then sicker, it sucks and also that is about MY PERSONAL INSIDES and is not a reflection on other people's experiences), I do think that making eating-more-plants-and-less-animals as accessible and healthy a thing for as many people as possible is a really good idea, and I think it's important that we are willing to leave our own ethical standpoints re eating animals to the side when it comes to looking very clearly at the ways in which eating this way affects us, and how we can move forward in a way which lets us make those choices without making compromises with our health.
I like that- and I'm really interested to see what people's takes on it are here, since it seems like there's generally a positive attitude here towards evidence-based approaches to our bodies!
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I'm anemic, and when it is not controlled my brain function definitely suffers.
However, I don't think it's fair to compare impoverished Kenyan schoolchildren with vegans/vegetarians who have the resources to get the nutrients they need.
In other parts of the world, there is vast over-consumption of meat (and calories in general). Here in the US, I get three meals from a restaurant serving of steak.
Impoverished children probably do need more meat - many (most?) Americans would benefit by eating more plants.11 -
@janejellyroll @AnnPT77 thoughts?1
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kshama2001 wrote: »@janejellyroll @AnnPT77 thoughts?
Saw it the post.
Quick reaction, without fact-checking: If it's a call to action for more research, in a context where more people are adopting meatless diets, then it seems fine, even laudable (assuming the facts are as stated). If it's a call for developed-countries folks to drop veganism/vegetarianism out of deep concern, I think there's too much shell-game reasoning in there ("meat has plenty of nutrient X, plants have much less nutrient X, many omnivores are deficient in X, therefore veg*ans are at major risk" kind of reasoning - there are dots, but they don't connect). Definitely is citing some things that reasoned, sensible veg*ans are well aware of.
I suspect a bigger practical nutritional problem is people watching trendy so-called "documentaries" (that are really inaccurate advocacy propaganda) and not having even the basic understanding of nutritional factors, i.e., buying into "plants are all we need" at a wide-eyed Disney-animal level of insight, and just eating whatever, as long as it comes from plants. (Call me cynical.)
N=1, and definitely not speaking of pregnancy/child development where potential risks are different and possibly larger, but I don't perceive my IQ to be greatly crippled by 45+ years of vegetarianism - yet - based on feedback from those around me. Jane seems to be doing just fine in that department, too, from all I can see here.
It'll take some time/work to make a sensibly detailed response, and - frankly - I'm not sure I have the interest/energy. Right now, just don't have the time (appointments).6 -
kshama2001 wrote: »However, I don't think it's fair to compare impoverished Kenyan schoolchildren with vegans/vegetarians who have the resources to get the nutrients they need.
This was my immediate thought. It's similar to that study a while back that suggested that people on high carb diets worldwide had negative health consequences, but when you delved down even a little, the people in these categories were getting not only the majority of their carbs from white rice, but also most of their protein and fat from white rice -- in other words, the health issues seemed likely related to malnutrition, a lack of any kind of diet diversity, and -- most likely -- inadequate cals). Absolutely a child eating mostly rice or some other monodiet and likely struggling to get sufficient cals and protein and fat will benefit from added meat (and it's interesting there were similar results from just adding fat to the diet). It's also akin to how impoverished US kids tend to perform better when given a healthy breakfast and/or lunch.
As you note, I don't think it says much about people in the US on average, who tend to get way more protein than is necessary for health (not that I think there's anything wrong with eating extra protein).6 -
@AnnPT77 has done a good summary of some of my concerns with the article (maybe the milk and eggs are giving her an edge on me ).
I'm never going to oppose more research and I certainly support more long-term studies of vegan health, as well as studies that attempt to distinguish how the *quality* of a vegan's diet may impact their health, as there are many different ways that one can eat as a vegan. That said, the studies cited here aren't enough to make me especially concerned about my personal wellbeing. The actual evidence of cognitive decline in vegans just isn't there, just some point-a-to-point-b reasoning.
It's all well and good for people to be concerned with things like iron and D and B12, but here's the thing: these are things that we can track. I get a blood test annually, as well as a quick iron check every eight weeks when I donate blood. They aren't an issue for me (I am diligent about supplementation). Now I realize not every vegan is going to track them, but arguing against veganism for that reason seems spurious. Those efforts to argue against veganism can instead be deployed to ensuring people know that supplementation is required (for some things) and a good idea in some circumstances (for other things).
Some of the potential deficiencies don't make total sense to me. Out of a love for data, I also track on a competing website that offers micronutrient tracking. My B6 is always at least 500% to recommendation: looking at it, I'm thinking that is because I'm consuming nutritional yeast (which is fortified with it) pretty regularly and I also enjoy an occasional energy drink. But the big bowl of brussels spouts I had for lunch last week also contributed. This is just me, one vegan. Maybe it really is a legitimate risk and I'm somehow luckily making the right choices.
As far as the stuff that is less known, I think it's possible we may wind up supplementing some of these things in the future but concluding they're needed now doesn't seem to be based on sufficient evidence.
Some vegan diets are, without a doubt, insufficient. There are still too many vegans who argue that supplementation isn't necessary (or that we automatically get enough protein no matter what). But this seems kind of concern trollish because there are lots of non-vegan diets that are also insufficient. I've never seen a BBC article arguing that the non-vegan diet is a bad idea because so many non-vegans don't get enough fiber or because magnesium deficiency is a thing (it's found mostly in plants).
Am I dumber than I was ten years ago? I'd personally love to know the answer so I'm wishing I had taken some cognitive tests before I went vegan.
From a vegan point of view, the solution to this potential, as-yet-unproven problem would be to supplement, not to abandon veganism. When we have a technological solution to an ethical problem, we'd all adopt it, every single one of us (except for, I guess, cartoon villains and such). The only difference between a vegan and a non-vegan is that we see animal exploitation as an ethical issue to which we must respond. But the logic we use to advance and choose actions resulting from that conclusion is the same as non-vegans use. The experts who recommend abandoning veganism are solving the wrong problem, from my point of view. If we discovered tomorrow that optimal brain health could only be achieved by consuming a newly discovered nutrient found only in the liver of a (insert type of individual you feel a duty to not harm) but that we could also formulate it in a lab and pop a pill to get it daily, would we even debate it?10 -
There is a lot wrong with that article...
https://www.plantbasednews.org/opinion/bbc-article-veganism-affects-intelligence-outdated-data
Maybe it's just me, but on a quick read, that plantbasednews article seems relatively worse to me than the BBC one. She's skimming over some bioavailabity or nutrient subtype issues, for example. I agree that the BBC one was on the alarmist side, and not well reasoned, if its intent is to discourage plant-based eating vs. simply encourage more research. Maybe it's just me, but this one reads more like an offended rant than a well-rounded counter-argument.
(Note: I'm 45 years a vegetarian, not a shill for Big Meat.)4 -
There is a lot wrong with that article...
https://www.plantbasednews.org/opinion/bbc-article-veganism-affects-intelligence-outdated-data
Maybe it's just me, but on a quick read, that plantbasednews article seems relatively worse to me than the BBC one. She's skimming over some bioavailabity or nutrient subtype issues, for example. I agree that the BBC one was on the alarmist side, and not well reasoned, if its intent is to discourage plant-based eating vs. simply encourage more research. Maybe it's just me, but this one reads more like an offended rant than a well-rounded counter-argument.
(Note: I'm 45 years a vegetarian, not a shill for Big Meat.)
I noticed at least one questionable thing in that article -- attempting to refute the study about actual iron levels in vegan women with a study about how much iron vegan women were consuming. But we know that iron isn't identically available in all forms, so that's comparing apples to oranges. Theoretically, a vegan woman could consume enough iron -- on paper -- and still have iron levels that weren't sufficient.
I was hoping for something more robust when I clicked on that article. My hope is that the coverage of the article (I'm seeing it pretty widely discussed online amongst vegans) will lead to someone like Jack Norris (evidence-based vegan RD) to respond at some point, as he can usually be counted on for objectivity and not getting ahead of what studies actually demonstrate.
(also not shilling for Big Meat!)3 -
I think a fair thing to say is that while there may be no difference in terms of getting adequate nutrients (beyond something like B12, which needs supplementation) between a well-formulated vegan diet and a well-formulated omnivore diet that it does take more effort and education to make sure you have a well-formulated vegan diet, and that is especially true if you are eating at reduced calories. An omnivorous diet, especially one not at a deficit as with the majority of the population, is much more likely to be nutrient-sufficient without thought, although it could well be unhealthful in other ways (including ways that a vegan diet is less prone to). [I'm using vegan diet here to just mean 100% plant-based.] On the other hand, apparently the population as a whole is likely to get too little potassium and such.
The first article did seem to be really reaching to make it seem more difficult than it is, however. A variety of the things mentioned did not have backup to explain why they (or supplementation) is needed, and they are not things normally supplemented, it is true. The evidence on iron seems to be disputed -- my own suspicion is that iron deficiencies are more complex than just about food choice, since many of those who do have them need to do more than just eat more iron (and are eating as much as people who are fine). I don't notice my iron being low on 100% plant based days, so it comes down to whether not having heme iron is a loss.
Jane's point about B6 really struck me as correct too.
On the other hand, I've noticed vegan sources like that linked above do try to dismiss the challenges too easily, including by claiming (incorrectly) that omnivores are just as likely to be low on B12. (It is true that they are now recommending that people over 50 supplement whatever one's diet.)2 -
I think a fair thing to say is that while there may be no difference in terms of getting adequate nutrients (beyond something like B12, which needs supplementation) between a well-formulated vegan diet and a well-formulated omnivore diet that it does take more effort and education to make sure you have a well-formulated vegan diet, and that is especially true if you are eating at reduced calories. An omnivorous diet, especially one not at a deficit as with the majority of the population, is much more likely to be nutrient-sufficient without thought, although it could well be unhealthful in other ways (including ways that a vegan diet is less prone to). [I'm using vegan diet here to just mean 100% plant-based.] On the other hand, apparently the population as a whole is likely to get too little potassium and such.
The first article did seem to be really reaching to make it seem more difficult than it is, however. A variety of the things mentioned did not have backup to explain why they (or supplementation) is needed, and they are not things normally supplemented, it is true. The evidence on iron seems to be disputed -- my own suspicion is that iron deficiencies are more complex than just about food choice, since many of those who do have them need to do more than just eat more iron (and are eating as much as people who are fine). I don't notice my iron being low on 100% plant based days, so it comes down to whether not having heme iron is a loss.
Jane's point about B6 really struck me as correct too.
On the other hand, I've noticed vegan sources like that linked above do try to dismiss the challenges too easily, including by claiming (incorrectly) that omnivores are just as likely to be low on B12. (It is true that they are now recommending that people over 50 supplement whatever one's diet.)
Yes, my n=1 experience is that everything that is potentially challenging on a vegan diet becomes even more challenging when one is attempting to eat at a deficit.
And even if was true that non-vegans are at equal risk of B12 deficiency (to be clear: this is not supported by evidence), that doesn't mean that it isn't also of concern to vegans. I feel like there's sometimes this handwaving away of B12 because it's deeply uncomfortable to the subset of vegans who are arguing that our natural diet is plant-based (I don't attach any particular virtue to "natural," so I have no issues accepting that it's essential for vegans to supplement it or eat fortified foods).3 -
I was an avid follower of Dr. Fuhrman for years until my son was born. (A doctor that advocates for a plant centered diet and discourages meat and dairy.) He encourages those on a plant centered diet (which he believes is for optimal health) to supplement certain nutrients because they are NOT found in abundance in the diet. In that sense, it is a very healthy diet because you are void of nothing. But I always thought it was weird that in order to achieve optimal health you needed to supplement vitamins...didn't seem very natural to me. When my son was born with 5 million food allergies and my food choices for him were very limited I started discovering the wonderful world of meat. Meat is incredibly nutritious, despite my previous beliefs, and can supply an abundance of essential vitamins, amino acids and fats that children (and their brains!) need to grow. Do I believe that plants are also essential? Yes, absolutely. As many as you can get! But I realized that there is no "black and white" with food. Eat whole foods...meat, vegetables, beans, fruits, nuts, seeds...and be healthy! Everything supplies something essential. Don't eat fried foods, fast food, table sugar, high sodium, boxed food and processed crap because you won't be healthy...God gave us all of the food groups to eat for a reason.3
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I believe the BBC article is fundamentally flawed and is click bait. The statement "Going [insert diet] could make you less intelligent" is true for any diet that has nutritional deficiencies. It's not a symptom of the diet but of the deficiency. The only way to compare a vegan diet to a non-vegan is for both diets to be equal in terms of nutrition and then compare the impact on the body. Anything else is apples to oranges.
I think the challenge that the authors of the article (and those who agree with them) are making is that it may not be easy for the two diets (vegan and non-vegan) to be equal in terms of nutrition. There may be nutrients that vegans struggle to get consistently and there may be nutrients in animal products that we haven't yet identified or fully understand.
I do believe it is meaningful to understand if the average vegan is going to struggle more to get certain nutrients than the average non-vegan (assuming such mythical creatures as the "average" anyone exists). This is information that we can use to better plan our diets, so to dismiss stuff like this doesn't really help.3 -
Jennywren120 wrote: »I was an avid follower of Dr. Fuhrman for years until my son was born. (A doctor that advocates for a plant centered diet and discourages meat and dairy.) He encourages those on a plant centered diet (which he believes is for optimal health) to supplement certain nutrients because they are NOT found in abundance in the diet. In that sense, it is a very healthy diet because you are void of nothing. But I always thought it was weird that in order to achieve optimal health you needed to supplement vitamins...didn't seem very natural to me. When my son was born with 5 million food allergies and my food choices for him were very limited I started discovering the wonderful world of meat. Meat is incredibly nutritious, despite my previous beliefs, and can supply an abundance of essential vitamins, amino acids and fats that children (and their brains!) need to grow. Do I believe that plants are also essential? Yes, absolutely. As many as you can get! But I realized that there is no "black and white" with food. Eat whole foods...meat, vegetables, beans, fruits, nuts, seeds...and be healthy! Everything supplies something essential. Don't eat fried foods, fast food, table sugar, high sodium, boxed food and processed crap because you won't be healthy...God gave us all of the food groups to eat for a reason.
There's no evidence that we have to eliminate processed food in order to enjoy good health. In the blue zones, there is some consumption of processed foods (things like olive oil, corn tortillas, tofu, bread, and pickled vegetables).
We should eat an abundance of plants, but translating that into a fear of stuff that can come in boxes doesn't really make sense for the average eater.6 -
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Jennywren120 wrote: »I was an avid follower of Dr. Fuhrman for years until my son was born. (A doctor that advocates for a plant centered diet and discourages meat and dairy.) He encourages those on a plant centered diet (which he believes is for optimal health) to supplement certain nutrients because they are NOT found in abundance in the diet. In that sense, it is a very healthy diet because you are void of nothing. But I always thought it was weird that in order to achieve optimal health you needed to supplement vitamins...didn't seem very natural to me. When my son was born with 5 million food allergies and my food choices for him were very limited I started discovering the wonderful world of meat. Meat is incredibly nutritious, despite my previous beliefs, and can supply an abundance of essential vitamins, amino acids and fats that children (and their brains!) need to grow. Do I believe that plants are also essential? Yes, absolutely. As many as you can get! But I realized that there is no "black and white" with food. Eat whole foods...meat, vegetables, beans, fruits, nuts, seeds...and be healthy! Everything supplies something essential. Don't eat fried foods, fast food, table sugar, high sodium, boxed food and processed crap because you won't be healthy...God gave us all of the food groups to eat for a reason.
You contradicted yourself with the two bolded phrases. You are correct that there is no "black & white" with food. Which is why you can be healthy and eat some fried, fast, or processed food. I suspect it would be difficult to be optimally healthy eating just those foods, but even health isn't black & white. We make literally hundreds of choices in our day-to-day lives that move us slightly closer to, or slightly farther from, optimal health.
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I suspect the same holds true on the decision of whether or not to eat animal products. IMHO it's possible to eat a healthy diet eating vegetarian or omnivore, and whether or not it's more or less difficult to optimize your health eating one way or the other might have as much to do with all those other decisions, like where in the world you live, what your financial means are, where you get your food from, how mindfully you choose your meals, and myriad other factors.3 -
Jennywren120 wrote: »I was an avid follower of Dr. Fuhrman for years until my son was born. (A doctor that advocates for a plant centered diet and discourages meat and dairy.) He encourages those on a plant centered diet (which he believes is for optimal health) to supplement certain nutrients because they are NOT found in abundance in the diet. In that sense, it is a very healthy diet because you are void of nothing. But I always thought it was weird that in order to achieve optimal health you needed to supplement vitamins...didn't seem very natural to me. When my son was born with 5 million food allergies and my food choices for him were very limited I started discovering the wonderful world of meat. Meat is incredibly nutritious, despite my previous beliefs, and can supply an abundance of essential vitamins, amino acids and fats that children (and their brains!) need to grow. Do I believe that plants are also essential? Yes, absolutely. As many as you can get! But I realized that there is no "black and white" with food. Eat whole foods...meat, vegetables, beans, fruits, nuts, seeds...and be healthy! Everything supplies something essential. Don't eat fried foods, fast food, table sugar, high sodium, boxed food and processed crap because you won't be healthy...God gave us all of the food groups to eat for a reason.
You contradicted yourself with the two bolded phrases. You are correct that there is no "black & white" with food. Which is why you can be healthy and eat some fried, fast, or processed food. I suspect it would be difficult to be optimally healthy eating just those foods, but even health isn't black & white. We make literally hundreds of choices in our day-to-day lives that move us slightly closer to, or slightly farther from, optimal health.
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I suspect the same holds true on the decision of whether or not to eat animal products. IMHO it's possible to eat a healthy diet eating vegetarian or omnivore, and whether or not it's more or less difficult to optimize your health eating one way or the other might have as much to do with all those other decisions, like where in the world you live, what your financial means are, where you get your food from, how mindfully you choose your meals, and myriad other factors.
And from what we know right now, brain health also involves a host of non-dietary factors, such as physical activity, quality of sleep, minimizing stress, and staying mentally active, things that are equally doable (and probably equally failed) by vegans and non-vegans.4 -
Plants make oxygen. Animals make co2. We breathe oxygen. co2 kills you. Eating plants reduces oxygen. Eating animals reduces co2.
Save the planet, eat animals.3 -
I believe the BBC article is fundamentally flawed and is click bait. The statement "Going [insert diet] could make you less intelligent" is true for any diet that has nutritional deficiencies. It's not a symptom of the diet but of the deficiency. The only way to compare a vegan diet to a non-vegan is for both diets to be equal in terms of nutrition and then compare the impact on the body. Anything else is apples to oranges.
I agree that it's click-bait, and with most of your other contentions.
At the same time, I think articles like this may be a useful counterbalance to the ridiculously misleading so-called "documentaries" recently about the primacy of veganism, buttressed by too many vegan advocacy sources that misrepresent nutritional science.
I support people choosing fully plant-based diets, which I believe can be nutritionally adequate with no great investment of effort. I support people choosing a fully vegan way of living (plant-based plus other non-food avoidance of harm to animals). Those are admirable ethical positions, and they (IMO, as far as current nutritional science can demostrate) inherently require no nutritional deficiencies.
Currently, there's a lot of pop-junk-"veganism"** that can lead people down a primrose path to under-nutrition, by not talking plainly about making it a point to get those nutrients that can require a little more explicit thought, when only eating plants. IMO, we see the effects of that here on MFP, the starry-eyed new converts believing that (for one example) as long as you eat all and only (any) plants, you'll have a nutritionally excellent diet. Click-bait of the BBC article's nature may be helpful as counterbalance, in catching the eye of those attracted to click-bait (or its video-"documentary" equivalent).
Over many years of vegetarianism, I've seen friends - actual people I know in real life - decide to be vegetarian, not understand the nutritional implications, and have their health suffer as a consequence. That, I don't want for anyone.
I wish we lived in a world where all information sources were balanced, careful, complete, etc. But we don't. I don't love the BBC article (already said so, already said why), but I think it has to be assessed in a broader context, to some extent.
** "veganism" in quotes because some seem to be talking about diet only, not actual veganism4 -
Scottgriesser wrote: »Plants make oxygen. Animals make co2. We breathe oxygen. co2 kills you. Eating plants reduces oxygen. Eating animals reduces co2.
Save the planet, eat animals.
Stop breading animals for food in the first place, then they won't create the co2 - save the planet.3 -
kimwilding1979 wrote: »Scottgriesser wrote: »Plants make oxygen. Animals make co2. We breathe oxygen. co2 kills you. Eating plants reduces oxygen. Eating animals reduces co2.
Save the planet, eat animals.
Stop breading animals for food in the first place, then they won't create the co2 - save the planet.
and without CO2, what will trees use in photosynthesis?2 -
Scottgriesser wrote: »Plants make oxygen. Animals make co2. We breathe oxygen. co2 kills you. Eating plants reduces oxygen. Eating animals reduces co2.
Save the planet, eat animals.
Plants make CO2. I find it odd how people seem to forget that.
Almost no one gets this question right:
"If you put a plant and rat in an air tight container with no light, will the rat live longer if it shared a container with the plant, or a separate container?"
The correct answer being separate since in the dark, both will be making CO2 which will eventually suffocate the rat.
Not to mention, oxygen will also kill you in too high of concentrations.
As carnivorous or omnivorous arguments go, that one sure shouldn't persuade anyone that it is veganism impacting intelligence.4
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