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Does the fitness industry need a metoo push?
magnusthenerd
Posts: 1,207 Member
in Debate Club
So today I just came across discussion about Bret Contreras's private behavior. It kind of blew up around the time he was making childish responses to a research study that went against his love of hip thrusts to grow glutes - he responded with an article that was kind of DYEL to the researcher publishing it.
That lead to people bringing up his relationship with a fitness industry woman that he forced her to keep private. She around the same time moved out of the place they bought together, saying he was cheating, verbally abusive, physically intimidating, possible even physically abusive (grabbing rather than hitting), and gaslighting her about how he was cheating and flirting with these other women.
This is doubly bad optics as Bret's DYEL response article was published in Alan Aragon's Research Review. Alan Aragon himself has been trying to repair himself and his reputation for a few years because he had a problem with becoming drunk at conferences and making inappropriate advances.
I imagine the two of them are just a tip of an iceberg in terms of how many people (primarily men, but not just men) in the fitness industry that are probably horrible sexual harassers to worse. Does the industry need some kind of movement to bring more of this to light? How does this get navigated - fitness has the unique problems that at times, a person may need to touch rather private areas to guide movement, or assess activation, etc, and the industry is in large part based on critique other people's bodies.
That lead to people bringing up his relationship with a fitness industry woman that he forced her to keep private. She around the same time moved out of the place they bought together, saying he was cheating, verbally abusive, physically intimidating, possible even physically abusive (grabbing rather than hitting), and gaslighting her about how he was cheating and flirting with these other women.
This is doubly bad optics as Bret's DYEL response article was published in Alan Aragon's Research Review. Alan Aragon himself has been trying to repair himself and his reputation for a few years because he had a problem with becoming drunk at conferences and making inappropriate advances.
I imagine the two of them are just a tip of an iceberg in terms of how many people (primarily men, but not just men) in the fitness industry that are probably horrible sexual harassers to worse. Does the industry need some kind of movement to bring more of this to light? How does this get navigated - fitness has the unique problems that at times, a person may need to touch rather private areas to guide movement, or assess activation, etc, and the industry is in large part based on critique other people's bodies.
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Replies
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Yes, I think it does. The 2 people you reference are likely only the tip of the iceberg.5
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Couldn't you say this about all areas of business, industry, and just life?27
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Right, Novus. It's a Humans problem.11
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I agree with others, I'm not sure this is specific to the fitness industry, is it? Also, is there a danger to people for following or using programs designed by a sexist creep who is allegedly abusive to his lovers? I don't think so... maybe to the women who he trains in person, but not really. Unless they are getting intimate with him. So I guess I'm just not sure what a "me too" movement will accomplish.5
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I agree with others, I'm not sure this is specific to the fitness industry, is it? Also, is there a danger to people for following or using programs designed by a sexist creep who is allegedly abusive to his lovers? I don't think so... maybe to the women who he trains in person, but not really. Unless they are getting intimate with him. So I guess I'm just not sure what a "me too" movement will accomplish.
I think part of the issue is how it impacts an industry overall if sexism is seen as part of the "cost of working" for women who want to be in it. If leaders, mentors, and gatekeepers are expecting sexual access to women they're working with, that will influence how women work in that industry and who gives it up and leaves forever because they don't want to put up with it anymore.
So the risk isn't to the person downloading the fitness plans of an abuser, those plans are probably fine. The issue is all the plans we never get a chance to see because the women who would have created them left the industry in disgust or were never able to progress in their career because they said "no" to the wrong guy. We as fitness consumers are deprived of choice and many women are deprived of the chance to make a living in an industry that is appealing to them and that they have a talent for.27 -
Couldn't you say this about all areas of business, industry, and just life?
This^janejellyroll wrote: »I agree with others, I'm not sure this is specific to the fitness industry, is it? Also, is there a danger to people for following or using programs designed by a sexist creep who is allegedly abusive to his lovers? I don't think so... maybe to the women who he trains in person, but not really. Unless they are getting intimate with him. So I guess I'm just not sure what a "me too" movement will accomplish.
I think part of the issue is how it impacts an industry overall if sexism is seen as part of the "cost of working" for women who want to be in it. If leaders, mentors, and gatekeepers are expecting sexual access to women they're working with, that will influence how women work in that industry and who gives it up and leaves forever because they don't want to put up with it anymore.
So the risk isn't to the person downloading the fitness plans of an abuser, those plans are probably fine. The issue is all the plans we never get a chance to see because the women who would have created them left the industry in disgust or were never able to progress in their career because they said "no" to the wrong guy. We as fitness consumers are deprived of choice and many women are deprived of the chance to make a living in an industry that is appealing to them and that they have a talent for.
And this^ (applied to all areas of business & industry).5 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »So today I just came across discussion about Bret Contreras's private behavior. It kind of blew up around the time he was making childish responses to a research study that went against his love of hip thrusts to grow glutes - he responded with an article that was kind of DYEL to the researcher publishing it.
That lead to people bringing up his relationship with a fitness industry woman that he forced her to keep private. She around the same time moved out of the place they bought together, saying he was cheating, verbally abusive, physically intimidating, possible even physically abusive (grabbing rather than hitting), and gaslighting her about how he was cheating and flirting with these other women.
This is doubly bad optics as Bret's DYEL response article was published in Alan Aragon's Research Review. Alan Aragon himself has been trying to repair himself and his reputation for a few years because he had a problem with becoming drunk at conferences and making inappropriate advances.
I imagine the two of them are just a tip of an iceberg in terms of how many people (primarily men, but not just men) in the fitness industry that are probably horrible sexual harassers to worse. Does the industry need some kind of movement to bring more of this to light? How does this get navigated - fitness has the unique problems that at times, a person may need to touch rather private areas to guide movement, or assess activation, etc, and the industry is in large part based on critique other people's bodies.
Others (esp. Jane, Novus) have said what I'd express about the core of this.
Sure, egregious harassers who exploit their professional positions should be outed, and marginalized. They're bad actors, like financial advisors who embezzle. It's beyond the pale.
To the bolded, I think those "unique problems" are more apparent than real.
At extremes, responsible medical professionals rely on chaperoning. At more normal-to-fitness interactions, consent (in the moment) is pretty crucial IMO. Decades back, my late husband, a martial arts teacher, asked me for advice about useful directive or diagnostic touch, especially wrt female students. I suggested "point and ask 'may I touch you here?'" every single time. I still think that's best practice. It's just polite and respectful. The manner of asking, ideally, should assume a possible and acceptable "no" - though that's harder to achieve universally (because some students are less confident/assertive than others).
Consent: It really matters!7 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »So today I just came across discussion about Bret Contreras's private behavior. It kind of blew up around the time he was making childish responses to a research study that went against his love of hip thrusts to grow glutes - he responded with an article that was kind of DYEL to the researcher publishing it.
That lead to people bringing up his relationship with a fitness industry woman that he forced her to keep private. She around the same time moved out of the place they bought together, saying he was cheating, verbally abusive, physically intimidating, possible even physically abusive (grabbing rather than hitting), and gaslighting her about how he was cheating and flirting with these other women.
This is doubly bad optics as Bret's DYEL response article was published in Alan Aragon's Research Review. Alan Aragon himself has been trying to repair himself and his reputation for a few years because he had a problem with becoming drunk at conferences and making inappropriate advances.
I imagine the two of them are just a tip of an iceberg in terms of how many people (primarily men, but not just men) in the fitness industry that are probably horrible sexual harassers to worse. Does the industry need some kind of movement to bring more of this to light? How does this get navigated - fitness has the unique problems that at times, a person may need to touch rather private areas to guide movement, or assess activation, etc, and the industry is in large part based on critique other people's bodies.
Yoga is no stranger to this. I am a Kripalu-certified yoga teacher and also lived at the Kripalu Center in a volunteer program for a year when I was recovering from a (non-communicable) illness and leaving my marriage. This was about 6 years after the guru, Amrit Desai, had been booted for preaching abstinence while practicing adultery and long term Kripalu-ites were still scarred from this experience.
My teacher training program had us be much less touchy, and touchy in a less intimate way, then other styles of yoga.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amrit_Desai#Controversy
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I have the documentary "Bikram: Yogi, Guru, Predator" about the man who popularized hot yoga, Bikram Choudhury, in my Netflix queue.
https://www.oprahmag.com/entertainment/tv-movies/a29857796/where-is-bikram-choudhury-now-yoga-founder-netflix-documentary/
Perhaps it isn’t surprising that Choudhury escaped justice. Choudhury, whom many call the “Harvey Weinstein of Yoga,” was getting away with his behavior all along. The documentary suggests [his behavior] was an open secret in the close-knit community.5 -
Maybe I don't follow movements and so I really have no clue what it might accomplish other than outing wrong behavior and hopefully stopping future incidences.
I know I've had my share of experiences with females at the gym or when I worked at people's houses that thought it was appropriate to rub/grope my body or suggest I touch them. Very creepy.
If a "me too" type movement would help prevent others from experiencing what I have or worse...sounds more than reasonable.
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cmriverside wrote: »Right, Novus. It's a Humans problem.
What if you are inhuman like me? Lol... I have a rule, I don't speak to women unless I know them. Sexist? Yes. Care? Not really..0 -
psychod787 wrote: »cmriverside wrote: »Right, Novus. It's a Humans problem.
What if you are inhuman like me? Lol... I have a rule, I don't speak to women unless I know them. Sexist? Yes. Care? Not really..
How do you get to know them then?
I talk to women who are strangers to me all the time. The trick is to have zero sexual agenda and consider if it is appropriate at that time and/or place.
I encountered a woman yesterday at the store who was visibly distressed and in need of assistance. What she needed was not a great imposition so I helped. It would have been hard if I couldn't talk to her.
Besides you talk to strangers online all the time. It doesn't have to be that much different.11 -
psychod787 wrote: »cmriverside wrote: »Right, Novus. It's a Humans problem.
What if you are inhuman like me? Lol... I have a rule, I don't speak to women unless I know them. Sexist? Yes. Care? Not really..
How do you get to know them then?
I talk to women who are strangers to me all the time. The trick is to have zero sexual agenda and consider if it is appropriate at that time and/or place.
I encountered a woman yesterday at the store who was visibly distressed and in need of assistance. What she needed was not a great imposition so I helped. It would have been hard if I couldn't talk to her.
Besides you talk to strangers online all the time. It doesn't have to be that much different.
They will speak to me usually.... I'm inhuman, not unapproachable... lol..
I'm speaking purely at the gym.4 -
psychod787 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »cmriverside wrote: »Right, Novus. It's a Humans problem.
What if you are inhuman like me? Lol... I have a rule, I don't speak to women unless I know them. Sexist? Yes. Care? Not really..
How do you get to know them then?
I talk to women who are strangers to me all the time. The trick is to have zero sexual agenda and consider if it is appropriate at that time and/or place.
I encountered a woman yesterday at the store who was visibly distressed and in need of assistance. What she needed was not a great imposition so I helped. It would have been hard if I couldn't talk to her.
Besides you talk to strangers online all the time. It doesn't have to be that much different.
They will speak to me usually.... I'm inhuman, not unapproachable... lol..
I'm speaking purely at the gym.
That makes more sense. I see more body language I would characterize as "guarded" at the gym from men and women. It is a place the just makes some people feel more uncomfortable and stressed. I still talk to women there but it is more infrequent.4 -
The sad thing is I doubt Contreras and Aragon truly believe they've done anything wrong, deep down. Greg Nuckols, on his Facebook page, pretty much disowned Contreras not so much for his treatment of his former partner but just for being a generally not nice person. It was the straw that broke the camel's back, after he'd witnessed Contreras' treatment of homeless people and his ad hominem attacks on the authors of the study that questioned the efficacy of hip thrusts for glute development.
It seems to me that Aragon and Contreras have formed a little echo chamber of their own, where bro code counts for more than anyone else's word. As others have said, though, that's nothing new and is not unique to the gym environment.
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I see the whole gym etiquette thing as subjective to individual situations. The wider question could be - how suitable/appropriate is the gym as a place to meet people? Just like anywhere else I think it comes down to if it's warranted or not. If I make eye contact with someone I like, the type that invites me to go over and say hello - and it's in the gym, I'm gonna do it
Obviously in the gym there are lots of no nos, just like at the beach, swimming pool and everywhere else. Trick is not to do the no-no's. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being able to approach someone you like anywhere and say 'hi, I'd like to get to know you better'. It's our job as men to do that bit, that's how it works.
There's plenty wrong with ogling, creepiness and of course anything non-consensual.
As for the OP I can't comment on the people mentioned as I don't know them - have any women come forward to complain about them?0
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