Coronavirus prep
Replies
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kshama2001 wrote: »autumnblade75 wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »I am also seeing here (in Italy) advertising on TV for products, especially foods, have people wearing masks. Since there is the famous "herd mentality" then the more people that wear them--the more people will wear them. As I've mentioned our numbers keep going down. There are a few clusters, that are quickly isolated, with the majority of cases still in the North.
I am saddened by all your reports from the States. This means that you'll have to live with the fear of catching the virus much longer. I'll be leaving soon for the summer, and will report in in September. I hope to hear that the situation in the States has gotten better.
I disagree with you that we'll have to live with the fear of catching the virus longer if we don't wear masks and practice social distancing. It will all be over quicker once we've all spread the germ as far as possible. Flattening the curve was only supposed to keep us all from getting sick at once and overwhelming the health care system. I suppose it's possible that we could still have spikes that might overwhelm the system, but Even Then, the faster everyone catches it, the sooner we can stop living in fear of catching it.
Here in Massachusetts I see a very high percentage of mask/face covering wearing. (Sometimes people aren't wearing them correctly, but they do seem to be trying.)
While driving to a supermarket (where I saw 100% correct mask use), Chuck Todd of "Meet the Press" called into a local radio show and congratulated "Mask Central Massachusetts" for our great curve.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-us-cases.html#states
Other than my neighbor, who lives in fear of everything, not just the coronavirus, I don't really see a "living in fear" mentality, more of an "I don't want to catch it and this is what we are supposed to do to prevent it" attitude.
I am in Massachusetts as well and I 100% agree with this post. We wear masks here, that's it.
Somebody is not a Patriot because they refuse to wear one. They are a practice in empathy, civility and good manners.6 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »baconslave wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »The Tuscaloosa Alabama story -- students having Covid-19 parties, with a known infected person, putting money into a pot and the first one to officially "get it" gets the money -- makes me believe that we are the dumbest country in history. Sorry, there's no other way to look at it.
Went out to another outdoor concert last night, much better band this time. AZ rates are soaring. Only states worse are TX and CA, where my kids live! We went out again last night to eat and ate on a patio again.
I've resigned myself that there is no "back to normal" unless they find a vaccine for this. Or it could mutate so much that it won't be nearly as deadly. But once school is back in session, in the Fall, which I think is a terrible idea BTW, 1.5M dead doesn't seem too outrageous now. Perhaps 2M. The numbers don't lie. 5% have been infected and 130K dead. Multiply X 13. That's the point at which they say we will have herd immunity.
Our response as a country has been a pathetic combination of finger pointing, selfishness and incompetence.
Yep.
My sister lives in Houston, and I'm here in northeast TN, which is itchin' to catch up to TX. We have in this country a large population of entitled, uncaring, thoughtless, brats of widely varying ages. I have friends (30s & 40s), inlaws (60s), a 19-year-old sister-in-law, aunts and uncles (50s-70s) who are being so belligerent, selfish and ignorant. They are proof that unfortunately we can't just blame the lack of leadership of our government. Though they have certainly contributed greatly.
Totally agree. We need a national mask law with steep penalties. And strict enforcement.
With no or reduced funding for enforcement in the USA who's going to be the enforcement ?
Enforcement doesn't have to take the form of immediate physical restraint , tasering, and/or arrest. It can be in the form of consequences, such as "no-shop" lists like the "no-fly" lists airlines are saying they'll use for customers who won't wear masks. "No shirt, no shoes, no mask, no service."
How do you keep and track a "no shop list" for a Wal-Mart Supercenter, large grocery store, etc? Does the greeter ask everyone for an ID when they come to the entrance then check it to a database?
I don't know, but retailers like that seem convinced that putting people on a "no shop list" for suspected shoplifters work. I assume the list comes with photos lifted from the ubiquitous security cams. And I imagine the 7-11 clerk who was confronted by a ranting spitter won't forget her face any time soon.
ETA: Plus, I imagine that after you've found that your time shopping was wasted because the store's computers have been programmed to reject payment from you when using a credit or debit card because you're on the list, you won't bother coming back.9 -
This outrageous!!!
Woman spits on 7-Eleven counter after being asked to wear a mask
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/07/02/7-eleven-mask-incident-viral-video-spits-counter/5368869002/
She’d catch hands.... point blank. 👊 Straight up disrespectful and a health menace to boot.
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ExistingFish wrote: »
Without disputing the conclusion at all**, I'd observe that the research is influenza research. Is Covid transmitted identically (same droplet size needed in exhalates for transmission, and that sort of thing), same volume of virus bits needed to infect, same effect of environmentals (heat, light, airflow) on life of virus or other aspects that make it more/less contagious via exhalation, etc.?
I have no idea. Could be identical. Could be not identical. Just because it's a symptomatically similar disease, doesn't make the different virus have the same transmission characteristics, AFAIK.
I didn't link it because it was symptomatically similar, I did because it was a respiratory spread virus - not a bacteria (a previous thing posted was a guy looking at bacteria coming past a mask/not ) - I thought a meta-analysis of influenza spread that was on actual people getting actually ill was far closer to what you'd see with another respiratory virus.
I think masks help some, we've had some people sick, like a hairdresser, who saw customers and didn't spread it to them because they wore masks. That kind of one-on-one close contact? Yeah, I think masks will minimize that. Dentists? Yep.
Me walking down a 10ft wide aisle in a grocery store and passing you for 5 seconds without a mask? Not likely at all. I might not even exhale when I'm walking past you. I don't think masks do crap in this kind of situation. They're just a display.
Wait, are there dentists who don't ordinarily wear masks for procedures, exams, etc?! Every dentist I've been to for over half a century has worn a mask while coming in to close proximity to look into my mouth or put tools and fingers in my mouth. That's just disgusting to think there are dentists that needed the pandemic to put a barrier between their talking spittle and a patient's open mouth.8 -
Interview with an epidemiologist about the mask topic: https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent
Lots of interesting studies recapped in this, but one thing that caught my eye because it reminded of what we often see people saying about exercise and diet on MFP:The best mask is one you can wear comfortably and consistently, said Chin-Hong.
The best exercise/workout is the one you'll actually do. The best dietary plan (e.g., meal timing or macro distribution) is the one that you'll stick with and that will help you maintain your calorie goal.
edited to fix quote-nesting.7 -
ExistingFish wrote: »Interview with an epidemiologist about the mask topic: https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent
It's nice. It's a single epidemiologist though, not a study. I read the study linked. It supported the use of masks, as do I. It did not support the use of mandates, which I don't either.
It also said 80% adherence would be enough, so I again, don't think mandates are the answer. I'm fine with suggestion and recommendation. I support that. That is what my state is doing. I wear a mask where required, but I don't think poorly of those who don't. I don't think they are engaging in risky behavior.
The fear and prejudiced feelings about these things are why people are coughing on babies.
There are two epidemiologists interviewed, not one. There are by my count at least six studies linked, not one. Plus at least a couple of real world cases of infected masked individuals not passing the virus on to dozens or scores of people that they were in close contact with them.7 -
ExistingFish wrote: »Interview with an epidemiologist about the mask topic: https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent
It's nice. It's a single epidemiologist though, not a study. I read the study linked. It supported the use of masks, as do I. It did not support the use of mandates, which I don't either.
It also said 80% adherence would be enough, so I again, don't think mandates are the answer. I'm fine with suggestion and recommendation. I support that. That is what my state is doing. I wear a mask where required, but I don't think poorly of those who don't. I don't think they are engaging in risky behavior.
The fear and prejudiced feelings about these things are why people are coughing on babies.
People are coughing on babies because they are narcissistic jerks. To put it politely.10 -
ExistingFish wrote: »T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article
This article is about influenza, but influenza is very much like covid in the fact that it is a contagious respiratory disease.
Thoughts?
I'm really interested to hear the opinions on those who want to mandate face masks:
Face Mask
In our systematic review, we identified 10 RCTs that reported estimates of the effectiveness of face masks in reducing laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infections in the community from literature published during 1946–July 27, 2018. In pooled analysis, we found no significant reduction in influenza transmission with the use of face masks (RR 0.78, 95% CI 0.51–1.20; I2 = 30%, p = 0.25) (Figure 2). One study evaluated the use of masks among pilgrims from Australia during the Hajj pilgrimage and reported no major difference in the risk for laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infection in the control or mask group (33). Two studies in university settings assessed the effectiveness of face masks for primary protection by monitoring the incidence of laboratory-confirmed influenza among student hall residents for 5 months (9,10). The overall reduction in ILI or laboratory-confirmed influenza cases in the face mask group was not significant in either studies (9,10). Study designs in the 7 household studies were slightly different: 1 study provided face masks and P2 respirators for household contacts only (34), another study evaluated face mask use as a source control for infected persons only (35), and the remaining studies provided masks for the infected persons as well as their close contacts (11–13,15,17). None of the household studies reported a significant reduction in secondary laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infections in the face mask group (11–13,15,17,34,35). Most studies were underpowered because of limited sample size, and some studies also reported suboptimal adherence in the face mask group.
Disposable medical masks (also known as surgical masks) are loose-fitting devices that were designed to be worn by medical personnel to protect accidental contamination of patient wounds, and to protect the wearer against splashes or sprays of bodily fluids (36). There is limited evidence for their effectiveness in preventing influenza virus transmission either when worn by the infected person for source control or when worn by uninfected persons to reduce exposure. Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza.
I'm not sure it's the same as influenza. We know Coronavirus is spread by droplets leaving our mouth and nose, so it is logical that a mask that limits droplets will work. Is it 100%? Nope. Nobody ever said it is... but any effectiveness is worthwhile.
In fact, unless if a mask was proven to be 0% effective (not against influenza), they should be required. Even a 1% decrease in spread means more than a thousand lives saved here in the U.S. alone... so far. If you believe your personal convenience is more important than more than 1,000 lives; then just stay home.
Can you point me in the direction of the current death rate? Google seems to be failing me. I came up with 0.04%, this is all deaths - not taking into account comorbidities and stuff. I'm sure an expert could get me a better number. I'm not sure a 1% or 5% effectiveness rate would be worth mandates or enforcement. Would you take a vaccine with a 1% effectiveness rate?
People die in car crashes every year, should we make more restrictive mandates (10mph speed limits) and spend money on enforcement? It would save significantly more people from death or injury.
Don't get me wrong, I wear a mask where required. My state hasn't made a mandate and I'm glad they haven't. They've done contact tracing, people aren't picking up COVID from the gym or the restaurants. The new cases haven't gotten them there. They are getting them from their household, or from large gatherings I'm guessing where social distancing isn't enforced - like protests and other large gatherings.
Are you seriously arguing it is ok for people to die for your convenience?! Seems selfish to me.
Fear and feelings aside, we make those kinds of arguments every day. Do you know how many people die or are injured in car crashes? Do you know what decisions they have to make when they set speed limits? They know changing the limit by 5 or 10 mph saves or risks lives. They have to make that kind of decision because people have to go to places.
I don't think it's okay for people to die for my convenience, I never said that and I don't think anything I said should make you arrive at that conclusion. I'm just trying to get you to consider that these kinds of choices are made every day. Should I never get in a car and drive because there is a risk I could hit someone? No, I follow the rules and have insurance, but I take that risk to drive - as does everyone else on the road.
If I thought it was okay for people to die for my convenience, I wouldn't stop at stop signs - that's inconvenient! Who cares if I hit someone. But I do stop, because I do care.
I care about the possibility of spreading covid. I step back and allow people to walk through doorways so we aren't in it together, I stand on the 6' markings when standing in line. I don't shake hands. I use hand sanitizer when entering and leaving stores. I am okay with wearing a mask, but I don't think it is really doing anything when I wear it. I have barely been within 6' of someone for more than 15 seconds (you know, in passing). I don't think that casual contact is enough to spread covid, and from what I've heard, it isn't.
Wearing a mask isn't analagous to never driving anywhere in your car. Wearing a mask out in public is like obeying speed limits and traffic lights having insurance and maintaining your car so it passes safety inspection. All of which are mandatory in some, most, or all jurisdictions.13 -
ExistingFish wrote: »T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »cmriverside wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »Where I live, we have a Sheriff, a Deputy, and one Patrol Officer. I don't think having them running around mandating masks is a good use of their time.
You are really letting your anxiety run away with you.
Just like there is not a Deputy at every stop sign, there is not going to be a mass LEO response to a teenager at the Rite Aid not wearing a mask.
The "enforcement" as it is will fall to retailers and businesses to not serve those who are not wearing a mask. Just like dogs aren't allowed in stores, but people bring their dogs in anyway. Smoking isn't allowed at the zoo, but people smoke anyway. I don't blame stores and businesses for not being able to control this any more than they can control someone walking out with a $40 steak.
Be realistic here. C'mon.
There is a lot to be said for Social Pressure. The more people who wear masks, the more people will be self-conscious about not wearing them. Not everyone - because sociopathy and psychopathy - but we'll have to live with that or move to a tent in the woods.
But see we already have that. Without a mandate. There are posters on this thread calling for a nationwide mandate with enforcement. In the past 5 pages. That is what I think is being irrational.
We have no mandate in our state, and establishments have had the right to refuse people without masks since the shutdown started in March. What I've said, and what I'm saying - is that we don't need a mandate. We don't need law enforcement to enforce it.
I didn't realize there were still areas where businesses were powerless to deny service to non-maskers. That has been allowed here since the beginning. I think we are seeing the word "mandate" and "enforcement" different ways.
I'm going to disagree altogether and say we need a mandate yesterday. But then I'm in the crowd that doesn't pretend people with pre-existing conditions don't exist in an effort to argue that the mortality rate is too low to make it worthwhile to wear masks.
I think wearing masks is worthwhile, in certain situations. I don't think to mandate it is appropriate.
If mask-wearing is for kindness and protection of others only, it's trying to legislate morality.
If it were really about the health of people with pre-existing conditions, cigarettes and unhealthy food would need to be mandated away too.
I don't think wearing masks is not important. I think mandating wearing masks is inappropriate.
Morality is legislated constantly - and that is not just ok, it is necessary. Necessary because some people don't care about anyone else and will only do the right thing when forced. As to cigarettes, unhealthy food, etc. - there are already laws (as there should be) about smoking around other people. Most places, you can't smoke in stores, for example. The laws in place are pretty much exclusively about not harming others with poor choices. You can smoke away and harm yourself, but you can't expose me to 2nd hand smoke. Same should be true with masks. If you don't want to wear a mask in your car or home, then no problem. But when I'm trying to get some food at the store, I shouldn't have to be exposed.
I don't mind stores or places of business requiring it. That is an exchange, they have something to offer and I willingly enter into an exchange with them. There is an exchange. I can take my business elsewhere or online if I don't like the policies.
We know cigarette smoke is dangerous. You are basically assuming by breathing I'm being dangerous. That is kind of insulting for you to compare my essential to life breathing to cigarette smoke. I know I *could* be asymptomatic - they don't talk to me. Talking is what spreads it, not breathing. My breath does =/= cigarette smoke.
If you don't want to be exposed, wear a face shield with your masks, it does far more to protect the wearer than those around them. It covers your eyes. it is a waterproof barrier between things in the air around you and your face, it will protect you far better. Take some responsibility, don't shame others for not caring about you. It really isn't the responsibility of others to protect you, it's yours.
We legislate morality when it violates the constitution, nothing else. Don't kid yourself. If "morality" were really legislated, it would look like an Islamic country where Sharia law is in place. That is legislated morality. We don't legislate morality, we follow the constitution.
I don't have to talk to someone to be exposed to their germs. I just have to be picking out my bananas or trying to get a can off the top shelf or waiting at the deli for them to finish slicing my liverwurst when two unmasked individuals walk by having a conversation and making no effort to keep even two feet away from me -- something that was happening to me an average of three or four times every grocery trip until mask use inside retail establishments became mandatory.
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This outrageous!!!
Woman spits on 7-Eleven counter after being asked to wear a mask
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/07/02/7-eleven-mask-incident-viral-video-spits-counter/5368869002/
She’d catch hands.... point blank. 👊 Straight up disrespectful and a health menace to boot.
I hope she gets locked up.3 -
This outrageous!!!
Woman spits on 7-Eleven counter after being asked to wear a mask
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/07/02/7-eleven-mask-incident-viral-video-spits-counter/5368869002/
She’d catch hands.... point blank. 👊 Straight up disrespectful and a health menace to boot.
I hope she gets locked up.
Yes but would that be fair to others in the same Lock Up?8 -
Gale there is solitary.4
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lynn_glenmont wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »
Without disputing the conclusion at all**, I'd observe that the research is influenza research. Is Covid transmitted identically (same droplet size needed in exhalates for transmission, and that sort of thing), same volume of virus bits needed to infect, same effect of environmentals (heat, light, airflow) on life of virus or other aspects that make it more/less contagious via exhalation, etc.?
I have no idea. Could be identical. Could be not identical. Just because it's a symptomatically similar disease, doesn't make the different virus have the same transmission characteristics, AFAIK.
I didn't link it because it was symptomatically similar, I did because it was a respiratory spread virus - not a bacteria (a previous thing posted was a guy looking at bacteria coming past a mask/not ) - I thought a meta-analysis of influenza spread that was on actual people getting actually ill was far closer to what you'd see with another respiratory virus.
I think masks help some, we've had some people sick, like a hairdresser, who saw customers and didn't spread it to them because they wore masks. That kind of one-on-one close contact? Yeah, I think masks will minimize that. Dentists? Yep.
Me walking down a 10ft wide aisle in a grocery store and passing you for 5 seconds without a mask? Not likely at all. I might not even exhale when I'm walking past you. I don't think masks do crap in this kind of situation. They're just a display.
Wait, are there dentists who don't ordinarily wear masks for procedures, exams, etc?! Every dentist I've been to for over half a century has worn a mask while coming in to close proximity to look into my mouth or put tools and fingers in my mouth. That's just disgusting to think there are dentists that needed the pandemic to put a barrier between their talking spittle and a patient's open mouth.
Agreed. For as long as I can remember, my dentist and hygienist have been masked and gloved. If my hygienist leaves the room for any reason she puts on new gloves upon returning. I could even tell when they switched from latex gloves to nitrile because the latex ones had an unpleasant taste.
I didn't realize that there were medical professionals out there who didn't practice basic infection control.6 -
T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »I just had a thought as I smacked a mosquito on my arm and there was blood... can mosquitoes spread this?!
No, it isn't vector borne
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Honestly, it doesn't bother me when people disagree. But this isn't carried by mosquitoes.9 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »
Without disputing the conclusion at all**, I'd observe that the research is influenza research. Is Covid transmitted identically (same droplet size needed in exhalates for transmission, and that sort of thing), same volume of virus bits needed to infect, same effect of environmentals (heat, light, airflow) on life of virus or other aspects that make it more/less contagious via exhalation, etc.?
I have no idea. Could be identical. Could be not identical. Just because it's a symptomatically similar disease, doesn't make the different virus have the same transmission characteristics, AFAIK.
I didn't link it because it was symptomatically similar, I did because it was a respiratory spread virus - not a bacteria (a previous thing posted was a guy looking at bacteria coming past a mask/not ) - I thought a meta-analysis of influenza spread that was on actual people getting actually ill was far closer to what you'd see with another respiratory virus.
I think masks help some, we've had some people sick, like a hairdresser, who saw customers and didn't spread it to them because they wore masks. That kind of one-on-one close contact? Yeah, I think masks will minimize that. Dentists? Yep.
Me walking down a 10ft wide aisle in a grocery store and passing you for 5 seconds without a mask? Not likely at all. I might not even exhale when I'm walking past you. I don't think masks do crap in this kind of situation. They're just a display.
Wait, are there dentists who don't ordinarily wear masks for procedures, exams, etc?! Every dentist I've been to for over half a century has worn a mask while coming in to close proximity to look into my mouth or put tools and fingers in my mouth. That's just disgusting to think there are dentists that needed the pandemic to put a barrier between their talking spittle and a patient's open mouth.
Agreed. For as long as I can remember, my dentist and hygienist have been masked and gloved. If my hygienist leaves the room for any reason she puts on new gloves upon returning. I could even tell when they switched from latex gloves to nitrile because the latex ones had an unpleasant taste.
I didn't realize that there were medical professionals out there who didn't practice basic infection control.
I agree. I do remember in the mid to late 70s, my orthodontist did not wear gloves. Could not imagine that now. That was before HIV exploded onto the scene.1 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article
This article is about influenza, but influenza is very much like covid in the fact that it is a contagious respiratory disease.
Thoughts?
I'm really interested to hear the opinions on those who want to mandate face masks:
Face Mask
In our systematic review, we identified 10 RCTs that reported estimates of the effectiveness of face masks in reducing laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infections in the community from literature published during 1946–July 27, 2018. In pooled analysis, we found no significant reduction in influenza transmission with the use of face masks (RR 0.78, 95% CI 0.51–1.20; I2 = 30%, p = 0.25) (Figure 2). One study evaluated the use of masks among pilgrims from Australia during the Hajj pilgrimage and reported no major difference in the risk for laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infection in the control or mask group (33). Two studies in university settings assessed the effectiveness of face masks for primary protection by monitoring the incidence of laboratory-confirmed influenza among student hall residents for 5 months (9,10). The overall reduction in ILI or laboratory-confirmed influenza cases in the face mask group was not significant in either studies (9,10). Study designs in the 7 household studies were slightly different: 1 study provided face masks and P2 respirators for household contacts only (34), another study evaluated face mask use as a source control for infected persons only (35), and the remaining studies provided masks for the infected persons as well as their close contacts (11–13,15,17). None of the household studies reported a significant reduction in secondary laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infections in the face mask group (11–13,15,17,34,35). Most studies were underpowered because of limited sample size, and some studies also reported suboptimal adherence in the face mask group.
Disposable medical masks (also known as surgical masks) are loose-fitting devices that were designed to be worn by medical personnel to protect accidental contamination of patient wounds, and to protect the wearer against splashes or sprays of bodily fluids (36). There is limited evidence for their effectiveness in preventing influenza virus transmission either when worn by the infected person for source control or when worn by uninfected persons to reduce exposure. Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza.
I'm not sure it's the same as influenza. We know Coronavirus is spread by droplets leaving our mouth and nose, so it is logical that a mask that limits droplets will work. Is it 100%? Nope. Nobody ever said it is... but any effectiveness is worthwhile.
In fact, unless if a mask was proven to be 0% effective (not against influenza), they should be required. Even a 1% decrease in spread means more than a thousand lives saved here in the U.S. alone... so far. If you believe your personal convenience is more important than more than 1,000 lives; then just stay home.
Can you point me in the direction of the current death rate? Google seems to be failing me. I came up with 0.04%, this is all deaths - not taking into account comorbidities and stuff. I'm sure an expert could get me a better number. I'm not sure a 1% or 5% effectiveness rate would be worth mandates or enforcement. Would you take a vaccine with a 1% effectiveness rate?
People die in car crashes every year, should we make more restrictive mandates (10mph speed limits) and spend money on enforcement? It would save significantly more people from death or injury.
Don't get me wrong, I wear a mask where required. My state hasn't made a mandate and I'm glad they haven't. They've done contact tracing, people aren't picking up COVID from the gym or the restaurants. The new cases haven't gotten them there. They are getting them from their household, or from large gatherings I'm guessing where social distancing isn't enforced - like protests and other large gatherings.
Are you seriously arguing it is ok for people to die for your convenience?! Seems selfish to me.
Fear and feelings aside, we make those kinds of arguments every day. Do you know how many people die or are injured in car crashes? Do you know what decisions they have to make when they set speed limits? They know changing the limit by 5 or 10 mph saves or risks lives. They have to make that kind of decision because people have to go to places.
I don't think it's okay for people to die for my convenience, I never said that and I don't think anything I said should make you arrive at that conclusion. I'm just trying to get you to consider that these kinds of choices are made every day. Should I never get in a car and drive because there is a risk I could hit someone? No, I follow the rules and have insurance, but I take that risk to drive - as does everyone else on the road.
If I thought it was okay for people to die for my convenience, I wouldn't stop at stop signs - that's inconvenient! Who cares if I hit someone. But I do stop, because I do care.
I care about the possibility of spreading covid. I step back and allow people to walk through doorways so we aren't in it together, I stand on the 6' markings when standing in line. I don't shake hands. I use hand sanitizer when entering and leaving stores. I am okay with wearing a mask, but I don't think it is really doing anything when I wear it. I have barely been within 6' of someone for more than 15 seconds (you know, in passing). I don't think that casual contact is enough to spread covid, and from what I've heard, it isn't.
Wearing a mask isn't analagous to never driving anywhere in your car. Wearing a mask out in public is like obeying speed limits and traffic lights having insurance and maintaining your car so it passes safety inspection. All of which are mandatory in some, most, or all jurisdictions.
Here in my "nanny state" of MA, yearly car inspections are indeed mandatory, and have been for some time. I lived in FL for 7 years - no requirement for yearly inspections there.
First MA municipalities and then the state on May 6 required masks.
https://www.wbur.org/news/2020/05/06/massachusetts-mask-mandate-first-day
..."At first we weren't wearing them, [we were] just trying to keep distance from other people," Thomas said. "But now that [Gov. Charlie Baker] says that we all should, we feel more obligated to. And I think it makes people around you feel better and it may help a little bit."
FL has yet to enact a mask mandate.
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There have been what I consider a couple of good pieces from NPR lately about masks. Links below.
One, from yesterday, was about a couple examples of mathematical modeling suggesting materially reduced deaths nationwide in US (by many thousands), if mask usage can be increased to much higher levels nationwide. (8-minute audio, which I didn't re-listen to, but I recall as having more detail and critical discussion than the text summary has).
https://www.npr.org/2020/07/03/886905055/widespread-use-of-face-masks-could-save-tens-of-thousands-of-lives-models-projec
The second is about something I complained about earlier, the tendency for comparisons of mask types/fabrics to be technically unhelpful, i.e., not using clear technical descriptions of fabrics, not discussing fit tradeoffs. This isn't perfect, but it's quite a bit better than average.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/07/01/880621610/a-users-guide-to-masks-what-s-best-at-protecting-others-and-yourself
That one's text only.7 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »baconslave wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »The Tuscaloosa Alabama story -- students having Covid-19 parties, with a known infected person, putting money into a pot and the first one to officially "get it" gets the money -- makes me believe that we are the dumbest country in history. Sorry, there's no other way to look at it.
Went out to another outdoor concert last night, much better band this time. AZ rates are soaring. Only states worse are TX and CA, where my kids live! We went out again last night to eat and ate on a patio again.
I've resigned myself that there is no "back to normal" unless they find a vaccine for this. Or it could mutate so much that it won't be nearly as deadly. But once school is back in session, in the Fall, which I think is a terrible idea BTW, 1.5M dead doesn't seem too outrageous now. Perhaps 2M. The numbers don't lie. 5% have been infected and 130K dead. Multiply X 13. That's the point at which they say we will have herd immunity.
Our response as a country has been a pathetic combination of finger pointing, selfishness and incompetence.
Yep.
My sister lives in Houston, and I'm here in northeast TN, which is itchin' to catch up to TX. We have in this country a large population of entitled, uncaring, thoughtless, brats of widely varying ages. I have friends (30s & 40s), inlaws (60s), a 19-year-old sister-in-law, aunts and uncles (50s-70s) who are being so belligerent, selfish and ignorant. They are proof that unfortunately we can't just blame the lack of leadership of our government. Though they have certainly contributed greatly.
Totally agree. We need a national mask law with steep penalties. And strict enforcement.
With no or reduced funding for enforcement in the USA who's going to be the enforcement ?
Enforcement doesn't have to take the form of immediate physical restraint , tasering, and/or arrest. It can be in the form of consequences, such as "no-shop" lists like the "no-fly" lists airlines are saying they'll use for customers who won't wear masks. "No shirt, no shoes, no mask, no service."
How do you keep and track a "no shop list" for a Wal-Mart Supercenter, large grocery store, etc? Does the greeter ask everyone for an ID when they come to the entrance then check it to a database?
I don't know, but retailers like that seem convinced that putting people on a "no shop list" for suspected shoplifters work. I assume the list comes with photos lifted from the ubiquitous security cams. And I imagine the 7-11 clerk who was confronted by a ranting spitter won't forget her face any time soon.
ETA: Plus, I imagine that after you've found that your time shopping was wasted because the store's computers have been programmed to reject payment from you when using a credit or debit card because you're on the list, you won't bother coming back.
I worked at a big box store once. The security people would flip through those photos regularly and most of them were pretty good about recognizing someone whose face they had seen in their no-shop photos every day for months when they go through it.4 -
https://news.yahoo.com/australia-locks-down-high-rise-apartments-virus-cases-100139655.html
We know in the USA Covid-19 seems to be in control and taking we humans for wild ride. News like this from Australia and other news from China, etc indicates there is currently no stopping of the virus in its tracks but is one the world may be living with for a while.0 -
Yes, as was mentioned a page or so back, Victoria has seen a surge in new cases.
Very unfortunate as other states in Australia are all but Covid free now.3
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